Over Centralization in ORAS Ubers

Discussion in 'Gen 6 Ubers' started by Konzern, Apr 4, 2016.

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  1. Konzern

    Konzern Banned

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    Tagging @BLUFF GOD aka Problems because he expressed concern in this issue and gave me the idea to bring this up to the Pokemon Online.

    I'm here to discuss whether some re-tiering of Primal Groudon and Mega Salamence in ORAS Ubers should be done. With the banishment of Mega Rayquaza, it was proof that Ubers is not a banlist but instead a tier that is capable of banning for the sake of balancing the metagame. Smogon's tier I philosophy for ubers has been banning for the sake of playability and the tier leaders refuse the idea of a suspect for these two Pokemon. Statistics from UPL shows that Primal Groudon had a usage of 95 percent while Salamence was on 82 percent of offensive teams. These figures are staggering to me especially the Primal Groudon one because it shows that this Pokemon is so restricting when teambuilding. I think a interesting suspect would be to ban Primal Groudon, Primal Kyogre, and Mega Salamence. With the absence of Primal Groudon, Primal Kyogre would be to much to handle and would thus need to be removed to have a playable tier. While some would argue Xerneas would be over powering with its premier check gone, Mega Gengar would have even more usage with a Mega Salamence gone along with sand becoming even more viable with the primals gone. This along with the release of soul dew in oras which makes Ho-Oh stronger would be enough to balance Xerneas out. I am not asking for a ban of any sort without some substantial proof but I believe a possible suspect would separate ourselves from smogon and promote a playable more balanced metagame that also promotes creativity. I would just like to have some discussion of the possibility of this as I think this would be healthy for ORAS Ubers and interesting.[/USER]
     
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2016
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  2. sulcata

    sulcata stéphane curry best waifu Forum Moderator Server Administrator Forum Moderator Server Administrator

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    I don't play much Ubers, but that's theorymon at best. I'm not sure how this even follows logically; the same could easily be said about regular Kyogre with that level of explanation. Perhaps there's some further reasoning, but you should probably state it before we go on with an entire suspect of it.

    As far as I know Ubers is a ban list which we are trying to make as playable as possible, hence the banning of evasion, OHKO, and in more recent times Mega Rayquaza. I believe last time the criteria for banning Mega Rayquaza was something like "does it devolve the metagame to the point where games are decided almost solely on this factor". Usage stats only show the viability of a Pokemon as perceived by the playerbase. That aside, I don't think "centralization" was ever a reason to ban something in Ubers.

    As for whether or not Primal Groudon and Mega Salamence meet this criteria, I haven't a clue.
     
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  3. Lacus Clyne

    Lacus Clyne This might get unpleasant!

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    Why would we ever ban these Pokémon? Did you ever consider that Stall would be dominating the tier with these Pokémon gone. Also is Ubers not a banlist anymore with AG around.
     
  4. Mysterious M

    Mysterious M Dream /\ Bigger

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    Banning those will destroy the tier imo. I agree that 95% Usage is a pretty high number, but it in no way restricts the teambuilding. None of the mentioned mons are overpowered and one can see this because of the amount of mons that can check them. Also, the 95% of Groudon, does not show that it is powerful. It shows that it is useful as a member in teams, as it takes on many roles (xern check,rock setter etc). I agree that Oras teams kinda lack of creativity, but making an Ubers tier without Primal Groudon, Primal Kyogre or Mega Salamence wont be more creative. As mentioned above by Lacus, stall teams will be overpowered and then the tier will be unbalanced again.. So to conclude, my opinion is keep the Oras tier as it is and try to be creative with the things you already have.
     
