Introduction Hi guys. If you know me, you should know that I always run stall. But after reading this article, I discovered I needed an offensive team to use against less experienced players, because those use bizarre things that stall can't beat (i.e calm mind clefable). Then, after some thinking, I made a very offensive team and won a lot of battles with it. This team was made in order to remove one-by-one every counter lucario has, so that it can come in and sweep the foe's team. It also includes spikes and stealth rock, so that lucario's sweep can be more assured. It's a VERY fast team whose slowest pokémon is lucario, who has 279 speed. Team Building process [secret] First, I Decided I would make a team based on Lucario. First, I knew I would have stealth rock so that lucario achieves the KOs it needs. So, I just went with a suicidal lead, that is, aerodactyl, since it's the fastest one. Since luca's biggest nemesis are bulky ground types, I wanted a poké that could easily beat them. Starmie was perfect for the job. It also can lure pursuit users, which lucario can set up on. Starmie also kills fire types that lucario can't (scarftran, priority infernape). Then, I knew I wanted spikes. But it wouldn't be any spiker. I wanted a very offensive spiker that could keep pressure at the foe. I discovered that OU had a lot of water types. Then, I picked Roserade, since she can kill or set spikes at them. Then I realized that I needed a spin blocker, so that I can keep my hazards. SubSplit gengar is one of the top threats of this metagame, so I picked him. He also loves the hazards to cause more damage. And then, I wanted Sandstorm to help lucario's sweep, as well as killing bulky psychics and bulky ghosts that lucario can't kill. Then, Scarftar came to mind. It also checks starmie, one threat to my team. And then, I tought my team had troubles with steel types like forretress and bronzong, since my only fire attack was rose's HP fire. So, I changed the aero lead for an Infernape lead. But then, an AgilliGross owned my team, and I decided to change gengar for rotom-H since they do almost the same spin blocking role, while rotom-h also stops steels that cause trouble to my team. And this is how the team looks now. [/secret] SMASHIN' UP In-Depth Analysis Infernape (M) @ Focus Sash Trait: Blaze EVs: 64 Atk / 252 SAtk / 192 Spd Hasty Nature (+Spd, -Def) - Fake Out - Stealth Rock - Fire Blast - Close Combat Fire is a great attacking type on this meta, hitting the dominant steel types for super effectively, so I picked infernape for a SR lead. Fake Out breaks the sash of the other leads. Stealth Rock helps lucario reaching some important KOs. Fire Blast is a powerful move and when infernape has used its sash, it will be blazed. Close Combat is just secondary stab. 192 with a hasty nature reaches 330 speed, outpacing base 100s. Special attack is maxed for a devasting fire blast, and the rest is sent to attack to give more punch to close combat. Starmie @ Choice Scarf Trait: Natural Cure EVs: 252 SAtk / 4 Def / 252 Spd Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk) - Hydro Pump - Thunderbolt - Ice Beam - Rapid Spin I used to run Life Orb, but changed it for scarf since it outspeeds some threats to my team. STABed Hydro Pump coming off of 328 special attack is nothing to laugh at, hammering most neutrals for a 2HKO. Thunderbolt rounds off the coverage with hydro pump, hitting water pokémon (bar lanturn). Ice Beam is used now to revenge scarf flygon and +1 DD dragonite. Don't bother using it against shaymin or celebi, since it won't OHKO and you'll be dead after, roserade does much better against those. Using scarf and Rapid Spin might look dumb, but starmie will mostly be switching after it spins, so it doesn't matter. Modest is used here because it reaches 329 speed, enough to outspeed 328 (jolly flygon's speed, timid jirachi's speed, timid shaymin and a lot more), so with a scarf it will be outspeeding scarfed versions of those by 1 point. Roserade (F) @ Life Orb Trait: Natural Cure EVs: 24 Def / 252 SAtk / 232 Spd Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk) - Grass Knot - Sludge Bomb - Hidden Power [Fire] - Spikes Ah Roserade. She's here because A) She absorbs toxic spikes/ B) checks almost every grass or water poké that are popular thanks to the FWG core rise; C) Provide spikes that help the team and D) hits like a boss. Grass Knot is a powerful