[ADV] CALLOUS Gen 3 OU Tier List

Discussion in 'Past Gens Discussion' started by CALLOUS, Aug 19, 2011.

  1. CALLOUS

    CALLOUS Active Member

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    This list is strictly my opinion and does not reflect the opinion of anyone other than myself including the staff of Pokemon Online. This list is intended for entertainment, discussion, and educational purposes only and is by no means official. This list is made from a competitive viewpoint only and entirely disregards things like usage, "coolness" factor, and popularity. It shows only the Pokemon that I consider viable, to various extents, in the Gen 3 OU metagame. If it is not listed it means, quite simply, that I do not think it is good enough. As with any tier list there WILL be disagreements, both large and small, and I completely understand and respect that. I simply ask that if you disagree you do so in a respectful way. I also ask that you have experience with Gen 3 OU before making comments. Logic goes a long way. Enjoy!




    Tiers are listed in a top to bottom (best to worst) manner both in terms of the order of the tiers and the Pokemon themselves within each tier.

    SS-

    Tyranitar
    Celebi
    Gengar/Suicune

    S-

    Snorlax
    Blissey/Jirachi/Zapdos
    Raikou
    Salamence
    Metagross
    Skarmory

    A-

    Dugtrio
    Magneton
    Swampert
    Aerodactyl
    Flygon
    Forretress
    Cloyster
    Milotic
    -----------------
    Porygon2
    Heracross
    Starmie
    Claydol
    Gyarados
    Regice
    Vaporeon
    Houndoom
    Dusclops


    How I define each tier-

    SS-
    The best of the best, these Pokemon are absolutely the premier monsters in the game. A good notch or two above other OU Pokemon, these are the Pokemon that define the metagame.

    S-
    Extremely powerful and viable Pokemon that are a step above the other OU Pokes but are not on the absolutely ridiculous level where the entire metagame revolves around their presence as with SS Pokes.

    A-
    All the top notch OU Pokes that are very good, but not ridiculous, can be found here. They are MUCH better than the Pokemon in the tiers below them and you should try to stick to this tier or above when building a team unless you need an extremely specific role filled. I drew a line in the middle of this tier this time to separate Pokes that I believe are completely viable from ones that are still better than B tier Pokes but kind of meh at the moment.


    All tiers below A have been deleted as at that point it's just very role-specific Pokemon that are highly uncommonly to rarely seen and are not right for the large majority of teams. This does not mean they're not viable under specific circumstances but it'd take forever to list off and attempt to order Pokemon that are theoretically playable under specific circumstances so I didn't bother.



    I would advise players to use Smogon with a grain of salt. The tier list that it has is good as an in general, but it is far from perfect. I really couldn't stress enough how over-centralized the current metagame is around Tyranitar and Celebi but when you're just starting out and you're looking at a list they appear like just another OU Pokemon on par with things like Medicham, Houndoom, and Dusclops which it also lists as OU. I assure you with 100% certainty that this is simply not the case.

    I also advise players to only use Smogon EVs as a reference point as opposed to auto-copying them or viewing them as set in stone. The EVs are very in general, as they have to be, and the EVs you use on your Pokemon should be extremely specific and never random. Adjust your EVs to survive in the current metagame.

    Finally, beware of locking yourself into Smogon movesets. Despite recent updates many sets are very outdated and a lot of new things have emerged and become popular since the time when those reviews were written. Offensive Celebi isn't even listed in their guide and several common takes on MixTar are also omitted. The best way to become familiar with a metagame is simply to practice it and experience things for yourself. You will only become familiar with situations by being in them as opposed to reading about them.




    The Current Metagame-

    As offensive as it has ever been. Heavy offense, whether specially based with Calm Mind or physically with Magneton, is everywhere. Full stall is virtually dead and Pokemon that only appear in heavy stall teams, such as Claydol, Vaporeon and Dusclops are rarely seen. Calm Mind Blissey is used over any other build of Blissey probably 90% of the time. Walls in general aren't good right now and teams are making a point to have as few utility Pokemon as possible in an attempt to make all of their mons be impactful. Many teams are so offensive that they're using no walls and no Rapid Spin Pokemon whatsoever. TTar has taken a noticeable dip in popularity as many offensive Pokemon on both sides of the spectrum such as Celebi, Jirachi, Raikou, Suicune, Metagross, Aerodactyl, Salamence and several others have the ability to do serious damage to it as well as outspeed it and live one of its attacks. With the metagame as aggressive as it is games are consequently shorter. Pokemon that can act as a check or a wall due to their typing but still have an offensive presence such as Jirachi, Metagross and Flygon are at a premium right now as often Heavy Offense against Heavy Offense comes down to tempo. Dugtrio is as dangerous as ever as it revenge kills the majority of the offensive Pokemon in the metagame. Because of this, Porygon2 has seen a rise in popularity on Balanced teams.



