[HGSS] Unbans

Discussion in 'Past Gens Discussion' started by yiran, Mar 19, 2011.

  1. yiran

    yiran Become a Magical Girl!

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    In Generation 4, many of the Ubers aren't very "good".

    I think some pokemon should be reconsidered.

    First of all, I don't believe Wynaut should be banned at all. There's just no reason.
    I don't even think Wobbuffet should be banned. In Generation 5, it is relegated to the depths of LU - I don't think it would be so overpowered in Generation 4.
    Also, Deoxys-D isn't that powerful either. It sure has quite some support moves and Recover, but I'd probably use Cresselia over it due to Lunar Dance.

    Anyways, a mod please lock this if this needs approval or something else :x.

    Discuss about what other pokemon should be unbanned, or talk about how you agree or disagree with my ideas.
     
  2. Crystal Moogle

    Crystal Moogle Ayaya~ Administrator Administrator

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    iirc
    Wynaut isn't actually banned on PO.
    Just saying.
     
  3. yiran

    yiran Become a Magical Girl!

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    Found out something really interesting.

    I made a team of Wynaut, Wobbuffet, Deoxys, Deoxys-D, Deoxys-A, and Deoxys-S.

    They are all valid Little Cup candidates.

    *facepalm*

    The team is automatically set to little cup. Crystal please check the tiers :x
     
  4. Harry

    Harry Banned

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    lol. I have argued for this for a while. I want latias and salamence back in Gen 4. But it's really hard to do that. Wob is really very broken though.. in gen 5 there are pokemon that can set up on it, but in gen 4 it really is a free kill, or 2. =/
     
  5. Crystal Moogle

    Crystal Moogle Ayaya~ Administrator Administrator

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    Give them moves :x
     
  6. zeroality

    zeroality Artificial Insanity

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    I would support Latias and Salamence unbans 100%.

    Stall is too predominant now, and we need those two stall breakers back in the game.
     
  7. yiran

    yiran Become a Magical Girl!

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    I tried. Wynaut is apparently BL.

    Anyways, I really think we should consider Wobbuffet and Deoxys-D. Wobbuffet should not be that powerful if Salamence and Latias come back, and Deoxys-D just isn't broken ._.
     
  8. Crystal Moogle

    Crystal Moogle Ayaya~ Administrator Administrator

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    Yeah I said Wynaut wasn't banned :x
     
  9. zeroality

    zeroality Artificial Insanity

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    I'd be opposed to Wobbuffet, but dunno about Deoxys-D.

    It was a menace in ADV but I guess there'd be enough hard hitters in Gen 4 to take it down. It would still be a prominent defensive force though, even more so than Cresselia imo.

    It has Recover as opposed to Moonlight and also gets Cosmic Power to turn it into a total defensive beast. Not to mention the useful Stealth Rock and Spikes that Cresselia lacks. Let's not forget Taunt, Trick, Torment, Thunder Wave, Knock Off, and the gimmick Snatch. Of those, Trick and Thunder Wave are the only ones Cresselia gets.

    I think you are severely underrating Deoxys-D in your posts. Not sure if I'd support an unban.

    Wobbuffet definitely not.
     
  10. fidgety

    fidgety Active Member

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    i'ld say latias definitely for an unban the only issue with mence is for a balanced meta we need stall around thus clauses to limit mixmence which is 1 more work for coyo and the programing crew and 2 an ugly double standard that should never be set.

    keep wobb where it is without the debuff to encore in gen 5 it does team support too well.

    deoxys-d is just capable of too much in the walling department with an enormous defensive movepool.

    also ubers are independent of usage in ubers as it is a ban list so i'ld reccomend editing the intro to the thread to make it seem less like it isn't used in ubers so it should be ou.
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2011
  11. Harry

    Harry Banned

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    Not only is stall dominating the metagame, but Heatran/Shaymin is so incredibly overused, and there are very few pokemon that get the coverage to kill them with the power to OHKO/2hko. It's really goddamn annoying >.>
     
  12. fidgety

    fidgety Active Member

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    while i'm not entirely sure that this was directed at me, but you don't think i know that how annoying stall is; first battle with a new team stupid scarmbliss is, i couldn't do a thing because i didn't have my mixed attacker/powerful lo abuser (i personally like heatran for this role but i hate how it's gotten so insanely common).
     
  13. yiran

    yiran Become a Magical Girl!