move against most of the meta game. It's so powerful that it can OHKO gyarados and +0 crocune after rocks. Sludge Bomb is a reliable and powerful STAB, and while poison isn't a good attacking type, it murders grass types like shaymin and celebi, who cause trouble to my team. Hidden Power [Fire] is there to kill forretress and skarmory, who completely laugh at roserade's STABs (tough I'm thinking in changing it for ground to hit heatran) and Spikes is nice on an offensive team and it helps lucario achieving KOs (like on hippowdon). Special attack is maxed. Timid with 232 EVs reach 300. I didn't max it because due to HP fire, it will only reach 305 and there's nothing that it outspeeds that 300 doesn't outspeed. The rest is dumped into defense. Rotom-H @ Choice Specs Trait: Levitate EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk) - Overheat - Thunderbolt - Shadow Ball - Trick Gengar used to have this spot, but after realizing how my team was weak to AgiliGross, I changed it. Rotom-H gets gengar's same handy immunities as well as more resistances and more bulk, for the price of less speed. Overheat is his signature move and can be used to smack steel types that rotom loves to wall. Thunderbolt is a powerful STAB and electric is a good attacking type. Shadow Ball is rotom's another STAB and along with thunderbolt and overheat, it hits everything at least for neutral. Trick is used to stop walls from doing their job. The EVs here are simple: max speed and special attack. Tyranitar (M) @ Choice Scarf Trait: Sand Stream EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk) - Crunch - Pursuit - Stone Edge - Earthquake Ttar. My favourite pokémon ever. But, like roserade, that's not why he's here. It's here to set rocks, revenge kill some stuff and kill psychics and ghosts that cause trouble for lucario. Crunch is a reliable STAB and destroys ghosts and psychics. Pursuit is a crunch that hits on the switch, meaning a check-mate for dark-weak pokemon. Stone Edge is a powerful move and it can severely maim a lot of stuff and Earthquake is nice for killing other lucarios, heatran, etc and it covers well with stone edge. Max speed and attack like every sweeper, jolly to outspeed base 115s and slower. Lucario (M) @ Life Orb Trait: Inner Focus EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spd Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk) - Swords Dance - Close Combat - ExtremeSpeed - Bullet Punch The theme of the team. He's also the 3rd coolest pokémon IMO only losing to ttar and roserade. He cleans the rest of the foe's team. Swords Dance is a deadly setup move and it just needs one turn to be fatal. Close Combat is an imensely powerful move factoring STAB and after a swords dance it will be OHKOing even skarmory after stealth rock. ExtremeSpeed owns almost everything that is faster than lucario (it OHKOes flygon) and Bullet Punch kills gengar and scarftars. Why not using Crunch over ExtremeSpeed or Bullet Punch? With Bullet Punch + ExtremeSpeed I can't hit Dusknoir, Rotom-A, Cresselia and Celebi. With Crunch + Bullet Punch I can't hit Starmie, Infernape and Jolteon. With Crunch + Extremespeed I can't hit gengar, froslass and scarfed tyranitar. After analysing this, the 1st combination's issues can be easily eliminated by tyranitar while the 2nd and 3rd Combinations' issues can be handled but with difficulty by the team. So, I picked the 1st combination. Conclusion I won a lot of matches thanks to lucario. This mades me realize that lucario is so awesome at the battlefield as he's awesome in his look. I'm also very happy that I could make a good team with 3 pokés that are on my top 10 favourite pokés. Importable [secret] Infernape (M) @ Focus Sash Trait: Blaze EVs: 64 Atk / 252 SAtk / 192 Spd Naive Nature (+Spd, -SDef) - Fake Out - Stealth Rock - Fire Blast - Close Combat Starmie @ Choice Scarf Trait: Natural Cure EVs: 252 SAtk / 4 Def / 252 Spd Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk) - Hydro Pump - Thunderbolt - Ice Beam - Rapid Spin Roserade (F) @ Life Orb Trait: Natural Cure EVs: 24 Def / 252 SAtk / 232 Spd Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk) - Grass Knot - Sludge Bomb - Hidden Power [Fire] - Spikes Rotom-H @ Choice Specs Trait: Levitate EVs: 8 HP / 252 SAtk / 248 Spd Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk) - Thunderbolt - Shadow Ball - Overheat - Trick Tyranitar (M) @ Choice Scarf Trait: Sand Stream EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk) - Crunch - Pursuit - Stone Edge - Earthquake Lucario (M) @ Life Orb Trait: Inner Focus EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spd Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk) - Swords Dance - Close Combat - Bullet Punch - ExtremeSpeed [/secret]
