Over Centralization in ORAS Ubers

Discussion in 'Gen 6 Ubers' started by Konzern, Apr 4, 2016.

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  1. cries in vain

    cries in vain not a prayer unsung

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    les just go w/ the tried and true tiering policy and discuss how pdon is unhealthy for and makes the meta close to unplayable
    i still wanna c some sort arguments for mence though as no1 has brought them up efficiently yet and i'm genuinely curious as to what other players think about mence in the tier
     
  2. Funbot28

    Funbot28 Active Member

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    Well I believe Mega Salamence increases the volatility of the metagame due to the immense pressure it can hold when it starts setting up in many given opportunities throughout the match. It does have checks to it (Klefki, Skarmory, Arceus Rock, Dialga, Arceus Water), but it can outlast many of these checks most of the time due to its capabilities of restoring its HP and curing status conditions. It may not have the high usage and splashability as Primal Groudon, but its power level is certainly one not to take lightly considering how easy it can be to setup and sweep at times. Even pairing DD Mega Mence + Rock Polish Primal Groudon can be overwhelming at times, forcing only super bulky balance teams to withstand their power.

    Of course there are many more dangerous threats in the tier, but I find getting rid of the two most prominent ones for the sake of creativity and diversity justifies reasoning to the argument of banning them to me. Nothing can ever compare perfectly to Mega Rayquaza, but should we allow it to be the sole representation of whats bannable in Ubers if different cases and circumstances can arise?
     
  3. Email

    Email reformed xd

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    Hoopa-U is a thing too js ^~^
     
  4. sulcata

    sulcata stéphane curry best waifu Forum Moderator Server Administrator Forum Moderator Server Administrator

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    @Funbot28, how does it justify the reasoning when it's explicitly against our tiering policy. Mega Rayquaza isn't the representation of what's bannable, the Ubers Tiering Policy is the determinant of that. The entire point of making this policy was to allow Ubers to be somewhat tiered without subjecting it to the same goals and policies of usage based tiers.

    If you want to ban Primal Groudon for reasons like centralization and creativity then you're going to have to get rid of the policy which allows you to ban things in the first place and rewrite an acceptable alternative from scratch. Do keep in mind the reason we have a policy is so that we have some sort of end goal to be aiming for, changing it for every suspect as it's convenient for us runs counter to that goal and would likely result in a very arbitrary and nonsensical metagame.

    Or, you could just use the policy as it is and try to prove that these mons make it unplayable.
     
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2016
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  5. Funbot28

    Funbot28 Active Member

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    You are right, but I just hear a lot of complaints saying that Mega Rayquaza should not act as precedent to banning even though their is this tiering policy. What I am trying to suggest is that many competent players have been accusing ORAS Ubers to be hypercentralized and saturated, leaving them to believe it is "unplayable" in their own right. The policy is valid, but we must accustom to the general sentiments of the playerbase in these cases, as then what it the point of maintaining a tier if a significant majority (not saying all) don't feel it to be as competitive and tactfully as possible.

    The volatility is truthfully absurd, and can be deemed "unplayable" due to the fact that there is too many significant and important pokemon to check/counter properly, and I feel this issue will only continue to grow periodically.
     
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  6. sulcata

    sulcata stéphane curry best waifu Forum Moderator Server Administrator Forum Moderator Server Administrator

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    Mega Rayquaza isn't even a precedent is it? Xerneas and Shadow Tag came well before it iirc. Even so, this tiering policy wasn't decided with only them in mind. What you're defining as unplayable and what the policy defines as unplayable are just explicitly and completely different in both definition and intended consequences.

