Metagrossite Re-Suspect Discussion [Unbanned]

Discussion in 'Gen 6 Discussion' started by Zamrock, Dec 28, 2015.

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  1. Zamrock

    Zamrock - OUTL

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    After some recent discusson on the state of the current metagame, the newly formed ORAS OU council has elected to re-test Metagrossite. Discuss the possibility of Metagrossite remaining banned OR unbanned from the ORAS OU tier. Use this thread to discuss Mega Metagross's effect on the metagame. Talk about the different sets it can use, good partners and potential checks/counters. State your opinion on whether you think Mega Metagross should stay banned or if it should come back to the ORAS OU tier but make sure your posts are backed up by experience and knowledge. Anyone who makes post based on theorymon risks being infracted.

    Important notes:
    • Stay on topic.
    • Post intelligently.
    • Make meaningful posts. If your post doesn't contain any content, it is prone to being deleted. For example, posts that agree/don't agree with a certain point without any justification or explanation.
     
    Last edited: Dec 28, 2015
  2. Finchinator

    Finchinator IT’S FINK DUMBASS

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    For the record, @Zamrock and @ZoroDark will be joining @MetalGross and myself on the OU Council. While @MetalGross and myself are still currently the only OUTLs, this could change in the near future. Cheers!
     
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  3. Edna

    Edna Chasing the Dragon Forum Moderator Forum Moderator

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    Are we going to reset ladder/test it in ladder so we have more opinion on it?
     
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  4. Oh So Penspin

    Oh So Penspin Hail RNGesus, our Lord and Saviour!

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    This please. It's kinda hard to give a non-theory based opinion if we can't use it in OU.
     
  5. Finchinator

    Finchinator IT’S FINK DUMBASS

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    The ladder will be reset and Mega Metagross will be allowed on the new ladder for the time being. @Draciel
     
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  6. snaga

    snaga .

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    Are we treating this like a reqs ladder or no
     
  7. Joyverse

    Joyverse Back for a blast!

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    I do have some points to talk about Mega Metagross. Lemme confirm with Draciel that if Metagrossite has been unbanned and reset.

    Eh, so I took like a way or so to have fun with MMeta and found out that unfortunately MegaMeta can't switch into anything without taking a risk. Plus given the coverage moves it gets countered by specific mons. Like uh..
    No Ice Punch-TankChomp
    No Grass Knot-Slowbro
    No Hammer Arm-Skarm, also Air Balloon revenge kills without worrying about EQ. Umbreon counters as well. And so does Jirachi/Mew to an extent.
    No EQ- Skarmory again, Jirachi and yet again Bulky wisp New.
    The list can go on IMO but I am not here to give lists. It just comes to show how the multitude of bulky waters, steels or overall really bulky checks like Rocky Lando or TankChomp can actually pressurize MMeta more than it pressurizes them.
    Carl pointed out pokémon that pair up well with MMeta. This actually shows how dependent MMeta is to its teammates to land a sweep then say the other sweeper in the team. I am pretty dumb tbh to lean on either side for the moment. So lemme see what happens.
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2016
  8. Fuzzysqurl

    Fuzzysqurl baa baa mareep I do what I want Server Owner Developer I do what I want Server Owner Developer

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    The ladder has been reset and Metagrossite is usable again. Enjoy your "tier" :)
     
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  9. Draciel

    Draciel ALLEZ! ALLEZ! ALLEZ!

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    Metagrossite has been unbanned and the OU ladder has been reset. Things may now proceed as planned!
     
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  10. La.Melle2402

    La.Melle2402 I'm the bone of my sword

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    What u guys think about a Mawilite re-suspect. I mean Mawile got banned from OU in XY times where it was very strong. But we dont know how good it is in ORAS. In Ubers Meha Mawile isnt used anymore bc the Pdon dominance.
    So what would you say about a re-suspect?
     
  11. snaga

    snaga .

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    this thread is strictly for mega metagross and its impact on the current ou meta, post in the "November/December potential suspect thread" regarding mawile
    :D
     
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  12. Zamrock

    Zamrock - OUTL

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    Please refrain from talking about anything other than the Metagrossite suspect, the main ORAS OU discussion thread is the place to post if it is about anything else in terms of new suspects, general metagame talk, etc. Thank you.
     
