[ORAS] Oras Ubers Viability Rankings V2

Discussion in 'Past Gens Discussion' started by Mysterious M, Dec 10, 2015.

  1. cries in vain

    cries in vain not a prayer unsung

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    why is lopunny ranked rofl just take it out of the rankings it's just absolute garbage

    1. it's just a worse kanga. hits less hard has less bulk and the added speed it provides isn't reason enough to run it over kanga just b/c u can hit msab and kanga has much better coverage in general
    2. hwish and magic coat aren't arguments b/c u can run a better antilead and hwish is hardly as gud as it sounds on paper
    3. why would u ever run this fucking pile of garbage over another mega
     
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  2. Serga

    Serga 2easy

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    Lopunny is bs, I'd say D or unrank it.
    It can't do anything against a lot of mons and you may end up wasting your healing wish in order to be able to switch in on your opp's mon.

    Clefable is just too passive imo, many mons can switch in it for free and force you to switch into sacred fire or precipice miss, and gengar just traps it and kills it easily. It can use heal bell and wish tho, so B-

    About dragceus and fairyceus: the latter can switch into mixed ray / latis / kyu-w while the former checks pdon better. I meant that dragceus might be outclassed by fairyceus if the team needs a lati/kyu-w switch in.
     
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  3. Mysterious M

    Mysterious M Dream /\ Bigger

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    So yeah, i could see a drop of lop to C. Regarding fairyceus, it can be changed to B-. At that point i would like to make another suggestion. Lando-T from C to B- or even B. The scarf set is solid, and as you may have noticed many teams are now building around it or even use it as a member. it has U-turn to pivot, eq stab causes cool damage and it has explosion to finish off with a huge amount of damage. I would consider it for a B.
     
  4. cries in vain

    cries in vain not a prayer unsung

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    why would u ever consider bumping fairyceus
    it's bait for pdon and ho oh the best and second best mon in the tier respectively and is a terrible defogger+gets handily trapped by mgar
    it's pros aren't even close to being enough to counterpoise it's flaws
     
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  5. Serga

    Serga 2easy

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    I've used fairyceus twice on seasonals and I realised it is not as bad as I thought. Toxic means pdon and Ho-oh can't switch in for free and I used it with earth power meaning that gengars w/o a poison move were forced to trade. Of course it's not the best arceus forme, but it is underrated imo.
     
  6. Lacus Clyne

    Lacus Clyne This might get unpleasant!

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    I agree with Serga that Arceus-Fairy has some niches but its simply not worth raising that Pokemon to B-. It should stay in C+.
    There are several Pokemon who can also take care of the Defog job. I guess the only postive thing is that it can switch into Yveltal while the other defoger can't do that.
     
  7. Mysterious M

    Mysterious M Dream /\ Bigger

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    * VIABILITY RANKINGS UPDATE* (2)

    OK, so i went forward and made some updates regarding the suggestions we all agreed on. There are gonna be some who need more analysis imo.

    Updates:
    [​IMG] to B+
    [​IMG] to A-
    [​IMG] to B+
    [​IMG] to B
    [​IMG] to B-
    [​IMG] to C-

    Glad there was some action again here. Lets get it rolling!
     
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2016
  8. Konzern

    Konzern Banned

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    i know that the explanations for my rankings are going to be lengthy so ill just post the nominations on top :)

    lopunny-mega: unranked
    diancie-mega: a
    latias: a-
    arceus-water: a+
    darkrai: s
    mewtwo y: b+
    scizor-mega: unranked
    ferrothron: b-
    gothitelle: c+
    ho-oh: a+

    explainations:

    lopunny-mega: this mon has the niche of scrappy and a good speed tier. but its weak and only pulls a ko on darkrai. inferior to mega mewtwo x in very aspect aside from threatening msab. while have a niche of threatening an a rank mon is okay i guess, it doesn't justify a mon being ranked. thats like ranking ludicolo who has a niche of only checking pogre. just doesn't make any sense to me and should thus me dropped. also it had 0 usage in upl for a reason. see no need to keep it in and the opposition is extremely weak to begin with.