    I hope I have helped someone in some way by making this. I would be happy to have a mature discussion about this topic any time and would also happily answer any questions anyone may have. Thank you very much for reading.
     
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2012
  2. "DJ Shadow"

    "DJ Shadow" Guest

    I never thought T-tar was THAT good, but that's mainly because of his influence on the meta. You always deal with it somehow, it's quite similar to lax in GSC. He's the best poke in the game no doubt, but he doesn't perform as well game to game as say, zap and kou, just because people (Well, decent players) Always have a check. Celecbi is a bitch, in a good way. Lax overshadows almost all the other pokes (Lolimakesjoke) because not many fighting types are used, save for medicham, hera, and to an extent, machamp. CBMence and cham aren't keen on BS parahax either. Zap isn't amazing either, but that's mainly because I run raikou. Gengar on the other hand is something else. Shows how much the surprise factor can do. Blissey is one of the best pokes in the game just because of how many things it stops cold, and people need moar t-wave for rachis, although it still won't really be beating him. It can't get through celebis on its own though. Suicune again is an amazing clutch last poke. I personally run IB for mences, and I'm nearly tempted to go without CM, as I nearly always run into jirachis and raikous as I attempt to set up. Too early of course, but you can always assume it has CM. Are cloy, gyara, and nite that valuable? 2 of them are close, I'll let you decide which ones.
     
  3. Jørgen

    Jørgen Sniper

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    How exactly does Lax overshadow everything? I'm not much of an ADV player, but I was under the impression that Lax (at least Curselax, which is basically its trademark set) was not all that great in 3rd Gen.

    Also, the source of Lax's power is not the lack of fighting-types. It never has been. It's been the combination of defensive tankishness and offensive prowess. But it looks to me that its offensive power takes a dive in Gen 3 with every team being equipped to wall it without much effort (Gengar, Skarm, Ttar, Metagross, Jirachi are all good on their own, without even thinking about "what do I do when Snorlax?").

    Also, I figured Swampert would be higher than that. People always talking about how crucial it is to have him and his Rock resist for Ttar, and people be running HP grass on random things just to kill the bugger.
     
  4. CALLOUS

    CALLOUS Active Member

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    @Jorgen

    Those pokemon (sometimes) wall Snorlax, but many of them share a common weakness, which is that they cannot defeat last pokemon Cursalax. It is a very common situation for a player down 3-1 or 4-1 or so with only Curselax remaining to come back and win the game. An example Snorlax set that is fairly common is Curse, Return/Body Slam, Shadow Ball, Rest. For obvious reasons Gengar does not wall this and can not live the Shadow Balls after a Curse. Skarmory, typically a great wall, loses the ability to Whirlwind/Roar Snorlax away when it is the last Pokemon and will eventually lose to +6/+6 Returns or Para at a bad time from Body Slam. TTar takes A LOT more than you'd think from boosted Returns/Body Slams and Jirachi is in the same boat. Some Lax have Earthquake, though I strongly advise Shadow Ball as normal move + Earthquake leaves you completely cold to Gengar.

    Last Pokemon Lax, while beatable, is one of the most difficult Pokemon in the game to deal with and every serious team must have a viable game plan to fight this.
     
  5. lotuspirate

    lotuspirate New Member

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    I think you are overrating Celebi, Snorlax, and Blissey, and underrating Jirachi and Gengar. I would probably scrap the SS tier moving all of it to S and move Blissey down to A. Other minor changes I would make include Porygon2 to B and Magneton to A. Ninjask belongs in B, Typhlosion in B or C, and the rest belongs in C.



    The outdated bit is fairly accurate. The on-site analyses can be updated here: http://www.smogon.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=147

    Tyranitar and Gengar are two examples of analyses that have already been updated recently.

    The tier list probably would be different, but not as dramatically as you say.

    http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=38386

    I am not sure what this has to do with the tier list though.

    The RSE tier list was not based entirely on usage. In fact, it was primarily made considering the power of different Pokemon. Furthermore, it is static and will probably never change again.

    People can try to manipulate the tier list by spamming battles with low usage Pokemon, but on a high activity ladder like Smogon's it is very unlikely to have any noticeable effect.

    I don't agree with this, it is a good reference for power separations in most cases as well, despite perhaps being a bit outdated.
     
