Ok well this is my sun team that I built around SubRecover Ho-Oh which has really done well, currently at #1 on both Smogon and PO server. This team also helps demonstrate the sheer brokeness of Shadow Tag Shandera, at least in the Uber tier. Groudon@Leftovers Trait: Drought EVs:236HP/232Def/40Spd Impish Nature (+Def,-SpA) -Stealth Rock -Dragon Tail -Earthquake -Stone Edge Well for a sun team this thing seemed like the obvious choice, it also serves as a fantastic physical wall and helps me get Stealth Rock on the field. Dragon Tail is one of the two ways I have to stop Baton Pass teams from wrecking this. Also helps phaze away Extremekiller, as well as BU Dialga and various CM Arceus. Stone Edge is on there mostly to deal with Ho-Oh. I orginally had Rock Slide but it wasnt doing enough damage after a burn so I figured Stone Edge was better. Shandera@Choice Scarf Trait: Shadow Tag EVs:4HP/252SpA/252Spe (30Def IV,30SpD IV,30Spe IV) Modest Nature (+SpA,-Atk) -Overheat -Shadow Ball -Energy Ball/Flamethrower -Hidden Power[Ground] Ok, despite the only obvious additions to Ubers in Gen 5 being Reshiram and Zekrom, this thing is actually even better than either (well maybe not, but it does a better job for this team than either of them could). Overheat in the sun KOs Extremekiller after a little prior damage, as well as destroying Mewtwo, Darkrai, Steelceus, Grassceus, Groudon, Dialga, and can hit most walls apart from Blissey for decent damage. Shadow Ball is a secondary STAB and should be used if it will get the KO due to perfect accuracy. It also hepls dent Giratina and Giratina-O, the second being slightly more problematic to this team. Originally Curse was in the third slot but with Inconsistent now being banned there was no need for it anymore, so i decided that Enrgy Ball would probably be the better option, since it can 2HKO some Kyogre, and Manaphy. Originally I had Hidden Power Rock but I decided that Ho-Oh would be slightly easier to play around than Heatran so I decided to be able to get rid of that threat to my team for good. The nature may seem a little strange since it loses out on Mewtwo, but you'll see I have a plan for him later in this RMT, but the extra power modest affords agaisnt everything else is definitely worth the speed loss. Latias@Soul Dew Trait: Levitate EVs: 200HP/56SpA/252Spe Timid Nature (+Spe,-Att) -Calm Mind -Psycho Shock -Dragon Pulse -Recover Originally I had Palkia in this slot as the Kyogre counter but over time I found that I was fairly weak to CM Ogre and Palkia also couldn't take repeated hits from it. So i decided to test something that has long been considered the best Kyogre counter, Latias. With access to CM itself, and Recover it can fulfil both the task of beating CM Ogre and of taking repeated hits. Calm Mind actually allows this thing to sweep since not a whole lot can actually take hits from Latias. Psycho Shock is to hit special defensive behemoths like Ho-Oh, Kyogre, Chansey and Blissey. And Dragon Pulse is obviously another STAB move that hits hard on the special side. Recover is a key move on Latias since it is one of the main advantages it has over Palkia. Genosect@Choice Scarf Trait: Download EVs:252Atk/4HP/252Spe Jolly Nature (+Spe,-SpA) -U-Turn -Explosion -Flamethrower -Ice Beam When I originally updated the team I had Zekrom here but after playing for a while I ofund there was a pretty big weakness to the latis, and while running Genosect over Zekrom does give me some troubl with Ho-Oh it can be played around. U-Turn allows Genosect to OHKO Mewtwo, Lati@s, Darkrai and keeps up alot of momentum for the team. Explosion gives it a powerful sacrifical attack to deal major damage to anything that isnt a ghost, steel or rock type. Flamethower gives this team a way to counter closyter and can deal major damge to stuff like Nattorei.. Ice Beam is there to hit DD Ray since not abusing the fact that Geno can revenge it would be foolish IMO. However with it being uninvested and negative nature I wouldnt use Ice Beam at all unless its 4x effective. Espeon@Shed Shell Trait: Magic Mirror EVs:4HP/252SpA/252Spe (30Atk IV,30SpA IV,30Spe IV) Timid Nature (+Spe,-Atk) -Hidden Power[Fire] -Grass Knot -Psycho Shock -Toxic Espeon, in Ubers!? Yes, this thing is actually incredibly useful, allowing Ho-Oh to function at its peak without Stealth Rock on the field (it requires some prediction, but it isnt too hard to tell which pokemon can set up Stealth