[GSC] Sleep Trapping

Discussion in 'Past Gens Discussion' started by BlueHero, Sep 26, 2011.

  1. BlueHero

    BlueHero Member

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    Sleep trapping is supposed to be banned in gsc, but I faced a Gengar with Hypnosis + Mean Look on the ladder today:

    Start of turn 18
    The foe's Gengar used Hypnosis!
    Snorlax fell asleep!

    Snorlax is fast asleep!

    Start of turn 19
    The foe's Gengar used Mean Look!
    Snorlax can no longer escape!

    Snorlax is fast asleep!

    I'm guessing it was accidently unbanned or something?
     
  2. Twistedspoon

    Twistedspoon Member

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    Could you please post the whole log in
    tags. And can you post where it says it's banned from GSC, because I've had no knowledge of sleep tracking being banned. (Not saying your wrong.)
     
  3. BlueHero

    BlueHero Member

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    Sure:

    Battle between FareKnight and BlueHero started!

    Tier: GSC OU
    Mode: Singles
    Variation: +11, -21
    Rule: Rated
    Rule: Sleep Clause
    Rule: Species Clause

    BlueHero sent out Zapdos!
    FareKnight sent out Muk!

    Start of turn 1
    BlueHero called Zapdos back!
    BlueHero sent out Cloyster!

    The foe's Muk used Thunder!
    It's super effective!
    Cloyster lost 211 HP! (69% of its health)

    Cloyster restored a little HP using its Leftovers!

    Start of turn 2
    BlueHero called Cloyster back!
    BlueHero sent out Steelix!

    The foe's Muk used Thunder!
    The attack of the foe's Muk missed!

    Start of turn 3
    The foe's Muk used Fire Blast!
    It's super effective!
    Steelix lost 183 HP! (51% of its health)
    slo fade is watching the battle.

    Steelix used Earthquake!
    It's super effective!
    The foe's Muk lost 65% of its health!

    Steelix restored a little HP using its Leftovers!

    Start of turn 4
    BlueHero called Steelix back!
    BlueHero sent out Zapdos!

    The foe's Muk used Fire Blast!
    A critical hit!
    Zapdos lost 160 HP! (41% of its health)

    Zapdos restored a little HP using its Leftovers!

    Start of turn 5
    Zapdos used Thunder!
    The foe's Muk lost 34% of its health!
    The foe's Muk fainted!
    FareKnight sent out Ninetales!
    Zapdos restored a little HP using its Leftovers!

    Start of turn 6
    BlueHero called Zapdos back!
    BlueHero sent out Vaporeon!

    The foe's Ninetales used Fire Blast!
    It's not very effective...
    Vaporeon lost 69 HP! (14% of its health)

    Vaporeon restored a little HP using its Leftovers!

    Start of turn 7
    FareKnight called Ninetales back!
    FareKnight sent out Starmie!

    Vaporeon used Surf!
    It's not very effective...
    The foe's Starmie lost 21% of its health!

    The foe's Starmie restored a little HP using its Leftovers!
    Vaporeon restored a little HP using its Leftovers!

    Start of turn 8
    The foe's Starmie used Thunderbolt!
    It's super effective!
    Vaporeon lost 169 HP! (36% of its health)

    Vaporeon used Growth!
    Vaporeon's Sp. Att. rose!

    The foe's Starmie restored a little HP using its Leftovers!
    Vaporeon restored a little HP using its Leftovers!

    Start of turn 9
    The foe's Starmie used Psychic!
    Vaporeon lost 118 HP! (25% of its health)

    Vaporeon used Rest!
    Vaporeon went to sleep and became healthy!

    The foe's Starmie restored a little HP using its Leftovers!

    Start of turn 10
    The foe's Starmie used Thunderbolt!
    It's super effective!
    Vaporeon lost 151 HP! (32% of its health)

    Vaporeon is fast asleep!
    Vaporeon used Sleep Talk!
    Vaporeon used Rest!
    Vaporeon went to sleep and became healthy!

    The foe's Starmie restored a little HP using its Leftovers!

    Start of turn 11
    The foe's Starmie used Thunderbolt!
    It's super effective!
    Vaporeon lost 163 HP! (35% of its health)

    Vaporeon is fast asleep!
    Vaporeon used Sleep Talk!
    Vaporeon used Growth!
    Vaporeon's Sp. Att. rose!

    Vaporeon restored a little HP using its Leftovers!

