Over Centralization in ORAS Ubers

Discussion in 'Gen 6 Ubers' started by Konzern, Apr 4, 2016.

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  1. ZoroDark

    ZoroDark i know everything

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    i have extremely busy this week, so ill do this + baton pass stuff in the weekend
     
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  2. Funbot28

    Funbot28 Active Member

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    @ZoroDark @cries in vain So now that the BP suspect is finished, has a decision on a primal suspect reached a verdict yet?
     
  3. Konzern

    Konzern Banned

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    I was told to not create a new thread so i guess I'm wondering, will this ban be left to tl discretion as the bp ban oo. or can we actually have a mathematical way of doing things where votes count n such. other ideas r cool cause reqs r kinda lame imo
     
  4. cries in vain

    cries in vain not a prayer unsung

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    the 'ban' isn't left 2 tl discretion. whether or not 2 suspect is left 2 tl discretion. if there is a suspect then the suspect ladder will be up and the community will ladder and those who get the reqs will be allowed 2 vote like other previous suspects (xern/stag)
     
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  5. ZoroDark

    ZoroDark i know everything

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    We're not suspecting anything.

    We have to follow the tiering policy which states that bans can only take place in case the metagame reaches a certain degree of unplayability. Mega Rayquaza serves as a prime example, because it made every playstyle outside of offense completely unviable. Primal Groudon is definitely a centralizing force, but that doesn't make it bannable. PDon is actually one of the main reasons why balanced and other more defensive inclined playstyles are viable since it provides a catch-all check to some of Ubers' other dangerous threats like Xerneas or Primal Kyogre. The other side of the coin is that PDon limits the viability of other defensive mons at the same time, but the introduction of a new Pokemon to any tier always has this sort of effect. The tier leaders are in unison that the unplayability argument isn't strong enough to warrant a suspect on Primal Groudon (or Primal Kyogre or Mega Mence or Xerneas or any other mon).

    This means that if we were to go along with a suspect of any kind, we risk breaking tiering. Banning Primal Groudon on grounds other than unplayability opens the door to bans on plenty of other mons (POgre, MMence and Xerneas come to mind) and Ubers would lose its identity. If we hypothetically disregard the tiering policy and the ripple effect on tiering as a whole, there's another reason why a suspect would be unenviable. A suspect resulting in a ban would very much unstabilize the metagame. With SuMo being right around the corner, this is something that we'd very much like to avoid.

    I'm going to leave this thread open for a while, so you guys can bitch without opening new threads, but this decision is final.
     
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  6. Funbot28

    Funbot28 Active Member

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    Look I am not here to sway any opinions as I understand that the decision is final, I just wanna ask why this cannot be considered when precedent does exist (*note: I am not using Mega Rayquaza as an anomaly), but rather the Geomancy + Power Herb suspect back in XY, which I will link here: http://pokemon-online.eu/threads/official-geomancy-suspect-discussion.28473/

    Reading off this thread, the suspect had turned official due to the fact that GeoXern limited teambuilding and overcentralized the metagame to the point that running 2-3 checks to it were needed for it, which in fact made it nigh unplayabel due ot the amount of threats needed to be covered for the metagame, amking it overwhelming at times. Now I know Primal Groudon may not have the immediate power compared to GeoXern and that the amount of checks.counters may be greater then Xern, however ORAS blessed (or maybe hurt us) with the implementation of various new threats to deal with (including Soul Dew Latis, Primal Kyogre, Mega Salamence, Dragon Ascent Rayquaza, Mega Diancie, etc..) that deciding to run your two P-Don checks may b edetrimental for your team to deal with the various other scary mons in the tier. Coming from substantial Uber players and Leaders on Smogon:

    Now abvoiusly Primal Groudon does not make the meta unplayable like Mega Gengar, Swagger, and Baton Pass did, but the ubiquity of all these threats and how diverse there required checks are made up of makes it "subjectively" (*by a large majority of the community) non-enjoyable and difficult to play at its highest competitive level. All my reasonings are stated by other proficient players in the quotes above me.