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    Also, why not let Wynaut (pun!) out of BL? I don't think it would be broken in UU...
     
  14. Wander

    Wander Shitty Wizard

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    Even though I don't play Gen4 anymore, ^This
     
  15. -Manaphy--

    -Manaphy-- Overconsumption

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    I really don't see a reason to unban Latias at all. I wouldn't really mind if you unbanned Salamence, but Latias seems like a no-no.
     
  16. yiran

    yiran Become a Magical Girl!

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    We don't have a resident Special Dragon that can break to Skarmory easily (although Salamence can carry Fire Blast, or simply go special, to fulfull that role). There are some viable walls that can wall, say, Latias, like Blissey, Cresselia, and even Snorlax.

    Plus, I see how Deoxys-D can be better than Cresselia, but I don't see why it deserves a ban.
     
  17. Blue Harvest

    Blue Harvest Banned

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    Blissey is ruined if it gets tricked, and most teams can't just slap Blissey on without losing offensive tempo.
    Cresselia is garbage, and runs significant risk of being 2HKOed with some prior damage
    Snorlax decent, but still takes a massive hit. Unlike the other two he can't heal without Rest/Talk

    I'm inclined to say 4th gen is pretty much over at this point and that we shouldn't be worried about this when there are more pressing matters in 5th gen. 4th gen isn't really "stall dominant" any more than it always was. Latias if anything helped stall and Salamence was possible to work around (though it was difficult).

    Also we have a Special Attacking Dragon. Kingdra. Modest Kingdra has more Special Attack than Timid Latios (and STAB Surf!). Its also great at luring in stuff like Gyarados and Skarmory and eliminating them.
     
  18. fidgety

    fidgety Active Member

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    it isn't completely over i still see plenty of people on the ladder all the time and lol no a + nature base 100 (kingdra is a 95) have less than a neutral 115 (latios is a 130) and kingdra needs to outspeed heatran unless it likes dying to dragon pulse/explosion.

    and stall really struggled (more like borderline dissapeared) with mixmence hitting everything for neutral or better and 1-2hkoing with the appropriate move. also there is this thing called a trick absorber to help with latias (not that common atm but latias could change that).
     
  19. Blue Harvest

    Blue Harvest Banned

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    Ops, I meant Latias. Latios should never be allowed in 4th gen OU.

    Ok, Kingdra has two points less Special Attack but its STAB Surf hits a ton harder and Specs Hydro Pump leaves it pretty much no safe long term switch ins besides Blissey. Anyway I'm not trying to say Kingdra is better just that whoever said there are no Special Attacking Dragons in OU is wrong. (theres also Dragonite!)

    Edit: No stall didn't disappear, Earthworm, Taylor and IPl all continues to leaderboard with Salamence. Saying Salamence fully defeats stall is ridiculous.
     
  20. Groudon Ramsay

    Groudon Ramsay Active Member

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    Gen 4 OU is balanced as it is right now... lets not fuck it up again. Besides, did you guys already forget how fun it was to switch your Swampert into a MixMence Draco Meteor because you were scared of a DD Mence sweep? ... Lets leave both of them banned.
     
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2011
  21. fidgety

    fidgety Active Member

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    i never said entirely i said borderline which is accurate only the best kept on using stall meaning it wasn't wholly viable. then there is the matter of modest means less useful against faster offensive teams due to being outsped by almost everthing. also there only 1 that is 100 or better and it's attack is the definition of lackluster.

    @koko there was never conclusive proof in latias' case the shift followed mence's ban but latias there was a minor one so it is plausible that it would fit into a balanced meta.
     
  22. Gerard

    Gerard Member

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    How is mew in Gen 4, i mean, he was UU in this gen, so is he that broken in Gen 4?
     
  23. fidgety

    fidgety Active Member

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    100 across the board was a lot better then than it is now and with the ability to pass +2 whatever, yah save smeargle a slot, need an nasty plot passer or an amnesiac, an iron defense/rock polish (though why is my question there is this wonderful thing called ninjask) user with a fighting resist, or even swords dance.

    or it uses the fact that it has the second largest movepool in the game to sweep and you don't even know what is coming untill after it is too late.

    the sheer versatility of it is why it is uber.
     
  24. Legiticals

    Legiticals New Member

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    I hate how people QQ about stall when there is nothing to cry about. A metagame with Salamence and Latias sucked ass. It was all about having resistances to Dragon and was way too offensive. The current stall breakers work fine, you just don't know how to use them.
     
