Thought I'd open a discussion thread on this as I remember these two moves being the lamest ever on NetBattle RBY. I think they should be banned. It's basically like using OHKO or Evasion - takes absolutely no skill whatsoever and turns the game into a total joke. Wrap/Bind just make it unbearable to play. Sort of like OHKOs in GSC, which took 90% of the staff channel to convince coyotte to ban. :\
I'd like to actually try and play Wrap/Bind for a while before we ban. I mean, ok, there are ways to stop Wrap/Bind pokemon, it's not impossible, otherwise they would've been banned...
I don't think we should ban them. PO is a simulator, not a metagame-evener. I'm not saying they're not overpowered, but why put in a correct simulation if we're just going to out-right ban something in it? You forgot Fire Spin, too. Moltres would like a word.
PO is also a competitive community, not only a simulator. Also, I'm not too sure about this, but I thought that Fire Spin didn't prevent you from moving like Wrap and Bind did.
Evil Ninetales :( Definitely agree with the ban though my only experience with competitive gen 1 was on Pokemon Stadium so I may not have experienced the full force of this yet
I had been looking forward to RBY just to use AgiliWrap Dragonite, to see if it's truly as dominant as people claim. And besides, RBY isn't even out yet, and banning something prematurely without actually testing it is lol-worthy.
Hmm... pizza.... Anyway, this post pretty much says it all. Besides, if Wrap / Bind / Fire Spin was broken, wouldn't it have been banned earlier, when RBY was a lot more widely played than it is now?
I honestly never saw more than three RBY fights before on Netbattle. PO is the first server I've seen to make tournaments for less-used tiers, which is such a pleasent breath of fresh air. I think banning the moves themselves wouldn't be a good solution, anyway. If it needs a ban, couldn't it just be a mix of speed boosting + wrap/bind/fire spin to be banned? Although that would be hard to control, with BP (was BP in gen 1?) around.
I wasn't saying we should go ahead and ban it. Just saying 'I think we should' to start discussion on the issue. I didn't realize people here were lacking in RBY experience, but for those who have played - what is the counter? I mean, how do you stop it? Basically just Gengar right? And even then he isn't immune to the 'cant move' effects, he just doesn't take damage from it. Other than that, only counter is to be faster - but most of the stuff that can Wrap/Bind also can paralyze. :\ Seriously, it's hard as heck to stop. Someone correct me if I'm wrong. Edit: And yeah Fire Spin too but that's not seen as often.
This is the reason I hate watching Gen 1 Walkthroughs on Youtube. "and he's using wrap. and again. and again. and again and again. and again. and again. and again. and again. and again. and again. and again. and again. and again. and again. and again. and again. and again. and again. and again. "
Two sides, leave it up to the players imo. Wrap is a different meta though. I personally don't like it, but I don't find it grossly overpowered and unstoppable or anything, just gay. Really gay, especially if it keeps connecting. But that's RBY for you, every turn is a 20-30% chance for "something" to happen (para slams, fp, spc drops, ches, sleep misses, etc etc etc). @Oak: Stuff was less likely to be banned back then. Players looked for ways around things before going around clause-whoring everything they couldn't beat. You did have the few that filed their info with a million clauses, but those were more amusing than the majority. GSC Celebi wasn't "officially" banned (albeit unspokenly banned for the most part) until 2005, well past GSC prime. Likewise, wrapping moves was always something people just played with, because it simply existed. I think it's "unspokenly" banned for most players though. You can draw a parallel with BP teams in ADV I think.