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  13. Lameflame

    Lameflame Active Member

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    I guess I'm a little bit uncertain as to what should be argued here, and whom the burden falls on to argue those things. The previous suspect discussion ended with the conclusion that Metagrossite should be banned because "its combination of speed, power and the ability to break through some of its alleged counters was too much to handle for the metagame." At the same time its been stated that Metagrossite was banned based on a tiering philosophy that believes in reducing offensive threats in the metagame to lessen constraints on teambuilding, that the tier was worse-off with it and furthermore, that Mega Metagross isn't broken in the tier. In other words, I'm not really sure if the burden is on pro-ban or pro-OU here, or whether it needs to be demonstrated that Mega Metagross is or isn't broken, or whether we just simply have to demonstrate that having it doesn't unnecessarily constrain teambuilding and worsen the tier, etc. Not trying to be difficult, just personally trying to make sense of a few things.

    If this re-suspect thread is more of a general discussion about Mega Metagross for the sake of gathering consensus then that's fine, although I feel that I shouldn't have to demonstrate Mega Metagross being not-broken if that isn't a relevant factor in whether or not it stays or goes. I also don't think it's appropriate at this point to simply list off checks and counters, so I'll just talk about the metagame briefly and leave it there until more posts come in.

    As far as I'm concerned, the metagame now isn't that much different from the one in which Metagross was suspected and banned previously; however, in all the relevant ways that it is different, almost none of these changes and trends are favorable towards Metagross. Smogon has been steadily dropping it in their viability rankings over time (I know, I just said a bad word), but there are reasons for that and as someone who was anti-ban in the last suspect on PO, this is only further evidence that the metagame isn't overly constrained or threatened by Metagross.
    • Gothitelle is no longer available to trap and kill many common checks and counters to Metagross, namely bulky waters or other walls that are KO'd or crippled by TrickScarf.
    • The OU metagame is far more offensively-oriented now than it was then, when most teams featured bulky balance cores and thus promoted an environment far more favorable towards Metagross.
    • Building on the above bullet, we now see a rise in: CM Raikou, Bulky WoW Talon sets, more offensive Garchomp sets, Mega Scizor being even better than it was before (and it was always good), Weavile and Scarf Jirachi seeing high usage both in ladder and tournament play and even the rise of M-Sableye (albeit on the decline now). None of these are "good" things for Metagross.
    • The only metagame trend that I can think of that's actually favorable for Metagross is one that should be a compelling reason to bring it back to PO: the rise in fairy spam & fairy usage. Unless you're telling me you don't want another check to M-Garde, CB Azu and Clef, in which case I'm not sure what to say...
    • Bulky Rocky Helmet users are more common in this state of OU than before. TankChomp was still around when it was banned, but I find that Skarm, Landorus-T and Ferrothorn run rocky helmet at much higher frequency than they did previously, making the guessing game for the Metagross user that much more difficult.
    • The number of sets that Metagross commonly runs (from my experience on PS) has been seriously limited to a 4-attack wallbreaker. There is a very low chance of seeing a Rock Polish Metagross nowadays, and if anyone is prepared to tell me they've played against an HP Fire Metagross, Hone Claws Metagross or bulky sets or w/e, I think you're really grasping at straws here. The only thing that Metagross does now that it didn't commonly do back then is run pursuit for Lati@s. Bullet Punch is also another option but 1) you lose out on needed coverage and 2) against offensive teams, you're really only running that for Weavile or I guess to hit Diancie pre-Mega.

    If you're just going to take a hard-line stance and say that Metagross is broken because it can switch-up moves, you can't scout its set without running more than 1 check/counter and that Hyper Offense has to trade one for one with it (lol), then I'm not going to engage that kind of argument. It's very narrow-minded and limiting to any tiering philosophy to think that way and essentially you can copy+paste that logic to almost any mixed attacker in the tier. All the excessive and unnecessary hyperbole about Metagross "over-centralizing the tier" or running gimmick sets to bypass its checks and counters hasn't actually played out in the months between its absence on PO and its drop in viability on PS. I could have gone into more detail but to be honest, everything that needed to be said about Metagross I felt was already shared in the last (two) suspects, so imo, the burden is now on people who feel it is actually broken to re-explain why that is, otherwise Metagross isn't broken and would be a really positive addition to the current OU metagame.
     