  6. CALLOUS

    CALLOUS Active Member

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    I can see some of your points about the tier list, though I think some are more reasonable than others. It really is extremely outdated. I mean, sure, Tyranitar and Gengar have been rewritten fairly recently, but what about EVERYTHING else? Some of the Pokemon they have listed as OU simply aren't anymore. Things like Donphan, for example, are not especially common at all. Also, as stated above, many of the comments made within the bios of the Pokemon are highly outdated as well. "Substitute Skarmory makes Donphan sad". Um what? You NEVER see Substitute Skarmory anymore. I do not believe I have seen a single one in the past year. This Pokemon is extremely rare, if it's even used at all. There are several other examples similar to that one. Some are worse than others. The information is simply extremely outdated.
     
  7. Marche Radiuju

    Marche Radiuju crush it casually

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    I don't play on any Smogon servers, but I know that Adv OU is fairly uncommon on the PO server. The lack of activity can account for the fact that, say, you haven't seen much Donphan. I remember when Donphan was on just about everyone's team, in Netbattle. I'm not saying that you're wrong about Smogon's inactivity; just that, while their articles have aged, most of the advice is still solid. It's only changed because there are less people, and thus a lower chance of seeing something different.

    I would argue that you've placed Regice/Cloyster/Dugtrio too high, and Salamence/Vaporeon too low. Also that the difference between Raikou and Jolteon is too great (Dugtrio beats Raikou unless it subs on the switch, but HP Ice Jolteon will always beat Dugtrio IIRC), and that you underestimate Ninjask/Scizor. Why do you think Marowak is considered so good? In the early days, JaskWak was all the rage (so was Bellyzard, but whatever). Scizor is like a slightly bulker Ninjask, that can actually make use of a boosted Attack/Speed before passing (although I could see why he wouldn't go above C-).

    Salamence is the only reason Regice was ever used as a lead; that says something. It's been absolutely pivotal to how Adv OU shaped.

    Vaporeon is the best Wish passer in Adv OU (outside the rare Blissey), and in a tier where there is no U-Turn, Protect can make a useful scout option (or mindgame tool, if you're facing a DDmence). It also walls crocune, which can be as devestating as last-mon Curselax for the unprepared.

    I know you've organized them by relative strength, but it would be easier to navigate this if you just ordered them alphabetically. I can assume that there's not so much variance between strength, if there are five subparts of OU.
     
  8. CALLOUS

    CALLOUS Active Member

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    @IJuggler

    You make many valid points and I agree with a lot of what was said. Your final paragraph especially couldn't be more right. So many of them are extremely extremely close that interchanging them by one or two places would be perfectly acceptable in several cases.

    To comment further about what I personally see and don't see, again using the Donphan example, I'd just like to note that I play on both the PO and the Smogon server and base my statements off of both. Of course, the results of one person are certainly not enough to be indicative of an entire metagame, but I do play quite a lot.
     
  9. B. Rizzo

    B. Rizzo A relic of the past, given new life.

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    This list is great in terms of actual usage and presence in the metagame, but to be honest this list is also inaccurate because of the simple fact that you cannot base which pokemon is the best of the best in one tier, simply because there are too many variables to actually make any claim you would make truth. Also, no one pokemon can outright defeat any strategy. For instance, Lax is easily beatable/counterable and it isn't even that common on a lot of the teams i've fought, especially now. Tyranitar is just as easily counterable, and it is a major threat to the OU metagame, however to say it is flat out better than all of the other pokemon who just flat out destroy/wall it in battle is absurd. Celebi is debatable, because it's hard to take out w/o any kind of hard hitting bug-type/fire-type move. Its defenses are great, and you have a multiple amount of opinions are far as play goes. However, you can't say that its the best of the best, because far too many strategies/scenarios render it susceptible to defeat. The S-B tier are indicative of the actual Smogon tiers for the ADV metagame give or take a few pokemon, and are for the most part accurate.
     
  10. CALLOUS

    CALLOUS Active Member

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    Just because things have counters (which EVERYTHING does) does not mean it isn't good or in the case of Tyranitar, the best. It is generally accepted that Tyranitar is simply the most powerful Pokemon in the OU Adv metagame. Do not misquote me though, as you did multiple times above. This does not mean that he is a be all end all solution to winning in the format. This does not mean that he does not have counters. This does not mean that there are not circumstances and scenarios in which he is not the best Pokemon. It simply means that in the bigger picture, which is the OU Adv competitive metagame as a whole, he is the most powerful Pokemon.

    Lax not being common against teams you've fought isn't relevant at all. ANYONE, meaning some 12 year old kid, can download PO and make a team with whatever they want on it. Idiots play random things. Idiots do not have optimal teams. Idiots do not use the best Pokemon. My statements as far as power level and usage is aimed at the highest level of play and what the best players in the game are playing. It completely disregards what random, mediocre at best players on PO use.