Wrap teams are kinda boring to play against, but if you just splash a cloyster or something on your team it can be useful and applied strategically. if cloyster were so excellent because of clamp though, i don't think the majority of people would be choosing lapras and starmie over it. also consider how rare wrap dragonite is compared to tauros. every pokemon that has wrap has a significant drawback or weakness. you could make the argument that wrap is sort of "luck based" (although the comparisons to OHKO moves are absolutely absurd. OHKOS are like russian roulette, and wrap is like... yahoo poker) but luck is a massive part of the metagame anyway. the "best team(s)" are fairly clear cut and often replicated, so it comes down to skill, and luck, and i'd say luck can (and more often than not, does) have a much bigger impact than skill in an rby match. wrap is the only other viable team strategy you can use besides your standard chip away with 5 pokemon and then ch paraslam everything with tauros. whether you ban wrap or not, rby is still going to be frustrating to play (if you take it seriously) and luck will still run rampant. in retrospect, i can't see how rby has been respected as a serious, tournament metagame for such a long time. just leave the rules alone, and play it for shits and giggles. also, i'm really sick of people bitching and moaning the instant i clamp one of their pokemon with cloyster, like it's the most gamebreaking and unfair thing that's ever been used against them. rbyers are so dramatic.
Nah. RBY is going to be under-played as it is. The last thing we want to do is add another clause that will split the battlers. It will either stay as is or be banned. I'm opposed to an "optional" clause or whatever else.
Having never played RBY, I would like to experience the metagame in it's fullest and "purist" way possible. If this means facing(and trust me, whoring) Wrap then so be it.
just leave it alone as it is. there are drawbacks to bind/wrap/clamp/fire spin, there's no reason to ban them.
I agree with this. I am not familiar with how the RBY metagame plays, so I would also prefer this. We should just wait 'till the meta is playable, run tests, and make decisions from there.
Wrap moves doesn't need to continue being tested; there has been enough testing with around 11 years of experience. Given that there is a similar number of people supporting it and refusing it, and that every possible arguments and opinions (all arguments designed to approve/refuse a ban are just subjetive opinions anyway: it's overpowered / boring / bad/good for the meta / I like it / I don't etc) has already been used, there are just two options. 1. Allowing both metagames (RBY with wrap / RBY without wrap), considering them equally standard (but different), as long as there is enough people that plays decent rby to afford this division. 2. Create a pool where EVERY person that knows to play rby and has an opinion (from it's overpowered/good/bad/boring to I don't want to learn to play with(out) these moves) should vote. Then the most voted meta becomes the standard and the other gets the same relevance as UU/Ubers/trades/etc
People supporting it/who don't care/say leave it as it is: People who know how to play RBY People against it: People who don't know how to play RBY
All Wrappers have major flaws that can be easily exploited. QQ if you don't like it, but Wrap (or any moves like it) should be allowed.
There is also life outside this thread You can only exploit that flaws if the wrapper lets you do so. Dragonite might not give you this concession if you don't have a team with six TWs/Stab Blizzards. I personally find the meta without wrap much better and balanced and, why not, skilled. Wrap just makes a lot of pokes much less useful, and though these moves introduce a new strategy, it also makes others much less viable, and forces you to add some specific pokes to your team. Cloyster/Tenta with Clamp/wrap pretty much forces you to use Starmie on every team; Vict/Venu with wrap are just so good if you lack gengar. Dnite just destroys you with some luck. Moltres needs more, but may do too. The meta is forced to revolve too much around these pokes imo, that it becomes shittier. Stuff that Snorlax, Chansey, Egg, Golem/Rhydon, Lapras, etc all become worse, and meta becomes Starmie, Cloy, Dnite, Gengar, Tauros, Alakazam/whatever etc pretty much; appearing other wrappers, electric, rocks, etc depending on what is popular. Snorlax/Egg/Chansey will be used sporadically, depending on the meta, as not more than medium pokes. First meta is definitely much better and skill based imo. Gengar should suck at anything that is not leading, Starmie should be no more than decently ok, Alakazam should not be worrying about wrappers when exchanging the para vs chansey, Cloy should comform with walling standard snorlax, Dnite shouldn't be able to 6-0 teams if he gets lucky enough, and top slow pokes shouldn't become much worse because they may be allowing wrappers to set up, as they are way important for the meta. Meta is incredibly balanced without wrap: Snorlax threatening everything; Chansey walling specials but somewhat giving physicals free switches; Tauros being a pretty dangerous sweeper; eggy statusing, being annoying, bulky, and unpredictable at exploding into things that can't touch. Lapras being consistent and pretty useful, Rhydon/Golem having their incredicble moments with para support, Cloy walling standard lax, but being forced to explode vs specials etc. QQ if you like it, but Wrap (or any moves like it) should be banned. Now, you see that this doesn't work. Yeah, I also wish it did.