    diancie-mega: mega diancie has a big advantage in this tier considering it hits most of the tier super hard. for starters it has a great speed tier in this game, outspeeding things such as ho oh, lugia, yveltal and ohkoing back. it is a really good check to unboosted darkrai, as well as being able to play a 50/50 game with sr setters. great revenge killer, great answer to mega sableye and darkrai, and just being able to check a lot gives it a really good spot in the tier.

    latias: on most teams latios is preferred and i also find myself rather rarely using latias. latias is not able to pressure opposing teams enough and can't even check double dance pdon reliably. it has a niche by being a bit more solid of a pogre check, being a only slightly safer defogger and having access to hwish but really, latios helps more overall by its huge offensive presence(gets important rolls on xern ttar hooh etc.).using hwish also means you sacrifice one which really hurts latias. maybe Latias performs better than some a- mons but it's viability shouldn't be that high simply due to latios existing and performing its role better most of the time, and thats what viability rankings are all about aren't they?

    arceus water: best support arceus from that checks 3/5 of the s rank mons (pdon mence hooh) along with this, it is a staple to most all balance and stall teams. also its arguable on the same level or better than lugia and also boasts defog (unless u run pressuregia)

    darkrai: second most restricting team building mon in the tier behind xerneas. behinds a lot of balance teams and any team lacking a real dedicated check. this is pretty self explanatory and it was in s rank for a reason

    mewtwo y: im a fan of mewtwo y and all cause of insomnia but it isn't at the same level of reg mewtwo. doesn't hit as hard and takes up mega slot. drop it one rank below reg mewtwo

    scizor-mega: someone please defend this pokemon for being ranked. no reason to dedicate a mega just to check xern and the latis. try aegi or ferro maybe. it doesn't take up a mega slot and it isn't completely useless aside from fulfilling like 2 roles.

    ferrothron: has gotten worse as the tier has progressed. not used in upl at all and really isn't the best check to pogre. latios is way more splashable.

    gothi: niche to tearing apart balance if played right but thats it. c+ serves that description

    hooh: needs team support to be effective as stated in a+ description. although hooh balance is best play style imo, hooh doesn't deserve s rank. stealth rock is too common along with needing a defogger to be successful
     
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  9. cries in vain

    cries in vain not a prayer unsung

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    whoever manages the shifting of mons in the rank latias was supposed to be moved to b+ from a- not bumped to A rofl

    agree w/ the above post minus pulling down ho oh to a+
    why would u ever do that?
    it's the second best mon in the tier who cares if it needs defog support why would u not use ho oh on a balance it's just that fucking gud
    it pressures teams exceptionally well and substantiates ur defensive backbone
    i could go on and on about how ridic gud this mon is in the meta but i figure u'll take the hint
     
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  10. Mysterious M

    Mysterious M Dream /\ Bigger

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  11. Konzern

    Konzern Banned

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    while i understand that hooh is a very good mon in this tier and also is also the basis of the best play style rn, when ranking the viability of a pokemon, we must look back to the descriptions of the s rank and a+ rank.

    "A rank Pokemon generally perform very well in the tier but have some minor flaws that prevent them from fulfilling their roles consistently. Although threatening, they usually require team support rather than a S-Rank Pokemon."

    without team support of a defog user, hooh is very much useless in games. i would say in terms of viability drai>hooh cause of how restricting the former is. i guess both could b included in s rank…
     
  12. Blitzamirin

    Blitzamirin Waluigi! Number one!

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    Those descriptions are so shittily subjective and people that use them as a basis for a Pokemon's rank don't look past it. They def should be removed as they contribute nothing except people basing their arguments off them. Viability rankings should be a threat list for new users mostly and the letter grades are all that's really needed.