  5. holy break

    holy break I am the bone of my sword

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    This will literally destroy the tier and stall will dominate
     
  6. Funbot28

    Funbot28 Active Member

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    I actually addressed this on Smogon as well, but I believe Primal Groudon and Mega Salamence are two unhealthy and "broken" elements to the Ubers tier not because they do t have checks/counters, but because they both saturate and overcentralize the tier to the point that is practically just able to slap them on to any team to make it better. They both perform multiple roles (moreso P-Don) extremely well and they are so splashable. Unlike Mega Ray, they do not invalidate any team archetypes, but there ubiquitous presence and viability they bring is one to be too unhealthy in my eyes (even usage statistics back this up). Many consider ORAS Ubers to be cancerous and aids, and i believe its due to these two mons. The can of worms already opened up with Mega Rayquaza, and allowing broken elements in the tier just to look "clean" provides a lack of tiering etiquette imo.

    Regarding Primal Kyogre and Xerneas, we can cross that road once we get there, as its all theorymon as of know.

    There are still plenty of Stallbreakers in the tier without these two in CM Latis, Rest P-Ogre, Stallbreaker Mewtwo, Refresh CM Arceus formes, Substitute Nasty Plot Darkrai, Mega Diancie, etc Stall didn't dominate in XY so I cant see it happening here especially that we have a bit more powerful toys.
     
  7. Konzern

    Konzern Banned

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    I never suggested banning them but i think a separate ladder with the bans of primal groudon salamence and primal kyogre would be interesting so we could stop theorymoning and see how the tier would be. I personally believe it would be better but we can't know until we try something. Also for all the people saying stall would become over dominant, mega gengar would have even higher usage which is one stalls biggest nemesis. I fail to see how stall would become op. Stall was never an absurdly powerful play style in XY and I doubt this would happen if we implanted the bans I suggested in a suspect ladder.

    Edit: Just saw funbot covered stuff I said. As for primal kyogre, we don't really know if it would be to much to handle, but I suspect it would be. Thats the purpose of a suspect ladder I guess
     
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  8. Funbot28

    Funbot28 Active Member

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    Ya I think a "suspect" ladder would be the best course of action so this isn't all theory and stuff.
     
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  9. Serga

    Serga 2easy

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    ORAS Ubers is AIDS, but banning those 2/3 mons won't make it better, and I'd rather play the tier we have right now than a new tier in which stall will dominate.
    Anyway, it's probably a good idea to have a new tier implemented in PO, but it'll be dead just as XY Ubers or ORAS Ubers to an extent.
    So, imo it'll be better to test it in a tournament, just like the smogon OUbers tournament they did a while ago, with Primals, MegaMence and maybe MegaSab banned.
     
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  10. Mysterious M

    Mysterious M Dream /\ Bigger

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  11. Aurist

    Aurist I do not jump for joy. I frolic in doubt.

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    The criteria for banning Mega Rayquaza was "we are tiering Ubers officially and this pokemon is broken". In the words of the tier leaders themselves it was due to the Pokemon having no practical defensive checks and the tier turning into a "HO shitfest".

    There was no additional criteria that made it any different from a ban in any other tier. It was simply a ban of a broken mon from a tier.

    I am unsure if you have ever played a past generation of Ubers? Particularly Gen 5, because the tier functioned just fine with a similar base, was a better tier all-round, and Stall was good, not "overpowered", nor would it be in this gen.

    If you think 95% usage doesn't show something is powerful then you are being completely dishonest. Nothing comes even close to matching that level of centralization but Snorlax in GSC.

    I challenge you to prove that Ubers tier without Pdon and MMence (and hi Geomancy/Shadow Tag) wouldn't be more creative. Because all I see here is empty rhetoric.

    If we are to treat Ubers as a tier, which we claimed to do a long time ago but then seemed to go back on without a word spoken, then our aim should be to remove that which unbalances and breaks the tier. This includes the philosophy that has extended to every tier in PO's existence, if a broken thing is banned and that reveals a different broken aspect in the tier, then that thing is broken too. This means that it doesn't matter if removing something unhealthy reveals other unhealthy things, because that thing is unhealthy to begin with and we can work on what happens from there.

    As an aside, !!!not addressing any particular person or the posts I quoted!!!