    Your first several sentences are simply repeating things I specifically stated before writing out my tier list, such as Pokemon is a very circumstance based game and that OBVIOUSLY if someone wants to be a huge prick and think of unique scenarios and matchups to make a Pokemon appear better or worse than it is one can do so. As stated above, Cacturne being a hard counter to Calm Mind/Leech Seed/Psychic/Recover Celebi does not make Cacturne OU, nor does it make it viable, nor does it make it better than Celebi. EVERYTHING has counters. That does not mean the Pokemon isn't the best of the best. The best Pokemon are still Pokemon and they have counters too.
     
  11. shrapn3l

    shrapn3l Member

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    jirachi, salamence, aerodactyl, and gengar should be higher. snorlax, blissey, raikou, forretress, and celebi should be lower. everything else doesn't really matter too much for me to comment on (regice and milotic definitely should be higher than dragonite, in fact so should jolteon, vaporeon, magneton, and claydol, but who honestly cares?)

    also i don't see how smogon's tier list would be much different. the banned pokemon would not get pushed down and tyranitar would never get banned. the pokemon they choose to list as BL honestly don't make a difference. i will agree that their nu list is meh, but that's just because i've followed UUSF for years and that's the list this place uses now i believe. besides that i can't imagine any significant revising for their tiers being necessary.

    also the groundwork for the tier lists for the first 3 gens barely considered usage at all. they did not start giving a shit about usage and unnecessary democratic processes until DP. the best players basically formulated the list themselves.

    anyway yeah, i don't think any significant bans or unbans need to be done to their tier list. if that isn't what you are suggesting then i dunno what the point of all this is...
     
  12. Whereabouts Unknown

    Whereabouts Unknown Absolutely Stunning Forum Moderator Channel Leader Forum Moderator Channel Leader

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    From my experiences playing 3rd gen, I think this is a very accurate list and I really enjoyed reading your explanations for each tier. I'm not nearly as experienced with ADV as most are here because I arrived to the Gen late, but I'll say that this justifies why I enjoy the tier so much.

    Sometimes when I'm ranting along the lines of "5th gen sucks too many brokemonz blah blah no balance and it's no skill this game sucks derp" I wonder what I even mean by balance. Is it that more things are usable? Or is it that fewer things are usable? Is it the prevalence of neither stall nor offence? How would I know.

    But this tier listing helps me realise why I don't like 5th Gen, or even 4th Gen, as much as ADV.

    You divide your list into 5 sections: SS, S, A, B, and C. There are 3 listed as SS, 4 with S, 18 with A, about 25 with B and a good amount with C. It forms a pyramid! And pyramids are always good when we're talking about balance (ie health, diet, governement, plans to take over ze world etc). Woo, I'm a geniux I founds a pyramid!

    So then after finding this I built a list of 5th Gen tiers (within OU) and this is exactly what I suspected. Instead of a climax, a solid middle, and sturdy base, there's more of an overweight SS tier consisting of 15-20 mons that crushes the below tiers, a wimpy core in A, and a huge base of random threats and gimmick walls that explode from the B and C section.

    So while ADV has a beautiful A section that is highly usable and used, 5th Gen has a ton of top threats and not enough solid middles. Also while random things like Sceptile are okay in ADV, they don't suck, and there're about 75 mons that I could list being valuable in its OU. 5th Gen has about 40 things that are good in OverUsed, and a ton of things that are used in OverUsed.

    Anyway, now that I've reached Buddah I'll comment on your list. I agree with nearly all of it, not that I'd know better about it, but if it were up to me I'd put Milotic down to B and Jirachi and Skarmory up to S. The only reasons I suppose Jirachi and Skarms shouldn't be S is that they can be trapped and killed by A mons. Otherwise they're very good.
     
  13. CALLOUS

    CALLOUS Active Member

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    Thank you to both of the above posters for feedback. Shrapnel is an excellent player whose opinion I definitely respect. Whereabouts Unknown also knows what he's doing and is well worth listening to. I appreciate you guys taking the time to read this and to comment on it.
     
  14. B. Rizzo

    B. Rizzo A relic of the past, given new life.

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    Really? I said the list is pretty good and for the most part accurate. I wasn't even trying to nitpick and be disrespectful, so if you really want to be that way fine. Tyranitiar is most prevalent not the most powerful, and if this list seems to be based on useability AND actual usage a lot of the pokemon in the A tier would be in S minimum, if anything the list should emphasis what is use more than others and how the respective pokemon fits as far as versatility goes especially, that said, TTar and Celebi would still obviously be top-tier. But what do I know? Its not like i've been playing ADV since 2005, and battled players you've probably rated as the "best" in the metagame.
     