  25. fidgety

    fidgety Active Member

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    strange how as i pointed out already in this thread there is no conclusive evidence that latias was the main reason the metagame was so offensive, compared to the shift occurred after mence was banned latias' banning had 0 impact at all, honsetly if smogon hadn't delared gen 4 ou suspect closed latias might have gotten a retest as the shift following mence's banning proved that it was centralizing the tier and therefore latias may not have been.
     
  26. champagne papi

    champagne papi if young tokyo tom don't trust you...

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    Calm Mind Latias with the right moves is incredibly hard to counter. Along with its Dragon move, it can get Tbolt for Waters, Grass Knot for TTar, HP Fire/Fight for random steels, etc. Those without Recover are trully unwallable, meaning only random stuff like ScarfTar can kill it. Latias is broken seriously :/

    Oh and for Mew its ban is arguable. Baton Pass was one of the best move in Adv, and the fact it got Nasty Plot to pass scared a lot of people.
    We all know what happened to bpass in gen 4, so Mew could probably be tested back in OU IMO.
     
  27. fidgety

    fidgety Active Member

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    toxic + blissey you know the most common special wall in the game (252/4 is only 2hko'd at +5) specially defensive snorlax at +4, specially defensive tyranitar isn't 2hko'd by surf at +2, who the heck used hp fighting since se hp fighting hits for all of 5 points more than neutral dragon pulse and it is neutral on skarm, forry, and zong, so no it isn't unwallable.
     
  28. Legiticals

    Legiticals New Member

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    Choice Specs Latias destroys so much stuff. Calcs using Modest 252 SpA Latias.

    Draco Meteor vs. 248/0 Scizor 58.6% - 69.1%
    Draco Meteor vs. 248/48 Swampert 85.9% - 101.2%
    Draco Meteor vs. 252/216+ Swampert 65.6% - 77.5%
    Draco Meteor vs. 248/8 Gyarados 84.2% - 99.5%
    Draco Meteor vs. 0/4- Heatran 54.5% - 64.1%
    Draco Meteor vs. 0/0 Metagross 60.5% - 71.4%
    Draco Meteor vs. 252/0 Metagross 50% - 59.1%
    Draco Meteor vs. 252/240+ Skarmory 45.8% - 53.9%
    Draco Meteor vs. 252/0 Skarmory 67.1% - 79%

    All you need to do is to weaken checks with Stealth Rock.
     
  29. champagne papi

    champagne papi if young tokyo tom don't trust you...

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    Who uses specially defensive ttar :/
    Skarm forry and Zong all get HP Fire'd.
    Blissey is owned by refresh, while Snorlax is seen with Attack EVs in Choice Band version most of the time
     
  30. at ease

    at ease New Member

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    I'm pretty neutral to the idea of a mence unban but please, PLEASE don't unban Latias. That is one of the most monotonous metagames I've ever played. Latias is horribly broken.
     
  31. fidgety

    fidgety Active Member

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    @legiticals a number of those are best case scenario 3hkos (specially defensive skarm, metagross, tran, specially defensive pert) due to SAtk drops from dm.
     
  32. Legiticals

    Legiticals New Member

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    Have you ever heard of residual damage and getting checks/counters down to a certain amount of health? All you have to do is use Stealth Rock and a scout and checks can easily be removed. What about double switching? Chances are the opponent will switch to something in attempt to remove Latias. The next time Latias is switched in, you can easily predict their switch and kill their check. This is very possible as Latias has a large movepool.

    Latias @ Choice Specs
    Modest Nature
    4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
    -Draco Meteor
    -Dragon Pulse
    -Surf
    -Hidden Power Fire / Trick
     
  33. Gerard

    Gerard Member

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    I don't know about Latias, since i didn't play Gen 4 before Gen 5, but with Stall "reingning" OU as it is, then Mew has not that many options to BP, without being roared (and even then, whatever he passes can be walled consistently), he can Taunt which would really help braking stall, and he doesn't even have a reliable sleeping move (or ingrain) like smeargle, and with stuff like ScarfTar in the tier i don't even thing he is THAT powerful, a test a think would be ok, since if he proves to be broken, then Uber, if not, you get a new (positive) element in the metagame, being able to Taunt+BP is great, but that lets you be walled by dark pokes (of ghosts if you go Aura Sphere), that if you taunt, you get attacked, and if you BP, they get a sub (gengar), or DD, SD, etc...
     