    I'm extremely disappointed in the Ubers userbase at large who see a tier with some very evident problems to it, a tier which in its current state is viewed negatively at large by almost everyone and has been removed from major tournaments for being a nigh-unplayable mess with little to no fun factor or redeeming competitive value, and have strongly resisted any kind of change proposed to this problem through sheer stubbornness and a sense of "it's a banlist" which we were supposed to abandon literally years ago. I think it's completely ridiculous that people will hear absolutely no argument for attempts for this godawful mess to be fixed, instead citing some completely made-up idea of "ruining the tier" / "slippery slope" that doesn't contribute to the tier in any way. Let's call a broken spade a broken spade and do something about it rather than resisting change for the sake of resisting change.
     
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  12. Email

    Email reformed xd

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    The problem with ORAS Ubers isn't primal don/ogre or even mega mence, the problem that the tier is CANCER, meaning if we get rid of primal don, there's primal ogre, if we get rid of ogre, there's mence, if we get rid of mence, there's gengar, (in terms of mega) and if we get rid of those you might as well play xy ubers (remember when we tested geoxern lol) in other words all im trying to say is




    ban mega gengar that shit is AIDS

    Aside from that, what i'm trying to say is that, we can't really do anything about oras ubers without really deconstructing it apart.
     
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  13. Aurist

    Aurist I do not jump for joy. I frolic in doubt.

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    Almost like we would be tiering it. You know, like UU and LU, which would have shit like Kyurem-B and Tornadus-T respectively if we didn't ban them. But we banned Tornadus-T which made Heracross broken!!! and then Cresselia was broken!!! zzz.
     
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  14. Edna

    Edna Chasing the Dragon Forum Moderator Forum Moderator

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    Funny how people affirm with certitude that Mega Rayquaza is broken when it lasted less then 30m in Oras Ubers on PO,never got tested lol ( don't quote me saying it's not broken I didn't say that )

    I don't find Groudon and Megamence to ruin the tier, it's already a bad one compared to the old gen ones, but it's the same as OU, there is no reasons at all to not run a Pokemon that performs very well in a tier, same way everyone run Tauros/Chansey in RBY OU, Snorlax in GSC OU, Infernape in HGSS. I can understand your frustration but you basically have the tools to deal with them, even if that implies playing a more balanced/offensive way to pressure them. Arceus Dragon has proven to deal with both of them and started being an extremely potent pokemon, until you use rest Groudon paired with Blissey lol. Anyway, banning them won't change anything good, it will just make raise 150 more threats and the generation is nearly done, so changing at this rate won't benefit anyone imo.
     
  15. Aurist

    Aurist I do not jump for joy. I frolic in doubt.

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    The tier leaders affirmed this, when we practically had them anyway. Take it up with them.

    (I assume you meant Heatran in HGSS?)

    There is a very pronounced difference between "performs very well in a tier" and "completely breaks the tier and balances it around a very small amount of things". Not even RBY or GSC has that complete absence of variation that this tier very clearly has to the point of its userbase abandoning it, besides which we operate on a completely different logic in tiering oldest gens than we do in current gens. We are not the VGC, we're a community run project.

    Banning things won't raise a lot more broken threats, not a chance in hell, that's completely unfounded and betrays a complete misunderstanding of the tier, given bar a couple more minor threats we basically know what the tier looks like without the 2-3 actually broken things already.

    I'm not willing to give up on a tier because 6 months seems like a short time to get rid of the few things it would take to make a tier not a complete shitfest. If we want to move into gen 7 we should do so on the right foot and give people an actually playable tier to go back to when this gen becomes an "old gen". We refused to ban some dumb shit in OU last gen for that reason and we're worse off for it. This whole thing of finding obtuse reasons for refusing to ban completely cancerous aspects of a tier has spread to way too many tiers this gen and I'm just not having it. We should bloody well do something.
     