  15. CALLOUS

    CALLOUS Active Member

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    There is not one part of me that disrespects you B. Rizzo. There is no need for sarcasm nor do I have any interest in having an ego-fueled discussion via the internet. Like I said, I respect you completely- I simply strongly disagree with your opinion.
     
  16. B. Rizzo

    B. Rizzo A relic of the past, given new life.

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    It doesn't even matter bro, we need people to bring 3rd Gen back into prominence, because its too great a metagame to completely leave behind.
     
  17. CALLOUS

    CALLOUS Active Member

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    Agree completely. I am the new Gen 3 OU Gym Leader. Hopefully I can get more people playing.
     
  18. M Dragon

    M Dragon Active Member

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    Salamence and Metagross are top threats of ADV OU. Swampert walls lots of stuff, including most of the most powerful physical sweepers (aka metagross, mence and t-tar). Dugtrio has a huge impact in the metagame.
    I think those 4 mons deserve to be higher.
     
  19. Marche Radiuju

    Marche Radiuju crush it casually

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    Actually, seeing as how I've recently gotten more adv games than usual, I'd have to say that Flygon ranks about as high as Swampert, maybe one or two ranks lower. It puts a full stop to ddtar without any defensive EVs, and I imagine it could stop BOAH just as well as Swampert with some defensive investment. It's one of the few things that can really fit HP Bug on its set and use it to KO Celebi (Dugtrio comes to mind), and if you run Fire Blast or a choiced set you can threaten the likes of Suicune or Skarmory, who are both 2HKOd (Suicune however is only 2HKO'd from adamant Flygon with sandstorm or spikes support). If you decided to carry Quick Attack, you'd be hard-pressed to find a better revenger in OU; it could probably end stalls from the likes of Zapdos.

    And maybe it's just me, but Heracross seems a little high on that list. I've never liked it for fighting off Celebi, with that big Psychic weakness (not to mention everyone and their dog runs HP Fire Celebi), and the only other reason I could think to use it would be to abuse Sleep Talk + Guts, which could be brutal if only Skarmory didn't carry Drill Peck.

    I know it's situational, but Smeargle doesn't really feel like it should be that low. It's stats are atrocious, but when you compare it to others, it's not so bad. It outspeeds Metagross, for example. And with its scary ability to abuse Baton Pass and Belly Drum it could set up any member of an offensive team for a monstrous killfest, if not a full sweep. I just sort of think it's above things like Zangoose and Muk.

    If I sound like I'm nitpicking here, it's only because almost everything fits in very well here. I think that tiering should be done with the knowledge in mind that the amount of match ups a Pokemon can win plus its ability to keep momentum is the best way to organize a specific 'this pokemon is above this pokemon' tier list. Whether or not that was the goal, it achieved the same effect here.
     
  20. CALLOUS

    CALLOUS Active Member

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    Both of the above comments are very true. Thanks for the feedback my friends!
     
  21. Meteor64

    Meteor64 TM1337 Falcon Punch

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    I don't think you should have an SS tier. There's just too little difference in viability between SS and S, with the exception of Celebi, who is viable in almost any team. Tyranitar has never been much of a bother for me, and whenever I use him I never get the results I quite anticipate. He's not bad, by any means, but he's nowhere near as stellar as he's made out to be. I'd actually put him in A.

    Blissey should swap places with Skarm IMO, she's very good at what she does, but she doesn't pose a threat at all, which means by switching to Blissey you're almost forcing yourself to the defensive and handing control of the game to your opponent. Skarm on the other hand can punish your opponent if they switch to a counter, by either making then switch to a generally inoffensive spinner (which you can then exploit) or by letting you get up the spike layer, which is very beneficial in the long run.

    Jirachi and Metagross deserve a place in S too, Jirachi for its sheer versatility (support, tank, CMer, heck, I've ran a CB variant, which is downright hilarious), and Metagross because it's such a steamroller, and a well played Agiligross is nigh on unstoppable.

    Flygon is a pokemon I've wanted to make work, but never managed it. Others may swear by it, but, I guess like TTar, I can't ever get it to achieve much. Difference is, I've actually had trouble playing against Flygon before, so I won't say anything further on it.

    Claydol belongs in A, IMO. STAB Psychic makes Gengar shit bricks, so most of the time, your Spinning can go unhindered. Not only that, but its the only Spinner immune to Spikes (well, Delibird, but lol), which is something that I think people simply just don't think about- bearing in mind most times you'll be switching it into Spikes, that alone should put it at head height with other Spinners. Then you factor in its impressive ability to tank on both sides, and Explode, theres no real reason to say this isn't top notch.

