[BW2] Arceus

Discussion in 'Gen 5 Ubers' started by Da Mafiosi, Jul 14, 2011.

  1. Recker

    Recker Member

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2011
    Messages:
    106
    Likes Received:
    0
    Offensive Draco Arceus is completely terribel. There are much better suits to offensive Dragons such as Rayquaza or Garchomp. However, defensively, it can withstand a few assualts bar the always common Ice and Dragon. However, it will always remain the inferior steel type.
     
  2. Blimlax

    Blimlax A Silent and Serene Heart

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2011
    Messages:
    293
    Likes Received:
    141
    yup

    Ho-Oh annhilates Arceus Fight, Arceus Ghost also beats it 1 on 1 most of the time thanks to it's immunity to judgment. Chansey/Tentacruel +Lugia/Giratina/Certain Roar Arceus cores can toxic and phaze you easily. Shaymin-S[air slash flinch hax] and Jirachi [t wave/body slam + iron head flinch hax] are other things it need to watch out for. Mewtwo is obviously the biggest problem because it's very common and is never fun to play against, espically when it can 1hoko arceus fighting with psystrike easily.

    Also....Shedinja walls it all day long =P [yea am joking, i know it's very easy to beat shedinja other ways]
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2012
  3. Orcelot

    Orcelot AKA Angelus

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2011
    Messages:
    419
    Likes Received:
    4
    I know this thread is old... but how you guys go about dealing with Extreme Killer Arceus? This thing is always a big annoyance when I'm trying to build an offensive Ubers team. Skarmory is the only thing I've come across that can really take it on, tried defensive Ghost Arceus but sadly that gets 2HKO by +2 Shadow Claw :(. I'd like to know what offensive checks exist for dealing with EK Arceus, I know there's Terrakion but I'm not too keen on using that in ubers to be honest.
     
    Last edited: May 27, 2012
  4. -Manaphy--

    -Manaphy-- Overconsumption

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2010
    Messages:
    697
    Likes Received:
    1
    Terrakion is pretty good, but if your looking to not use it, then you could try an Arceus forme such as Eock or Steel. Scarf Dialga is in a similar boat to Terrakion, but it needs damage beforehand to OHKO. Of course, there is always Lugia and Giratina if you want them.
     
  5. fidgety

    fidgety Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2010
    Messages:
    1,539
    Likes Received:
    0
    the first section of my priority in ubers thread goes in depth about extremekiller arceus, as well as it checks, keep in mind it is a little old though not much has changed for arceus anyway.
     
  6. Dr. Doom

    Dr. Doom Long time hater of stall

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2012
    Messages:
    2,123
    Likes Received:
    110
    I use a Grass Arceus on my Uber Sandstorm team. Its moveset:
    Calm Mind
    Judgement
    Ice Beam
    Interchangeable (at the moment, Recover)

    I mostly use it to tackle Groudon and Kyogre, which it does very well. At +1, it can take an Ice Beam from Specs Kyogre. Judgement 1HKOs offensive Groudon at 0; Kyogre at +1.

    I've also experimented with Physical Bug Arceus, and Special Rock Arceus. They both worked pretty well, although the Rock one was trickier to run due to the commonness of Groudon and Kyogre. Bug one was great: Ho-Oh would switch in, and then get destroyed by Stone Edge.
     
  7. Blitzamirin

    Blitzamirin Waluigi! Number one!

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2011
    Messages:
    1,806
    Likes Received:
    276
    PO Trainer Name:
    Blitz
    Why not try Grass Knot? Hits the weather titans harder. Though, Manaphy...
     
  8. Dr. Doom

    Dr. Doom Long time hater of stall

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2012
    Messages:
    2,123
    Likes Received:
    110
    I prefer Judgement's consistant power, and Grass Knot doesn't really score any KOs that Judgement doesn't. I've also tried a Physical water set, with Swords Dance, Waterfall, Dragon Claw and Earthquake. In rain it was very effective.

    @Orcelot005

    Extremekiller Arceus is a pain, but it's not the invincible sweeper some people think it is. I'll list some ways you can handle it.