4th Generation Threat List Defensive Threats: Blissey WishBliss: Lucario sets up or smacks it with close combat. Cleric: Same as above. Bronzong Tank: Infernape or rotom-h roast it and starmie can spin his rocks. Celebi Physically Defensive: Roserade is immune to leech seed, 4x resists grass knot, outspeeds and OHKOes it with sludge bomb. Tinkerbell: I try to have roserade coming on a grass attack to OHKO it with sludge bomb. SubSeed: Roserade is immune to leech seed and OHKOes with sludge bomb. Cresselia Physically Defensive: Rotom tricks or shadow balls it. Specially Defensive: Tyranitar crunches/pursuits it. Donphan Suporter:Starmie or Roserade OHKO this and starmie can spin rocks. Dusknoir Tank: Tyranitar crunches or rotom shadow balls it. Forretress Physically defensive:Infernape fire blasts it, roserade HP fires it, rotom-h spinblocks and overheats it, starmie can spin its hazards. Specially defensive:Infernape fire blasts it, roserade HP fires it, rotom-h spinblocks and overheats it, starmie can spin its hazards. Gliscor BritScor:Starmie OHKOes with ice beam or sludge bomb. Lead: Infernape 2HKOes it with fire blast Gyarados Resttalker: Starmie or rotom OHKO this with thunderbolt. Hippowdon Physically Defensive: Roserade OHKOes it with grass knot, starmie with hydro pump and starmie can spin rocks. Specially Defensive: Better for luke, a +2 close combat OHKOes it. Heatran Specially Defensive: Tyranitar OHKOes it with earthquake, lucario with close combat. TormenTran: Prediction beats it. Jirachi Wish Support: Roserade doesn't mind thunder-wave and has HP fire to deal with it. Specially Defensive: Ttar earthquakes it. Rotom-A RestTalk: Tyranitar owns it with crunch/pursuit. Defensive: Rotom is the best option since it outspeeds, has shadow ball and doesn't matter will-o-wisp. Skarmory Physically Defensive: Starmie or rotom will own it, spikes are spun by starmie. Specially Defensive: Same as above. Snorlax RestTalk: Lucario rapes it with close combat. Tank: Same as above. Suicune Resttalk: Roserade completely owns it. Swampert Tank: Roserade completely owns it. RestTalk: Roserade completely owns it. Tentacruel: Tyranitar Earthquakes it, rotom tricks it, starmie thunderbolts it and t.spikes are absorbed by roserade. Vaporeon: Roserade beats it. Zapdos SubRoost: Tyranitar outspeeds and uses stone edge. Physically defensive: Tyranitar 2HKOes and sponges its hits. Specially defensive: Tyranitar OHKOes. Offensive Threats: Azelf Lead: With infernape I fake out on the 1st turn, stealth rock on the 2nd and switch to ttar on the 3rd to kill it. Sweeper: Tyranitar stops it with crunch. Breloom Choice Scarf: I let one of the natural cure duo take the spore and play around after. Subseed/SubPunch: If it gets a sub I'll have to sacrifice a member, but everyone outspeeds it and everyone but ttar has a move to OHKO it. Dragonite MixNite: I need prediction to beat this, but if I can have starmie coming on a super power or tyranitar coming on a draco meteor, it's dead. Dragon Dance: Starmie outspeeds a +1 dnite and OHKOes with ice beam. Electivire Mixed Sweeper: If it's at +0, tyranitar outspeeds and OHKOes with earthquake. Physical sweeper: If it's at +0, tyranitar outspeeds and OHKOes with earthquake. Flygon Choice Scarf: Starmie outspeeds and OHKOes with ice beam. Choice Band: Starmie outspeeds and OHKOes with ice beam. Mixed Attacker: Starmie outspeeds and OHKOes with ice beam. Gallade Swords Dance: Rotom-H outspeeds it and has shadow ball to deal with it. Gengar Substitute: If I can have tyranitar coming on a shadow ball, it's dead. Choice Scarf: Play around it. Gyarados Dragon Dance: Starmie outspeeds and thunderbolts it. Heatran Choice Scarf: Starmie outspeeds and OHKOes it with hydro pump. Choice Specs: Lucario OHKOes with close combat, tyranitar with earthquake, starmie with hydro pump. Stealth Rock: Starmie hydro pumps and can spin rocks. Heracross Choice Scarf: Prediction. Choice Band: Almost everyone on the team outspeeds and dents it. Infernape Choice Scarf: Play around it. Other sets: Starmie handles it with ease. Jolteon Choice