Rock) Hidden Power Fire is obviously to take down Forretress and Nattorei, two pokemon who both love to set up hazards, Grass Knot is to beat Groudon who also loves to set up Stealth Rock and Psycho Shock just lets you hit special walls with this thing. Although I originally used Yawn, I found Toxic to be a better alternative helping me take down the likes of Lugia, and the Latis with far greater ease. Finally although Focus Sash was my initial choice i found Espeon got trapped by the incredibly common Shandera, so I decided that Shed Shell would be the better option. Ho-Oh@Leftovers Trait: Regeneration EVs: 204HP/252Atk/52Spe Adamant Nature (+Atk,-SpA) -Sacred Fire -Brave Bird -Substitute -Recover Ok, so finally we get to the star of the team, the rainbow Phoenix and a pokemon many had suggested for OU this gen, due to its average physical defense and 4x Stealth Rock weakness. However Ho-Oh's incredible attacking power and ridiculous bulk more than make up for these slight flaws. Normally the strategy is to bring this in on something it walls and set up a sub. If Ho-Oh can get a sub up more often than not the opponent will have to lose at least one pokemon, or have their physical attacker crippled from a burn by Ho-Oh. This thing also helps counter alot of CM Arceus forms. Although Ho-Oh gained a new toy with Nitro Charge this gen I decided not to use it since SubRecover is often far more deadly and only really struggles with Heatran and Zekrom, to an extent. OK,rate away. Threatlist: Kyogre: Not really too threatening since I have both Latias and Zekrom, to take hits from it, but its ability to summon rain is really annoying if Groudon dies first. Freeze hax on Latias can also cost me games occasionally. Dialga: Most of the attacking sets aren't really a problem but if I mispredict a Stealth Rock variant it can easily cost me the game. Its much easier to judge this on a server with team preview since you can judge what else is capable of setting up SR in your opponents team. Palkia: Ho-Oh pretty much completely walls it in sunlight and Latias can come into any non-Dragon attack. If Groudon is down it become a bit more problematic but can still be dealt with. Mewtwo: Pretty threatening to any team since there isnt really any decent switch in, but then again Mewtwo doesnt really have a good switch in to anything in this team. Latias can wall it to an extent, and Ho-Oh can take an unboosted Psycho Break. Genosect can OHKO it with its Scarf U-Turn. Lugia: Pretty annoying to the team, since its one of the few things that can actually stop Ho-Oh but Ho-Oh can burn it to break Multiscale at which point Shandera can beat it one-on-one (since over the 24 Shadow Ball attacks you should get at least one Sp.Def drop or a crit). Genosect can really hurt it with its boosted explosion oor Shadow Claw. Ho-Oh: A big threat without Zekrom but you can play around it with Ho-Oh and Groudon, Genosects Explosion will also OHKO this but it is a huge threat that always has to be accounted for. Latias: Always threatening to any team since its so hard to wall, but Genosect outspeeds and destroys it with U-Turn. It also wont enjoy facing Ho-Oh, as a last resort I can face it with my Latias and it will come down to speed ties. Latios: Pretty much the same as Latios, only that Ho-Oh wont really enjoy taking Psycho Shocks from it, but obviously Latios takes more damage from Brave Bird so it wont really like facing Ho-Oh either. Again, Genosect should probably be your first choice against these. Groudon: Not really a problem at all since the RP Version isnt getting past my Groudon, and I have a ground immune in Latias who can also hit it with Dragon Pulse for alot of damage. Shandera removes almost every non-RP variant. Rayquaza: DD Rayquaza is actually pretty threatening, but can only really set up on Shanderas Overheat, and Groudon can take an Outrage and phaze it with Dragon Tail. Genosect can also revenge the DD variant. Other versions aren't really too threatening. Heatran: Pretty annoying for its ability to wall Ho-Oh pretty much, as well as Latias, but with HP Ground on Shandera, I can gurantee removing it from the game as soon as it shows up. Giratina: Pretty difficult to break down since Ho-Oh wont actually win without a crit, but Shandera can 2HKO it with Shadow Ball, and it wont like taking Dragon Pulses from Latias at all. Giratina-O: Not that threatening, but its mixed attacking can be powerful, however