    Have Prankster Thundurus Taunt it to stop it setting up. Unless it gets a Swords Dance in, it won't be powerful enough
    Have Scarf Darkrai Trick the Choice Scarf onto it to lock it into 1 move. Then just switch in a Pokemon that resists the move it's locked into
    252HP/252Def Giratina can survive a +2 Shadow Claw, and either phaze it out with Dragon Tail or cripple it with Will-O-Wisp (unless it has a Lum Berry)
    Choice Scarf Adamant Terrakion can revenge kill it. It can survive a +2 Extremespeed, and has a very good chance to 1HKO it with Close Combat
    Although unusual, have Mew hold a Choice Scarf and Transform into Arceus. With max HP investment, Mew can take a +2 Extremespeed and KO Arceus with an Extremespeed of its own.

    Hope it helps :-)
     
  9. -Manaphy--

    -Manaphy-- Overconsumption

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2010
    Messages:
    697
    Likes Received:
    1
    All of these cannot switch in and all die to. +2 Extremespeed. These only work if your opponent is stupid enough to try to set up on Thunderus. Your going to need a more solid check like Terrakion or Lugia.
     
  10. Dr. Doom

    Dr. Doom Long time hater of stall

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2012
    Messages:
    2,123
    Likes Received:
    110
    I didn't mean that they could switch in and finish it, I meant they could stop it before it got going.
     
  11. -Manaphy--

    -Manaphy-- Overconsumption

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2010
    Messages:
    697
    Likes Received:
    1
    He's no going to try to set-up on them though, it'll be on your paralyzed Palkia where he'll SD and then your check is gone.
     
  12. Dr. Doom

    Dr. Doom Long time hater of stall

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2012
    Messages:
    2,123
    Likes Received:
    110
    The best way to counter Extremekiller Arceus is to revenge kill it (which I know is easier said than done). Here are some Pokemon that can either do that, or put an end to its sweep.

    Choice Scarf Adamant Terrakion. Can survive a +2 Extremespeed, and 1HKOs with Close Combat. If Arceus tries to use Brick Break/Earthquake, Terrakion will outspeed and 1HKO.
    252 HP/252 Def Giratina can either phaze it out or cripple it with Will-O-Wisp. Once it's burnt, it's useless. As a bonus, it's also immune to Extremespeed.
    Ditto for Ghost Arcues with same stats.
    If there's a Sandstorm going Adamant Excadrill can outrun and KO with Earthquake (if Arceus has taken some damage prior, which it likely will when setting up). It can survive a +2 Extremespeed.
    252 HP/ 252 SAtk Fighting Arceus can survive a +2 Extremespeed and 1HKO back with Judgement (after 1 round of Stealth Rock damage).

    Is that better?
     
  13. Orcelot

    Orcelot AKA Angelus

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2011
    Messages:
    419
    Likes Received:
    4
    I already said I tried Ghost Arceus. Relying on WoW to beat it will come and bite you in the ass, trust me. Even if it does hit, many Arceus carry Lum Berry and will just 2HKO you with Shadow Claw. Giratina can phase it out, but if it's coming in after Arceus have boosted, it's taking a massive hit to do so and will be too weak to take another +2 Shadow Claw if Arceus manages to set up again. I tried Scarf Dialga, and it seemed to work fine. Thanks, -Manaphy--.

    On Grass Arceus, I would run Judgement over Grass Knot, otherwise you're gonna lose to Manaphy and the last slot should always be Recover so that you can check Kyogre reliably.
     
  14. Dr. Doom

    Dr. Doom Long time hater of stall

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2012
    Messages:
    2,123
    Likes Received:
    110
    Sorry I couldn't help Orcelot. I do run Judgement and Recover, I tried Magic Coat for a bit but it was too unreliable. It does have trouble with the bulky steel types, but that's what my Reshiram's for.

    I tried Ice Arceus the other day. I wasn't expecting much, but actually it was very good.
    Moveset
    Calm Mind
    Judgement (need all the power I can get, and Ice Beam's freeze rate is too low to justify using it instead)
    Thunderbolt
    Fire Blast
    Timid Nature
    EVs: 4 HP, 252 SAtk, 252 Spd

    After 1 Calm Mind, it was doing immense damage. And thanks to perfect neutral coverage, it was almost impossible to wall. At +1, Judgement was 2HKOing max Sp.Def Sassy Giratina. At +2 it could 2HKO Max HP Blissey after some hazard damage. However, hazards and Reshiram were a serious problem.
     