    All I am asking for is perhaps a ladder running for approximately 2 weeks, where maybe Primal Groudon (or both Primals if ogre may be a bit too much) are banned just to test and expirement how the meta will turn out. We never would know unless we actually try and visualize this primaless meta without theorymonning (who knows I could be completeltly wrong).

    Call this bitching, whinning, bickering whatever, but I know for a fact that there is a problem in the current ORAS Ubers metagame, and I feel it should be allowed to discuss on matters such as these, and not be stopped with the argument of keeping Ubers philosphy (whatever that means...).
     
  7. cries in vain

    cries in vain not a prayer unsung

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    the xern suspect was held b4 the implementation of the new tiering policy and there's a trenchant discongruity b/w the tiering philosophy of ubers and other lower tiers like ou/uu etc
    we only suspect/ban if smth's making the meta unplayable 2 an alarming degree whereas the lower tiers ban 2 preserve metagame balance and to keep centralizing forces in check
    also sun/moon being incredibly close meant if/we/suspected and pdon got banned it could give rise 2 an unstable meta and may call for further suspects which quite frankly isn't what should be happening a few months b4 a new generation
    also as far as those quotes from the established smogon players go(w/ all due respect) i don't think i should be commenting on that as the TDs from the aforementioned site never made it clear as 2 why ubers wasn't included in the premier league and w/o knowing the exact reasons it's hard 2 comment on that

    pce
     
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  8. Konzern

    Konzern Banned

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    Was like baton pass excempt from this rule or something...

    Anyways your argumentation of sun and moon is kinda invalid considering that the new legendaries already from typing look to be horrible. While you could say that theorymonning is not substancial isnt that exactly what your doing by saying "it will promote an unbalanced metagame" i am simply going off of confirmed information..

    Anyways on a side note. Can I host an Ubers tour w/o the orbs cause I think it would b fun.
     
  9. Funbot28

    Funbot28 Active Member

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    Also touching upon the Sun and Moon argument, the thing is do we want to the tier to stay at its current state until it invetiable stays stagnant when the new gen comes out? If so many players consider ORAS Ubers aids and do not enjoy playing it, doesn't that not intervene with unplayability? (I am not saying unplayable = unenjoyable, but the fact that players feel restricted upon playing a meta they do not wish to develop because of these "unconventional" factors involved).

    Also @cries in vain, Ubers was not added to SPL due to the fact that there was not many players who were interested in playing the format because of Primal Groudon's effect on the meta. This aspect furthers my point as an element in a tier should not prevent it from being added to official tournaments (which again brings up the point of unplayability), which in that case was alarming tbh.
     
  10. Konzern

    Konzern Banned

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    I guess to go off of what funbot said, bans that we do don't have to be transitive to the next generation. the only example that is like this in Ubers is Mewtwo in gen 1 where it was unbanned at the start of gen 2. (Ik im old!) if the banning of pdon in ORAS Ubers is determined to b better for the metagame in terms of playability but people are worried about an unbalanced metagame for SM then we can just unban Pdon for the start of gen 7 and let it still b banned in gen 6. I fail to see why this is a problem and has been done in many lower tiers and done before in ubers although I doubt anyone else here was playing on net battle back then.. also on a side note while I understand the idea of only banning for playability which is what the tiering philosophy says, we are calling for a suspect not a ban and the semantics of a ban not being allowed shouldn't b an argument without a suspect underway. who knows maybe we don't wanna ban pdon and resorting to the tiering philosophy was pointless after all. all I am tryna say is that I feel this decision was partly because you do not want to break precedent but covering it up with invalid arguments isn't really the best way to go about it.
     
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  11. cries in vain

    cries in vain not a prayer unsung

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    ok locking this
    if any1 has any queries feel free 2 contact me via pm
     
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