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  16. Edna

    Edna Chasing the Dragon Forum Moderator Forum Moderator

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    I already stated that I don't think Groudon and Megamence break the tier, there are several ways of dealing with them ( most arceus forms in general ) so yes in my opinion they perform very well only. ORAS Ubers is objectively a bad tier and whatever you ban/don't ban it will remain broken. Banning both Megamence and Groudon means Ho-Oh will have free time in Ubers ( at least impish heal bell MegaMence could deal with it so that's a thing)

    Also I did mean Infernape, because it could run a lot of sets all super good and hard to predict at times ( scarf/MixApe/SD/Nasty Plot/Sash/Band etc etc), at least in the current case you know that Mence is either going for DD and Groudon either a support set or a Rock Polish/Double Dance set. Not to add Ditto is used a lot because it counter sweeps a lot of teams so I really think the meta is better like this. I've personally been using Sash Darkrai with Ice beam as a second answer to Mence with a Defog Arc Dragon, which works pretty well at not losing vs those 2 mons. Even then, I'm not the best Ubers player so my opinion could be wrong, I have no clue about it
     
  17. Funbot28

    Funbot28 Active Member

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    This is exactly why we should have a separate ladder for approximately 2 weeks so we can actually test a meta without the primals and Mega Mence to actually see and confirm that without their presence, stuff like Ho-Oh, Xerneas and Mega Gengar would be broken (which I dont agree with). We are all just speculating without proper indication from factual evidence at this point.

    Lets see what the main boss has to say about this
    @Professor Oak
     
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2016
  18. Email

    Email reformed xd

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    I like how Mega Mence is still brought up, it isn't the only "threat" to oras ubers and certainly isn't more of a threat then mega gengar, if there should be a separate ladder it should just start without primal don/ogre first. IMO
     
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  19. Mysterious M

    Mysterious M Dream /\ Bigger

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    @Aurist I am not a older gen player, so i have no clear image about BW2 or DPP or w/e. I am a XY/Oras one, and i can have my opinion based on the tier i played a lot and i know the most about. And i can assure you, that the 95% of usage for Primal Groudon does not mean that it is overpowered. I mean, everyone has a team with it, but no one builds around it. It is used in every team because it is good as a support mon, and perhaps more than good. The tier though, is not centralized around Primal Groudon. Yeah, sure every team has a check/counter for it, but so does for Darkrai/Xerneas/Ho Oh etc..
     
  20. Konzern

    Konzern Banned

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    The only opposition I hear is stall being overly powerful which is all based on theory mon. Maybe if we had a tour with primals and mega mence banned we could prove or disprove this theorymonning and move from there. This would also allow us to see if the metagame is more innovative and balanced than it was before.
     
  21. Email

    Email reformed xd

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    Or actually have a tier leader and have suspects regarding said pokemon : ^ )

    (still no clue why people want mega mence gone there is alot of unhealthy and broken stuff on oras ubers)
     
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  22. cries in vain

    cries in vain not a prayer unsung

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    finally lol
    pdon and mence r literally the most unhealthy and over centralizing mons that this tier has ever seen and any player w/ half a brain should be well aware of that
    u may argue that kyogre had the same usage as pdon in dpp but come the fuck on it wasn't nearly as gud as pdon at ravaging a team and neither did u have mgar trapping the checks
    i mean just look at this fucking mon 180/160/150 in atk/def/spA respectively w/ an ability that grants it an immunity to the type it's quadruply weak to
    as for pdon holding much of the meta together 'defensively' ;
    look there r a myriad of mons that have become obsolete just b/c of the existence of pdon which were also rly gud defensively like various forms of arcei/stall2 and stuff.u'r just living w/ what u can compromising on the grounds of pdon at least doing smth defensively which is absolutely wrong considering the myriad of mons that would be viable w/ pdon gone
    u just cannot prepare for this mon enough and even if u theoretically
    do,mgar can fuck u over without breaking half a sweat clearing the way for pdon 2 sweep
    ppl spamming 'oras ubers is a bad tier anyways idt banning will help' forget that the main reason for the lack of creatively/cool builds or w/e r mainly due to the fact that so many pkmn r unviable and how monotonous it has become to play w/ the same mons and executing the same gameplan
    this tier would w/o a doubt benefit from pdon being gone in fact i would go as far as saying that as long as this mon remains in the tier ubers should not be included in any srs tour b/c this mon makes the tier a fucking joke
    mence i'm not sure i'd like to c what other players have 2 say regarding mence

    props 2 @Konzern and @BLUFF GOD for bringing this up

    e: lol why r ppl saying stall will dominate the tier u get back mons like mgyara/cm poisonceus/fucking sub hc krom/heatran/gliscor/thundurus/specs ogre/fucking mega maw what even the fuck r u ppl talking about if anything it's gonna nerf stall lol
     