    If you want to change tiering policy, that should be done distinctly from suspects in order to prevent the policy from being catered to a specific suspect.
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2016
  7. Konzern

    Konzern Banned

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    I really don't understand the rational in leaving a broken tier as is that can be improved but doesn't improve solely based on a tiering policy made back in 2014. I think we should not only suspect the following mons but rework the tiering policy so that it promotes a healthy metagame instead of persevering a tiering way. I'm sure if we have some valuable data as to the tier with the proposed changes compared to how it is right now, we would see a sway in opinions (for the better). can we get a suspect going already. I think there is a consensus that one is needed although a ban would we be controversial with our tiering. if we deem that the tier is fine as is without the proposed changes then we drop it all together but if the tier is better with said changes we can find a way to justify a ban or rework the tiering policy. I think player opinion and player base should come first while tradition should come second in terms of metagames.
     
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  8. Email

    Email reformed xd

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    js Mega Ray was crazy, I mean look at the numbers,
    only mon in ubers without being restricted that has 800 BST

    +2 252 Atk Life Orb Rayquaza Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Primal Groudon: 372-439 (92 - 108.6%) -- 50% chance to OHKO - groudon gets out sped at +2 and just dies

    +2 252 Atk Life Orb Mega Rayquaza Rayquaza Dragon Ascent vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Lugia: 390-460 (93.9 - 110.8%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO

    I think our tiering policy for ubers is fine
    Having Primals and Mega mence/gengar keeps the tier competitive, for me it makes me think outside the box and use mons I would think wouldn't suffice in ubers.

    Even though the Primals/Megas are a bitch to deal with sometimes, just because they are tough and tedious shouldn't be a reason to ban them. Ik i've said a couple times in chat saying we should ban them but that was out of despite of losing in battle do to a mistake on my behalf.

    The lower ladder of ubers is actually fun because that's where all the people are who are testing teams that have a competitive/creative aspect to the team and not spamming the Mons they want gone.
     
  9. cries in vain

    cries in vain not a prayer unsung

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    @Konzern i think sulcata has a p valid point that if u actually want 2 rework the tiering policy it should be done disjointedly else u would be cutting the gordian knot and setting a precedent for fucking w/ the tiering policy for a specific suspect test which is obv retarded and if the tiering policy needs to be reworked it has to be done independent of sentiments w/ regard 2 a specific suspect

    depicting how pdon and mence make the tier unhealthy and nigh unplayable would be the best course of action
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2016
  10. Arii Stella'

    Arii Stella' next to ü

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    The only reason because I hate Primal Groudon is because limits the teambuilder & its a bit difficult to build around good and amazing pokemon such as Mega Lucario, Mega Mawile, Mega Kangaskhan etc. But it doesn't make ORAS Ubers unplayable & as someone said this is not OU v2, if they ban Pdon, Pogre, Mence then we won't be playing ORAS we'll be back to XY with a mix of ORAS.
    Also, about Mega Salamence,there are some good checks you can use to stop it (Arceus-Water|Dragon|Rock, Lugia, Skarmory)
    I already know I'm just an absolute random on this site but I like to play Ubers & I have some experience playing the tier & "Ugh I hate Pdon is on every Ubers team" is not a reason to send it to AG.
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2016
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  11. cries in vain

    cries in vain not a prayer unsung

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    while no1 minds u posting even if u'r a random,in fact ur insight would probably be appreciated
    this is absurd
    read the 40+ posts
    no1 said 'rofl what is this joke pdon is on every fucking team ban this shit'
    there have been legitimate and perspicacious arguments posted regarding playability and unhealthiness of the meta due to pdon and idk who u'r trying 2 call out b/c no1 said 'ugh i hate pdon it's on every team' or anything congruent w/ that line
     
  12. Arii Stella'

    Arii Stella' next to ü

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    Uhm I think you are confused, I didn't specify someone saying that line in this thread haha.. it was just a stupid example from people who wants Pdon banned when they have no idea how to play Ubers.
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2016
  13. sulcata

    sulcata stéphane curry best waifu Forum Moderator Server Administrator Forum Moderator Server Administrator

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    @cries in vain, 'ugh i hate pdon it's on every team' is more or less congruent to the usage stats/diversity arguments, just a bit less nuanced I suppose. It has been brought up before in various forms in this thread. I would however count the idea of centralization as distinct from it though, depending on definitions.