    Matter of the fact is Ho-oh is one of the best Pokemon in the tier. Yes, it's 4x weak to Stealth Rock but anti-hazard support isn't exactly hard to mesh with it (Latis, Waterceus, Mega Diancie, etc.) and it also has Regen. In addition to checking a shit ton of dangerous stuff like Xerneas, Primal Groudon and even Darkrai w/ Sleep Talk, switching in on this is lol bc it hits really fucking hard with a STAB move that's virtually unresisted and a STAB move that spreads burns so easily.
     
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  13. Konzern

    Konzern Banned

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    is darkrai going to stay at a+ rank or move to s? also is waterceus moving to a+?
     
  14. Mysterious M

    Mysterious M Dream /\ Bigger

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    Regarding Waterceus, when i first started i had it at A+ but people here got upset and i had to take to A.
    Ho Oh should stay in S rank imo, blitz did state the reason correctly lol. Before making any other changes i would like to see some more discussion regarding @Konzern 's changes.

    btw thanks to @Blitzamirin for pointing out that about the descriptions, they were indeed kinda confusing.
     
  15. Serga

    Serga 2easy

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    Waterceus to A+, it's the best support arceus, checks most pdon's, can check ray/megamence w/ice beam, can defog against the best sr setter in the tier (pdon), can check hooh (burns are annoying tho), check groundceus, etc.
    The fact that is one of the best mons in balance and stall just makes it A+ rank worthy
     
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  16. cries in vain

    cries in vain not a prayer unsung

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    agree w/ serga that waterceus def deserves a+ b/c it checks a massive portion of the meta and is probably the best defogger out there nd rly splashable and i def feel like it's a lot better than smth like groundceus
    ok groundceus has much more offensive presence but getting burned rly fucks it up and special sets r honestly rly vacuous
    smth less relevant but it 'does' act as a kyogre switch in apart from pdon if u don't have anything else bar offensive sets in which case u have to watch out for thunder if u've alr revealed waterceus but yh it's def a secondary check of sorts
    this mon is def worthy of a+
     
  17. Mysterious M

    Mysterious M Dream /\ Bigger

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    Moved Arceus-Water back to A+.
     
  18. Aurora2698

    Aurora2698 Aurora on Smogon

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    I'd just like to ask: why is non-Primal Kyogre B-? Dropping to low C or C- would be overstating the viability of this trash. There is absolutely no reason to use it over Primal Kyogre. Scarf Kyogre is complete garbage with Primal Groudon everywhere; Desolate Land gives Primal Groudon free switch-ins on regular Kyogre and it can't even chip Primal Groudon with Ice Beam as well as Primal Kyogre can because of its lower Special Attack stat. Any other set is just hopelessly outclassed by Primal Kyogre. Even if you remove Primal Groudon from play, Kyogre is still hopelessly walled by viable Pokemon such as Blissey, Water Arceus, Dragon Arceus, Latias, Latios, and even the humble Palkia, preventing it from putting in that much work; one again, its lower Special Attack comes back to bite it in this regard.

    As for the other nominations that have been brought up, I agree with moving Darkrai to S rank as it is one of the most threatening Pokemon in the tier to balance teams and is a staple on most offensive squads. Also fully support MMY dropping as the opportunity cost of running a Mega that is weaker than its base form and can't switch into Darkrai anyway after even small amounts of prior damage is simply too great when there are far better Mega Pokemon (Mega Salamence!) available.
     
  19. cries in vain

    cries in vain not a prayer unsung

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    idk why darkrai-->s hasn't been implemented yet and yeah scarfogre is fucking garbage can be in 'd' i guess
    also gonna nom rockceus to b+ and dragceus to b+
    while rockceus has a well defined niche in checking ho oh admirably well it's a rly mediocre ass defogger and the rest of the team usually ends up incredibly ho oh weak and if somehow rockceus dies or gets trapped by gar the rest of the team is just ripped apart by ho oh
    the thing about checking ho oh is that u need to play well and ensconce ur intent and rockceus is kinda a mediocre mon tbh
    both water/dragceus r better as arc forms
    dragceus should def be b+ as it's def as gud as smth like rockceus while checking both ho oh and pdon instead of just the former and is a much better defogger
     
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2016
  20. Serga

    Serga 2easy

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    MM2Y to B+, its base form it's just better as Aurora said, and the opportunity cost makes it difficult to justify over regular Mew2.
    Arceus-Rock to B+, worse defogger than dragceus/waterceus (both check ho-oh and mence as well) , but the CM set is not bad
    Dragceus to B+, agree w/ @cries in vain
    Regular groudon and ogre to C/C-. Outclassed by primals (specially ogre). Using groudon means you can't use its primal form, which is in 95% of the teams.
     