Specs: Tyranitar can sponge any hit and earthquake it. Life Orb: Same as above. Kingdra Any Set: I generally send roserade to take water hits and luca after to take the outrage and setup. Lucario Swords Dance: Tyranitar revenges it unless if it has bullet punch. Agillity: If it gets an agillity it sweeps my team. Thankfully it's extremely rare and it rarely finds space to setup since my entire team is faster and can OHKO it. Machamp Lead: I fake out and then try to fire blast it dependind on the dynamic punch roll (it does 80-95% IIRC) and then try to kill it, but it's bulky and it almost always kills something on my team. Magnezone Any Set: Everyone on my team outspeeds and OHKOes it and it can only trap lucario, who already rapes it. Mamoswine Physical attacker: Starmie outspeeds, resists ice shard and OHKOes. Metagross Lead: I usually fake out on the first turn, lay rocks along with him and fire blasts it. Starmie can spin the rocks after. Agillity: Rotom walls it and overheats it. Choice Band: Slower than the entire team and almost everyone has an attack to dent it. Porygon-Z Any Set: Tyranitar bascially can take any hit (bar HP fighting) and crunch it. Roserade Lead: Since infernape scares it, I usually fake out and stealth rock after. My own roserade absorbs its toxic spikes. Spikes: Infernape owns it, starmie can rapid spin. Choice Scarf: Starmie outspeeds and ice beams. Scizor Any Set: Rotom-H walls it and can overheat it. Shaymin Special attacker: If I can have roserade coming on a seed flare (and it don't lower the sp.def), she can survive a hidden power and sludge bomb for the OHKO after. SubSeed: Roserade outspeeds and OHKOes with sludge bomb. Starmie Life Orb: My own starmie can outspeed and thunderbolt it, ttar can crunch/pursuit. Choice Specs: Same as above. Rapid Spin: Since starmie can't OHKO it, ttar is the best option. Togekiss Any Set: Rotom-H walls its common attacks and deals with it using thunderbolt. Tyranitar Choice Scarf: Lucario sets up on any move bar superpower/earthquake and when it comes back, it will be bullet punched. Any other Set: Lucario murders it with Close Combat. Weavile Life Orb: It can kill any member I have with the proper move, but if I can make it use night slash on lucario, then I bullet punch it. Swords Dance: Same as above. Choice Band: Play around it. Zapdos Choice Scarf: Play around it. Other set: Tyranitar outspeeds and stone edges it.
EDIT: My team is very AgiliGross weak: it can enter on 90% of the attacks, use an agillity to be faster than everyone and OHKO roserade, gengar and ttar with meteor mash, OHKO infernape and lucario with Earthquake and OHKO starmie with thunderpunch. For this reason, I'm switching gengar for a Specs Rotom-H.
Your team looks great but doesn't it have a weakness to Weavile? Brick Break can take out ttar and lucario. Arial Ace deals with Infernape. Roserade gets beaten by Ice Punch and Starmie gets beaten by Night Slash. It will also outspeed you team other than the one with a scarf. This means that you only counter is Rotom H and it has no EV's in its defences. While it may only run rampart after Rotom H dies its still a large threat.
Yeah, that's true, but weavile is easily killed by lucario, if I can bring him on night slash or after it killed something.
sub cm rachi could really give this team issues as ape is being used as a suicide lead: sub on the switch 2 tar flash cannon/earth power 2 ko i think i'll need 2 run calcs, the assume sub/cm/earth power/psychic ep takes care of luke, while psychic removes rose, starmie can't threaten it so stalemate there unless u let it boost + rotom/tar can threaten but u have yourself locked into a move + rachi has only lost a net 18.25% w/ lefties when it leaves. now assume flash cannon/shadow ball over ep/psychic: tar doesn't like flash cannon, stamie + rotom die 2 shadow ball luke doesn't take much but u can't exactly count on it 2 take hits + rose can tank the thing but i can't check hp fire against a + 1 rachi due 2 my calculator being a piece of crap. scarfrachi can do a number on anything on this team other than rotom w/ the appropriate move: iron head/u-turn 4 tar t-punch/u-turn 4 starmie ice punch/fire punch 4 rose trick/fire punch 4 luke edit: ok rachi deals 38-45% w/ earth power so 2hko w/ tar switching in twice as i gave in the scenario assuming rocks r up. this is w/ the 252hp 252 def bold 4spd spread. flash cannon does 50-60%.
