[ADV] regarding the team showcase for gen 3

Discussion in 'Past Gens Discussion' started by shrapn3l, Apr 13, 2011.

  1. shrapn3l

    shrapn3l Member

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    may i ask what the criteria for the team showcase teams is? because at least in the adv section (i took a peak at the DP section too, and i saw a bit of the same thing, but there is a greater volume of dpers so some of the teams are actually good!), the teams are kinda underwhelming! in whereabouts unknown's thread he even admits that he doesn't use his team anymore because it "isn't very effective." now, you could tack this up to metagame evolution, if the metagame wasn't already old as hell and if the team wasn't made only a few months ago anyway! but if you actually look at the team, you will see that his offense isn't all that overwhelming and every pokemon can be countered handily by common pokemon, and none of his team has any form of recovery, and he doesn't even have rapid spin.

    look at it like this: tyranitar sees swampert, salamence sees swampert or skarmory, swampert sees skarmory or zapdos, celebi sees tyranitar every single time, jirachi sees tyranitar, metagross, or swampert, metagross sees skarmory or swampert. there is no way he is wearing down these pokemon before they get the better of him, because skarmory is going to spike up easily. he is never going to be able to break stall with his offense, so this is hardly an effective "offensive team."

    in blue star's thread, well, you can just read my post there, as well as posts made by the other dudes. there are actually more things wrong with the team that i didn't even go into, too. I guess you are just trying to showcase "team archetypes" (stall, offense) or something, but if you are going to do that, you could at least try to put up a GOOD example! there are much better offensive teams and much better stall teams out there. also if you read through their posts and threat lists... they do not even give you a good grasp of the metagame or how to even use their teams.

    some examples:
    Problems in regardless of move choice: Suicune, Milotic, Flygon, Donphan, Dugtrio, Swampert.
    Problems for variants running Hidden Power [Bug]: Skarmory, Weezing, Dusclops.
    Problems for variants running Taunt: Claydol, Celebi.
    Other Acknowledgements: Looking beyond OU, Breloom can take anything the set has and OHKO back. The trick is to find Breloom, as its OP-ness was not yet extreme in Gen III. Sceptile outspeeds even Jolly variants after a Dragon Dance and can do quite a bit of damage. Heracross can survive a +1 Adamant Rock Slide and KO with Megahorn, but it will die with that and the two turns of sandstorm that result in it fighting it (it's like Romeo and Juliet :3).
    Suggested Tweaks:Starmie's Surf does 76% - 90.1% and Starmie is in return KOed by a +2 Rock Slide / Earthquake, but if you don't want to lose so much HP killing it a Jolly nature is favourable. Jolly also allows you to outpace Gengar and Raikou, but neither of them will do much.
    How to Effectively Switch In: Well, Tyranitar is a lead, so it's in to begin with. Should you need to call it back later, it can switch in on Regice, Magneton, Gengar (be sure you don't Dragon Dance while they Focus Punch you), Medicham (only when it's obvious they won't use a Fighting move), and many other Special Walls attracted by Jirachi. If you're running Jolly, you can switch into Raikou as it CMs, Dragon Dance while they Thunderbolt or Hidden Power [Grass] you, and then Earthquake them if they're dumb enough to stay in.

    skarmory is never a good switch-in, and thus never a PROBLEM for tyranitar. secondly, why would you switch tyranitar (especially ddtar) into a magneton, or a gengar (unless you know it doesn't have wisp)? you wouldn't! keep in mind that tyranitar doesn't have a sdef boost from sandstorm in rse. thirdly, breloom is OU.

    Problems while running Thunderbolt: Celebi, Raikou, Regice, Dugtrio, Claydol, Steelix.
    Problems while running Ice Punch: Dugtrio, Metagross, Steel, Steel, Steel, Steel, Suicune. Ice Punch's 20% freeze chance helps you overcome some "counters".

    raikou is no more a counter to thunderbolt jirachi than to ice punch. psychic does more damage than either move anyway!