    Start of turn 12
    The foe's Starmie used Thunderbolt!
    It's super effective!
    Vaporeon lost 147 HP! (31% of its health)

    Vaporeon is fast asleep!
    Vaporeon used Sleep Talk!
    Vaporeon used Surf!
    It's not very effective...
    The foe's Starmie lost 40% of its health!

    The foe's Starmie restored a little HP using its Leftovers!
    Vaporeon restored a little HP using its Leftovers!

    Start of turn 13
    The foe's Starmie used Thunderbolt!
    It's super effective!
    A critical hit!
    Vaporeon lost 209 HP! (45% of its health)
    Vaporeon fainted!
    BlueHero: yeah
    BlueHero: saw that coming
    BlueHero sent out Zapdos!
    The foe's Starmie restored a little HP using its Leftovers!
    Zapdos restored a little HP using its Leftovers!

    Start of turn 14
    FareKnight called Starmie back!
    FareKnight sent out Ampharos!

    Zapdos used Thunder!
    It's not very effective...
    The foe's Ampharos lost 22% of its health!

    Zapdos restored a little HP using its Leftovers!

    Start of turn 15
    BlueHero called Zapdos back!
    BlueHero sent out Snorlax!

    The foe's Ampharos used Thunder!
    The attack of the foe's Ampharos missed!

    Start of turn 16
    The foe's Ampharos used Thunder!
    The attack of the foe's Ampharos missed!

    Snorlax used Double-Edge!
    The foe's Ampharos lost 46% of its health!
    Snorlax is hit with recoil!

    Snorlax restored a little HP using its Leftovers!

    Start of turn 17
    FareKnight called Ampharos back!
    FareKnight sent out Gengar!

    Snorlax used Double-Edge!
    It had no effect!

    Snorlax restored a little HP using its Leftovers!

    Start of turn 18
    The foe's Gengar used Hypnosis!
    Snorlax fell asleep!

    Snorlax is fast asleep!

    Start of turn 19
    The foe's Gengar used Mean Look!
    Snorlax can no longer escape!

    Snorlax is fast asleep!

    BlueHero: wait what
    FareKnight: what
    BlueHero: sleep trapping is supposed to be banned isnt it
    FareKnight: no
    slo fade: it doesnt have perish song
    slo fade: prob
    slo fade: then it would be legal
    BlueHero: sleep trapping is just sleep move + trap move

    Start of turn 20
    The foe's Gengar used Dream Eater!
    Snorlax lost 82 HP! (15% of its health)
    Snorlax had its energy drained!

    Snorlax is fast asleep!

    Snorlax restored a little HP using its Leftovers!

    Start of turn 21
    The foe's Gengar used Dream Eater!
    Snorlax lost 96 HP! (18% of its health)
    Snorlax had its energy drained!

    Snorlax is fast asleep!
    Snorlax used Sleep Talk!
    Snorlax used Curse!
    Snorlax's Attack rose!
    Snorlax's Defense rose!
    Snorlax's Speed fell!

    Snorlax restored a little HP using its Leftovers!

    Start of turn 22
    The foe's Gengar used Dream Eater!
    Snorlax lost 92 HP! (17% of its health)
    Snorlax had its energy drained!

    Snorlax is fast asleep!
    Snorlax used Sleep Talk!
    Snorlax used Rest!
    Snorlax went to sleep and became healthy!

    Start of turn 23
    The foe's Gengar used Dream Eater!
    Snorlax lost 94 HP! (17% of its health)
    Snorlax had its energy drained!

    Snorlax is fast asleep!
    Snorlax used Sleep Talk!
    Snorlax used Double-Edge!
    It had no effect!

    Snorlax restored a little HP using its Leftovers!

    Start of turn 24
    The foe's Gengar used Dream Eater!
    Snorlax lost 92 HP! (17% of its health)
    Snorlax had its energy drained!

    Snorlax is fast asleep!
    Snorlax used Sleep Talk!
    Snorlax used Double-Edge!
    It had no effect!

    Snorlax restored a little HP using its Leftovers!

    Start of turn 25
    The foe's Gengar used Dream Eater!
    Snorlax lost 92 HP! (17% of its health)
    Snorlax had its energy drained!

    Snorlax woke up!
    Snorlax used Rest!
    Snorlax went to sleep and became healthy!

    Start of turn 26
    The foe's Gengar used Dream Eater!
    Snorlax lost 85 HP! (16% of its health)
    Snorlax had its energy drained!

    Snorlax is fast asleep!
    Snorlax used Sleep Talk!
    Snorlax used Curse!
    Snorlax's Attack rose!
    Snorlax's Defense rose!
    Snorlax's Speed fell!