^Iirc, when RBY is implemented, it is going to be played with Stadium mechanics (sub blocking all status, Hyper Beam always requiring a recharge turn, etc.). This means that the metagame would be different and nothing should even be banned right away in the first place. With Stadium rules, new Pokemon and movesets become better. tl;dr
That would SUCK if that were true. That's a pretty big turn off if coyo were to implement the version of RBY that was never played competitively. But then again, that shouldn't happen, or he wouldn't be collecting data for both. http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=85497
That just can't be true. It would be a secondary metagame at most like tradebacks or UU is. Nobody plays stadium.
Wrap just makes a lot of pokes much less useful, such as? and forces you to add some specific pokes to your team. such as? Cloyster/Tenta with Clamp/wrap pretty much forces you to use Starmie on every team not really and no one in the right mind uses tenta in OU Vict/Venu with wrap are just so good if you lack gengar venu doesn't get wrap and this reinforces my idea that you don't know what you're talking about Dnite just destroys you with some luck. i guess he's uber in RBY then The meta is forced to revolve too much around these pokes imo, that it becomes shittier. then why hasn't every tour winning team been built around these pokemon? oh wait thats because it isn't forced to revolve around them Stuff that Snorlax, Chansey, Egg, Golem/Rhydon, Lapras, etc all become worse, and meta becomes Starmie, Cloy, Dnite, Gengar, Tauros, Alakazam/whatever etc pretty much; so basically half the usable OU meta becomes shitty because of wrap/clamp/fire spin okay Snorlax/Egg/Chansey will be used sporadically, depending on the meta, as not more than medium pokes. or they will continue to have the same usage and eggy will continue to be on 99% of teams Gengar should suck at anything that is not leading wat, Starmie should be no more than decently okwatwat, Alakazam should not be worrying about wrappers when exchanging the para vs chanseywatwatwat, Cloy should comform with walling standard snorlaxwat, Dnite shouldn't be able to 6-0 teams if he gets lucky enoughwatwatwatwatwat, and top slow pokes shouldn't become much worse because they may be allowing wrappers to set up, as they are way important for the metawatwatwatwatwatwatwatwatwatwatwatwatwat. have you actually played rby? Meta is incredibly balanced without wrap: Snorlax threatening everything wat; Chansey walling specials but somewhat giving physicals free switcheswat; Tauros being a pretty dangerous sweeperyou mean it wasn't before?; eggy statusing, being annoying, bulky, and unpredictable at exploding into things that can't touchyou mean it doesn't do that without wrap?. Lapras being consistent and pretty usefulyou mean it's not with wrap?, Rhydon/Golem having their incredicble moments with para supportyou mean they dont with wrap?, Cloy walling standard lax, but being forced to explode vs specials etc. wat Originally Posted by Jules People supporting it/who don't care/say leave it as it is: People who know how to play RBY People against it: People who don't know how to play RBY
Crytal_ actually does know his shit, granted he's probably trying too hard to rationalize why wrap makes for a worse meta. I'd hesitate to say it's "broken," but it's definitely a tactic that cheapens RBY to an extent, because it's just such a brainless strat. And he does have a point with things being less viable with wrap, or, more accurately, other things being more "mandatory" when designing a team for consistent success. And while, yeah, luck abounds in RBY, in this case, if you don't have specific pokes and don't get that luck, you're pretty much fucked. Even against amnesia users, who are pretty much countered by luck, you can always trade if luck doesn't go your way.