  14. Purpleseamonkey

    Purpleseamonkey PO Alt: y0

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    Because this is a test unban, it would follow reason that it needs to be proven that MMetagross can be a balanced part of the tier. The original ban sets a precedent even if you don't agree with it. That being said, where the burden of proof lies is not important at this stage of the new tier and I would really like if everyone could refrain from any Showdown references. Because we can now use it in ou ourselves we should be getting experience on its unique impact on the po sim. This is very important because after using it over the past couple of days Metagross seemed to completely run over the tier with its coverage, ability to live hits, and speed.
    I'm at number one with this team

    Azumarill/Landorus-T/Serperior/Gengar/Metagross/Kyurem-B
    Azumarill (F) @ Choice Band
    Trait: Huge Power
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def
    Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
    - Waterfall
    - Aqua Jet
    - Superpower
    - Play Rough

    Landorus-T (M) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Intimidate
    EVs: 252 HP / 208 Def / 48 Spd
    Impish Nature (+Def, -SAtk)
    - Stealth Rock
    - U-turn
    - Earthquake
    - Knock Off

    Serperior (F) @ Miracle Seed
    Trait: Contrary
    EVs: 252 SAtk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
    IVs: 30 Atk / 30 SAtk / 30 Spd
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Leaf Storm
    - Hidden Power [Fire]
    - Dragon Pulse
    - Giga Drain

    Gengar (F) @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 4 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
    IVs: 0 Atk
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Shadow Ball
    - Sludge Bomb
    - Focus Blast
    - Trick

    Metagross @ Metagrossite
    Trait: Clear Body
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
    Naive Nature (+Spd, -SDef)
    - Meteor Mash
    - Zen Headbutt
    - Grass Knot
    - Hammer Arm

    Kyurem-B @ Life Orb
    Trait: Teravolt
    EVs: 16 Atk / 252 SAtk / 240 Spd
    IVs: 30 Atk / 30 SAtk / 30 Spd
    Rash Nature (+SAtk, -SDef)
    - Ice Beam
    - Earth Power
    - Fusion Bolt
    - Hidden Power [Fire]

    Meta is the glue of this team and can 2hko most of the tier with one move set. Its bulk allows it to destroy faster paced teams and its wall breaking capabilities with Meteor Mash and coverage allow it to sweep defensive teams relying on the physical walls it can break down. Some problems with this team are combinations of scizor+heatran because of my lack of hp ground on serp. Both can be worn down with rocks and momentum, but neither likes to switch into meta although bulky scizor can. And that is precisely the problem metagross creates in the tier. It can check so many threats 1v1 no matter the coverage it chooses to run. It can cover everything within its 6 common moves (In order: MM, ZH, grass knot, hammer arm, eq, hp fire). The team above would normally struggle greatly against hyper offense but meta beats most everything above 1oo speed, living their attacks and often 1hkoing in return. Threatening a sweep with a 9% chance to boost its attack every time it uses its stab should not be underestimated against slow pace teams. The ability to 2hko supposed stops such as slowbro or hippo puts Meta over the top as well as being the most splashable mon in the tier since Aegi(with similar bulk).

