suspect proposal

Discussion in 'Gen 7 Ubers' started by Konzern, Nov 25, 2016.

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  1. Konzern

    Konzern Banned

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    can we have a complex ban of sleep + shadow tag. it defies the sleep clause as you can't switch out and hypnohex gar has cheesed too many wins. its not competitve, thanks
     
  2. Professor Oak

    Professor Oak same Forum Administrator Server Owner Social Media Rep Forum Administrator Server Owner Social Media Rep

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    Sleep Clause prevents more than 1 Pokémon from being put to sleep by your opponent at any one time. As such, the above scenario does not bypass Sleep Clause.

    Hypnosis / Hex Mega Gengar existed in Gen 6 Ubers too, and it was not banned in any way, shape or form. What has changed in Generation 7 to make it so bad, in your opinion?

    For a suspect to be considered, we need significantly more detail than has already been provided.
     
  3. Konzern

    Konzern Banned

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    Okay to be more clear with what I expressed

    Sleepclause limits one mon to sleeping but that clause is entirely useless because of the fact that you can't switch out as with stag + sleeptalk. It doesn't exactly defy the current sleep clause but it does basically make it useless as it can eliminate all 6 mons without having switches. Its a weird idea to express on how it bypasses the sleepclause in a sense but anyone who has played sumo realizes it does.

    As for it not being as good in ORAS
    http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ubers-185030

    This mon was still a potent threat in oras as it greats speedtier/ability allowed it to trap mons and cheese games as shown. It only got better in SUMO because it could forgo the protect slot due to the mega speed mechanics and instead run sub/sludgewave/focusblast.

    Stag+Sleep (HypnoGar) turns the game to a bunch of 60/40s that doesn't promote competitiveness and should be banned on the same basis of swagger; uncompetitiveness

    Im just want a complex ban on sleep that doesn't allow trapping/stag + sleep as it turns the game uncompetitive. Or maybe even a suspect test/discussion about it. Thanks
     
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  4. Professor Oak

    Professor Oak same Forum Administrator Server Owner Social Media Rep Forum Administrator Server Owner Social Media Rep

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    That is a better post than the previous one. I question the need to make a complex ban though , as a simple ban on Mega Gengar would resolve that issue and a few others that people have.

    @Draciel @sulcata - I've flashed you because you're the tiering admins, and there's currently no designated Gen 7 Ubers Leader, so it's your call.
     
  5. Funbot28

    Funbot28 Active Member

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    I agree that something needs to be done about Hypnosis Mega Gengar. It really invalidates the idea of a sleep fodder and can proceed to wreck through walls it had a hard time breaking through before with Hex and Substitute. The more diversity of options it could choose with its sets also means that it could run things like Thunder and Sludge Wave to break through common sleep absorbers such as Ho-Oh, Xerneas and Primal Kyogre. This is not a question of making Ubers more balanced, but rather making it actually playable and not dependant on 60:40 chances of Hypnosis hitting most of the time...

    Ban Mega Gengar or do a complex clause, as long as something is done about this.
     
  6. La.Melle2402

    La.Melle2402 I'm the bone of my sword

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    Nothing has to be done with Mega Gengar. The Hypnosis set was and is shit. People are just hoping for a 60/40. I agree with you in some point Konzern. It has nothing to do with competitive Pokémon. But this set is just annoying and not broken. If we argue like you did we should ban every Pokémon with the ability Serene Grace for example. Because all they do is hoping for a 60% flinch chance.
    Also you guys act like Hypnosis has an accuracy of 90%. The accuracy is lower than focus blasts and everyone complains about blast misses 70% of the time lol
    so there shouldn't even be a discussion about banning Mega Gengar because people on showdown ladder spam it atm
     
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  7. Edna

    Edna Chasing the Dragon Forum Moderator Forum Moderator

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    You missed the point he raised though: for him it's fact you can't switch that nullifies your sleep clause, 60/40 might look awful but that's basically a flinch of Jirachi so that's not that bad.
    I however agree with the fact it is not broken, because annoying =/= broken. Gengar was always an awesome mon in Ubers and now that Dbond got nerfed it found a replacement in HypnoHex. Although, before Mega, Ho-oh is still an awesome sleep fodder and is still used a lot, and the metagame is not even settled so calling a ban in Ubers might be a bit early since we don't have even 'generic' sets. I would personally give it some time so we see how the meta evolves and mostly to have it implemented on PO before saying after 10 days it's broken
     
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  8. Draciel

    Draciel ALLEZ! ALLEZ! ALLEZ!