Snorlax, Chansey, Eggy, Golem, Rhydon, Lapras etc; anything that's slow basically. Starmie, Gengar if you don't want the game to be completely wrap - luck based. Alakazam to an extent, but it's just a worse Starmie if he's trying to avoid the para anyway. I admit, I haven't really played wrap rby, and partially I dislike the idea of wrap being allowed just because I don't want to learn to play around a new thing. However, as for questioning my "relevance" (having played it?!) in non-wrap rby, just have a look here: http://www.rby2k10.proboards.com/index.cgi (tournaments, results, general competitive rby posts etc), or just ask netbattle regulars about me. You shouldn't question the other players' in the community neither, to reply with a "the other players suck so much that it was so easy to get these wins" though, as isn't true. Maybe you need to get closer to rby, idk, never ever seen you in netbattle. I've done a few wrap battles though, just to realise at a glance how wrap meta is, and regardless of whether I lose or win almost 3/4 of the battles were decided due to something that wraps/clamps/spins. Add some baitpara on your team (which isn't already standard anyway?) for Starmie, Zam and friends, try to take out Gar if it exists (i must admit that I didn't really play with gar as it sucks in non-wrap meta), now wrappers have a pretty big chance of winning. Yep, I've been way too exessive with the other post, as I have the feeling that meta without wrap is much better, and all my experience with rby forces me to criticize and not to accept that people could be saying that and supporting the wrap meta; and much worse, that rby wrap meta could become standard forcing non-wrap meta to dissapear. I should have been more calmed though, as I'm pretty sure this won't happen. But having to coexist two metas with very little people that play (and know to) rby, it's annoying though. Yeah, tenta sucks (but just because they are better wrappers though), but I hope it's generally accepted in the wrap meta that Cloyster becomes almost #1 threat if you don't have Starmie UNLESS standard Snorlax stops being used in most teams (but you said that that usage is the same right?; it's OK, you should know better the usage of something I don't play and you do). Lastly, you are not helping if you are just watwating everything I say, instead of saying why the wrap meta and the role of each poke is good and balanced. Much like these watwats can't really mean "this is false", as I have played enough non-wrap rby to know how the meta is, and that these statements were completely true for this meta; the only things you can be questioning are the "shoulds". I'd like to know if you are an experienced player with wrap rby, and I actually want to see how the real wrap meta is from someone that understands and prefers it ,to compare stuff and have a more obvjetive opinion. And if wrapers aren't that centralizers of the meta (ya, they aren't), and there's not really much difference between both metas, then Jorgen's post sumarizes perfectly, from my point of view, how wrap meta is: being a bit careful (and still having to use stuff like gar and star much more than in non-wrap meta though), wrapers aren't really broken at all, but allow skilless battles to happen, and may allow skilles battlers to win, just because wrap didn't miss. And this isn't enjoyable imo. Nor balanced or whatever.
Never have I seen any team building process take into consideration that these pokes might be "worse" because of wrap. I don't think it's EVER been the case from what I've seen in my Pokemon career. Once zam/starm are para'd they aren't these "crazy anti-wrap pokemon that MUST be ran or else you lose" Let's also look into this "luck based factor" and look at the accuracy of wrap moves. Clamp 75% Wrap 85% Bind 75% Fire Spin 70% Besides the fact that a: These moves give almost completely free switches, b: they do generally like 1-3% per hit, c: to get hit over and over again for 5 turns with the given accuracies is usually unlikely. I don't believe that I EVER saw you in my Netbattle tenure from 06-10. Being a "netbattle regular" in this day and age lol okay. I don't know anyone outside of Borat, pocket, Nitro, hipmonlee wat WAT when did you start PLAYING rby? I would really like to know. ok
That. Testing before complaining IMO seems better, although I remember laughing hard with a sleep/wrapping team on Pokemon Blue/Yellow.