    Last edited: May 29, 2012
  15. Xdevo

    Xdevo Phrasing Super Moderator Tour Director Super Moderator Tour Director

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2010
    Messages:
    2,526
    Likes Received:
    1,617
    I'm just going to say that Ice Judgement is completely pointless as the 5 BP isn't going to do anything, and the extra PP is immensely helpful for things with Pressure.
     
  16. Dr. Doom

    Dr. Doom Long time hater of stall

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2012
    Messages:
    2,123
    Likes Received:
    110
    Ice Beam has the same PP as Judgement.
     
  17. Xdevo

    Xdevo Phrasing Super Moderator Tour Director Super Moderator Tour Director

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2010
    Messages:
    2,526
    Likes Received:
    1,617
    Sorry, looked at the wrong move there.

    Freeze hax is still excellent.
     
  18. Dr. Doom

    Dr. Doom Long time hater of stall

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2012
    Messages:
    2,123
    Likes Received:
    110
    It is when it works, but for me it only happens once in a blue moon. And when it does happen, my opponent usually just forfeits (can't say I blame them). I did change it to Ice Beam on the off chance, but it hasn't happened with my Arceus yet.
     
  19. チャンピオンワタル

    チャンピオンワタル HYPER BEAM!

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2010
    Messages:
    296
    Likes Received:
    143
    PO Trainer Name:
    【天龍神】 ワタル
    Just as I was explaining in this thread how splendidly Beelzebub, OverlordGAIA and Yahweh version 2 counter Extreme Killer Arceus, this happens:

    Start of turn 5
    Kirge Opie called Wisemon back!
    Kirge Opie sent out OverlordGAIA! (Arceus-Rock)
    [805]Killer G's Arceus used Swords Dance!
    [805]Killer G's Arceus's Attack sharply rose!
    The sunlight is strong!
    [805]Killer G's reflect wore off!

    Start of turn 6
    OverlordGAIA used Will-O-Wisp!
    [805]Killer G's Arceus was burned!
    [805]Killer G's Arceus ate its Lum Berry!
    [805]Killer G's Arceus's status cleared!
    [805]Killer G's Arceus used Swords Dance!
    [805]Killer G's Arceus's Attack sharply rose!
    The sunlight is strong!

    Start of turn 7
    [805]Killer G's Arceus used ExtremeSpeed!
    It's not very effective...
    OverlordGAIA lost 175 HP! (39% of its health)
    OverlordGAIA used Will-O-Wisp!
    The attack of OverlordGAIA missed!
    The sunlight is strong!

    Start of turn 8
    [805]Killer G's Arceus used ExtremeSpeed!
    It's not very effective...
    OverlordGAIA lost 177 HP! (39% of its health)
    OverlordGAIA used Will-O-Wisp!
    The attack of OverlordGAIA missed!
    The sunlight is strong!

    Start of turn 9
    [805]Killer G's Arceus used ExtremeSpeed!
    It's not very effective...
    OverlordGAIA lost 92 HP! (20% of its health)
    OverlordGAIA fainted!

    This makes me right now conclude that the only Extreme Killer Arceus counters in existence are Multiscale Lugia in a team with Magic Bounce support, and Dragon Tail/Roar Groudon with absolutely maximized physical bulk (and even the latter can only counter Arceus twice at most). How unsurprising really, as I just realized that Flames of the Heavenly Light, which I call the best DW Ubers team in existence, actually owes a significant portion of its success exactly to the fact that that team contains both of the aforementioned Arceus counters, and is thus protected against by far the most ridiculously powerful sweeper in the history of Pokémon more than any other team I have ever used (as well as probably the vast majority of teams on the ladder). Aside from them, everything else that people could possibly use to stop Extreme Killer Arceus are completely unreliable and not at all worth using as a dedicated Arceus counter. This includes all Pokémon that rely on Will-O-Wisp to do so, such as both Formes of Giratina and any Arceus that knows this move.

    I sincerely hope that Will-O-Wisp gets modified to have a higher (if not 100%) accuracy in Pokémon Black and White 2, so that the various Will-O-Wisp-using Arceus that I have utilized in the past, such as Beelzebub, OverlordGAIA and Yahweh may actually be worth using.
     