  21. Mysterious M

    Mysterious M Dream /\ Bigger

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    Agreed with all the discussed opinions, will proceed with updating the thread later this week.
     
  22. Mysterious M

    Mysterious M Dream /\ Bigger

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    * VIABILITY RANKINGS UPDATE* (3)

    OK, so i went forward and made some updates regarding the suggestions.

    Updates:
    [​IMG] to S
    [​IMG] to B+
    [​IMG] to B+
    [​IMG] to C
    [​IMG] to C

    I do agree with Rockceus going B+, but i would like some more discussion on it. Also, i think we should start discussing the order of the mons in each rank, so we can have an even more accurate description of the viability in Oras Ubers. Lets start with the order of A+ , A and A- . I have my suggestion here:

    A+ : Mega Gengar > Arceus-Water > Lugia

    A: Deoxys S > Mega Sableye > Klefki > Latios > Arceus Ghost > Arceus Ground

    A-: Gira - O > Deo - A > Diancie > Primal Kyogre > Rayquaza > Yveltal > Mewtwo > Rockceus

    Lets have some discussions!
     
  23. Serga

    Serga 2easy

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    Groundceus above ghostceus. It checks pdon and can threaten with a sweep, ho-oh balance with pdon klefki latias / gira-o without wisp get fckin rekt by it, specially if paired w/ megagar to remove the defogger. + Recover makes it able to sweep multiple times (hates lava plume pdon though). Ghostceus is not bad cause it can run different sets but imo SD Darkrai is a better physical sweeper

    And maybe mew2 above yveltal but not sure about this one

    Everything else seems ok
     
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2016
  24. cries in vain

    cries in vain not a prayer unsung

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    sd darkrai what m8?
    i'm honestly not sure about groundceus being above ghostceus in the viability ranks
    ghostceus is an incredibly versatile mon and can run both special and physically offensive sets as well as a defensive defogging set and it checks a lot of stuff too while also spinblocking
    maybe i'm biased b/c i fucking love this mon but yeah i fucking love it for good reason
     
  25. Serga

    Serga 2easy

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    What I don't like about ghostceus is that the opponent can just get free turns once they know the set. Ho-oh checks defog and CM sets (and ho-oh is everywhere) and yveltal walls it. + recently we've seen some Ekiller sets with refresh/recover to be able to sweep through wow ghostceus. Groundceus is a threat everytime it switches in, and some mons that were supposed to check it (like hex gira-o or lati@s w/out grass knot) can't kill it cause of recover. Even if some mon on the other team walls you (like lugia if SR are not up) you can recover and regain health without risking a double switch.
     
  26. Mysterious M

    Mysterious M Dream /\ Bigger

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    Soo, they mighty Volcanion is out and usable now in Ubers. What tier do you think i shall rank it?
     
  27. Konzern

    Konzern Banned

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    not usable.
     
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  28. Blitzamirin

    Blitzamirin Waluigi! Number one!

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    Click Explosion Turn 1
     
  29. Reece reynolds

    Reece reynolds ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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    imo goth is not worthy of B it should drop to c+ or c rank.

    1) gengar uses shadow tag but does it better
    2)stronk physycal attackers kill it (tina-o,genesect,ect)
    3)SD/DD users (rayquaza,arcues,ect)
    4) mega metagross- gets strong physycal STABS,has access to pursuit, resists psyshock
    5) hex M gar can will-o-wisp then hex or can hex on rest
    6) CM abusers-can set up on goth pretty easaly

    in my opinion this mon is more of a meme than acctualy viable.
     