    Snorlax restored a little HP using its Leftovers!

    Start of turn 27
    The foe's Gengar used Dream Eater!
    Snorlax lost 87 HP! (16% of its health)
    slo fade: it cant beat you anyway blue hero
    Snorlax had its energy drained!

    Snorlax is fast asleep!
    Snorlax used Sleep Talk!
    Snorlax used Curse!
    Snorlax's Attack rose!
    Snorlax's Defense rose!
    Snorlax's Speed fell!

    Snorlax restored a little HP using its Leftovers!
    BlueHero: ik
    slo fade: this is just a waste of time

    Start of turn 28
    The foe's Gengar used Dream Eater!
    Snorlax lost 84 HP! (16% of its health)
    Snorlax had its energy drained!

    Snorlax woke up!
    Snorlax used Sleep Talk!
    But it failed!

    Snorlax restored a little HP using its Leftovers!

    Start of turn 29
    The foe's Gengar used Thunder!
    Snorlax lost 105 HP! (20% of its health)

    Snorlax used Rest!
    Snorlax went to sleep and became healthy!

    slo fade: nightmare on that shit next time fareknight

    Start of turn 30
    The foe's Gengar used Dream Eater!
    Snorlax lost 85 HP! (16% of its health)
    Snorlax had its energy drained!

    Snorlax is fast asleep!
    Snorlax used Sleep Talk!
    Snorlax used Double-Edge!
    It had no effect!

    Snorlax restored a little HP using its Leftovers!

    Start of turn 31
    FareKnight called Gengar back!
    FareKnight sent out Poliwrath!

    Snorlax is fast asleep!
    Snorlax used Sleep Talk!
    Snorlax used Rest!
    Snorlax went to sleep and became healthy!

    Start of turn 32
    The foe's Poliwrath used Earthquake!
    Snorlax lost 37 HP! (7% of its health)

    Snorlax is fast asleep!
    Snorlax used Sleep Talk!
    Snorlax used Curse!
    Snorlax's Attack rose!
    Snorlax's Defense rose!
    Snorlax's Speed fell!

    Snorlax restored a little HP using its Leftovers!
    slo fade: lol

    Start of turn 33
    The foe's Poliwrath used Hydro Pump!
    Snorlax lost 125 HP! (23% of its health)

    Snorlax is fast asleep!
    Snorlax used Sleep Talk!
    Snorlax used Double-Edge!
    The foe's Poliwrath lost 100% of its health!
    Snorlax is hit with recoil!
    The foe's Poliwrath fainted!
    FareKnight sent out Ninetales!
    Snorlax restored a little HP using its Leftovers!

    Start of turn 34
    The foe's Ninetales used Hypnosis!
    Snorlax is already asleep.

    Snorlax woke up!
    Snorlax used Double-Edge!
    The foe's Ninetales lost 100% of its health!
    Snorlax is hit with recoil!
    The foe's Ninetales fainted!
    FareKnight sent out Starmie!
    The foe's Starmie restored a little HP using its Leftovers!
    Snorlax restored a little HP using its Leftovers!
    slo fade: fareknight

    Start of turn 35
    The foe's Starmie used Psychic!
    Snorlax lost 104 HP! (19% of its health)

    Snorlax used Double-Edge!
    The foe's Starmie lost 78% of its health!
    Snorlax is hit with recoil!
    The foe's Starmie fainted!
    FareKnight sent out Ampharos!
    Snorlax restored a little HP using its Leftovers!
    slo fade: use that set with curse and nightmare

    Start of turn 36
    The foe's Ampharos used Thunder!
    Snorlax lost 61 HP! (11% of its health)
    Snorlax fainted!
    slo fade: lol
    BlueHero sent out Exeggutor!

    Start of turn 37
    Exeggutor used Psychic!
    The foe's Ampharos lost 30% of its health!
    The foe's Ampharos fainted!
    FareKnight sent out Gengar!

    Start of turn 38
    The foe's Gengar used Hypnosis!
    Exeggutor fell asleep!

    Exeggutor is fast asleep!

    Start of turn 39
    The foe's Gengar used Dream Eater!
    It's not very effective...
    Exeggutor lost 58 HP! (15% of its health)
    Exeggutor had its energy drained!

    Exeggutor woke up!
    Exeggutor used Psychic!
    It's super effective!
    The foe's Gengar lost 97% of its health!

    The foe's Gengar restored a little HP using its Leftovers!
    Exeggutor restored a little HP using its Leftovers!

    Start of turn 40
    The foe's Gengar used Hypnosis!
    Exeggutor fell asleep!