    How to Effectively Switch In: It's difficult, not impossible. Find a Starmie or Jolteon or their Special Attacking like, or something that would rely on Toxic to deal with bulky Pokemon. Zapdos is a good choice to set up on, as is any Salamence or Dragonite lacking Earthquake, if you can outspeed it to soften up the Fire Blast with Calm Mind. Gengar never can hit Jirachi super-effectively, making it an acceptable set-up fodder.

    please don't switch into starmie or zapdos, especially if you don't have wish... you should only be switching into things like blissey, regice, skarmory, or choice nve moves.

    Problems: Blissey, Tyranitar, Dusclops.
    Other Acknowledgements: Bulky Waters bold enough to doubt a Grass attack can be a problem. In fact, CroCune might win one on one, and will definitely win if it's a phazer.
    Suggested Tweaks:Leech Seed for the aforementioned Suicune or Blissey. It could be run over Recover if you're feeling lucky.
    How to Effectively Switch In: Another Pokemon difficult to get into play. Raikou is an obvious switch in. Sceptile, Regice, Claydol, Donphan, Swampert, and Skarmory are all safe to switch in on, just don't get phazed by the latter two. Jirachi can be beat most of the time, and most Zapdos can't touch Celebi. Celebi is a good Will-o-Wisp soaker for Weezing.

    i don't know when dusclops even became so common again, but i guarantee you it isn't ever going to counter cm celebi - _ - i don't know when weezing became so common again either, but i wouldn't want to switch celebi into any sludge bombs... actually, now that i consider it, this team is pretty terrible at dealing with status. no sleep talk, sub jirachi can't absorb burns or paralysis, anything that's going to status celebi is going to be difficult for it to switch into. anyway, back on track, celebi is probably the easiest pokemon to switch in on this entire team. it has resistances to some of the most common attacking types (electric, ground, water) and has ridiculous amounts of bulk, as well as recover.

    that's all i'm going to say i guess. i mean no offense to the people who posted these teams, i am just trying to make a point here... i mean, neither of these teams were initially posted to be showcased, only rated, so it isn't strange that they have their problems, but i mean, the problems are obvious, and the teams in their current forms could be dramatically improved, so why do they belong in the showcase?
     
  2. Archerknight

    Archerknight Legends

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    The criteria was that it had to be quite good. We're updating the showcase at the moment. At the start, we were being less selective as there weren't that many tiers and we wanted to aim for 5 teams in each tier. However, now it has appeared we need to be more selective so we are removing the not-so-top teams.

    We'll have a look at the teams closer, thanks for pointing this out.
     
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2011
  3. -Manaphy--

    -Manaphy-- Overconsumption

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    I noticed this for GSC too; I think all of the GSC teams were in the showcase.
    Anyway thanks for looking into it.
     
  4. shrapn3l

    shrapn3l Member

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    honestly, there are so few teams that are advisable to use in gsc anymore, i would prefer it if there were no showcase for that gen... everyone is going to end up using the same teams, i'd rather people stumble upon them themselves. it isn't like there is a lot to choose from anyway. there's not much wiggle room.
     
  5. borat

    borat Member

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    Stick to what you know.

    Not saying you're wrong.

    Not saying you're right.

    Just stick to what you know.
     
  6. shrapn3l

    shrapn3l Member

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    i know i am correct, so how's that? i don't know if you've seen people playing in gsc tournaments on PO (actually i know you have) but it's not pretty at all, and they are going to jump on whatever actually good teams are put up anywhere, and there is going to be very little deviation. i am not suggesting that it is impossible for a good player to make and win with an interesting team (although in gsc, it's not quite as likely), but most players are bad. i'm not some fresh face here or anything. i've been playing gsc for 7ish years. i've played with and beaten "the best" on occasion. i even read your silly guides! so i know everything. and i've seen gsc turn to shit recently. honestly i do not care what happens because i am probably not going to play gsc anymore. but if you want it to stay somewhat fun and variable i suggest you heed my advice!
     
  7. borat

    borat Member

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    Players on PO are bad. Smogon's better, but that isn't saying much. You rarely see a remotely entertaining battle anymore. GSC turned to shit "recently"? What constitutes non-shit? And what constitutes recently? Out of all the players I've played in the past 2-3 years or so, only Floppy/EW/nitro were the players I actually enjoyed playing. Maybe vil. And even GP if he didn't whine so much. The rest of them blew. Creativity-wise, play-wise, what have you. It's not about fun anymore, it's all about MUST WIN WITH BEST.