  30. Lacus Clyne

    Lacus Clyne This might get unpleasant!

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    The only thing I agree to is that Gengar is better, but you are right. It should indeed drop.
     
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  31. cries in vain

    cries in vain not a prayer unsung

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    i mean goth is at least better than the mons in C
    it does what it's meant 2 which is performing admirably vs balance(stall too)
    lando t should probs go 2 b- or b tho
    gonna post more on this l8r
     
  32. Konzern

    Konzern Banned

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    goth is good lol. genesect isn't a thing and tina is running hex sets more often. you can't compare gar and goth in the same manner they do jobs differently. i think b- is fine as for wobb on the other hand drop it from B pls to like c+
     
  33. Mysterious M

    Mysterious M Dream /\ Bigger

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    i agree with @cries in vain regarding lando t, i can see it be in B. Scarf set is nice featurinf uturn and giving you momentum, while explosion can be used too.
    I also think gothi is ok (like cries said, but it is a wasted slot vs offense) can see a drop to C+.
     
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  34. Mysterious M

    Mysterious M Dream /\ Bigger

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    I am updated the list once more, applying the following changes:
    [​IMG]: C+ -> B
    [​IMG]: B- -> C+

    For any disagreements/arguements please comment below. I am open to any suggested changes!

    I think we should discuss the place of each mon inside every rank. The order of them from stronger to weaker. Lets discuss!
     
  35. Konzern

    Konzern Banned

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    s+

    primal groudon s+

    s

    xerneas
    gengar
    salamence
    ekiller

    s-

    ho-oh
    darkrai

    a+

    klefki
    deo-a
    arc-water
    arc-ground
    lugia
    gira-o
    yveltal
    dialga
    land-t
    deo-s

    a

    arc-ghost
    m-diancie
    p-ogre
    rayquaza
    latios

    a-

    mewtwo
    m-sableye
    arc-drag
    excadrill
    tyranitar
    bronzong
    m-kanga

    b+

    mmy
    arceus-fairy
    shaymin-s

    rest r kinda irrelevant lol, ill post reasoning for anything that comes into question but this is pmuch
    self explanatory so i didn't see the need to elaborate unless necessary.
     
  36. Serga

    Serga 2easy

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    Way too much stuff in a+.
    A+
    Deo-a - nukes everything, gets a kill vs HO everytime it switches in.
    Groundceus - spatk set gaining popularity + SD set being great as usual + pdon check
    Waterceus - it's waterceus
    Klefki - emergency check to almost any mon + steel type + utility in spikes and status is awesome

    A
    Dialga - provides a mence check to HO, good stabs and utility moves, but it can't provide the wide range of utility A+ mons can.
    Gira-O - good mon but gets crippled way too easily + recover ekiller is more popular right now
    Lugia - needs too much support and stall is not that great nowadays
    Deo-s - standard HO is not that good now and is being replaced by dialga HO
    Latios
    Diancie -
    Dragceus - competes with waterceus, its main problem being called diancie / klefki/ steels in general that kill your momentum

    A-
    Ygod - the defensive set main problem is that it can only check one mon (w/charti) and its offensice set is not so useful when stall is almost non-existent.
    Primal ogre - only good set is restalk defensive, which takes way too many turns to kill pdon + it's slow as fuck + thunder rai is popular (rip sleep absorb).
    Ghostceus - good ekiller check but other offensive ceus formes outclass it.
    Rayquaza - almost all pdon runing stone edge/ twave+rock slide and dialga being so popular make it not that good. But it's still a nice wallbreaker and has priority
    Lando-t - grabs momentum on HO, maybe it can go higher in A- rank.
    Mega Sab
    Mew2
    Zong

    B+
    Exca
    Mega Kanga
    Ttar
    MMY
    Skymin

    Fairyceus to B
     
    Last edited: Aug 30, 2016
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  37. Konzern

