[ADV] regarding OHKO ban for Adv tiers

Discussion in 'Past Gens Discussion' started by zeroality, Feb 15, 2011.

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  1. Eternal

    Eternal こんにちは。

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    OHKO moves are banned for ADV tiers now right?

    If not, I must spam Mind Reader Articuno!
     
  2. zeroality

    zeroality Artificial Insanity

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    They're not.
     
  3. Blue Harvest

    Blue Harvest Banned

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    Nah, use Rest / Sleep Talk / Fissure / Sheer Cold Walrein!
     
  4. coyotte508

    coyotte508 Well-Known Member Administrator Server Owner Administrator Server Owner

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    Be my guest. You'll surely find it harder than you make it sound.
     
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2011
  5. shrapn3l

    shrapn3l Member

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    Who even uses OHKO moves? If anyone goes into a tournament banking on OHKOs to win them the game, they aren't going to get very far. If it doesn't give someone an unfair advantage against better players, and it isn't already a problem, why is it even being discussed? Evasion is much more foolproof and easy to abuse than ohko moves, because either you're using mind read+ohko, which is crap, because both have crappy pp and the opponent can still switch anyway, and you may end up getting killed by like tyranitar or something before you even get a chance to use mind reader then sheer cold (for example), which is why evasion is claused. Evasion is not a coinflip. It is nigh impossible to hit someone after they get a few Double Teams set up, and you can't do much of anything about it after they do set it up (I think haze and perish song are your only options? or like aerial ace salamence or something worthless like that). On the other hand, there is a 30% chance you are going to hit at ALL with a OHKO move, and mind reader doesn't make a bit of difference because people CAN switch, and if you're thinking of trap-passing, it's a much better idea to just pass to a straight up counter to the opponents trapped pokemon than relying on a crappy articuno to mind reader and then sheer cold everything. OHKO moves are bad, and they provide at least as many disadvantages for the user as advantages. Anyone that uses them with serious intentions of winning consistently IS AN OAF. OHKO moves were sort of threatening in RBY and were viable in GSC (because pokemon live forever in GSC), but in RSE and beyond, they aren't worth it, and anyone that doesn't see that is probably going to lose to a good player with or without the help of OHKO moves. Also, "hax items" are just as inconsistent, and also have sort of a broad scope. It's stupid to generalize them because they have many different effects and some are much more useful than others (quick claw!), but most of them are really bad and none of them are even close to "broken." But I was never a fan of grouping all of these items together because it's kind of an arbitrary grouping. Finally, evasion moves have been banned since like EARLY RBY, and I have sort of already explained why... and I doubt that ban is ever going to be lifted in any gen because there isn't really anything they can do to balance evasion moves. But this topic isn't really about those things I guess. Yeah. OHKOs suck. Don't bother banning them. Don't even bother using them please.
     
  6. Meteor64

    Meteor64 TM1337 Falcon Punch

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    I don't think anyone who does use them will win consistently. But in single matches...
    Imagine if you got knocked out of the first round of a tourney by some dude with a Fissure Donphan or something. You could argue "well normal hax is just as bad, and nobody has a crit clause yet, whats the problem?", but at the end of the day, that guy opted to go for an OHKO move. Sure, he wont go far in the tournament, but he took you out. Hes gone and removed a better player by not even trying to play properly, rather relying on luck.
    Don't give the noobs the chance to fuck you off. Thats all I'm saying.
     
  7. shrapn3l

    shrapn3l Member

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    honestly, it doesn't really make a difference if you ban them or not, as far as i'm concerned. you may as well, i guess. i just don't want anybody to be under the impression that they are "good"
     
  8. Ginku

    Ginku Member

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    This.
    The point was never that they are too good if you use them but rather that they can be too "destructive" if used against you. It doesn't matter that someone lost 9/10 of his games with his OHKO moves because he won the last one by pure luck.

    But yea nothing's gonna change anyway so what ever.
     
  9. coyotte508

    coyotte508 Well-Known Member Administrator Server Owner Administrator Server Owner

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    I'm sure you lose 1/10 of your games because of crits which are pure luck too.

    The point is, not a single case of OHKO abuse was reported in Adv so there's no point in banning it. Even then, i'm not sure it'd get banned either.
     
  10. Ginku

    Ginku Member

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    More actually (including tings like para and misses), but in that case it's just what the game is like. If I lose to OHKO moves however, my opponent could choose to try and win something even less probable than a coinflip while I was left with watching and hoping he doesn't get lucky enough.
    I guess then that's how it is. I'd still prefer having them banned but since hardly anyone even plays the tier and even less are..well even less use OHkO moves it doesn't matter too much I suppose.
     
  11. Blue Harvest

    Blue Harvest Banned

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    I managed to get one game against someone who is pretty high on the Smogon ADV leaderboard. Hes MUCH better then I am (but that isn't saying much because I suck at ADV). I used Rest/Talk Lapras and Walrein, both with Sheer Cold. Within the first couple turns both Zapdos and Celebi were dead to Sheer Cold (2 of 2 hit) and I won (he had nothing left to stop Starmie and quit when his last poke Suicune was left against Lapras). I tried to get more battles but the ladder really is dead here (its active on Smogon but they banned OHKO moves).