    I think the best set is the one I'm using right now bc it can 2hko ferro, slowbro, hippo, heatran, 1v1 skarm, and swampert
    Alternatively, a more creative/antimeta set would be to swap hammer arm for hp fire and to pair it with dugtrio. This allows you to destroy scizor, ferro, and skarmory much better while still covering everything but heatran. Eq can also be swapped for hammer arm and can 1hko heatran, and is useful for excadrill, magnezone, and opposing metagross

    The tier is still sort of young, and admittedly Metagross is not so obviously unfair without goth support. But unless there is dramatic change in the way people are teambuilding, it still seems too powerful for ou
     
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2015
  15. Lameflame

    Lameflame Active Member

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    Is the precedent that the combination of Metagross' bulk, power and speed make it too much to handle for OU, or that the tier at one point was lackluster with Metagross in it and now no longer is? If it's the former then yes, anti-ban must once again prove that Metagross is balanced and/or healthy for OU. If it's the latter, that suggests some sort of consensus that Metagross isn't actually broken, so the discussion should proceed in a different direction about current metagame trends (e.g. fairy spam, more HO, different sets being run) that have more to do with the OU tier at large than about Metagross itself. Whether I agree with either doesn't really matter in this case.

    Congrats on the ladder peak, but I see this as more of a statement about you as a player and the effectiveness of the team you built + the ladder rather than Metagross being too good. It's definitely useful to post from a position of experience and understanding of the re-suspect in question, but whether you make top 1, 10 or 50 shouldn't really affect the outcome of the discussion imo. Also, I understand your request to segregate PO and PS tiering and I can respect that point of view. I just personally don't feel that people who play on PS are substantially different than the playerbase here (at the highest levels for both), so ignoring months of raw data and statistics is tough for me to do in good conscience.

    I think this is really the core point that we don't agree on. A lot of pokemon can 2hko most of the tier if they're allowed to run 6 moves at a time. They can't. You also say that metagross is able to do this regardless of what coverage it chooses and I think that's just simply not the case. One of the only points I did concede to pro-ban in the last suspect was that it had a seemingly equal chance of running all the different coverage moves and some different sets, so it was more difficult to scout. It seems like you're not really taking into account what the metagame looks like now as compared to then, and just looking at what Metagross can do 1v1 in a vaccuum. Yes, it's a really good Mega with great typing and usable bulk to maybe take 1-2 more STAB attacks that other pokemon could not -- in a 1v1 environment, maybe Metagross is too much. Fortunately, this is not how pokemon is played. Making intelligent double switches and scouting for coverage are simply part of the game and can be applied to nearly any discussion, not just Metagross.

    I think you also said a while ago that you wanted to suspect Tornadus-T for the number of sets it can run (LO sweeper, utility/pivot, stallbreaker) and its diverse coverage. You're making the same points again about Metagross, that it can be a Rock Polish Sweeper, wallbreaker, "hole-puncher", etc. with all these plethora of coverage moves. Again, I think it just comes down to the fact that I believe that's a natural part of the competitive environment and you feel it's too much to reasonably prepare for in the course of a battle. Forgive me if I'm putting words in your mouth but that's just what it sounds like to me, correct me if I'm misconstruing anything.

    I've already touched on this but I don't think you're looking at the big picture if you're theorymonning potential anti-meta sets that Metagross could run to beat certain checks/counters in certain niche situations. Anti-ban will never come out ahead in a discussion where we have to defend against sets like this. There's an opportunity cost to running HP Fire, namely the 1 point drop in speed which makes you lose out on your base 110 speed tier, the fact that it's not going to be running a ZH/GK/IP, the fact that it's probably going to have to detract from one of its defenses which makes its bulk worse in tanking Brave Birds and Draco Meteors, etc., and most especially, that it only has a 16% chance to actually 2hko 248HP/44Atk/200SpDef Scizor anyway -- the one real reason you'd want this move anyway.

    I also think we have a different idea of what it means to be "splashable" or "spammable". By definition you can't really splash a Mega onto your team -- once you add a mega, your team usually is dedicated to sustaining, or is sustained by that mega. Splashable pokemon are pokemon that can fit on any team archetype, support many different types of playstyles or sweepers, have general utility in and of themselves, etc. Tornadus-T and Clefable are splashable pokemon. Also, Meteor Mash is a 90% accurate move, I wouldn't call it spammable just as I wouldn't say a Medicham HJK is spammable. Spammable moves are moves that you can click with very little opportunity cost to you. Aegislash clicking Shadow Ball is spammable, so is M-Garde clicking Hyper Voice. Metagross can't freely click Meteor Mash with so many bulky pokemon running around with RH, the chance to miss and kill your momentum/get T-waved by Clef, or click it against an incoming Slowbro/suicune and be forced to switch out. In practice this is far more difficult than it sounds in theory.
     