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2016
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  23. Konzern

    Konzern Banned

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    Agree with everything that is being said with cries in vain especially how stall will not become op. This is all meaningless without some real metagame battles happening. I would be willing to host a tour with these proposed bans and see how this metagame compares to the one right now. As for the banning of Salamence, the problem with banning only Primal Groudon is that fence loses one of its only checks and becomes even more powerful that before. Primal Kyogre would have the same situation happen to it. Banning Primal Groudon would be to preserve ubers as a metagame but this is all obsolete if Mence and Ogre stay unbanned. Not to mention those two mons are complete terrors without the presence of pdon. (as if mence isn't a terror as it is LOL). Im waitiing to here some input from Draciel and Zorodark to here our options as they are the "tier leaders" for PO.
     
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  24. cries in vain

    cries in vain not a prayer unsung

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    i'm more for a suspect ladder than a tour tbh since retrospectively they've been more successful and meaningful than tours
     
  25. sulcata

    sulcata stéphane curry best waifu Forum Moderator Server Administrator Forum Moderator Server Administrator

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    I doubt a separate suspect ladder would be successful. Splitting up the Ubers ladder would make getting any information from this next to impossible. It'd have to be on the regular ladder with test bans or something. Also @Draciel and @ZoroDark would be the people you should tag, no idea why people haven't done this. I'm pretty sure Oak stepped down from tiering quite a while ago if people haven't noticed.

    Taken directly from our current tiering policy. If Mega Groudon and/or Mega Mence make ORAS Ubers completely unplayable, then there's a case for banning them. I'm not sure if people remember Mega Ray's brief run in Ubers, but that devolved the meta into "whose mega ray dies first" from what I could tell.

    Again from the tiering policy. Overcentralization is not a valid reason. Simple brokenness isn't a reason to ban them either (see the second bullet). So the only argument should be that the game is literally unplayable only because of these precise factors.

    This is the general sentiment I'm taking issue with. This is exactly the thing in the tiering policy which was explicitly excluded from valid reasons to ban in ORAS Ubers. Why would we have a formal banning policy for Ubers if we're just going to treat it like other usage tiers?

    btw, can people stop comparing current gen Ubers, which has a very unique policy, to past gen tiers who only keep the metagame as is for legacy purposes? It completely sidetracks the discussion and is literally a non-argument. This only makes sense when discussing what the tiering policy should be. We already have a tiering policy, this is simply a potential application of it.

    tl;dr we have a tiering policy and it doesn't involve centralization nor simple brokenness nor balance. Stop cluttering the thread with dumb shit unrelated to the playability ORAS Ubers as it is affected by Primal Groudon/Kyogre, Mega Mence, and whatever else people listed.
     
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  26. ZoroDark

    ZoroDark i know everything

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    For the record I am paying attention to this thread and I'm very interested in this discussion. I would make a longer post but I don't have a lot of time right now and @sulcata's post is excellent. We have that tiering policy for a reason, namely Ubers being a complex and important part of the way we do tiering. Some of the arguments in this thread have been understandable if you think of Ubers as just another tier, but none have taken the tiering policy into consideration.

    That being said, I'm not entirely against a separate ladder even if I share many of sulcata's concerns about such a separate ladder.. For now, however, I think people should focus on reworking their arguments with sulcata's post and the tiering policy taken into account.
     