if it tries to take on Ho-Oh one on one, it will lose if it gets Burned. If it isnt burned its Shadow Sneak can be annoying to the rest of the team. Darkrai: Can't spam Dark Void against me due to the presence of Espeon, and Shandera can come in after a kill and revege kill Darkrai. Ho-Oh also walls it after sleep clause has been activated. Genosect can threaten it with U-Turn after sleep clause is active. Shaymin-S: Pretty much completely walled by Ho-Oh, apart from the Leech Seed versions which Shandera can really hurt with Overheat (although due to the Hidden Power it will be a speed tie). I wont go through all the Arceus forms, but for the most part any physical Arceus is revenged by Shandera, and any CM variant is walled by Ho-Oh. Some obscure variants may cause problems but for the most part the team can handle them. Tyranitar: Really annoying for its ability to pursuit Latias and Shandera, however you can predict around it and it wont like takiing any hit from Groudon or especially Genosect who it will hate taking scarf U-Turns from.. It also becomes largely useless if Ho-Oh burns it on the switch in. Shandera: Another annoying trapper, and it can remove Groudon, and weakened Ho-Oh, however its not really doing much to the rest of the team. Still a big threat to watch out for. Reshiram: Pretty much walled by Ho-Oh who can take even a Specs Draco Meteor, then Regenerate off the damage. It will often lose to Latias one-on-one as well. Zekrom :Cant really do too much to Groudon unless its a mixed variant, and they tend not to be Scarfed. It also cant lock itself inton Outrage early game or it will KO'd by Groudons EQ. However if Groudon dies, you will need to have it weakened before killing it with Genosects Ice Beam. Spoiler Genesect @ Choice Scarf Trait: Download EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk) - U-turn - Explosion - Flamethrower - Ice Beam Chandelure (M) @ Choice Scarf Trait: Shadow Tag EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk) - Overheat - Shadow Ball - Energy Ball - Hidden Power [Ground] Groudon @ Leftovers Trait: Drought EVs: 236 HP / 232 Def / 40 Spd Impish Nature (+Def, -SAtk) - Earthquake - Dragon Tail - Stone Edge - Stealth Rock Latias (F) @ Soul Dew Trait: Levitate EVs: 200 HP / 56 SAtk / 252 Spd Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk) - Calm Mind - Psyshock - Dragon Pulse - Recover Tentacruel (M) @ Black Sludge Trait: Liquid Ooze EVs: 252 HP / 252 SDef / 4 Spd Calm Nature (+SDef, -Atk) - Knock Off - Toxic Spikes - Rapid Spin - Toxic Ho-Oh @ Leftovers Trait: Regenerator EVs: 204 HP / 252 Atk / 52 Spd Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk) - Sacred Fire - Brave Bird - Substitute - Recover
I think you need an importable. For Groudon, Stone Edge is a better choice than Rock Slide. For Shandera, instead of Curse and Hidden Power Rock, Energy Ball and Psychic would be much better.
Nice team , but espeon is average in OU, never mind ubers, so maybe forretress to set up and rapid spin. Foretress has sturdy too. Espeon can be used well with Focus Sash though, as it can kill some pokémon, but then it gets trapped it by Shandera. :l Shadow Ball will hurt though, and you survive with Sash.
Yeh I know but combined with something like Shed Shell Nattorei it can give me real problems, Fire Punch on Groudon is an option but I'm not sure I want to give up beating Ho-Oh or being able to phaze. Also Matt, even though Energy Ball and Psychic are good for Shandera in OU both moves are largely useless in ubers, as they really don't hit much, especially Psychic. And I originally ran Stone Edge on Groudon but its shaky accuracy is just begging Ho-Oh to get a free sub so I changed to Rock Slide since the move is pretty much just for Ho-Oh. Edit: Espeon has actually surprised me with this team, not only reflecting hazards which plague this team, especially since spinning is damn near impossible in ubers, he also provides a nice switch in against status type moves and a full stop to Jumpluff (actually quite a threat to this team with the sun up). Ive tried sun teams with Forry before and I still struggle to use them (that may be more because I hate using such a defensive pokemon when most of my play is offense based.)
Energy ball in ubers isn't going to do much, unless you are playing against Groudon, and maybe does reasonable damage to Kyogre, but whatever. Psychic is to hit...yes...the super ubers pokemon...Toxicroak?