    Tauros should be A material simply because its the best lead in the game, even though no-one uses it. I've proved this somewhere else, but the only lead you don't stay in on is Metagross, for fear of CB MM. You can oust every other lead out there.

    Gard deserves a spot in B, I reckon, but I know you don't like her for some reason so I'll let you off :p

    I'm not sure Entei and Misdreavus even belong on this list. Gengar does what Misdreavus does, but faster, and Entei...blows.

    As for Ninjask, I'll contest with you and say he can make a very effective surprise CBer. He gets buttraped by Skarmory still, but he can execute a lot of frail, fast pokemon, or just crippled ones.

    Also, Slaking sucks, he's pretty much a noobstomper, that's all he's good for. Sub and Protect just make him worthless.
     
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2011
  22. shrapn3l

    shrapn3l Member

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    Tauros is an okay lead. whatever you're facing off again MIGHT switch out (besides the addition of maybe forretress, skarmory, whatever) but it's not that fearsome. leads with substitute can just check what move you're locked into, and other leads can just switch the the appropriate pokemon to absorb the hit because tauros has lackluster coverage moves. he hits many pokemon hard, the problem is hitting the right pokemon. it's not really used simply for the reason that it doesn't really carry that much weight as a team member, but it is decent...

    Slaking is definitely better though. it has significantly higher attack, shadow ball, and focus punch. the idea is to put your opponent in difficult positions. predict early, try to eliminate resistances with magneton and perhaps even a pursuiter. Double-Edge can do upwards of 70% to pretty much any pokemon that doesn't resist it, and like 35% to pokemon that do resist it, and it's fast, so you bring it in when you think your opponent is going to bring in a weakened pokemon like a a low health zapdos or swampert, and your opponent is in a tough position. the theory is that you're taking the same risk as using any other cber (banking on predicting correctly, hitting and running), except the reward is a much higher attack stat that can get rid of things much more quickly. the only better cbers are metagross, salamence, aerodactyl, perhaps tyranitar (which is better suited for other rolls generally, but given the type of defensive cores people are using these days might be worth a try) and heracross. how many times are you going to be 1 on 1 with a pokemon that has substitute, nevermind PROTECT? cbers are not bad because resistances and immunities exist... and i do not think the sheer existence of substitute/protect make slaking bad. swampert uses protect half of the time and what really uses substitute? some jirachis, some heracross, sceptile, uncommonly tyranitar and celebi, shitty players using gengar. it's not common enough to totally make Slaking obsolete.

    also flygon is excellent and don't forget that claydol can also use light screen/reflect and ice beam. cb claydol is also interesting (shadow ball, eq, rapid spin, explosion).

    i agree that jirachi should be higher and blissey lower.
     
  23. Meteor64

    Meteor64 TM1337 Falcon Punch

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    ....leads with Substitute? The ones that outspeed Tauros consist of...3 pokemon- Sceptile, Ninjask and Jolteon (you could make an argument for +Speed Raikou but Raikou works better as a punisher to be switched in). And sure, they can get up the Sub, but scouting for Tauros' move just shows you've been beat- you've had to sacrifice 25% to figure out what you switch in- at which point the Tauros player can get in a switch anyway, banking on you to make the switch. Every other lead will take a huge hit from what he throws at them.

    He's not as scary as Mence, but he can get the one-up on almost every other lead, and forces switches like nothing.

    He definately does suffer from poor teamplay and movepool, though.

    And the turn afterwards you're practically forced to switch. I can see the merit, but I'd much rather use Medicham in most cases for the all out face-mashing approach- more flexibility, better STAB, and hurts more. I suppose with a Jolteon supporting you could wreak some real havoc though.
    how many times are you going to be 1 on 1 with a pokemon that has substitute, nevermind PROTECT?
    Fairly common Subbers (that can outspeed Slaking)-
    Jolteon
    Raikou
    Celebi (unlikely to run max Spd)
    Jirachi(also unlikely, but the possibility is still there)
    Flygon
    Gengar
    Sceptile
    Espeon
    Ninjask
    And then there's Vaporeon, who Protect/Wishes him.

    Yes, I am aware that these pokemon will not always run Sub, and that there will be counters for these on your team, but my point is that unless your opponent is an idiot, Slaking cannot really touch these pokemon, and is rendered useless against them (unless you use Fury Swipes, lol). If you then factor in every pokemon with Sub, you have a checklist of things Slaking cannot safely switch in on- which limits it even further. I am not saying Slaking is a bad pokemon, but he's just too ineffective vs certain things for me to actually appreciate it. At least Medicham and Heracross can actually destroy anything.