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  27. cries in vain

    cries in vain not a prayer unsung

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    yeah the regular ladder w/ a testban actually sounds much more appealing and as for reshaping arguments ok les get 2 it
    pdon paired w/ gar is rly what makes this tier unplayable if u thas the argument u'r looking for. it can shrivel potential checks and lots of times outright take them out of the equation for pdon to extirpate the rest of the team
    another annoying issue is the fact that pdon can run a multitude of offensive sets (twave sd/jolly sd/dual dance/special) to dismantle and neuter the usual checks which further exacerbates the problem i mean sure u can argue that u can run 3-4 checks and gar can't take them all out but if u have to run 4 mons as a counterplay to 1 fucking mon it's ridic and furthermore finding synergy b/w those 3-4 mons is also necessary which fucks up the tier terribly as u need to
    a.run multiple pdon checks
    b. make their roles in general not overlap
    c. still find synergy b/w them so as to not lose to the many other threats in the tier
    which def adds to the 'unplayability' factor

    although @sulcata i'm genuinely curious as to why stag or geoxern were tested if 'unplayability' is the sole reason a mon can be banned from ubers b/c u could prepare for gar in the builder adequately and geoxern had hard counters in aegis(ok subgeo can potentially beat it by winning multiple 50-50s), clefable and multitudinous checks
    when smth makes the playerbase incredibly distraught/centralizes the meta to a point that every decent tour player expresses his/her grievances about the staleness of the meta and every build is so iterative a suspect couldn't hurt right? i mean almost 100% usage isn't a joke
     
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  28. Funbot28

    Funbot28 Active Member

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    The aspect of "playability" can be very subjective and can differ from person to person in my eyes. Many players do believe that ORAS Ubers is an unplayable tier due to the prevalence and ubiquity of Primal Groudon and Mega Salamence (to a lesser extent). The issue is that there power level caps all other Ubers (which is something we never really seen in past Uber generations with a couple of mons being in the 670-680 BST range). This in turn creates a stagnant metagame in my eyes due to the strain it holds from teambuilding, restricting a "real" competitive metagame due to half of every team needing to be reserved for either checking or carrying these mons. I am not saying that Ubers has not been centralized in the past (Ex: Gen 5 Kyogre, Gen 4 Gira-O and Dialga, etc..) but this iteration brought this centralization to a whole new level, leaving these policies to be a bit redundant in my eyes. A non diverse meta to me is not one I would enjoy playing (ie Unplayable) in my opinion due to the lack of creativity I am forced to retain. These aspects devalues the essence of compressive play due to their being less options and diversity as a whole. Hasn't this been addressed with the GeoXern suspect back in XY?
     
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2016
  29. sulcata

    sulcata stéphane curry best waifu Forum Moderator Server Administrator Forum Moderator Server Administrator

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    They didn't ultimately end up banned. For all intents and purposes this is a discussion just like those.

    The reason for banning Primal Groudon isn't "it almost has 100% usage", it's "it makes the ORAS Ubers meta unplayable and thus everyone happens to use it". Usage stats are not a reason, especially when we've never banned for centralization or balance. I mean, 100% usage is a good indicator that an argument should and could be made, but it is not part of the argument itself.

    I believe, at the time, the arguments for banning shadow tag and GeoXern were that the GeoXern+Mega Gengar+EKiller combination was nigh impossible to beat and Gothitelle was causing many players to also get instant wins. That's very different from centralization. Proving playability hinged on whether or not it was possible to win against these teams while maintaining some semblance of a metagame.

    I'm not saying Primal Groudon should or shouldn't be banned. I'm saying let's follow the tiering policy we spent months on so we don't make this literally just OU 2 plus a couple broken pokes later down the line. Whatever the result, we should achieve it through the rules we set out, not just how we happen to feel at the time.

    The tiering policy also seems to make a clear distinction between centralization and playability as distinct invalid and valid reasons respectively.

    It's not as though Primal Groudon making the tier unplayable is a hard argument to make from what I've seen. "It has a small handful of checks and you need to carry multiple on every team just to have a chance of beating it", I've seen some people argue something similar to that; it's a very good start. I'd roll with that over all the other clutter.
     