    Exeggutor is fast asleep!

    The foe's Gengar restored a little HP using its Leftovers!
    Exeggutor restored a little HP using its Leftovers!

    Start of turn 41
    The foe's Gengar used Dream Eater!
    It's not very effective...
    Exeggutor lost 66 HP! (17% of its health)
    Exeggutor had its energy drained!

    Exeggutor is fast asleep!

    The foe's Gengar restored a little HP using its Leftovers!
    Exeggutor restored a little HP using its Leftovers!

    Start of turn 42
    The foe's Gengar used Dream Eater!
    It's not very effective...
    Exeggutor lost 63 HP! (17% of its health)
    Exeggutor had its energy drained!

    Exeggutor woke up!
    Exeggutor used Psychic!
    It's super effective!
    The foe's Gengar lost 40% of its health!
    The foe's Gengar fainted!

    BlueHero won the battle!
    FareKnight: Next time... [/HIDE]

    And it says it's banned here.
     
  4. zeroality

    zeroality Artificial Insanity

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    Only Hypnosis+Mean Look+Perish Song is illegal. You can have Hypnosis+Mean Look.

    I'll update the tier listing, that's what it should have said in the first place. My apologies.
     
  5. BlueHero

    BlueHero Member

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    Why is it only sleep perish trapping? I mean, what's the difference between Missy or Gengar using Hypnosis+Mean Look+Perish Song and Hypnosis+Mean Look+Curse? It gives you a good shot at getting a free kill either way.
     
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2011
  6. zeroality

    zeroality Artificial Insanity

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    Ask Borat maybe?
     
  7. BlueHero

    BlueHero Member

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    He's actually the one who said that :P (Here) And I know Jorgen has it banned in his gym. I don't see why we don't have it banned on the ladder.
     
  8. Jørgen

    Jørgen Sniper

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    I hate sleep trap. I know Borat hates sleep trap.

    It's been a contentious strat, that's for sure. However, Smogon never really officially banned it. And if you go through GSC's history, it was never really uniformly banned (though this is true of pretty much any rule if you go back to GSC's heyday, what with the lack of a community-centralizing force quite like Smogon back in the day).

    I'd much prefer a metagame where sleep + trap on the same mon is disallowed. Seriously, matches can get pretty stupid without the ban. Historically, there have been debates and "no sleep trapping" clauses put up by users and tournament organizers here and there, so there's precedent for it despite the lack of an overarching ban.
     
  9. borat

    borat Member

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    The main target is really Nightmare ML LK Jynx.

    But really, it's just the sheer logic behind the ban that makes sleep trapping ban make more sense than sleep perish trapping. The only lasting argument against sleep perish trapping is that "only luck beats it". To a lesser sense, it applies to sleep trapping in general. Furthermore, apart from hypnomissy, I feel like aforementioned Jynx is a far bigger threat than "hypnogengar" and shit like that anyway.
     
  10. Jørgen

    Jørgen Sniper

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    Hypnogengar does a lot of what Jynx does, just with the iffy Hypnosis over the more reliable LK. I'd lump him in as a somewhat inferior, but still effective, LK + ML + Nightmare Jynx, only with defensive upside due to the immunities. And Smeargle's a pretty big deal, too. Steelix gets Spider Webbed on the switch only to subsequently eat a Spore without a ban. And if you try just to attack it, well, while it gets 2HKO'd by almost everything, most things can't OHKO it, so if it gets an Agility off, welp, you just lost to Agi-boosted LK Drumlax (though that option for Smeargle should probably be banned in itself). But even without LK Drumlax, letting Smeargle pass an Agility like that is just an awful "best play" to have in that situation.

    Other than that, though, there really aren't any relevant sleep trappers. Whirpool + Sing Lapras? Yeah... stuff like that could probably slide past a sleep trap ban without much protest (without Perish Song, at least). But stuff with guaranteed, indefinite trapping moves plus a sleep move really shouldn't be allowed to have both on the same set. All of it's threatening, and the gap between Jynx and the other major users of the strat really isn't all that big, at least not imo.
     
  11. zeroality

    zeroality Artificial Insanity

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    I'm bringing this up. Not sure if there will be a change. I'll keep you guys posted.
     
  12. Lamperi

    Lamperi I see what you did there

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    The current script ban is only for PerishSong + Hypnosis + Mean Look.

    Basically, it's everybody's best interest to change this ban into "any trapping move" + "any sleeping move" ?
     
  13. borat

    borat Member

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    I dont know how I missed Smeargle. I swear it was in my mind when I was writing that post.