    Since Coyotte isn't listening to what the majority of players want about OHKOs why not just start an ADV tournament, and encourage players to use OHKO moves and see how many battles are unfairly won.
     
  12. Meteor64

    Meteor64 TM1337 Falcon Punch

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    :/

    And Blue Harvest has just gone and proved what we were saying, btw.
     
  13. coyotte508

    coyotte508 Well-Known Member Administrator Server Owner Administrator Server Owner

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    So should we ban Slash users, as well as Focus Energy? Because Focus Energy is pure luck... Should we also ban Super Luck on pokémon who have another ability, because after all the users opted for Super Luck?

    BH you got really lucky it doesn't prove any brokeness.
     
  14. Blue Harvest

    Blue Harvest Banned

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    9% chance that both my Sheer Colds hit. 30% that one will hit. 51% chance that one of two will hit. Do you know how many turns Lapras and Walrein were able to get? Its not that these moves just do damage, they kill. IIRC the only sturdy users in ADV were Skarmory and Forretress both of which are viciously raped by Magneton (or repeated Surfs / Ice Beam).

    Super Luck isn't broken because the Pokemon that get it get.. what, Night Slash? I think the crit rate for those Pokemon caps at 33% anyway. The difference is a critical hit does x2 damage. a OHKO is an instant kill.
     
  15. Meteor64

    Meteor64 TM1337 Falcon Punch

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    At no point have we said it is broken.

    edit: I lie, I said Mind Reader Articuno was a handful. And it is, because even if you switch out, there's still a 30% chance you get obliterated.


    Super Luck is irrelevant, this topic is about Adv.

    And tbh, yes we should ban Focus Energy and CH moves. The only reason to use Slash and Focus Energy over other moves is to force hax.
     
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2011
  16. zeroality

    zeroality Artificial Insanity

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    We can endlessly debate this but it's not going to change anything.

    If you really do want OHKOs banned in ADV then run a test or find evidence that testing has been done previously (such as on Smogon) to prove that it is actually broken and does need to be banned - as has been stated several times already in this thread.
     
  17. Meteor64

    Meteor64 TM1337 Falcon Punch

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    Its not broken!
    That's not what we're saying!
    We're saying it introduces a reliance upon luck to win the match- that's not competitive play.
     
  18. shrapn3l

    shrapn3l Member

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    who switches celebi and zapdos into lapras anyway? what the shit

    also it's so stupid. nobody was even paying attention to OHKO moves. why was this even brought up? i don't see why everything has to be done with a test. nobody that's good wants to put OHKO moves on their team, because they're going to win more consistently without them! testing with people who are bad at the game doesn't make any sense. as far as ADV goes, there are people that just have a greater knowledge of the game at this point and know what's best for the metagame. it's not like ADV is a developing game like DP was and like BW is. you don't need to "suspect test" everything. if you want to ban them just ban them. who gives a shit what the scrubs say? since when is pokemon about keeping everyone happy? in the days of yore when netbattle was still young, there were giant clan servers that actually DISALLOWED people from using snorlax and blissey, and they were often FULL OF PEOPLE. just because a lot of people that don't know shit about the game want something done doesn't mean it should be. i think you know what's going to happen if you suspect test OHKO moves. i know i won't be complaining if OHKO moves get banned.
     
  19. Meteor64

    Meteor64 TM1337 Falcon Punch

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    BH, mind providing us with a log? Might explain why celebi/zapdos switched in, to satisfy shrapnel (and me):P
     
  20. M Dragon

    M Dragon Active Member

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    OHKO moves have always been banned in ADV. I dont see why they should be allowed now.
     
  21. Blue Harvest

    Blue Harvest Banned

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    I don't remember how the battle went except that 2/2 Sheer Colds hit and took out his Celebi / Zapdos. Ice Beam 3HKOs both Pokemon while Celebi can stall it out and Zapdos can 2HKO. Anyhow it could have been any damn thing that Sheer Cold hit, my point was despite my extreme incompetence at ADV I won against a player far superior to me. I don't have a log of that battle but I guess I'll try to collect more battles.

    Anyhow the people have spoken about what they want, yet Coyotte for some reason decided to ignore that. I don't understand the logic that alienating the player base is a good idea but if any of you ADV players want this changed come back with logs of OHKOs changing the outcome of battles. I'll try to get logs but the ladder is completely inactive..
     
  22. zeroality

    zeroality Artificial Insanity

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    Aside from isolated battles, there's nothing here that has conclusively proven that OHKOs need to be banned other than the "they've always been banned" argument.

    As seeing this isn't going anywhere, I'm going to go ahead and lock.

    If someone wants to run a test or finds evidence of a previous suspect test elsewhere then feel free to VM or PM me to reopen discussion on the issue.

    But overall, OHKOs aren't an issue because nobody really uses them.
     
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