    I don't think this type of thinking means they don't know how to play ubers, only that they don't understand how and why we have an ubers tiering policy to begin with (or are just trying to ignore it).

    as an aside, arii dont worry about being a 'random', this whole thread is mostly randoms+people who don't play much ubers lol (i fall into the latter category, or both)
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2016
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  14. cries in vain

    cries in vain not a prayer unsung

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    how is 'ugh pdon is on every team' congruent w/ diversity arguments arguments lol
    pdon getting 100% usage isn't the reason ppl r making diversity arguments
    it's b/c u need 3-4 checks for the mon and every build turns up more or less identical and u also need to make sure those 3 mons have sufficient synergy and their roles in general don't overlap or u'll get tossed by other threats which ultimately makes the meta rly unhealthy and nigh unplayable
    (assuming that u mean staleness of the meta by 'diversity arguments')
     
  15. Funbot28

    Funbot28 Active Member

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    I think by having a ladder without the Primals and Mega Mence, we can then have a poll to see how many players actually enjoy the metagame without their presence. If they do, then we hold a suspect, if they don't than we don't change anything. Putting aside all policies and protocols, its the public's decision that matters since this is a community runned project in the end.
     
  16. cries in vain

    cries in vain not a prayer unsung

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    having a separate ladder isn't a gud idea b/c it'll just be a ded ladder on which a few ppl play and most of the time can't ever find games
    the suspect needs 2 be on the regular ladder 100%
     
  17. sulcata

    sulcata stéphane curry best waifu Forum Moderator Server Administrator Forum Moderator Server Administrator

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    @cries in vain that sounds more like a centralization argument than a diversity argument. The one person who cited diversity didn't elaborate and left it relatively vague. Also this is actually a very good argument for being unplayable. If the checks needed to beat 1 poke aren't viable and create incredibly lopsided teams then that's pretty unplayable (if the checks are viable that's another story).

    Yeah this is the problem I'm having. People are way too eager to just throw away the thing allowing us to ban anything in the first place. Has anyone made a good case as to why we should just say "screw having a policy"? The policy was designed specifically so that Ubers would retain the feeling of being 'Ubers' without it being completely unplayable (i.e. matches decided before the game starts or by luck almost entirely). I don't see why people want to adopt OU-esque banning policies, as that's really the only thing separating Ubers from OU. If people want to ban things solely because "it's good" or "it's broken" or "it's what the playerbase wants", then they probably should've picked up OU or something.

    It's not like saying "screw having a policy" is the only way to have Primal Groudon banned. You can actually make this point as others have made above without adopting policies that turn Ubers into OU.

    We should also probably limit testing to 1 thing at a time. Primal Groudon + Mence at the same time sounds like it'd interfere with the results.


    tl;dr banning Primal Groudon doesn't make Ubers into OU, adopting a shitty policy in order to do so does
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2016
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  18. Konzern

    Konzern Banned

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    Just to point out that matches over 50% of the time are decided before they every begin because of the primals and mence. Oras Ubers is the most matchup based tier this gen and arguably ever. if this isn't an argument for u playability then idk what is. the problem that mence and the primals have caused is that more niche mons are needed to check the primals and mence but these also open up weaknesses to many different Pokemon. it is a fact that matchup is a huge issue that can be fixed w the orbs and mence banned. I don't think I need to post a plethora of replays as to way this tier is matchup based. any competent player realizes this.
     