    But yes. Smeargle, definitely.
     
  14. zeroality

    zeroality Artificial Insanity

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    Yes. As Jorgen pointed out, Hypnogar is a lesser problem but still an existent one. It's logical to assume that other Pokemon with similar moves would also fall under this category.

    coyo has given the approval so feel free to make the change whenever you can.

    Please do VM me or something afterwards, so I can update the GSC tier article.
     
  15. borat

    borat Member

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    Why would you need to update the tier article?
     
  16. zeroality

    zeroality Artificial Insanity

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    The sticky says the ban is Sleep+Trap+Perish. OSS pasted the sticky to the wiki, so I figured it'd need to be changed.

    Looks like the article has it right though.
     
  17. Lamperi

    Lamperi I see what you did there

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    Ok implemented.
    Sleeping moves: Spore, Hypnosis, Lovely Kiss, Sing, Sleep Powder
    Trapping moves: Fire Spin, Wrap, Bind, Whirlpool, Mean Look, Spider Web

    Did I miss any moves?

    (thanks zero for helping with the moves)
     
  18. coyotte508

    coyotte508 Well-Known Member Administrator Server Owner Administrator Server Owner

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    Are you sure trapping moves aren't just mean look + spider web? Because sleep + Fire Spin looks kind of suckish...
     
  19. borat

    borat Member

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    Should only apply to ML/Spider Web.

    If you can pull off whirlpool, sing, perish song lapras, more power to you.
     
  20. Jørgen

    Jørgen Sniper

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    Meh. LK + Whirlpool + Perish Song Politoed is where it's at. But yeah, sleep + wrap-esque trap isn't a very big deal, even when combined with Perish Song.

    EDIT: Started testing Wrap on the PokeBattleCenter server, and out of 15-20 wraps, not a single one lasted fewer than 4 turns (which is in line with B/W mechanics). I'll test this more extensively on PO's Beta server before posting a formal bug report.

    Also, on another GSC wrap-related note, does anybody have a solid source on the per-turn damage done by this kind of move in GSC? Psypokes and Bulbapedia list it as 1/16 per turn, which is what the simulator implements, but these sources all claim 1/16 per turn for Sandstorm in GSC, too, which is wrong and indicates that both moves could simply have had their GSC effect descriptions copy-pasted from later generations.
     
    Last edited: Oct 5, 2011
  21. zeroality

    zeroality Artificial Insanity

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    Should I wait to adjust the script until Wrap is fixed?

    It's a simple change, I can remove:
    Code (text):
    1. sys.moveNum("Fire Spin"), sys.moveNum("Wrap"), sys.moveNum("Bind"), sys.moveNum("Whirlpool"),
    Let me know whether I should go ahead or not.
     
  22. Jørgen

    Jørgen Sniper

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    You can re-legalize wrap-like moves now. From what I calculate, it's only a 17.5% chance of a kill with each attempt for LK + Whirlpool + Psong Politoed, which is less than the 20% for a single go that the (as of now) perfectly-legal CRay Misdreavus and Umbreon enjoy.
     
  23. Crystal_

    Crystal_ Active Member

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    What about Spore / Whirlpool (/ Baton Pass) Smeargle?
     
  24. Jørgen

    Jørgen Sniper

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    Whirlpool doesn't pass, so that takes a lot of bite away from it. It could help to get an Agility or Belly Drum (Drum is especially interesting) off against a Spore'd Phazer without risking the opponent switching to another Phazer or going to something like CurseLax or an Exploder while you set up, but I don't really think it's that big a deal.
     
  25. Crystal_

    Crystal_ Active Member

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    Oh, yeah, that's true, now I think I remember when I thought about WP/BP Vap a long ago and I found out it doesn't pass,, but for some reason I had completely forgotten that yesterday...

    I agree with drum being especially interesting though!
     
  26. borat

    borat Member

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    What's the point of Whirlpool BP vap even if it DOES pass???
     
  27. Crystal_

    Crystal_ Active Member

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    I'm talking I thought about it a long ago (around 2008). Don't ask me why, I had no idea about GSC back then. The thing is that when Jorgen said wp doesn't pass, that thought came to mind...
     
  28. Jørgen

    Jørgen Sniper

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    I guess it could catch something like ST Raikou/Egg/other Vap for your own Ground/Umbreon/Electric to murder. Not much outright phazes it outside of Suicune, who's nowhere near as popular a Phazer as Skarm/Steelix/Ttar/Raikou, plus it'd catch people by surprise.