[ADV] regarding OHKO ban for Adv tiers

Discussion in 'Past Gens Discussion' started by zeroality, Feb 15, 2011.

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  1. zeroality

    zeroality Artificial Insanity

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    Currently there is no OHKO ban for Advance tiers. I think it needs to be banned here as well.

    Agree/disagree?
     
  2. imperfectluck

    imperfectluck New Member

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    Considering that a Pokemon such as Lapras can sit there and spam Sheer Colds all match long, I would agree.
     
  3. Professor Oak

    Professor Oak same Forum Administrator Server Owner Social Media Rep Forum Administrator Server Owner Social Media Rep

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    Agreed.

    ...

    This is completely a filler sentence so that it looks like I'm contributing more than I actually am. Isn't it cool?

    Seriously though, the addition of Sheer Cold in ADV made OHKOs stronger, as there isn't a Pokemon that is immune to Sheer Cold (outside of Sturdy).
     
  4. coyotte508

    coyotte508 Well-Known Member Administrator Server Owner Administrator Server Owner

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    But Mind Reader/Sheer Cold Articuno so cool... Do you really want to ban it? And do you really think OHKOs are broken?
     
  5. eric the espeon

    eric the espeon is an espeon.

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    I suggest leaving it unbanned until it is proven broken, or at the very least severely problematic. Bans should have strong reasons in all cases.
     
  6. zeroality

    zeroality Artificial Insanity

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    There's no way to really 'test' the brokeness of OHKOs because very very few people play OU Adv at any given time. Moreover, who the hell wants to sit and battle all day spamming OHKO moves?

    It was played for years on NetBattle and practically every respectable community had an OHKO ban. If that's not a "strong reason" then I don't know what is, other than forcing more people to play OU Adv with OHKOs to prove something that most of us know is a fact.

    To test something that's already been analyzed and discussed years ago just to prove that it's still true is a bit silly, don't you think?

    I can understand testing stuff for 4th/5th gens when they come up but we really should stick to tried and true methods when it comes to RBY/GSC/Adv as all the work has been done already.

    Yeah, I guess that statement hurts my case for RBY Wrap/Bind but whatever. I stand by it.
     
  7. [LD]Jirachier

    [LD]Jirachier RAGE Server Administrator Developer Server Administrator Developer

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    Banning OHKO from all tiers would be better, seriously.
     
  8. M Dragon

    M Dragon Active Member

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    I agree with this.
     
  9. Jules

    Jules i make you MANGRY

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    ohko needs to be banned.
    theres just no getting around it.
     
  10. coyotte508

    coyotte508 Well-Known Member Administrator Server Owner Administrator Server Owner

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    Did anyone abuse ohkos against you guys?
     
  11. Ginku

    Ginku Member

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    I don't think it's a matter of it being abused/broken but rather of the completely random nature of OHKO moves, not needing any skill to use and still having the potential to win a match alone. It's very similar to inconsistent; I'm pretty sure many people who wanted to ban it didn't want to because it was broken/unbeatable but rather because it was so random.


    No this is not similar to Shandera at all, just for the record.
     
  12. coyotte508

    coyotte508 Well-Known Member Administrator Server Owner Administrator Server Owner

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    But it's banning something who has not even been proven unhealthy, it's taking preventive unjustified measures.
     
  13. eric the espeon

    eric the espeon is an espeon.

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    I never suggested testing it. Just that we should only be banning things which are actually a problem. The fact that things have been banned in the past by other communities is a simple appeal to tradition, it adds no support to your conclusion that OHKOes are better off banned, unless those communities actually tested OHKOes themselves. Which as far as I know is not the case, but if I am wrong then please say. If the older communities have in fact tested and found OHKOes to be a real problem (not just a "ew he used OHKOes, he's a noob" thing) then it changes my feelings on the matter.

    I do not suggest testing OHKOes, but if some people wish to add a ban then surely it makes sense for them to have to show that said ban actually makes the metagame better in some notable way? For those who just say ban it, come on. Back your statements up with a little reasoning, it's not that hard.
     
  14. Erebos

    Erebos Banned

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    You can't ask the people who never played ADV and are now engrossed with 5th gen to seriously stop and come up with arguments for something they don't have the slightest clue about and the slightest interest in. The people who did play adv posted, and most of them want OHKO banned.

    Also, I thought it was decided that we won't try and re-make all the metagames of the past from scratch, because that will take too much time and effort. I think we should just fall back to what is accepted by most people in the world in this; It was decided in the past that OHKO moves should be banned from ADV tiers, and people play with the ADV tiers that were formed this way. If you intend to re-create the ADV metagame from scratch, why don't you also start supporting the unbanning of Kyogre, Groudon and company? There is no valid argument against it other than "they were deemed broken in the past by the people who formed the metagame" either.
     