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  19. La.Melle2402

    La.Melle2402 I'm the bone of my sword

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    Its pretty dumb to discuss about banning the Primals or Mega Mence. In XY Kyogre was spammed like nothing else, but it wasnt banned bc its broken. After banning the primals are gone Kyogre will be spammed again. I wouldnt say this tier is broken. There isnt a single pokemon that has no checks or counters. There are many strong Pokemon in this tier so you need to focus on checking modt of these strong Pokemon. The hard part isnt to find a pdon or mmence check. After banning them other pokemon will be spammed and that increase the usuage of some other Pokemon. But that wouldnt balance the tier. One example:
    We ban the primals -> Specs/Scarf Kyogre will be spammed
    To check Kyogre we spam Palkias and Gastrodons. Thats really not what i understand as a balanced tier.
    And @Konzern, if u want to play Ubers without Primals and Mega mence you can play XY Ubers. Maybe you dont know it, but i talked to Professor Oak and he brought XY Ubers and XY OU back some month ago.
     
  20. sulcata

    sulcata stéphane curry best waifu Forum Moderator Server Administrator Forum Moderator Server Administrator

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    @Konzern, you should probably make a case as to why the game is finished before it's started and why beating them is next to impossible then. "Any competent player realizes this" is just a lazy cop out. The point of a discussion is to establish facts and to prove a point one way or the other, not to just assume talking points. Match up has always been an issue, in pretty much every gen; what makes it so much worse in ORAS Ubers?

    edit: melle, XY and theorymon don't have much to do with a discussion in ORAS :v


    you know a discussion is good when people start saying 'plethora' :]
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2016
  21. Konzern

    Konzern Banned

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    I never knew XY had soul dew, msab, and mega diance lol. ill post the replays later.

    i fail to see what was so funny about my post. i don't see how a banning of the 3 would lead the tier to be like xy ubers. also i don't understand why you are against a suspect. i am not calling for a quickban and all of your assertions are based up theorymonning
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 7, 2016
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  22. Professor Oak

    Professor Oak same Forum Administrator Server Owner Social Media Rep Forum Administrator Server Owner Social Media Rep

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    I've had to remove 4 posts that added nothing to the discussion, and edit a couple of others to keep them in line too.

    Further posts that do not add anything to the discussion will result in infractions.
     
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  23. cries in vain

    cries in vain not a prayer unsung

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    so here's why i think mence 'could' stay in the tier
    it cannot be paired up w/ mgar which is the most viable stag user in ubers which somewhat tranquilizes the situation
    there r some p decent checks which serve many other roles apart from checking mence (keys/some support ceus/lugia etc)
    and mence somewhat holds a portion of the meta together defensively
    i'm rly keen to hear more arguments about mence
     
  24. Konzern

    Konzern Banned

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    well I think the problem with Mence is that just suspecting red orb will be useless without one of its premier checks pdon. so it's kinda of an effect of if we ban something just to let something else take pdons place there is no point. gothi is capable of beating all of mences checks actually?? so stag can be paired very effectively with mence.
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2016
  25. cries in vain

    cries in vain not a prayer unsung

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    u can't run mgar lol
    mence alr takes up the mega....? remove mgar from within the brackets where u mention stag
    didn't get ur first line btw elaborate pls
    as for ur second line thas what i wanna know as 2 how mence is capable enough of fucking up the tier even if pdon goes and should be suspected lol
    basically arguments for/against mence
    u kinda reiterated my q w/o the q mark
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2016
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  26. sulcata

    sulcata stéphane curry best waifu Forum Moderator Server Administrator Forum Moderator Server Administrator

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    So the reason to ban mence is because we think it'll probably make the tier unplayable after banning Primal Groudon. That's theorymon. If there's not currently a reason to ban it, then we shouldn't ban it. I mean if that's what it ends up doing then we can go back and suspect it but that's an extremely premature test to be running it at the same time (same goes for Primal Kyogre as far as I can see). By definition Ubers is a tier which strives for the least bans and shouldn't be banning things just by merit of how the meta could look. Not that this kind of theorymon would've sufficed even in an OU thread anyway, where the requirements are less strict.
     