  16. Oh So Penspin

    Oh So Penspin Hail RNGesus, our Lord and Saviour!

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    I'll be a bit more brief than the previous posters, but I also think that MegaGross is NOT broken in OU for the following reasons:
    • Its checks and counters are very common in the current metagame. Bulky grounds, bulky waters and bulky steels are all prominent parts of the meta and do a good job at checking/countering most MegaGross sets, unless it decides to run some obscure coverage move. MegaGross has quite some checks, so it doesn't restrict teambuilding too much either. It's just another threat you have to prepare for, but most well-built teams naturally carry checks for MegaGross anyway.
    • MegaGross has difficulties switching in. Despite its good defensive typing and great stats, nearly everything it wants to switch in to has something that can cripple it. Fairies run coverage (MAlt) or status moves (WoW on MegaVoir, TWave on Clef), Dragons can hurt it badly (except for Lati@s I guess) and Steels pretty much check or counter it.
    • It lacks the "overhyped" attacking power. Yes, it has a good movepool with a good ability, but without a boosting move other than Hone Claws, it can't boost to sweep. Furthermore its STABs lack good coverage, making them risky moves to spam. It can be extremely efficient at what it does, but you have to predict quite a lot to hit everything hard. Like @Lameflame mentioned, it doesn't have the same spammable STAB as for example Aegislash had.
    • It takes up your Mega slot. There is quite some opportunity cost in using MegaGross (unlike Aegi and Lando-I for example), and it does its job only so well. Others Megas are more versatile (CharX, Scizor), are better wallbreakers (Gardevoir) or are better cleaners (Lopunny, Manetric). It's certainly not the best Mega in the current metagame, even though it's pretty good.
     
  17. Edna

    Edna Chasing the Dragon Forum Moderator Forum Moderator

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    I've been messing around with bad teams ( well more gimmick ) and even around unusual stuff in the ORAS OU metagame and I clearly realized how Mega Metagross needs to be thought about when building.

    It is true that it has some check or counters ( really just try sub half of them become useless ) but I really can't admit I have to think about it everytime because in my opinion, it's already hard ton counter Mega Heracross and Mega Gardevoir, so adding again Megagross seems like making the tier even more restricted in the choice of the team.

    As I stated in the past, the biggest issue of megagross is the core it generates who are hard to stop:

    Megagross+ Leaf Storm Hp ground/rock Serperior can take most water check/counter

    Megagross+ Magnezone can get rid of Skarmory and Ferrothorn and prepare an Agility sweep

    Megagross with Pursuit+ Scarf Keldeo, kill latwins et just spam scald till you win

    Megagross+ Clefable, you can set up with clefable while opponent is trying to use his Dark mon against Megagross and then starts another issue.

    And there are way more of them.

    I don't care of what happens on Smogon it's PO. If Smogon wants to reduce the viability of a mon it shouldn't be used as argument to unban one here.

    From what i've tested, I realized Megagross is just a "I kill a mon everytime I get in vs bad teams" and I dislike that feature. Fairy spam has been delt all fine by Mega Scizor ( who also takes Kyu-B which seems like a miracle ) and nobody even complained of this. For me Megagross remains way too powerful for the tier /despite the ok checks with no recovery everyone is stating/ as it generates way too many cores broken as hell and forces opponent to splash everytime 2 of them if he doesn't want his team to have bad matchup. I personally say do not unban.
     
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  18. Lameflame

    Lameflame Active Member

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    I'm not sure why Mega Metagross' performance against teams that are "bad", "gimmick" or "unusual" should disqualify it from being balanced in the OU tier.

    While there's always going to be some utility and surprise factor in running Substitute on wallbreakers whose sets do not commonly include it, I think it is actually worse for Metagross to run it compared to other wallbreakers, like Kyurem-B or Hoopa-U, who can get by with only three coverage moves. Taking 25% per sub limits its bulk and as I've said before, Metagross can't freely spam Meteor Mash (or any attack really) without taking another ~25% for every Rocky Helmet check the opponent has. Combine that with passive hazard damage and now it's totally unable to do its job as a pursuit trapper, has limited coverage to wallbreak and is forced to switch far more often, losing you momentum.