  34. Kinfinity

    Kinfinity Member

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    Latias and salamence should be OU. I would also like to see manaphy in OU too because it rarely gets used in uber.
     
  35. Prinny

    Prinny New Member

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    I conquer with Kinfinity. Well halfway.

    Manaphy and Salamence wipe away too much of the current metagame. However, Latias makes for a wall severly outclassed by a few in OU, so long as it isn't holding a Soul Dew.
     
  36. mael

    mael np: diary

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    seriously guys, dont unban latias
    i am one of the most gen 4 ou laddering people around and i know how it woud break the metagame if latias is back. CM latias is even on gen 5 broken i wont start talking about gen 4.
    And i wouldnt mind salamence back in gen 4 ou since it is countered b cresselia checken by weavile mamoswine pert etc
    and it would not centralize the metagame i dont think it would get higher usage than heatran
    one thing i dont know why it is uber is Manaphy
    Same base stats as celebi and jirachi has, and it has a poor movepool
    tail glow makes it kinda hard to beat but blissey still walls it and it can get revenged easily by stuff like specsraikou lol or jolteon or any stronger electric or grass attack
    even jirachi is more broken than manaphy

    another thing i could imagine in ou is wobba
    it makes the metagame more funny because you have to rely on predicts and this stuff
    also its a pretty nice adition to stall teams

    Mew in OU would make the metagame more than only boring
    It has a movepool that is unbelieveable and it stats are ok
    you cannot know the set before its too late and it has no counters
    the only check it has is scarfttar

    Deoxys D in OU is kinda dumb. There is nothing that can kill it trust me. And it has a great deffensive movepool. The stats doesnt make it broken, its the movepool. Cresselia would be OU too if it has recover and hazards believe me. It can also have a sweep easily because of 90 base speed (Lucario has the same dont forget) and Calm Mind which can boost its medicore attack stats



    all in all
    Latias
    Salamence /
    Manaphy +
    Wobba +
    Mew -
    Deoxys D -


    oh and we should unban mewtwo
     
  37. Whereabouts Unknown

    Whereabouts Unknown Absolutely Stunning Forum Moderator Channel Leader Forum Moderator Channel Leader

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    koko and tempt stated my thoughts throughly.

    The only, only, only mon that was banned in the evolution of the metagame I would not mind seeing back in OU too much is Mence, due to similarities to Dragonite, who is balanced enough in OU. The only difference is Mence does more on the special side and hits a screwton of speed after a DD and that it can't take weak Ice Beams like Nite can.

    Latias would seriously throw off the metagame, in particular Shaymin / Heatran / Infernape would drop in use and Weavile and Umbreon might see the light of OU again. I don't think there are any particularly broken Latias sets, but the metagame's perfectly balanced without it, so why rock the boat?

    Wobbufet and Deoxys-D and Mew I'm very opposed to, the first two simply because they could screw over way too many otherwise viable sweepers and unbalance the metagame. Again, rocking a boat that's on the right current. Mew I mainly don't want to see here because of Baton Pass. Gliscor is enough >_>

    what else.... Manaphy? I don't understand how this could possibly be considered in OU.... it's a Celebi with tenfold better typing and access to instant full Recovery. Not to mention it gets great coverage in only two attacks.

    I like the metagame the way it is. Perhaps an experimental past tier would be fun to play around in, but competitively, the way it is is much more comfortable. I'd take the boring old Shaymin/Heatran/Starmie crap over perpetual impending death by mons 100% counters.
     
  38. mael

    mael np: diary

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    you have to set up rain to get instant recovery so you waste at least 1 turn, and celebi has much better movepool, and it has by far more than one set, while the only playable manaphy set the Tail Glow set is, well CM might work too but its pretty the same isnt it?
     
  39. Fakes

    Fakes Member

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    Slamence should be Uber
    in my land Garchomp is OU but one rule to use it: No SS+Chomp
    so i would think Garchomp can go to Ou the rule to using it that you can´t pair it with TTar or Hippo
    all in all gen 4 don´t need other pokes nao it is very balanced and good so
     
  40. mael

    mael np: diary

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    fakes dein englisch ist schlecht

    Pokemon online does only simple bans, so its not gonna ban garchomp + sandstream. And i dont think its gonna be unbanned anyway
    also give me reason why salamence should be uber ;)