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  27. cries in vain

    cries in vain not a prayer unsung

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    pogre w/o pdon will rly fuck up the tier b/c twave cm pogre fucks over every check and breaks shit apart in general
    and palkia can't check pogre well after the sdef buff anyways
    there isn't much theorymon here it's inevitable
     
  28. Konzern

    Konzern Banned

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    I was wondering what the opposition is to an actual suspect. I understand a ban is controversial but suspecting something doesn't go against the tiering policy and really gets us away from all this theorymonning that people say can't be proven. Right now we are talking about if they are ban worthy which is controversial but the idea of a suspect doesn't seem to have any real opposition. A suspect will only help the tier so I fail to see what is holding this back from happening.
     
  29. sulcata

    sulcata stéphane curry best waifu Forum Moderator Server Administrator Forum Moderator Server Administrator

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    A suspect is fine, that's basically what this is anyway. You don't need to test ban things to have a suspect, in fact most suspects don't ban what's being suspected so people can actually experience what is being debated.

    Seeing as this basically is a suspect, I've been pointing out how terrible some of the pro-ban and anti-ban arguments have been so far (not all though).
     
  30. Konzern

    Konzern Banned

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    a suspect includes a suspect ladder which i think would help a decision come up. especially with a possible Pokemon Online Ubers League coming up soon we need to get this hashed out or decide to do nothing. Either way a decision must be come to.
     
  31. sulcata

    sulcata stéphane curry best waifu Forum Moderator Server Administrator Forum Moderator Server Administrator

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    actually most/all suspects dont have a suspect ladder here. it's just "play the tier and see what this pokemon is doing". since we're testing only whether or not these poke(s) make the metagame unplayable, i doubt it'd actually need a suspect ladder. i'm pretty sure we all have a working understanding of what a playable meta is in general.

    edit: ok some ubers suspects had it, but is there a reason that we need to not see how the poke we're trying to ban works while hashing out arguments?
     
  32. cries in vain

    cries in vain not a prayer unsung

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    i'm actually more in favor of a suspect on the regular ladder sometime in the future b/c it actually allows u to experience the meta first hand although a bit more discussion is probably for the best and we haven't even had any gud arguments for suspecting mence yet
     
  33. cries in vain

    cries in vain not a prayer unsung

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    bump
    can we not let this thread die prematurely pls?
    opinions on mence still haven't been voiced yet by the masses and we still haven't reached a consensus as to when the suspect ladder is to be implemented and if mence should be suspected at all
     
  34. Lacus Clyne

    Lacus Clyne This might get unpleasant!

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    Requesting that this finally gets implemented.
    Just make a suspect ladder for a week and we all will find out if this makes ORAS Ubers more healthy.
     
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  35. Funbot28

    Funbot28 Active Member

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    seconding this, so at least we can test to see if the metagame actually gets better without P-Don
    @ZoroDark @Draciel
     
  36. Konzern

    Konzern Banned

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    just pdon or the orbs and salamencite. i think this is the best attempt if we go for a balanced metagame but w.e the community wants.
     
  37. cries in vain

    cries in vain not a prayer unsung

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    just the orbs i think
    there wasn't sufficient discussion 2 suspect mence imo
     
  38. OUAzumarill

    OUAzumarill Active Member

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    Honestly so far I haven't even been convinced that blue orb needs to be suspected. Even among the arguments of this thread, the only Pokemon that everyone agrees is at least somewhat of a problem is P-don, and this is the tier of small and conservative bannings of only stuff that is unbelievably broken.
     
  39. Funbot28

    Funbot28 Active Member

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    its just that if Primal Groudon is potentially banned, than it would be inevitable that Primal Kyogre will also become a huge problem since it lost one of its biggest checks (maybe counter).
     
  40. Funbot28

    Funbot28 Active Member

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    sorry for double posting, but tagging @ZoroDark to see his opinion on this
     
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