  20. Dr. Doom

    Dr. Doom Long time hater of stall

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2012
    Messages:
    2,123
    Likes Received:
    110
    So do I, although not 100% because that would make it cheap as hell. 85% would be good - it would still miss, just nowhere near as much.
     
  21. チャンピオンワタル

    チャンピオンワタル HYPER BEAM!

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2010
    Messages:
    296
    Likes Received:
    143
    PO Trainer Name:
    【天龍神】 ワタル
    Paralysis is arguably a better status effect overall than burn, yet Thunder Wave is allowed to have 100% accuracy. I don't think a 100% accuracy burn move would be unreasonable as a result.
     
  22. Dr. Doom

    Dr. Doom Long time hater of stall

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2012
    Messages:
    2,123
    Likes Received:
    110
    For the Pokemon who rely on speed, paralysis is a killer. But for the ones who don't (Magnezone, Heatran, Groudon, Giratina, non-Scarf Dialga, defensive Jirachi, Politoed, non-Scarf Kyogre) or have priority moves it doesn't really matter. Whereas any Pokemon that relies mostly on its physical attack is dead weight for the rest of the match when burnt (unless they have Guts). Also, a lot of Pokemon are immune to Thunder Wave, whereas only Fire types are immune to Will-O-Wisp. I agree, make it more accurate, but not 100%. Because then you'd just get Prankster Smeargle spamming it endlessly.
     
  23. Xdevo

    Xdevo Phrasing Super Moderator Tour Director Super Moderator Tour Director

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2010
    Messages:
    2,526
    Likes Received:
    1,617
    The number of pokemon that would rely on Speed and the number of pokemon that rely on attacking are about the same imo. And the amount of pokemon immune to Thunder Wave and Will-O-Wisp aren't terribly far off either.

    If anything the only reason 100% accuracy WOW would be annoying is the extra residual damage.
     
  24. -Manaphy--

    -Manaphy-- Overconsumption

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2010
    Messages:
    697
    Likes Received:
    1
    You are severely overrated Groudon has a Arceus counter. It's barely even a check. Arceus will just attack straight off the bat while you can only manage to phase it out once, maybe twice. You are badly doing anything to it. Giratina is a much better check than you think; with Max Def it can take two Shadow Claws and get off two Will-O-Wisps before it goes down to missing. Lugia is a good counter too, but only with Stealth Rock off the field, and since Magic Bounce pokemon are just terrible and will become ineffective even in DW Ubers, you'll have to resort to using Forretress, Excadrill, or Tentacruel, but those Pokemon are great at what they do in Ubers so that's not that bad.
     
  25. チャンピオンワタル

    チャンピオンワタル HYPER BEAM!

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2010
    Messages:
    296
    Likes Received:
    143
    PO Trainer Name:
    【天龍神】 ワタル
    I never said that Groudon is a good Arceus counter - just a counter nonetheless as it can Dragon Tail or Roar it out twice. But even then, I do not think that it is reliable at all to have only a Groudon to counter Extreme Killer Arceus, which is exactly why I also use a Lugia in my team for that exact same purpose, so I am not overrating it.

    As for Giratina, it is in exactly the same boat as Arceus-Ghost, Rock and Steel with Will-O-Wisp, except I'd say that it is even worse than them at doing its job, firstly due to the fact that it needs to take a powerful Shadow Claw before it can even unleash its initial Will-O-Wisp due to the fact that it is slower than Arceus, and secondly due to its reliance on Rest and Sleep Talk for healing, which is generally not as useful as Recover. All it would take for Giratina to fail would be for Arceus to Swords Dance as Giratina switches in, Shadow Claw Giratina as it fires its initially Will-O-Wisp only for Lum Berry to nullify the burn, Shadow Claw Giratina a second time as the second Will-O-Wisp misses, and then finish off Giratina with a third and final Shadow Claw. And this is not even taking into consideration Shadow Claw's high critical hit ratio. Beelzebub, OverlordGAIA and Yahweh have much greater odds at countering Extreme Killer Arceus, and even then they are completely unreliable, as evident from what I have posted two messages earlier (and that was against an Arceus which did not even seem to know Brick Break or Earthquake - it completely, utterly and ridiculously overwhelmed an Arceus-Rock with just ExtremeSpeed alone).