    However, this is all personal opinion and preference and gets us nowhere. I guess it's more an issue of how I worded my statement- I wasn't trying to say the existence of Sub/Protect made him worthless, but rather in the presence of those moves, he can't achieve anything.






    Sub Punch Gengar actually works amazingly with Spikes down. In fact, I think CALLOUS was the one who mentioned it to me...

    Like I said, I've just never seemed to get any mileage out of Flygon, personally. I've tried Sub, CB and Screech, none of them did a whole lot other than amke the opponent switch a bit.

    Can't believe I didn't mention screens on Claydol, I pretty much run at least one of them on any Claydol I use, they turn him from a tank into a fortress.

    As a side note, I think certain Pokemon personify exactly what CALLOUS was trying to capture in each tier, while others don't quite fit in- eg, in A; Its hard to think of a team where Skarmory wouldn't be welcome, yet at the same time, Dugtrio, undoubtedly one of the most useful pokemon in the game, will only ever work in a team that needs certain threats eradicated. In B, Jolteon is almost perfectly summed up by CALLOUS' description of the sub-tier, however there are a lot of situations where Lapras can fill in roles on a team (it's the most versatile bulky water, in terms of what it can do), but it's in no way A material.
     
  24. CALLOUS

    CALLOUS Active Member

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    Many updates to reflect the current extremely offensive metagame. Many changes explained. Check it out! ^^
     
  25. Crystal_

    Crystal_ Active Member

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    I wouldn't really say Celebi is that good. I'd say ttar/gengar are top 2, then Celebi is on par with things like Zapdos/Swampert
     
  26. Groudon Ramsay

    Groudon Ramsay Active Member

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    I beg to disagree. I've been playing ADV quite a bit lately and I yet to see a single decent player without a Celebi on their team. I'm not exaggerating here either.

    I definitely think Snorlax should be up in SS with Pert and Cune, while Skarm should probably be moved down to A.
     
  27. AnneWintour

    AnneWintour Elitist bundle of sticks

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    Earthworm's team doesn't have celebi js :3 however I do agree too many things carry hp bug ;-;
     
  28. Meteor64

    Meteor64 TM1337 Falcon Punch

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    I dont like this new list, too many tiers. Although I will admit Celebi tier makes sense (but it doesn't need banning).

    A few of the things you've put in D-tier don't belong there, but in C-tier.
    Lanturn, for its ability to force out pretty much every bulky water bar Swampert and Ludicolo, and laughing at Zapdos/Magneton at the same time.
    Kingdra is effective with good Dugtrio support.
    Armaldo has a role in filling holes on teams which need a hard hitting physical attacker, rapid spinner, or Knock Off (which only Hariyama notably has).
    Exeggutor has Sleep Powder over Celebi and Sceptile, and Explosion over both Celebi, Sceptile and Venusaur. It also hits a lot harder.

    The rest of the D-tier belongs in the little section under the list which you left specifically advising why each of these pokemon does not belong in OU. Like Typhlosion for instance (poor mans Charizard)

    Also, Moltres in B wtffff? I haven't actually seen one of those since I joined PO, I'd like to know why its suddenly useful (unless this is to do with the rise in Dugtrio usage working against Houndoom, so people are looking for a viable alternative, though I'd still use Houndoom)
     
  29. Luck>Skill

    Luck>Skill Well-Known Member

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    PO Trainer Name:
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    Moltres is surprisingly good, especially with many teams using Dugtrio as their "check" to fire types with HP Grass, even though idk it's A tier worthy...but it's surely one of the best fire types out there, mainly because Dugtrio can't revenge it that easily
     
  30. M Dragon

    M Dragon Active Member

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    The main threats. Any decent team will have at least 4/5 of these:

    The best:
    -Tyranitar
    -Suicune
    -Celebi

    Huge threats:
    -Metagross
    -Salamence
    -Jirachi
    -Gengar
    -Zapdos
    -Swampert
    -Dugtrio
    -Snorlax
    -Heracross
    -Skarmory
    -Blissey

    Big threats:
    -Milotic
    -Aerodactyl
    -Gyarados
    -Raikou
    -Starmie
    -Flygon
    -Regice
    -Medicham
    -Jolteon
    -Dragonite
    -Blaziken
    -Magneton
    -Forretress
    -Claydol
    -Tauros
    -Slaking

    And also, balance is still dominating ADV
     
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2012
  31. Meteor64

    Meteor64 TM1337 Falcon Punch

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    Well I can't really judge on Moltres' current viability since I haven't actually seen it used in, like, ever. I can see WHY it'd be good, but as far as overall usefulness goes I can only guess. I'm pretty sure its not B material as CALLOUS describes B tier though.