    But then again, going back a bit further, to early Smogon days (6 years or so), that list doesn't exactly grow. If I were lenient, I'd tack on goof/bob, but those are questionable additions as well. Going back even more, say 8 years or so, tbh, everyone sucked. But everyone sucked to similar degrees such that it wasn't shit, but in reality looking back, it was all shit. No wonder it was so easy to go on 100+ win streaks.

    And if you can remember back "7ish years", maybe you're mind's filtered out shit battles, but man, there were tons of shit battles. Look at DP, BW, there's still tons of shit battles. Bad players will always outnumber good players to some absurd degree.

    And those that jump on GSC only for the sake of a GSC PO tourney are probably the worst players of the bunch. And least entertaining of all. Are you really basing everything you see based on the least legitimate form of "competitive" play, which is really just "record whoring tourney wins" for some obscure unexplainable brief moment of "e-fame".

    The "top BW/DP players" playing GSC, making tons of misplays subsequently bitching and blaming the gen, makes me want to stab a laughing baby. And I like laughing babies.
     
  8. shrapn3l

    shrapn3l Member

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    well, i still enjoyed playing gsc up until this past year. after hp zap/kou got unbanned i had to make a new team with snorlax and raikou on it, and it's the only team i've been using, and i don't enjoy using it. - _ - it seems you've been disgruntled for much longer than i have. i apologize. i feel like you sort of are agreeing with me in a roundabout way though, so right on.
     
  9. borat

    borat Member

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    Not fully, I'm saying GSC is not too much different than it was in the past. Most players still suck, but the only difference is, the better players (me) are more open about what they (he) use(s) now.

    The "good" teams you do see, are just -a few small changes, +a few small changes of what I made, so of course it's going to be stale and "not much wiggle room". It's me playing myself, and I'm prejudice to what's good and what's not. That's why the meta has gone from its most stally-era of 2004-2007, to a more "balanced" meta you see today. Maybe even tipped the scale the other way.

    There would be more teams to choose from if a truly good player with a different mindset than me begins legitimately diving into the realms of GSC, then they might make something good that's entirely different that I would've never thought of before. That's why it's not too enjoyable when everyone just agrees with me, since that does absolutely nothing for GSC. I attack the game a certain way, and as a result, the teams I make are a certain way. Even if I try to actively try and change my mindset, what I end up making is something I'll innately believe is inferior, because that's not my thinking.

    If that makes sense.

    So it's stupid that I end up pushing for both offensive and defensive side of GSC to keep it moving along.
     
  10. shrapn3l

    shrapn3l Member

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    oh i know it's not TOO much different, i just think there is even less to choose from now. and that really bothers me. i'd rather just play adv ~_~

    also i highly doubt there are going to be any dramatic changes to gsc ever again. there's no reason for people to NOT use the same teams. you can't argue with results! and these guys that are just trying to get some wins don't really care about keeping things fresh. gsc is still new to them anyway..
     
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2011
  11. borat

    borat Member

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    Less to choose from in the sense that the inferior teams for the most part have been eliminated. Teams are slightly better as a whole, but less teams as a whole as well. No more Kingdras on standard teams, fewer Zams, no more random Golems, Rhydons, Muks, etc. that's what I mean by people taking GSC too hardcore and just "whoring wins" instead of playing it casually an for entertainment.

    Here's a visual:
    Code (text):
    1.  
    2. Before range of teams on bad-good scale
    3. |<============================================>          |
    4.  
    5. Now
    6. |                     <================================> |
    The first 2 weeks of GSC on PO, there were plenty of teams because people didn't know better. Went like 120-2 or something.
     
  12. shrapn3l

    shrapn3l Member

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    no more pursuit tauroses either i hope! naturally people are going to slowly realize what's good and what's bad, but if you give them the blueprints to a solid gsc team they aren't even going to try. you're decreasing the likelihood that anyone is going to come up with anything new and good by telling them all what a good team is, because they can already win easily without having to think up something for themselves.