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2016
  30. cries in vain

    cries in vain not a prayer unsung

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    fair makes sense
    i agree w/ most of the points u made


    and now we have pdon too and unlike ekiller and geoxern there aren't even any hard checks to pdon let alone counters b/c of it's amazing stat distribution and it's sheer firepower and makes the meta nigh unplayable, incredibly matchup based and too iterative for its own gud
     
  31. sulcata

    sulcata stéphane curry best waifu Forum Moderator Server Administrator Forum Moderator Server Administrator

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    They aren't ultimately banned though. Showing Primal Groudon is more dominating than them (which hasn't honestly been done to a huge degree but w/e) doesn't necessarily prove it's broken, just that it is suspect worthy.
     
  32. Konzern

    Konzern Banned

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    even sulcuta, a defender against a ban, just admitted that a suspect test is need. i don't understand why we can't just have one, and then move with discussion from there. we can't discuss how unhealthy pdon and mence are are without seeing if the tier improves or not without there presence. can we please get a suspect ladder or test going???
     
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2016
  33. sulcata

    sulcata stéphane curry best waifu Forum Moderator Server Administrator Forum Moderator Server Administrator

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    when the fuck did i say i was anti ban (about groudon and mence since they're the only non-theorymon), i just said pro ban had some of the most atrocious reasoning i've seen in suspect posts ever. if we're going to ban something it should be for the right reasons. please read my post.

    like really, let's just not read at all

    dam it feels good to be edgy xdd
     
  34. Konzern

    Konzern Banned

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    I meant that u defend the idea of not banning them... along with this I don't see how this is some bad reasoning for a suspect test?? if you have played ubers at a high level you would realize how unhealthy pdon is to this tier in terms of playability and creativity.
     
  35. sulcata

    sulcata stéphane curry best waifu Forum Moderator Server Administrator Forum Moderator Server Administrator

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    When
    did
    I
    say
    that
     
  36. Konzern

    Konzern Banned

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    I'm sorry I don't know what you refer to when u say "that". I will point out that you said that a suspect is needed
     
  37. sulcata

    sulcata stéphane curry best waifu Forum Moderator Server Administrator Forum Moderator Server Administrator

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    when did i say that they shouldn't be banned/suspected????????????????
     
  38. Konzern

    Konzern Banned

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    you never explicatly said you are against a ban. but the only way you are pro ban is if the tier is unplayable. the tier is playable as shown by the player base but that doesn't negate that fact that it is broken, does not allow creativity, and over centralising. if geoxern was able to get a suspect for a quarter of what pdon and to a lesser extent mence are doing to this tier, then idk why we can't get a suspect going. I also do not understand the need to preserve the tiering rules that promote an unhealthy metagame but that is for a whole other discussion.
     
  39. sulcata

    sulcata stéphane curry best waifu Forum Moderator Server Administrator Forum Moderator Server Administrator

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    because we designed these rules so that Ubers doesn't become OU v.2

    If we're going to just forgo tiering policy and all established reasoning, then let's just ban Scald because it's annoying :]
    Also EKiller makes sweeping really uncreative and I think it gets used way too much in Ubers, we should just ban it because of that.

    You can't just forgo policy and rules. This is my point. There's a lot of good reasons we adopted these policies that I won't rehash here; you can read up on them if you'd like. If you want to suspect it then do it right. Stop making ridiculous arguments and actually think. It's really not that hard to make an argument on how Primal Groudon makes the tier unplayable. From what it sounds like Mega Mence doesn't fit this criteria in the slightest but people dislike it and want to change tiering policy to ban it anyway.

    Seriously, there's no point to a policy if we're just going to change our criteria every time we want to ban something.
     
  40. Idiotz.

    Idiotz. Membar

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    no idea why anybody would think stall will be dominant with pdon and mence gone.
    mega gengar will still exist and pdon is pretty much the only thing on stall that can "handle" the most common mega gengar set atm (wisp hex fblast protect)
    not like you can switch after the first time anyway though :p
     
    Arii Stella' and Konzern like this.
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