    Also it sounds like a contradiction to say that Metagross restricts teambuilding after admitting you rarely have to take it into account. I'm not sure what Mega Heracross or Gardevoir's assortment of checks/counters have to do with Metagross. If anything that's just a reiteration of the same precedent that had it banned in the first place -- that just by getting rid of offensive threats we make teambuilding easier -- but the fact that Metagross is being re-tested suggests that the same logic isn't going to apply this time around. If it is, I think this whole exercise is really pointless.

    So because Metagross has synergy with other sweepers and wallbreakers, that makes it unbalanced? I don't understand. You cite Magnezone as having synergy with Metagross and being able to remove Skarmory and Ferrothorn, but Magnezone is also paired with Pinsir, Diancie, Altaria, Dragonite, etc. to remove mostly the same exact pokemon. Unless you also feel that those cores are unhealthy, I'm not sure why this is any different. Sure, there are times when you can make the case that the synergy between two pokemon is enough that, while both pokemon individually aren't broken, their combination might be (DeoSharp, Sableye-Gothitelle, Scolipede-Espeon, etc.), but I don't think that's the case here.

    I'm not sure if this is a reference to my post or just a general statement, but I never meant to imply that Smogon's tiering policy or community preferences should impact what occurs at PO. I just stated that Metagross has been around for some time now on PS, and I'm not one to dismiss potentially useful statistics or observations just because it didn't happen on PO - the playerbase is different, but the game isn't. I think the goal of both simulators should be to create the best tier possible relative to the wishes of their community; if they happen to align then that's great, and if they don't, that's fine too. I think we agree on this.

    Again I'm not sure why we're only talking about Metagross' performance against "bad" teams. Fairy spam is just one example I gave, but just as a general response, when Mega Gardevoir, Altaria, Diancie and Clefable/Specs Sylveon all run fire coverage specifically for Ferrothorn + Scizor, it's hard to say that it alone handles it, nor should that be a relevant factor in whether Metagross is balanced or deserving to come back imo. Many of Metagross' checks such as Scizor/Hippowdon/Slowbro/Zapdos/bulky Manaphy + Mew + Celebi + Gyarados/Skarmory/Rotom-W/Suicune do have reliable or semi-reliable recovery, and the ones that don't, mostly rocky helmet users Ferro/Chomp/Lando-T, essentially weaken it to be offensively revenged with ease after 1-2 rounds of chip damage. I don't think most of those pokemon I named are super niche in OU or are hard to fit into a core with one another.
     
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2016
  19. Edna

    Edna Chasing the Dragon Forum Moderator Forum Moderator

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    Firstly, I don't think I've ever seen so many cores with Diancie or Pinsir or Altaria, mainly because they don't exist. My point with Megagross is the fact it forms way too much imo. The fact I used less prepared teams was to see if it was important to have checks to megagross or if it was naturally manageable. And by bad I still mean I had some Ferrothorn or Talonflame right in the back.

    Zapdos/Hippo/Slowbro/Chomp/Lando-T all lose to Grass Knot/Ice Punch, which seems one of the best set for me. Bulky Manaphy can't repeatedly switch in to Zen Headbutt and Rotom-W still takes like 48% of ZH, which also means you lose your check to Talonflame SD. Which is my main issue about the core generated by Megagross, it can turn anything it wants into a win con and I find that too much for the OU.

    Talking generally about Megagross performance against 'bad' teams was too point out that like Zard X, it's a pokemon that requires no skill against less prepared teams. Readding it for me seems too much.
     
  20. AnuncioBot

    AnuncioBot Tome muito líquido!

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    The first thing to say is that Mega Metagross not become the center of the metagame since it was released on the ladder.

    The current metagame really punishes attackers who make contact, Rocky Helmet, Iron Barbs, Rough Skin, and Rocky Helmet again.