I use a very similar Infernape lead, and I've found the following to work quite well: Infernape (M) @ Focus Sash Trait: Blaze EVs: 252 Atk / 64 SAtk / 192 Spd Hasty Nature (+Spd, -Def) - Taunt - Stealth Rock - Fire Blast - Close Combat The first difference is the EV spread. I've found focusing more on attack helps to boost damage in the long run by making Close Combat a stronger when-in-doubt option, as a Blaze-powered Fire Blast is still incredibly potent after 64 EVs. The second difference is the nature; mine reduces defense instead of special defense. This is probably negligible, so whatever. The third difference is Taunt over Fake Out. Your team already has Trick, so Fake Out is probably still the better option. Couple that with the 252 attack EVs to help make those 2HKO's a sure thing.
First of all, thanks for the ratings. Well, I prefer a -SDef nature because machamp might not 2HKO infernape with dynamic punch + bullet punch. And i'll test the attack evs. SubCMRachi COULD be a threat, but it has the moveslot syndrome. Being forced to use Sub+CM, it has only 2 slots. With psychic + thunderbolt, ttar beats it. With Psychic + flash cannon, starmie beats it. With thunderbolt + flash cannon, rotom beats it. So, I don't consider it so much of a threat. And scarfrachi is COMPLETELY walled by rotom-h, since it resists iron head, u-turn, being "immune" to trick and taking little damage from the punches.
Why would you want Recover on your Starmie anyways? :P Having an extra counter to the aforementioned Pokemon is better than healing 50% damage that's gonna be slashed off by practically any attack anyways.
there are a bunch of pokes that wreck rotom but really the entire reason i did this is remind u that rachi shouldn't be ignored as an offensive threat. also can some1 check how much hp electric does 2 starmie from 252 modest empoleon w/ life orb i'm using a calulator that doesn't like macros. agility emp w/ surf/ice beam/hp elecric may be an issue if it can do enough. tar takes 78-92.1% from surf so if u get a high roll w/ rocks good bye ultimate bad-ass (tar). rade takes @ least 97% from ice beam, luke's defences suck, + rotom gets train wrecked my surf. edit: never-mind forgot i'm using a gen 5 calculator + rotom-h is a fire type it only does 67-74% in gen 4. actually run that anyway as this means that if rotom has to take an attack it can't stop it + tar may not be able to @ all if it has to come into rocks.
Starmie has little if any bulk. :P 60/85/85 is barely decent, and this particular Starmie has no defensive bulk besides 4 EVs dumped into Defense. Life Orb doesn't help. 80 base Atk with a Life Orb and 252 Attack EVs deals 45.6-54% with something like Return without STAB. Any super-effective hit, besides Pursuit from stuff like Beedrill or similar attacks, will practically always at least 2HKO. Practically any neutral hit with STAB from a half-decent offensive stat will KO; for example, Life Orb Relicanth with no Atk investment will always 2HKO; without Life Orb but with 100 Atk EVs, it still has a good chance. And that's pretty much the most optimistic estimate. This also isn't factoring SR and the sand created by Blue Star's own T-Tar.
also if u bothered 2 read his explanation there were 4 pokes that he would be using ice beam 4, 3 of whom he has 2 stops on his team already while the fourth either gets raped by most other team members or outspeeds + makes a mess of everything.
I did indeed read that. Don't be silly. What I'm saying is, Recover is even more useless than Ice Beam would be in this situation, from what I can see. :P After all, why bother switching out for the hit when you can just nail them with an Ice Beam immediately? Don't make assumptions about me.
I use recover because starmie counters a lot of things and life orb + sandstorm will add up pretty quickly. Starmie doesn't need to be bulky to use recover, it can use recover on something that doesn't threat, like vaporeon.
have you checked modest 252 empoleon's hp electric vs starmie yet as my post b4 username showed up pointed out agility triple attack emp could be an issue w/ rocks it can 1hko tar (33% of the time) + rotom (38% of the time) + everything else is 1hkod via the appropriate move.