    And in the current DW Ubers tier (where there is no Wifi Clause), Multiscale Lugia with Toxic in a team featuring Magic Bounce support is by far the best Extreme Killer Arceus counter - far better than Groudon, its only other counter. Judging from the votes in this thread (and it is not even clear if its results will affect DW Ubers in any way even if we were to assume that Wifi Clause will get implemented into DW OU in the end), I don't think it is yet even remotely safe to say that Wifi Clause will eventually appear in DW Ubers, so I think my claim stands at least for now.

    Also, I have always found Rapid Spin to be extremely unreliable as a counter to entry hazards due to how incredibly common Arceus-Ghost and both Formes of Giratina are, and this is made even worse by the fact that no Rapid Spinners can do any meaningful harm to them in any way. This means that if Wifi Clause does happen to get implemented into DW Ubers, then the only remaining Extreme Killer Arceus counter at that point would be Groudon, which is not that good a counter as we have both agreed, making Extreme Killer Arceus even more difficult to deal with.

    Perhaps another desirable change in the game mechanics we could hope for in Pokémon Black and White 2 would be for Rapid Spin to be able to remove entry hazards regardless of whether or not it hits a target (something that actually makes perfect sense, as it is illogical to think that impeded rotation can be powerful enough to blow away entry hazards, yet unimpeded spinning ironically cannot)?
     
  26. Luck>Skill

    Luck>Skill Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 24, 2010
    Messages:
    2,551
    Likes Received:
    602
    PO Trainer Name:
    Luck>Skill
    Keep telling yourself that, sweetie

    Let's get this clear: those Arceus spreads aren't "your" spreads, it's the STANDARD spread for WoW Arceus that want to check ExtremeKiller, and do you want to know why? Because Jolly Life Orb ExtremeKiller is becoming popular, so max speed is needed to get the WoW first.

    Also, your posts are terrible, too long, and not contributing at all
     
  27. Dr. Doom

    Dr. Doom Long time hater of stall

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2012
    Messages:
    2,123
    Likes Received:
    110
    @ Champion Lance

    Apparently the phrase "Short and to the point" doesn't exist in your vocabulary. Rapid Spin is pretty much useless in Ubers, as the only good spinners are Excadrill and Foretress. Which given how common Fire moves are, won't be staying in for very long anyway.

    You've made your point about Extremekiller Arceus on my thread (and like this, you did it in a very long winded way). My Sandstorm team has little trouble with it - if it's taken around 25% damage (easy when you consider Stealth Rock, Sandstorm damage and Life Orb reciol) my Excadrill outruns and 1HKOs it with Earthquake. And it can survive a +2 Extremespeed.
     
  28. チャンピオンワタル

    チャンピオンワタル HYPER BEAM!

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2010
    Messages:
    296
    Likes Received:
    143
    PO Trainer Name:
    【天龍神】 ワタル
    People are expressing dissatisfaction at my posting style, which abandons concision in favor for detail and precision? That's too bad, since I have never been the type to change my style just because of some random people's desires.

    I don't intend to claim ownership of the EV spreads found on OverlordGAIA and Yahweh, or the idea of a 252 Speed Jolly/Timid Arceus with Will-O-Wisp in general, but those entire movesets themselves are definitely my own, just as the moveset Beelzebub is definitely puregenius's, as I have never in my life seen anyone else using or posting any movesets remotely similar to those Arceus sets.

    Maybe Excadrill can be effective at eliminating Extreme Killer Arceus, but not only are Sandstorm teams hardly the majority among Über teams, but proposing a counter for the deadliest sweeper in existence when the use of that counter is pretty much completely exclusive to teams of one weather is far from helpful. I guess the exact same could be said for me suggesting Groudon as an Extreme Killer Arceus counter (although this may be justifiable in that Groudon is the third most popular and useful Pokémon in the tier, as well as the fact that a good number of non-weather dependent teams use Groudon anyway just for its own sake), in which case Multiscale Lugia with Magic Bounce support would be Arceus's sole reliable counter... which is rather unfortunate.
     