    Steel and Psychic are not the best STAB offensively, and in the case of Metagross they still have 10% chance of not hitting the target.
    Meteor Mash atk bonus and Zen Headbutt flinch are almost needs so he can destroy something.

    Mega Metagross has many moves options, Meteor Mash, Zen Headbutt, Ice Punch, Grass Knot, Earthquake, Pursuit, Bullet Punch, Hammer Arm. And the most unusual Hidden Power Fire, Power-Up Punch, Thunder Punch, Rock Slide, Agility / Rock Polish and Hone Claws.
    Agility / Rock Polish and Hone Claws undertake all the coverage of Metagross, which is not yet perfect (unlike Mega Gardevoir .imo).
    But 4MSS is obviously a major problem.

    With that, I agree with the previously said Mega Metagross can not just spam your moves (unlike Mega Medicham and Mega Gardevoir).

    Latios Life Orb Hidden Power Fire 2 KO Mega Metagross before mega evolving, so it's not an absolutely safe switch.
    Mega Metagross can not defeat Jirachi and Victini in 2KO except Earthquake.
    Zen Headbutt has only 25.8% chance to 2HKO Rotom-W after Stealth Rock.
    Mega Metagross need Stealth Rock and Thunder Punch to defeat Mandibuzz.
    Need Thunder Punch to defeat Slowking.
    Need Grass Knot to defeat Slowbro and Hippowdon.
    Skarmory, Alomomola and Tangrowth switch safely.
    Mega Sableye survives 2 Meteor Mash.
    Only 16% chance to 2HKO Sp. Def Mega Scior with Hidden Power Fire.
    It is very vulnerable to status, can not enter safely in Clefable because Thunder Wave is common now.

    Mega Metagross do not have any recovery.

    In conclusion, although possessed great power, no more than Mega Gardevoir or Mega Medicham, Mega Metagross has several restrictions and difficulties in the current metagame ORAS OU. Other Pokémon are more stronger than he and I do not consider it broken.

    Unban Metagrossite
     
  21. Aurist

    Aurist I do not jump for joy. I frolic in doubt.

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    I'm fed up to death of reading this crap like Mega Metagross has to 2hko everything or it is totally screwed. Mega Metagross has ridiculous uber level stats in OU, it doesn't have to 2hko everything to even get by even though it does to a large majority of things anyway. It can easily outlast any check, defensive or offensive, thanks to its insane bulk and decent typing, and it massively lacks options to revenge it (consider that not even Adamant LO Bisharp can revenge it without some prior damage), as well as outspeeding almost all of its supposed offensive checks and most of them being unable to switch in anyway. Coverage/4MSS barely matters when the main ease of using Mega Metagross is the way it can last through an entire game in a way that 90% of its "checks" absolutely cannot, because in Gen 6 they can't just sit around and wait and do nothing just in case Megagross comes in soon. Not every situation vs Mega Metagross is beating stuff from 100, I'd argue that's in the significant minority. The pressure Mega Metagross inflicts on both battling and teambuilding is ridiculous and makes the tier horrible to play both from a fun and competitive standpoint. This is in addition to the comparatively minor but still pernicious aspect of Megagross which is how loaded it is with random % chances to turn the game with flinch/atk boost - that is, if you're even behind at all with a team with Megagross which is extraordinarily hard to do. Mega Metagross may "have checks" in the most literal sense of the words but that does not make it even close to a healthy mon in the tier. It needs to go ASAP.
     
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  22. Finchinator

    Finchinator IT’S FINK DUMBASS

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    Hello, I've been following discussion and I currently am in the process of working on my own opinion and response to things, so don't think this is being neglected (personal matters and some other events have gotten in the way of my responding at as quick a pace as I wish I could, though). Please continue discussion as I'd like to wrap this up in a week (or less)!
     
  23. Zamrock

    Zamrock - OUTL

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    Ok, I'll post my thoughts as well.