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    The issue here is about Shadow Tag+Hypnosis, which basically prevents you from switching out after your mon gets put to sleep by M-Gengar. However I agree with what Edna said, it'll be irrational to quickban or force some sort of complex ban on it before getting the opportunity to test it in the meta. Keep up the discussion, but there won't be any decisions made before gen 7 is actually implemented on PO.
     
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  9. Mysterious M

    Mysterious M Dream /\ Bigger

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    You should not ban Mega Gengar. It is an important piece of Ubers, and banning it because of one set is really not so logical. I mean, there is a discussion on Smogon going on, and i think they might upgrade the sleep clause, but as it was mentioned, banning Mega Gengar so quickly is a mistake. Let's test it a bit more before we rush things.
     
  10. Konzern

    Konzern Banned

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    i'm not calling for a ban on mega gengar, instead just a readjustment of the sleep clause. mega gengar in itself isn't broken or uncompetitive, but the hypnohex set is. when swagger was suspected, we didn't go ahead and ban klefki it's abuser, instead we banned swagger the move. thus the same should be done with sleep + stag. also people who are saying it's annoying but not broken. i never said it was broken, but instead it's unconpetitive as it forces the game to 60/40s. similarly swagger was banned cause confusion costed 50/50s and while it wasn't broken per say, it was still uncompetitive.
     
  11. E.T.

    E.T. Random Slowpoke Super Moderator Server Administrator Articles Leader Super Moderator Server Administrator Articles Leader

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    Just from reading what has been discussed in the thread so far, combined with experience from Gen 6, it sounds to me like the issue is simply Shadow Tag. Shadow Tag was already a controversial subject in Gen 6 Ubers, and I fully expect Shadow Tag to be more of an issue in Gen 7 because the addition of more threats should only make trapping more potent. Additionally, I'm anticipating the possibility that Golisopod (Emergency Exit) will be paired with Trappers to create more strategies like the Eject Button + Trapper, but since I haven't had the chance to experience it in Ubers, idk if this would end up just being another gimmick.

    If Shadow Tag ends up getting banned, then Mega Gengar would be banned along with it since it can't run anything else. If Shadow Tag doesn't get banned, it would probably be better to ban Mega Gengar rather than trying to impose a sleep-trap clause that would, in all likelihood, only be relevant for Mega Gengar.

    Like what has been said above, it is too early to make a decision on this right now though.
     
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  12. Lacus Clyne

    Lacus Clyne This might get unpleasant!

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    Just ban Hypnosis from Gengar. We already have limited Pokémon in Ubers and removing a key Pokémon is the worst. Hypnosis + STag is like having a 60 % OHKO move, hence we should forbid people to use Hypnosis only since Mega Gengar is still a viable Pokémon and a threat. The reason why HypnoGar wasn't used back in Gen 6 is simply because people didn't knew how OP this strategy is. We don't really need to wait for Gen 7 to be implemented in PO in order to quick ban it. You can ask every "good" Ubers player on Smogon and they will confirm that this strategy is broken. When in doubt just click Hypnosis and win.

    @Edna Ho-Oh isn't really a good check since the person only needs to hit Hypnosis and click Sub till you wake up, which ends up in a kill.

    Gengar @ Gengarite
    Ability: Cursed Body
    EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
    Timid Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Substitute / Destiny Bond
    - Focus Blast / Sludge Wave / Sludge Bomb
    - Hex
    - Hypnosis
     
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2016
  13. pokemonnerd

    pokemonnerd Only uso listens to pnerd. Devo too. Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    Does anything else in Ubers have any reason to touch Hypnosis other than Gengar, over other move options they may have?

    Does anything else with shadow tag even have hypnosis?

    If not this is a Gengar specific problem that can be solved by banning a move(on gengar), especially if people agree mega Gengar isn't broken without Hypnosis. You don't have to ban it out the gate but it seems obvious that shadow tag by itself isn't the problem, and Ubers should aim to keep as many things playable as possible.

    Unless it changed this gen that is Ubers' tiering philosophy after all. Only ban what is absolutely needed to keep a playable atmosphere while dealing as little damage as possible.
     