Yes, empoleon OHKOes starmie with grass knot/hidden power electric. But lucario is there to save the day. A +0 extremespeed does 20-25% to empoleon, which means that if it attempts to sweep in a pinch, it has to be extremely lucky to survive it. And agillity empoleon can't OHKO tyranitar with surf, so ttar beats it with earthquake.
Dragonite used Dragon Dance gg It can set up on Roserade, Infernape or Starmie. Ttar cannot revenge it 100% of the time as any smart player will run Jolly DD.
Well, that never happened, but I'm testing choice scarf starmie ATM, since it gives much more speed to the team and can revenge dnite/flygon/gyarados. EDIT: scarf starmie was a success, I'm changing the LO for a scarf
i was assuming rocks which means a 1 in 3 chance 1hko 4 tar so it + rotom are limited stops (rotom as i said can't take a hit ealrier in the battle as it takes 67-75% from surf so any self respecting attack will blow that) scarfmie is a reliable 1 tho as it outspeeds a + 2 emp + has t-bolt.
Yeah scarf starmie is REALLY useful. Even if it runs modest, it can outspeed stuff like jolly scarf flygon, +2 empoleon, +2 metagross...
Pretty solid team. I'd just say watch out for enemy Pursuits, as you have two Dark weak pokes that ar choiced. Overheat locked Rotom or Thunderbolt locked Starmie is dead. I'd say not DD Nite, but Mixnite is your problem. You'd want to send in Tyranitar or Starmie to kill it, right? On the switch it can OHKO those pokes with its strongest moves, and Rotom and Roserade can't OHKO for their life and are obliterated by Draco Meteor and Fire Blast / Outrage. Regardless, you'll need prediction to avoid a KO or 2 KOs from an enemy Dragonite. Secondly, if your first response to Dragonite is not always Starmie, you risk letting it get 2 DDs, and then it sweeps you easily. These Dragons ¬¬ I think your team needs a little bit of regeneratablity. Eventually U-turns will were down stuff and fast switching teams that get in before two many entry hazzards are up can also beat you down with lucky predictions. I suppose you don't want to slow down your momentum, but a Wish passer could help you a bit. Regardless, this team is great. 10/10. I'll fear it on the ladder.
Not really, tyranitar is used to revenge kill non-boosted pokés (like gengar, starmie and stuff), while starmie is to revenge kill boosted pokés (like scarf flygon, +1 dnite), get it?
i understood that much + normally this wouldn't be an issue but now u have 3 choice poke 2 of which are scarfers + starmie hardly has tar's raw power tho imo, tar would be the 1 2 lose the scarf 4 a band as this allows u 2 still wreck the pokes u need out of the way 4 luke if anything it does a better job of it + gengar only 2hkos standard 248/8 tar w/ fail blast.
Starmie does not have tyranitar's power, but starmie is supposed to kill frast-but-frail pokés, while ttar is meant to kill the bulky ones. If I swap ttar's scarf for a band, then rotom-a will outspeed and will-o-wisp it, as well as gengar.
just realized u can't stop dd tar as uncommon as it is, they carry a babiri generally 2 stop scizor + even if rocks are up starmie (surf) + luke (bullet punch) together only have a 6% chance 2 beat it. i can't believe i'm just now seeing this 1 i used dd tar 4 a while on shoddy. edit: oops 4got u r running hydropump. so nevermind. wait u still need 2 sac starmie or luke even w/ rocks so it is a threat. what scares me is that our teams half lined up @ 1 point by sheer coincidence.
well just when you thought you were free i have a problem poke for you sub-champ dynamic punch for tar and luke, payback for rotom and starmie, stone edge for roserade. also dd-tar still requires a sacrifice even with hydro pump.
My experience with Machamp in 5th gen, at least, is that it is often worn down fast enough so as to be revenge killed easily. The same probably applies with 4th gen; SubChamp can probably take down at least 1 Pokemon, but the offensive pressure will probably be enough to prevent Subbing, and thus it'll be worn down rather quickly.
tar locked into either dark move is asking for champ to sub same with starmie locked into rapid spin. also if gen 4=/= gen 5 machamp is one of the most annoying pokes in ou especially since psychic nor flying attacks are particularly common.