  15. coyotte508

    coyotte508 Well-Known Member Administrator Server Owner Administrator Server Owner

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    Except back in NB there were a lot of different players and sure smogon did ban OHKO clause in its tournaments, doesn't mean all players played with it on, there was nothing official in NB servers as there were no tiers, just a list of uber pokemon which everyone accepted as the ubers. You could see a lot of double team ninjasks or stuff like that that were easily smashed, same with OHKO teams, and a lot of battles didn't have those clause enabled, and if you faced someone with OHKOs well you just battled him in order to keep your W/L ratio. This is the reason why I didn't understand the OHKO ban in 4th gen, but i accept it as it was somehow official.

    Regarding GSC, GSC is so stallish that allowing OHKOs would considerably change the metagame, and make a huge lot more pokemon usable as things like Fissure or Horn Drill were TMs. Plus there was no stuff like Sturdy Skarmory. It would change the face of GSC, for the better or worse, that's why it was kept banned in GSC.
     
  16. Erebos

    Erebos Banned

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    So just because back in NB most servers were just disorganised, does that mean that we forgo all structure? If we're going by that, then we might as well make just one tier called "ADV" and play in the way you just described.
     
  17. coyotte508

    coyotte508 Well-Known Member Administrator Server Owner Administrator Server Owner

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    Did you read my post? It means OHKO clause wasn't well established (if you argue in order to ban OHKO moves, you may as well ban Hax items as they were as frowned upon as OHKO clause on NB) whereas Pokémon bans were clearly established. What's the use of implementing a non-well established clause that haven't even proven harmful?

    Also, you complain about people having no 3rd gen experience posting but do you even have 3rd gen experience?
     
  18. Erebos

    Erebos Banned

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    I did read your post coyotte...

    You said there were no tiers. That's what I replied to. I just said that if we're going by that, then we shouldn't have any tiers either. All you're doing is picking what suits you and ignoring what doesn't...

    Also, I didn't "complain" that people have no ADV experience. I stated that most of the userbase of PO is people who never played ADV competitively and don't care about it, and that you shouldn't expect them to care about this with 5th gen out. And I include myself in that category, the only difference is that I care.

    Did you read my posts?
     
  19. coyotte508

    coyotte508 Well-Known Member Administrator Server Owner Administrator Server Owner

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    What i meant was tiers weren't builtin NB. I forgot that wasn't general knowledge, sorry for misleading you. The list of ubers was builtin NB. All the rest stands.
     
  20. Erebos

    Erebos Banned

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    Oh, I see what you mean. Well then, we could always have a small experiment, as that would be the right thing to do in these situations, but then what I said about our userbase still stands, few people will actually care enough to test the brokenness of OHKOs, which is why I proposed that going for the generally accepted solution might be better.
     
  21. coyotte508

    coyotte508 Well-Known Member Administrator Server Owner Administrator Server Owner

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    Except no one's ever had a problem with OHKOs in adv on the PO server, this complaint just comes out of the blue.
     
  22. Blue Harvest

    Blue Harvest Banned

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    Coyotte. Last month there were just 44 Advance Uber battles. Seriously lol Pineco was number 14 in usage in December. Dratini was number 16. Most of the battles probably involve noobs who don't know what tiers are. Why do you insist on leaving OHKOs unbanned when the few people who actually play this tier support them being banned?

    Not that I ever played Adv Ubers either, but from looking at this thread it seems that the few people who know what they're talking about are getting shot down because you said...

     
  23. lotuspirate

    lotuspirate New Member

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    Just posting to say that I support OHKOs being banned simply because aside from strategies like Mind Reader + Sheer Cold, it is a strategy that relies entirely on getting lucky RNG rolls and involves very little skill to execute. I respect the stance that we should actually witness them being overpowered before banning them, but realistically I don't think there is enough activity in the tier to allow for that.
     
  24. coyotte508

    coyotte508 Well-Known Member Administrator Server Owner Administrator Server Owner

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    Ok i was saying that half-jokingly. Adv Ubers has nothing to do with it, it's Adv OU we're talking about...

    And to lotuspirate, ok, but as there's never ever been any trouble in adv on PO with it there's no reason, and i'll repeat my arguments from there too.
     
  25. Blue Harvest

    Blue Harvest Banned

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    Wow, how did I miss that? Well my point still stands I guess.
     
  26. eric the espeon

    eric the espeon is an espeon.

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    No, but I can ask those who claim to care about the tier and have played it at a high level to come up with an argument rather than a simple statement of opinion. Literally none of you have remotely cogent reasoning for why OHKO should be banned (all are statements of opinion or "it was done this way before so it must be right"), with the exception of lotuspirate who argues from a stance of removing luck management for the sake of it, not actually suggesting that they are significantly harmful or indeed broken.