  14. Konzern

    Konzern Banned

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    yes z move hypno drai/xurk see usage. no point banning the move as more collateral damage. instead a complex ban works better redefining sleepclause for ubers (idk if there's transparency between ubers and lower tiers)
     
  15. チャンピオンワタル

    チャンピオンワタル HYPER BEAM!

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    Two things to note:

    1. How can anyone justify allowing Hypnosis Mega Gengar in a tier from which Moody, Swagger and one-hit KO moves are all banned? The way I see it, either Hypnosis Mega Gengar has to be banned, or Moody, Swagger and one-hit KO moves have to be unbanned, for the sake of consistency in rules and principles, since all four are pretty much the same concept.

    2. For the record, a sleep trapping complex ban has happened before.
     
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  16. Konzern

    Konzern Banned

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    can we get some response from the tiering people on po pls as if this is being discussed or not?
     
  17. Finchinator

    Finchinator IT’S FINK DUMBASS

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    They said before that it can't be implemented prior to PO implementing generation seven. Therefore, this will be done pro-actively once generation seven is implemented on PO. There is not much to discuss now that most parties have presented their opinions, imo
     
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  18. La.Melle2402

    La.Melle2402 I'm the bone of my sword

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  19. Spoovo The Pirate

    Spoovo The Pirate Meep! Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    A non-complex way would be to ban Hypnosis itself. I mean, what the fuck else uses it?

    (I guess maybe Darkrai because Dark Void got nerfed, but...)
     
  20. La.Melle2402

    La.Melle2402 I'm the bone of my sword

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    The move itself isnt broken, just the SleepTrap combo. So there is no reason to ban Hypnosis, unless we cant have a complexe sleeptrap ban
     
  21. Joyverse

    Joyverse Back for a blast!

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    Z-Hypnosis Xurkitree and Darkrai (with or without psychium-z) use hypnosis. If it is appealing to you guys then ban hypnosis exclusively on Mega Gengar maybe?
     
  22. sulcata

    sulcata stéphane curry best waifu Forum Moderator Server Administrator Forum Moderator Server Administrator

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    Bringing back the gen 2 sleeptrap ban needs justification beyond "we did it before". The situation is completely different as gen 2 had multiple pokes which could be broken with sleeptrap and there were no abilities. Not to mention the thought process behind tiering was entirely different.

    If Mega Gengar is broken with Hypnosis then just ban Mega Gengar imo. It's not like it's the only issue we've had with Mega Gengar with perishtrap shenanigans and so on.

    That aside tiering decisions won't be made until we actually have SM running on server and these are just my 2 cents.
     
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  23. Konzern

    Konzern Banned

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    not to be rude, but non uber players need to not continuously mention to bannning mega gengar or hypnosis as a whole when all the ubers player base agrees that a restructuring of the sleepcause is the route to go.

    drai/xurx use hypnosis
    mega gengar isn't broken; sleep + trapping is, we didnt ban klefki when swagger was broken, we banned swagger
     
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  24. Mysterious M

    Mysterious M Dream /\ Bigger

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    I have to totally agree with Konzern. If our posts are not enough, you can check the amount of the Ubers players in smogon who were in for a ban. This is a ban that is really simple, although idk what problems will occur with coding. There will be more evidence of this sleep trap thing in the sm ubers tournament which will start next week on forums.
     
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  25. sulcata

    sulcata stéphane curry best waifu Forum Moderator Server Administrator Forum Moderator Server Administrator

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    If you want to point out that someone isn't an Ubers player, then you should put forth an argument based on experience and not "because players say so".

    Hypnosis ban is silly, that was never going to be on the table. Swagger was arguably broken even before gen 6, Klefki was by no means the only abuser. How is Mega Gengar not broken if one of its sets is broken? Removing a moveset from most broken Pokemon would make them "not broken". Complex bans are at times necessary, but being less than a month since release and the main server not having SM at all makes me a bit skeptical. For simplicity of learning a tier complex bans should be kept to a minimum, etc, etc.

    People brought up suspecting Mega Gengar last gen, making it seem like the problem lied more with Mega Gengar itself. If people think Mega Gengar is fine without sleeptrapping then so be it. The only reason to not ban Gengar is to maintain minimal collateral damage. My main point in my previous post was saying "because we had a ban like that before" is nonsensical. The "collateral damage" point is all you need to make since others have already shown it's a problem.

    If this is implemented it should just be a ban of Gengarite+Sleep Moves. There's no reason to change how the Sleep Clause is coded I think?
     
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