  29. -Manaphy--

    -Manaphy-- Overconsumption

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2010
    Messages:
    697
    Likes Received:
    1
    No, there are a lot of ways to deal with it. Choice Scarf Terrakion and Dialga are excellent ways: Terrakion can OHKO while Dialga can OHKO with a little prior damage. I think you are severely undermining Rapid Spin support: not only can Forretress/Tentacruel Toxic any Ghost types, they can set up spikes of their own on the switch, while Excadrill flat-out beats every Ghost type with a Lum Berry. In DW Ubers, Scarf Chandelure is a wonderful check, it falls around the same category as Dialga while Arceus cannot switch. Skarmory flat-out walls it. Forretress with Toxic/Pain Split will be able to bring it down or at least severely damage it. Defensie RestTalk Kyogre can be an effective check to it. Toxic Spikes put a ton of pressure on Arceus: Unless it has a Lum Berry you'll be able to play around it much easier. Usually I find that if I can Toxic it I can play around it until it succumbs to Poison; Extremekiller doesn't take much prediction to use, and I use this against it.
     
  30. Blimlax

    Blimlax A Silent and Serene Heart

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2011
    Messages:
    293
    Likes Received:
    141
  31. Ascension

    Ascension Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2011
    Messages:
    31
    Likes Received:
    0
    Wow Mewtwo is a check? Wow I haven't thought about that. I'm about to go test it.
     
  32. Xdevo

    Xdevo Phrasing Super Moderator Tour Director Super Moderator Tour Director

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2010
    Messages:
    2,526
    Likes Received:
    1,617
    Only if you use the bulky StallMewtwo set, which is pretty uncommon today considering it can rape stall with attacks.
     
  33. チャンピオンワタル

    チャンピオンワタル HYPER BEAM!

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2010
    Messages:
    296
    Likes Received:
    143
    PO Trainer Name:
    【天龍神】 ワタル
    Well, like I already mentioned in this thread, most of the Pokémon you mentioned are not very reliable counters for various reasons, and Pokémon like Choice Scarf Chandelure and Dialga are merely checks rather than actual counters, as not only can they not safely switch in and KO Arceus, but they also need Arceus having taken a good amount of prior damage beforehand (and in the case of Chandelure, it also requires the sunlight being strong) in order to even revenge-kill it. But in any case, upon seeing what you mentioned as well as the link Blimlax posted (although, I personally think that list exaggerates things a bit, if Pokémon like Mewtwo and Ho-Oh are actually being brought up as Arceus checks), I guess I'll keep a more open mind towards the reliable ways in which teams may go about neutralizing Arceus (even if such a method may not necessarily be through the use of a single, solid counter). Thinking about it more clearly, I guess I just got a bit carried away with ruling out every possible way to neutralize Arceus aside from Multiscale Lugia upon experiencing the frustration of seeing my Arceus-Rock's Will-O-Wisp getting nullified by a Lum Berry, followed by that move missing twice in a row. I do however, continue to hold that the use of the move Will-O-Wisp in general is a completely unreliable way of countering Swords Dance Arceus, despite being very fond of using this strategy in the past.

    Rapid Spinners can indeed poison Ghost-type Pokémon with Toxic, but I don't think this would help much at all against the very common Giratina with Rest and Sleep Talk, and even though Arceus-Ghost is more often than not permanently hindered by Toxic, it is not succumbing to the poison with just time alone, due to its access to Recover. And it is true that Forretress and Tentacruel can set up entry hazards against Ghost-type Pokémon, but this isn't really relevant as it doesn't change the fact that the entry hazards on one's own field would still be there, which could be very problematic if one's own team contains Pokémon like Multiscale Lugia, Ho-Oh or a Calm Mind Arceus without Refresh.
     
  34. 114

    114 Guest

    In DW, chandelure in the sun OHKOs with overheat. That's the best check/counter IMO.
     
  35. -Manaphy--

    -Manaphy-- Overconsumption

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2010
    Messages:
    697
    Likes Received:
    1
    You only need about a switch-in to Stealth Rocks once/ maybe a Life Orb recoil to OHKO with Chandelure and Dialga. I also fail to see how a Dialga cannot switch-in on Arceus: nothing Arceus can do can OHKO. Chandelure doesn't even care about switching-in because he's immune to Extremespeed and once he's in, Arceus is done-for.

    Also don't knock Defensive Ho-oh: It sounds stupid, I know, but it actually is quite adept at taking on Arceus, especially with the Dream World Regenerator.