    If as coyotte suggests there was never an official decision and all but the ubers list was decided by social pressure rather than by actual rules (which chimes with my research of how past gens operated), this would certainly not be remaking the metagame from scratch. It would simply be taking the rules that were played by before, and dropping the social stigma of OHKOes. Then if someone can come along and show that OHKOes were indeed a problem worth banning, we would remove them. If there is not enough activity to show they are a problem on the ladder then.. they are not much of a problem on the ladder.
     
  27. zeroality

    zeroality Artificial Insanity

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    Yeah, I understand that they haven't been proven as broken on the server per se but that's only because OU Adv has been played so inconsistently that nobody has had the opportunity to sit with a team and spam OHKOs all day. As I said before, you're lucky if there are 5-8 people playing OU Adv at any given time and it is usually much less than that.

    ETE suggested I go through Smogon and see if I can find any threads where they actually discussed/tested it at length, which I will do - just haven't had the time yet. I will have to search through 71 pages of threads in their Gen 3 forum so I'll have to wait until I have a bit of free time.
     
  28. Jules

    Jules i make you MANGRY

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    sheer cold articuno, the counter to +6/+6 last poke curselax
     
  29. eric the espeon

    eric the espeon is an espeon.

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    I'm not saying it needs to be proven broken on our ladder, or even on Smogon, just that there was some real thought and testing going into it rather than going ahead and brushing off opposing arguments.
     
  30. Meteor64

    Meteor64 TM1337 Falcon Punch

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    If we've played the same rules for 5 or so years now, why change it? Obviously OHKO ws deemed unworthy for competitive play, whether it was down to hax or brokenness.

    Mind Reader Articuno is definately a reason to ban it, I remember trying to take one on on NB- without a Skarmory, you're screwed.
     
  31. zeroality

    zeroality Artificial Insanity

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    You can debate this until you're blue in the face but until you can present evidence or whatnot that OHKOs are broken in ADV, they're not getting banned.

    I haven't had time to scour through Smogon's ADV forums to see if they did ever test it or if it was just a "hey this is broken, lets ban it" thing. Feel free to do so and let us know.

    If you can find meaningful threads on the discussion, feel free to post links.
     
  32. Meteor64

    Meteor64 TM1337 Falcon Punch

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    I used the search on smogon forums and it broke. Repeatedly.
    I'm not prepared to hunt though years of posts, either.

    I found this though. While it doesn't state they are banned, it does give a good reason for banning them. I want to play a good game of Pokemon, not a game of coin tosses.

    And actually, I'd put in the same argument for the Hax Items as well.
     
  33. coyotte508

    coyotte508 Well-Known Member Administrator Server Owner Administrator Server Owner

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    Sorry, couldn't help but chuckle. And anyway, in the link it's said
    And you can look at this, this, and this. See, people find it fine to use "Hax Items".
     
  34. Meteor64

    Meteor64 TM1337 Falcon Punch

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    But it removes skill from the game and replaces it with luck. It's different from crithax and parahax because you have some measure of control over it- the choice to use it or not.
    And tbh, Quick Claw as a suggestion for beating BP is quite funny. Not only do you not need it, but if the only usage you're gonna get out of it is BP teams, don't you think thats a tad overspecialised?

    I'm in no way arguing that these are broken, by the way. But in a competitive community, relying on luck to win consistantly (or unconsistantly) kinda defeats the point, doncha think?

    And thats without considering Mind Reader.
     
  35. zeroality

    zeroality Artificial Insanity

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    Evasion & OHKOs =/= hax items.

    Just saying...
     
  36. Meteor64

    Meteor64 TM1337 Falcon Punch

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    I know, I've gone and opened another can of worms here, haven't I?

    But still, they're related, since they're all hax, so it's still relevant... :/
     
  37. eric the espeon

    eric the espeon is an espeon.

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    Skill does not show over a single game, but by winning consistently. Pokemon is a game not just of forethought, prediction, and knowledge, but also the skill of luck management. Knowing what risks to take, and what will give you a better chance to win.
     
  38. Bulldogs

    Bulldogs New Member

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    Reasoning: There's enough luck in Pokemon.
     
  39. Lil Wayne

    Lil Wayne Banned

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    I personally think that OHKO moves are perfectly fine. They are what got me past the first and third gym in my saphire version so why ban them? I mean they only have a 30% chance of hitting so they are never gunna make a differentioation in teh game. I mean cmon if a noob wants to pile up on bad moves let them imo.
     
  40. zeroality

    zeroality Artificial Insanity

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    Apparently you've never faced a Sheer Cold Lapras or Mind Reader Articuno/Smeargle.
     
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