The one with Calm Mind? Like you will kill him with an non STABbed move at +1, sure, I like the idea of Psychic EDIT: my bad, I forgot Poison Arceus
Energy Ball still isnt really useful against Groudon since Overheat does much more and OHKOs most Groudon, and Shadow Ball does decent enough damage to Kyogre.
STAB'd neutral Overheat in the Sun does a lot more than a 2x super effective Psychic. Hell, even without the Sun it does more. Just because something says "super effective" doesn't mean it's doing more damage. I don't really understand the point of Curse. The situation you gave is ridiculously situational and shouldn't even be an issue. Energy Ball isn't a complete waste of a move slot so just use that instead.
Curse allows me to stop last pokemon CM Arceus if Ho-Oh is gone. It also allows me to occasionally sacrifice Shandera to give the next pokemon a free switch in. Finally it helps deal with Inconsistent (although granted that seems likely to be banned soon, at least on the smogon server) but since Energy Ball Really does nothing I chose Curse just because this team still has slight problems breaking down walls.
Bumped for very updated original post, changed around some of the pokemon,moves, EVs, natures and items. Due to the differences in the team alot of the current threatlist wont apply so I've removed it and will edit in an updated one later.
I've battled this team on numerous occasions and watched your battles against several other high ranked players on the ladder and both lead to a similar verdict: A great team which I can't really point out many flaws in. It has its stops to both physical and special threats in Groudon, Ho-oh and Latias, along with two great revenge killers. Espeon gives any Pokemon which try set up hazards severe hassle, and Zekrom can quite happily run through stall teams like a knife through hot butter once Shandera traps and KOes Groudon. The only immediate threat which presents itself is Scarf Zekrom if Groudon is trapped and KOed by opposing Shandera, as it essentially boils down to a 50/50 situation as to whether your ScarfKrom will Outrage first, or whether Ho-oh can burn it with Sacred Fire (Presuming it can survive an Outrage, I don't know the exact calculation), as Shandera, Latias and Espeon would all be outsped and OHKOed. Still, its consistent #1 rank and the amount of people who I've seen using either the old or updated version of it speaks volumes as to how effectively it works. I would use it myself I were slightly less stubborn.
I have to disagree with how good you say this team is. I have played it with my own, self-made subrecover ho-oh and my actual uber team against many people, and this team doesn't do all that well. Once, 1 person goes down the rest of the team struggles due to the lost of a key player. I took out latias with my kyogre and proceeded to causing havoc since my kyogre was backed with a scarfchomp so zekrom couldn't do anything to hurt me. The team is very well thought out, but its not one of the greatest teams I have ever played
This exact team (With the only exception of Genosekuto instead of Zekrom in a couple of places) currently occupies the #1, #8, #10 and #13 spots on the Dream World Ubers leaderboard. Those are simply the ones which are j99ubers alts on the server. koinzell_uber sits at #15 and twc is at #20, and both use the team. Would you say a team is that good when it occupies 6 out of the top 20 spaces on the leaderboard? I would.
well, you sir have made a great point, i will only say, that I, myself, don't have much trouble with this team. I still don't think it isn't one of the greatest teams, but its still a good team, I would probably need to play the creator of the team to truly rate it based on its best performace. Also, i played TWC 3 times under my Raichu fan name, first time he won and from there I started winning. TWC is a good player, but once stealth rock was on the field it all went down hill.
Yeh, Flub, I'm still not sure on the Geno to Zekrom changes, since obviously the Genosect teams did well on the ladder, but Zekrom deals with Ho-Oh better, so I feel I might switch back to Geno and play around the Ho-Oh threat. And dragonmaster, your right if Stealth Rock is on the field the game can become very difficult, so alot of the early game strategy revolves around keeping Stealth Rock off the field, which fortunately I have been able to do in the majority of my games. EDIT: Edited to say I decided to exchange Zekrom for Genosect.