    In the past people believed that Mega Metagross was very overpowered, can 2hko "everything," and it's movepool was so good that it was almost impossible to check it let alone beat it. I believe the meta at this stage can handle Mega Metagross really well with the majority of checks being slowbro or slowking, skarmory, excadrill in sand (any bulky ground really), mega scizor, etc. The only sets I feel are viable for it are 4 atk offensive (meteor mash, zen headbutt, h-arm/EQ, filler), and rock polish/agility sweeper. Even though Metagross has a great movepool, because of the limitation of having on 4 moves, it cannot beat everything that checks it, which is obvious and you can take advantage of that. It's a great fairy check and can come in vs the likes of Lati Twins, Gardevior, and non-twave clefable, it's a good pursuit trapper to the latis so things like Keldeo/Rotom-wash can have a field day. My personal favorite set currently that looks kind of noobish is the Mash/Zen/EQ/Ice Punch lure metagross. Pair this with magnezone to eliminate ferros and skarm and metagross basically cleans through balance teams. Lots of people are relying on RH Garchomp and Lando-T to check it and with Ice Punch it just blows them back which is quite handy. Earthquake is good because it "lures" in heatrans from players thinking that it's Hammer Arm and think they can take advantage of your speed drop. I think one disadvantage metagross has is it's lack of recovery to maintain it's position as a threat. Eight times out of ten, it usually comes in to tank a hit before mega evolving i.e LO Draco from Lati or vs something like Hyper Voice from Gardevior and gets widdle down very easily, and with things like RH Chomp and Lando-t, it just adds up more damage to it so killing mega metagross really isn't hard to accomplish dispite having great coverage.

    I'm not gonna respond to other comments because I know finch will do a better job at it than I will, but I do feel like Mega Metagross should come back to the metagame as I do not believe it's as big of a threat as a lot of people want to believe it is.
     
  24. Funbot28

    Funbot28 Active Member

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    Wanted to answer earlier, but I never had the time... Basically @Finchinator and @Zamrock took everything out of my mouth. We all know how fast and powerful Mega Metagross is, and on paper it may seem broken as many did call it to be at the beginning of ORAS. But playing quite a few games with it lead me to believe that the current meta really does not favor it. It's weakness to Dark/Fire/Ground and Ghost really hurt it as it is weak to many of the meta's most biggest threats in Weavile, Landorus-T, Mega Sableye and Mega Charizard-X. The metagame also holds a strong bias towards hyper offense atm, and Mega Metagross's good 110 base speed hold it back from outspeeding things like Tornadus-T and Mega Manectric, which can really weaken Mega Metagross quickly. It was also stated previously, but many of it's checks and counters are found on various teams, being added without thought such as Slowbro, Starmie, Skarmory, and Ferrothorn. It is really good, but not banworthy and thus should not be remain banned.
     
  25. Hannah

    Hannah Come a little closer

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    An interesting point that I would like to bring up that @Elize Lutus has brought up is that it punishes poorly built teams. Recently, I've seen games where a single Pokemon with minimal support has been able to steal away games from teams that are unprepared or leave a huge hole in their team built to not accommodate a specific threat (HP-Water Volcarona, for clarification purposes). I don't think this should be a reason keep it out of the tier. Like Elize said given the appropriate support it does have the ability to lock out a game, but these scenarios require you to build heavily into a core to go against its flaws. Alone, it will still be a heavy hitter but with something like Slowbro and Ferrothorn in the tier it can be kept at check. It will punish teams that don't incorporate a way to directly deal with it, but that does not mean there is no way to play around it.

    Another big factor I think should be taken against Mega Metagross is how valuable the opportunity cost is to run a Mega Stone its place. It is a consistently strong Pokemon, like many other Pokemon currently in OU. However, unlike most of them it doesn't immediately limit the design space of your team simply by existing.

    I would say we keep it in the tier, and that the thread should be wrapped up.
     
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  26. Finchinator

    Finchinator IT’S FINK DUMBASS

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    This suspect is over. I was going to post, but Zamrock's post sums up a majority of my thoughts and, to be quite honest, I've been fairly busy as of late, so I apologize for that.

    Nevertheless, after discussing with the council and reading over the thread, a conclusion was drawn and that conclusion is that Mega Metagross will be allowed in the ORAS OU tier. Expect more tiering threads in the near future.
     
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