    Arceus-Ghost and Giratina-O are both the most common spinblockers: even if Arceus-Ghost has Recover, Toxic damage will severely cripple it for the rest of the match, so much that most Pokemon will be able to KO it; especially with the strength of the pokemon in this tier. Giratina is problematic, however you have to consider that if they have this you can set up three layers of spikes/2 layers of Toxic spikes right back at them. Giratina is not THAT hard to take out either; for example Toxic Forretress + Dialga handles every spinblocker.
     
  36. チャンピオンワタル

    チャンピオンワタル HYPER BEAM!

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2010
    Messages:
    296
    Likes Received:
    143
    PO Trainer Name:
    【天龍神】 ワタル
    Chandelure's Sun-boosted Overheat does 71.17-84.01% damage to an Arceus with 252 HP, which isn't enough to take it out even after a round of Stealth Rock damage, and Life Orb Arceus is not as common as Silk Scarf and Leftovers variants. As for Dialga, the situation is even worse, as even with Modest, its Draco Meteor only deals 53.6-63.51% to that same Arceus, and with Timid, there's even a chance that that move may do less than 50% damage to Arceus, meaning that a very solid amount of damage must have been done to Arceus before before Dialga can even think of revenge-killing it. On the other hand, Arceus after a Swords Dance easily disposes of Dialga with either a single Earthquake or a Brick Break followed by an ExtremeSpeed if Dialga fails to KO it with Draco Meteor beforehand, while Arceus with Recover can even take the chance to set up even more as Draco Meteor no longer becomes threatening to it after that move lowers Dialga's Special Attack. And this is not even taking into consideration the fact that Magic Bounce is very common in DW Ubers especially, which may result in one being unable to even set up the Stealth Rock that is so needed to weaken Arceus sufficiently.

    I never denied that defensive Ho-Oh can be useful in general, but just not as an Arceus counter in the way Donkey described it, as it gets taken out by two ExtremeSpeeds after a Swords Dance, while Sacred Fire only has a 47.5% chance of burning Arceus while factoring in that move's accuracy, meaning Ho-Oh cannot switch into Arceus and beat it most of the time, and the same applies to Mewtwo. But actually, now that I think more about this, an extremely physically defensive Regenerator Ho-Oh with Whirlwind in a team with Magic Bounce support may actually work as a counter. I almost never see it though, but I guess it could work.

    I think you're missing the point in regards to Rapid Spin. Yes, Forretress and Tentacruel can cripple Arceus-Ghost and most Giratina-O for the rest of the match with Toxic, and yes, they can both set up entry hazards against those Ghost-type Pokémon. But the entry hazards on one's own field would still be there until the opponent's ghost is taken out. After the opponent's Ghost-type Pokémon switches into Forretress/Tentacruel while taking a Toxic or getting a layer of hazards on their field on the switch, they can then force Forretress/Tentacruel to switch, either by threatening them with moves like Giratina-O's Hidden Power [Fire] against Forretress, or through the use of moves like Dragon Tail and Roar, resulting in another member of one's team taking damage from the entry hazards. The battle then goes on, with entry hazards on one's own field, with the opponent not letting their ghost get taken out, as they simply switch out that Ghost-type Pokémon every time one sends out something that can threaten it. And the battle unfolds until one gets the chance to send in their Rapid Spinner again, in which case the opponent once again sends out their Ghost-type Pokémon, and the process repeats. And if one uses a team containing many Pokémon that are susceptible to entry hazards while the opponent's team is not, then by the time one successfully takes out the opponent's ghost and uses Rapid Spin (provided one's Rapid Spinner is still alive by that point), then the opponent's entry hazards would have already served their purpose by dealing a considerable amount of damage to one's team, defeating the entire purpose of even having a Rapid Spinner in the first place altogether. And not to mention, relying solely on Forretress to keep one's own field hazard-free comes with the major problem of the incredibly popular Chandelure, which can easily block Forretress's Rapid Spin before trapping it and taking it out in two turns while Forretress at that point can only get one layer of hazards on the opponent's team. And if this happens, the entry hazards would be on one's field permanently, putting the trainer at a massive disadvantage for the rest of the match if they are using a team that despises entry hazards (which is often why they would even use a Rapid Spinner in the first place). I know Shed Shell rectifies this problem, but without Leftovers, Forretress's survivability would be endangered, making it even less effective against opponents with Ghost-type Pokémon to block its Rapid Spin, as it would get worn down due to switching into entry hazards repeatedly.
     
    Last edited: Jun 5, 2012