    Konzern Banned

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    your post is one of an erroneously myopic viewpoint of vr rankings. i succinctly have trouble responding to this because of how convoluted your argument is. you can't neglect somethings place in a+ solely for the reason there is too much stuff in a certain category. if a pokemon has earned the place to b in a+ then it should deserve to be. ill only address a few of your points which i am in complete disagreement with.

    yveltal: you say that it has problems as a defensive mon but you clearly forget that its main use now is as an offensive mon. its the most versatile imo in which it can run a physically offensive or specially offensive set and plow teams. it is a balance slayer while pressuring offense w dpulse, knock off, oblivion wing and sucker.

    lugia: "too much support and stall isn't great nowadays" with the logic of too much support, you also categorize hooh in a same, if not more extreme category, thus invalidating your argument. also branding stall as lugia's only team option is the most conflated view point. statistically speaking, in the ubers open r1, 34 lugias were used while only 8 blisseys and 2 chanseys were used. both of those mons are staple on stall teams. this means that 2/3s of the time lugia is used it isn't on stall. these rough statistics actually hold throughout r2/3.

    landot: you never gave an argument why it shouldn't b a+. its the best offensive check to pdon and amazing at revenge killing and fits on offense and balance.

    gira o: recover arc if anything is better for gira o cause it can wisp dtail beat it. hex/twave/dm/defog is all hype imo and has some use and is vastly overrated by not checking much. and using that arc set as a way to inferiorize the legitimacy of a mon is bad rhetoric and reasoning to begin with.

    deo s could drop i guess I'm still a strong proponent of dialga as its just so good rn.
     
  38. Lacus Clyne

    Lacus Clyne This might get unpleasant!

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    PO Trainer Name:
    Lacus Clyne
    lol Lando-T A+ hahahahaha
    It revenges stuff thats cool, but it is set-up bait for Recover E-Kiler and Mega Salamence. I think you are overrestimating it a bit too much.
     
    Zoroark, Serga, Mysterious M and 2 others like this.
  39. Funbot28

    Funbot28 Active Member

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    Guess will leave my suggestions for the rankings within tiers from S-A (its too hard below that imo), with a few of my noms in between:

    S-Rank
    S+
    [​IMG]

    S
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG] (Moved up from A+)
    [​IMG]

    A-Rank
    A+
    [​IMG] (Moved down from S)
    [​IMG] (Moved up from A-)
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    A
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG] (moved down from A+)
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG] (Moved up from A-)
    [​IMG]

    A-
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG] (moved down from A)
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

     
  40. Serga

    Serga 2easy

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    PO Trainer Name:
    Serga
    Gengar should be above salamence (maybe not at top). It gets a kill w/ dbond every game and can trap its teammates' checks.
    S- rank should be created to put Ho-oh and darkrai there, respectively.
    Deo-S should move down to bottom (or close) of A rank. Standard HO is not so popular and Dialga HO is better rn.
    Groundceus above Lugia. I would put it in A+, but top of A is fine.
    Klefki above waterceus. Gives so much utility in twave+spikes, and can run heal block for rest xern.
    I'd put ghostceus in A- rank but that's just my point of view, prolly bottom of A rank is fine.

    @Konzern
    9 mons being in A+ rank means they are (almost) as viable as the other 8 mons in that rank. I don't think they are. 9 mons in the same rank is not a problem, but 9 mons with more/less viability in the same rank is (ofc you can think they are -almost- equally viable, but i think they are not).
    I put Lugia in A and not in A+ cause of that reason. If it only worked on stall i would have put it in a lower rank.
    Yveltal's offensive set can break balance/fat teams with ease, but it can hardly switch into anything but ghostceus, especially when rocks are up, and in this meta rocks will probably be up.
    Gira-O Dtail set gives it the chance to check recover Ekiller but it still gets worn down so easily + xern gets an almost free switch in everytime gira-o it's in (if you sforce it can geo and then you need to sack something).
    I thought Lando-T was obvious.

    I should have prolly given more reasoning, but I still gave more than you did initially