I would utterly love to know how you play around opposing Ho-Oh, For I have trouble with them Also, I'm pretty sure Max Speed Darkrai outspeeds Modest ScarfDera, that could cause trouble Giratina and Giratina-O are intimidating, does Shadow Claw OHKO the Mixed Variant? I have many questions for this team, you're strategies seems effective, though some are a little complicated One more question: Is it true Inconsistent got banned from Ubers? That ability is the thing that caused my 1 month hiatus from the DW Ubers Tier
OK, first of all yes opposing Ho-Oh are slightly troublesome to handle but I run a few extra speed EVs on Groudon to try to outrun the standard SubRecover variant, which are definitely the most threatening, Genosect can also OHKo with Explosion, and Toxic from Espeon can shorten its lifespan. Max speed Darkrai cannot outspeed modest Shandera, only mewtwo can, and thankfully I have Latias to deal with the Fire Blast variants and Genosect to deal with the Ice Beam variants. Giratina isnt too threatening since Shandera can 2HKO with Shadow Ball. Giratina-O is a bit harder to handle, and I have to try and predict around it, though thankfully Ho-Oh has the bulk to take any of its attacks and hopefully burn it with Sacred Fire. Shadow Claw won't OHKO Giratina-O but I think it deals around 60% or so, so can hurt it after a little prior damage. And yes Inconsistent is now banned from ubers.
Well, like I said Shandera can 2HKO and most Giratina-A cant OHKO back. Latias should also beat it one on one, and it wont like trying to stall out Ho-Ohs Brave Bird since one Critical Hit will mean Giratina dies to Ho-Oh.
Your team is really good. I have battled it multiple times and I have always lost. >.<. I really want to try sub-roost ho-oh now after getting swept by it.
I think this team needs another steel type. How about forretress over espeon? forretress can spin the hazards and take dragon/dark/ghost hits
Hmm, well Forretress over Espeon is something that I have tested in the past, and while access to Spikes and Toxic Spikes is great, there are a couple of problems with it. First of all, I lose my ability to Toxic things like Lugia who are a pain to kill otherwise. But the most important reason is just how difficult spinning is in ubers. With the bulk of things like Ghost Arceus and Giratina-O it means that Ho-Oh wont be able to enter the field easily, when in fact now it is usually my best switchin to those usual spinblockers that you find in stall teams. Due to it being my special wall it finds it much harder to come in on threats if its at 50%. Granted the main disadvantage of Espeon is that once rocks are down, they stay down. But mostly prediction can save me in my matches, but its definitely something that I have thought about in the past.
Hmm, yes you're right it can, but I made a fix to that and I'll update it in the OP. I've decided to change Shadow Claw on Genesect for Flamethrower. Even with a jolly nature it still has alot of power after a SpA boost.
Really nice team, only one problem I can though, Specs Kyogre can really do a number Espeon takes a really important part in this team, as the thin line between wether Ho-Oh gets to survive or not Reshiram could also be a pain, but only when holding specs, since without it Ho-Oh could wall Dragon Pulse only taking 40% damage And opposing Genosect could be annoying too, unless cornered But overall a really nice team Also, I noticed some people are using this team to ladder >_>
If u reli wanna keep ur espeon why dont u make it a dual screener? with yawn and psyshock as filler? itll defntli help ur ho oh and latias set up lol
Everyone is using this team lol, this is one of the most used Archived teams i have seen. I faced 3 of them in a row one day.
Specs Ogre is a bit of a problem but Latias tends to handle it quite well. Also, something I've been testing in the team helps take the burden off of Latias for taking hits from Ogre - Tentacruel. I've used this a bit over Espeon so that the opponent getting SR down isn't always gg anymore. Chandelure can eliminate most ghosts without too much trouble. However I'm not 100% on updating the original post with Tenta yet, I will test it more. Also I've added a little speed on Ho-Oh, to outspeed almost all enemy Groudon and sub up on their Stone Edge, and added more speed on Groudon for virtually the same reason, to hit enemy Ho-Oh before they sub.
This has become my favorite team. The dual revenge killers that cover each others weaknesses with near perfect synergy makes this team epic. Hazards - Espeon Revenge Killers - Genosect + Shandera Special Wall - Latias (Backed by geno whom resists bug 4x and dark 2x and can revenge kill with atleast a 2x attack.) Physical Wall- Groudon Hybrid Wall - Ho-oh If anything poses a threat to either of the walls, all you need to do is switch to a revenge killer. Whats best is that whenever its genosect's turn to revenge kill, you can predict the switch and trap it with shandera. Once one of the revege killers gets rid of the threat(s) on the other team, the walls are powerful enough to sweep. (Normally latias or ho oh)