    I'm also slightly confused, I know CALLOUS thinks Magneton is overrated... why is it A tier all of a sudden?
     
  32. M Dragon

    M Dragon Active Member

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    Magneton is usually usesless after it kills skarm.
    Also Suicune and Tyranitar are at celebi level
     
  33. Rewer

    Rewer Active Member

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    Tyranitar is the better pokemon on the metagame, imo. His versatility isint even funny. the only downside is being trapped by dugtrio but the number of holes he can play on a team is just ridiculous, with about 10 different possible movesets. Celebi is right there too, being.. just too good, checking so many threats (i don't think it really should be banned though, you can build a team without celebi and there are enough 'checks' for it lol...)
     
  34. CALLOUS

    CALLOUS Active Member

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    @Meteor, M Dragon, and Rewer

    Thank you very much for the feedback and mature discussion. i very much appreciate when a few guys who genuinely know what they are doing can sit down and have a discussion with tempers or egos rising. We all have a few slight differences in opinion but for the most part we are all on the same page on the large majority of important things. I don't think that is a coincidence either. i think it speaks to how defined the current metagame is (though it is of course subject to change to an extent) and how clearly a lot of the better players understand what is going on.

    :)
     
  35. Rewer

    Rewer Active Member

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    Yea I saw moltres in action once and it can be pretty good spreading burn and depending on your opponents team can be pretty dangerous (a fire type with hp grass is quite anti-metagame nowdays if you ask me, if not trapped by trio, even more) It's an underrated mon indeed, but not A worthy. Tyranitar screwing up his moring sun and suicune/milotic/blissey existance makes his life harder. It's on the right class B, a BL pokémon that can be useful for OU. Like Porygon2.

    Id def move dusclops to B though. It was a A mon at least back in the past, then keep falling and falling until now when its considered trash. still, is quite good spin blocker for stall because of its massive bulk. The downfall is the spinners like Forry and Cloyster set ups on them. He totally shuts down Starmie though and can last for real longer. (it probably can beat mix tar without crunch for example). Still, yes, i agree its totally outclassed by Gengar in nowdays metagame.

    @callous: np bro!
     
  36. Meteor64

    Meteor64 TM1337 Falcon Punch

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    I'd agree with this, although "totally outclassed" isn't really an applicable phrase to this scenario. I'd say Gengar is more suitable to most teams needs, but as far as piss-ass annoying spin-blocker goes, there is no greater thing than Dusclops.

    Also, nobody's mentioned Crobat (its not on the list even), so I shall.

    Crobat is terrible so don't use it.

    There, said it. It's really pathetic in OU. The only possible reason to use it is Haze (the sets on smogon are horrible and won't accomplish anything), because, like, its the fastest Hazer, or a Toxic/Sub/Protect/Mean Look set, which would suck anyway.

    Crobat sucks, people. And I see more Crobat than I see Moltres. Either thats a testament to the brains of ADV players, or everyone forgets Moltres exists.
     
  37. M Dragon

    M Dragon Active Member

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    Crobat is a decent CBer.
    Celebi is worse than Suicune and Tyranitar.
    You are overrating jynx
    Moltres is low OU for a reason
     
  38. Meteor64

    Meteor64 TM1337 Falcon Punch

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    Its a bad Aerodactyl. It can switch in on Heracross and Breloom nicely, but other than that, its just walled by a lot of OU. Poisoning things with Sludge Bomb isn't brilliant either, because 99% of the time I'd rather have them burned/paralysed/toxiced.
     
  39. M Dragon

    M Dragon Active Member

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    Aero is OU (and I listed it as a big threat), and Crobat is BL
    Theres a reason of that, and ofc aero is better xd.
    They are quite different too though

    EDIT: btw, I edited my threat list
     
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2012
  40. lotuspirate

    lotuspirate New Member

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    This is a good list, much better than the OP imo. The line between "The best" and some of "Huge threats" is kind of sketchy though. All of the Pokemon from Metagross to Snorlax can easily compete with "The best", and are all pretty much reliably useful. Heracross I don't think has quite as much utility as those above it, is too easy to shut down with Dugtrio, and Sandstorm weakness doesn't help. Skarmory's and Blissey's usefulness is dependent on what you are facing, generally, and the presence of Magneton doesn't help Skarmory. However, I can easily see why they are a part of this section, even if they aren't as consistent as the Pokemon above them.

    Also, I'm not really an expert with using the lower OUs and BLs, but I think it is debatable whether Tauros and Slaking should make "Big threats" while things like Moltres, Cloyster, Houndoom, Charizard, and Umbreon miss out.


    Overall though I really like this list.