Also, remember that Wrap/Bind is glitched in Netbattle. Ingame effect: In netbattle, it has a 25% chance that it will attack for 1 turn, 25% chance that it will attack for 2 turns, 25% chance that it will attack for 3 turns, and 25% chance that it will attack for 4 turns. That means that they do on average 16.67% more damage per usage than they ought to
first, i want to say that although crystal_ is what i would call "relatively new," or at least, he only became good/knowledgeable concerning pokemon in the last few years, i would say he is a respectable player. he may not have played rby for a long time but he is pretty decent at it. unlike all the other retards at rby2k10 he doesn't think gengar is the 2nd best pokemon or some stupid shit like that, in fact he acknowledges that it sucks. that speaks volumes to me. i also want to make it clear that the "wrapless meta" is not the standard meta. rby with wrap has BEEN the standard meta, for quite some time. just because there is a tiny sect of players who have their own forum and who ONLY play rby, and ONLY play on netbattle simply because it's the only sim that lets you play rby, doesn't mean that that is standard. honestly, there are like 15-20 people that are regulars on that forum and are "anti-wrap." i also honestly think that crystal_ is only against wrap because he plays with pretty much these folks and no one else (as evidenced by his "i don't want to learn to play around something new" statement, which is a pretty bad argument for the record). but really, the rest of the pokemon community plays by a metagame where wrap is allowed. now they don't play rby quite as religiously as the people from rby2k10, but that doesn't mean that their opinions on the matter are completely invalid. every time a big tournament involving rby comes around, nobody complains about wrap, and all the rby2k10 people will just not play in them. i don't know how these people are validating themselves as "the best" when they are only playing against each other and whoever stumbles onto netbattle that doesn't happen to be using a single wrap move, but i guarantee you, there are people who are much better at rby than they are and know much more about it who just aren't playing them and aren't arguing with them. tl;dr, you people that are just picking up rby now or have just started playing it on netbattle within the last few years, you picked it up at the wrong time. nobody gives a fuck about wrap anymore (except for the fact that there was recently a notable glitch concerning wrap discovered on netbattle), and nobody has for quite some time. i also don't see the concern with people being "divided by two metagames." honestly, if a few new assholes don't want to play against wrappers, then you can go play by yourselves like you have been for the last like 4 years anyway. it's not like there is a giant thriving rby community. when rby is added to pokemon online, there isn't going to be a "metagame division." no matter what decision is made on the legality of wrap, you will have more people to play with than you do now, and you should just be grateful and shut up about it.
I agree with basically every single thing that Jules has said throughout the entire thread. If you've actually played RBY extensively and are a remotely good player (actually good, not just in your own mind) then you know that Wrap, while boring, is nowhere near overpowered and does not warp the metagame. Theory looks wonderful on paper, but theory will never be worth more than those of us who actually play and know...
Wrap has been banned before. And it's a bit of a platitude to say that "Wrap takes no skill to use." I think that it should be banned, but to place it in the same category as OHKOs and evasion is a bit ignorant. They're entirely different. rby with wrap has BEEN the standard meta, for quite some time. just because there is a tiny sect of players who have their own forum and who ONLY play rby, and ONLY play on netbattle simply because it's the only sim that lets you play rby, doesn't mean that that is standard. honestly, there are like 15-20 people that are regulars on that forum and are "anti-wrap." Wrap has been banned by THE Alternative, RBY2K10, Pokemonexperte and Pokefans--which have been consistent sources for competitive RBY. Acknowledging the fact that Smogon allows Wrap doesn't accomplish anything because they've never been the undisputed authority of the older generations. I don't know anyone outside of Borat, pocket, Nitro, hipmonlee lol Also, many people who are pro-Wrap tend to have the amusing proclivity to ignore one important mechanic: it allows the user to freely switch out; that is, switch out without taking an incoming attack. As for Crystal's credibility, he's been playing competitive RBY at a high level for around a year--which, in my opinion, is long enough to be considered a reliable authority. Attempting to denigrate his status as a good player because he started in 2010 is stupid because RBY has, with the exception of a few revelations, always been the same. What, are you going to say that somebody isn't good because they don't go to Smogon? RBY2K10 is the only forum that I know of that actually bothered to test their tiers. I haven't agreed with all of their decisions, but they care about the generation and given RBY a following that has transcended "novelty tournament on Smogon."
yes, they tested their tiers. but there are only like 15 people that are regulars at that place. they are like a bunch of inbred amish people bouncing their opinions off of each other. this is why the amish still don't have telephones and their children don't go to high school. furthermore, i never said that crystal wasn't a good player. in fact i said he was. the only reason i pointed out that he hasn't played for very long is because, due to this fact, he hasn't had the opportunity to play with many people outside of those from rby2k10, because older rby players don't get on netbattle very often, and i'm suggesting that perhaps his opinion on this matter has been swayed by the fact that he only plays with a few people, all of whom vehemently hate wrap and refuse to play with it. their disdain of a metagame which the MAJORITY of the pokemon community (perhaps this does not include the bustling 2-3 rby forums that you mentioned) plays forces them to play against themselves and not join in on tournaments and whatnot where they have the opportunity to play against other rby players with different mindsets about the game. they're only playing with themselves! and that's just sinful. especially for an amish man. finally, are you seriously suggesting that with smogon's humongous userbase (almost 80,000 people!) that there isn't a large group of people that take rby very seriously? some of their better players love rby, and some excellent players who perhaps you wouldn't consider "smogonites" still flock to smogon to join their rby tournaments. just because every single person on smogon doesn't play quite as religiously as you might, that doesn't mean there isn't a large talented playerbase. i don't think rby has been considered novelty since the inception of the smogon tour...
I didn't say you thought Crystal wasn't good; I was referring to some other posts. They seemed a bit condescending to me. It's a small community, but they're dedicated and that's what counts. It's important to keep in mind that Smogon never had a domineering presence on the older generations: they're only concerned with what's current. On the other hand, of the two "bustling forums" that I mentioned, two aren't "RBY forums:" Pokemonexperte and Pokefans are the two largest competitive forums in Europe and have held big RBY tournaments. The other two, THE Alternative and RBY2K10, have been the most significant outlets for RBY ever since it was superseded by the ascending RSE. RBY2K10's biggest detriment is that it's small; but honestly, an RBY community would, most likely, only grow if it was something like a subsidiary of Smogon. But the good thing about forums such as RBY2K10 is that they produce players that might not even exist if not for the fact that there's an alternative medium. You can say that Crystal doesn't play a lot of people, but then you have to look at the other extant sources of play. From what I see, Smogon is the only other source--and I don't see how they could possibly have more authority. It doesn't change the fact that RBY2K10 is an insular community, but that's a minor complaint anyway. Whenever Smogon has their novelty RBY tournaments, they play with "their rules." I don't think anybody accuses them of only playing against themselves. If you've got a reason to be different, be different. Another thing about Wrap is that its nuances were never really ruminated on until 2005--over half a decade into competitive RBY's existence. Wrap was almost never--if not ever--used by "top players" until after Smogon was created. It wasn't until then where it gained a lot of attention, and it's obviously caused enough dissent among people to indicate that it hasn't been a part of RBY's canon as long as some people on here think. Really, if you're so concerned about playing a "pure" metagame, then you need to allow evasion--because that's why bans on moves were enforced in the first place. finally, are you seriously suggesting that with smogon's humongous userbase (almost 80,000 people!) that there isn't a large group of people that take rby very seriously? some of their better players love rby, and some excellent players who perhaps you wouldn't consider "smogonites" still flock to smogon to join their rby tournaments. just because every single person on smogon doesn't play quite as religiously as you might, that doesn't mean there isn't a large talented playerbase. i don't think rby has been considered novelty since the inception of the smogon tour... Yes, Smogon is the largest forum--so what? Of that userbase, how many of them have played RBY at a consistent level? As somebody who doesn't consider himself a Smogon, maybe you could divulge this "better players love rby" a bit more. I didn't say that one has to be an ardent "RBYist," but to give them more credibility and authority than other forums just because they have a large population just doesn't work in regards to RBY. It's not saying much for Smogon to host a tournament and have a lot of people join, and other forums have tours as well. RBY was founded on talented players from different communities, and that still stands to this day. It's unfair to dismiss a community just because they can't have a 64-man tournament.
RBY2k10ers are raised on the very notion of hating wrap. It's just a handful of people perpetuating the problem, hoping to make a big change. It's not a clear representative of what is or what was at all. If the community were 20 people, maybe only 3-4 of them really disagreed with Wrap to begin with, the rest were just taught to hate it. A nasty ignorant cycle that cannot be helped. I don't see how any isolated community can be modeled after/used for grounds of development for an entirely new community. On the flip side, what do I know. GGfan knows best -- the john mccain of rby. But Crystal's better than ggfan though. Proven statement of fact.