[ORAS] Oras Ubers Viability Rankings V2

Discussion in 'Past Gens Discussion' started by Mysterious M, Dec 10, 2015.

  1. Mysterious M

    Mysterious M Dream /\ Bigger

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    Hello and welcome to the Oras Ubers Viability Rankings!

    @Poke Expert and i made this new list,cause the last one was kinda outdated.The list of course can not be perfect so feel free to comment with your own thoughts and opinions about any mistakes/changes. Lets see:

    S Tier
    S+


    [​IMG] Groudon (Primal)
    S


    [​IMG] Arceus-Normal

    [​IMG] Salamence (Mega)

    [​IMG] Xerneas

    [​IMG] Darkrai

    [​IMG] Ho Oh
    A Tier
    A+


    [​IMG] Gengar (Mega)

    [​IMG] Arceus-Water

    [​IMG] Lugia
    A


    [​IMG]Sableye (Mega)

    [​IMG] Deoxys-Speed

    [​IMG] Klefki
     

    [​IMG] Latios

    [​IMG] Arceus-Ghost

    [​IMG] Arceus-Ground
    A-


    [​IMG]Diancie (Mega)

    [​IMG] Giratina-Origin

    [​IMG] Kyogre (Primal)

    [​IMG] Yveltal

    [​IMG] Rayquaza

    [​IMG] Deoxys-Attack
     

    [​IMG] Mewtwo

    [​IMG] Arceus-Rock
    B Tier
    B+


    [​IMG] Kanghaskan (Mega)

    [​IMG] Latias

    [​IMG] Mewtwo (Mega Y)

    [​IMG] Excadrill

    [​IMG] Arceus-Dragon

    [​IMG] Dialga

    [​IMG] Mewtwo (Mega X)
     

    [​IMG] Shaymin-Sky

    [​IMG]Tyranitar

    [​IMG] Skarmory

    [​IMG]Bronzong

    [​IMG] Aegislash
    B


    [​IMG] Ferrothorn

    [​IMG]Lucario (Mega)

    [​IMG] Blissey
     

    [​IMG] Zekrom

    [​IMG]Landorous-Therian

    [​IMG] Wobbuffet
    B-


    [​IMG] Arceus-Dark

    [​IMG] Clefable

    [​IMG] Jirachi
     

    [​IMG]Scizor (Mega)

    [​IMG]Cloyster
    C Tier
    C+


    [​IMG] Greninja

    [​IMG]Gothitelle

    [​IMG] Scolipede

    [​IMG] Kyurem-White

    [​IMG] Genesect

    [​IMG][​IMG] Blaziken + (Mega)

    [​IMG] Smeargle
     

    [​IMG] Tentacruel

    [​IMG] Arceus-Fairy

    [​IMG]Tyranitar (Mega)

    [​IMG] Ditto
     

    [​IMG] Forretress

    [​IMG]Alomomola

    [​IMG] Aerodactyl (Mega)
    C


    [​IMG] Palkia

    [​IMG]Giratina

    [​IMG] Mawile (Mega)

    [​IMG] Slowbro (Mega)

    [​IMG] Kyogre

    [​IMG] Groudon

    [​IMG] Arceus-Ice
     

    [​IMG] Arceus-Poison

    [​IMG] Arceus-Steel

    [​IMG] Arceus-Fighting

    [​IMG] Arceus-Grass
    C-


    [​IMG] Arceus-Flying

    [​IMG] Lopunny (Mega)

    [​IMG] Gliscor

    [​IMG] Arceus-Electric

    [​IMG] Landorous-Incarnate

    [​IMG] Reshiram
    D Tier

    [​IMG] Arceus-Psychic

    [​IMG] Arceus-Bug

    [​IMG] Arceus-Fire

    [​IMG] Deoxys

    [​IMG] Deoxys-Defense
    F Tier
    [​IMG] Chansey - Blissey is the best option since it can not be trapped. (Shadow Tag is an ability with highly rising viability. Mega Gengar| Gothitelle etc)
    [​IMG]Latias/Latios (Mega) - They are both outclassed by their normal forms holding Soul Dew.

    Thanks for reading, lets discuss!
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 13, 2016
  2. Edna

    Edna Chasing the Dragon Forum Moderator Forum Moderator

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    Yveltal A- ??? Literally one of the best Ekiller check that you can slap easily in a team.

    I know you like Arc water but it's overated. Rest talk groudon owns it

    Mega mewtwos in B+? I hope this is a joke. All of them are A+ material at least and MegaY has no virtual counters. MegaX wallbreaks very nicely too
     
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  3. Mysterious M

    Mysterious M Dream /\ Bigger

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    OK, lets see.

    Yveltal can not be any higher, because of several reasons. Offensive (LO?) Yveltal does not always work out because the teams it is used in lack in defense support and they are weak to most HO , some balances including Ho Oh, when at the same team do really average against stall. Now defensively speaking, as you stated "one of the best ekiller checks" is really weak against Ekiller after SR as it makes it vonourable to stone edge. Using the charti berry does not make the things any better. Yveltal is a good defensive wall, i myself use it, but it is not for a higher rank.

    Waterceus is not overated i explained the reasons in the last viability thread. It is a support mon, it is logical to lose to 1/15 people who will use the rest slp talk set. Plus, A tier mons: "they usually require a bit more team support than S-Rank Pokemon."

    About Mega Mewtwos i would like you to explain why should they be considered "A+ Materials"
     
  4. Draciel

    Draciel ALLEZ! ALLEZ! ALLEZ!

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    I won't claim to be very knowledgeable about ORAS Ubers but I think both Mega Mewtwo X and Y should be A at least, they both hit incredibly hard, have Taunt to shut down walls, mega Y is especially hard to stop if it manages to get a CM boost.

    Yveltal should be in A at least, it's extremely good in both offensive and defensive sets.

    I'd also argue about Arceus-Ghost and Primal Kyogre being A+ at least. Ghostceus is very effective both as a support mon and a Set-up sweeper, whereas Primal Kyogre is amazing and I think I need to explain why.
     
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  5. Uaifu

    Uaifu ★LT8Y Asuya: I'm German dude

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    Hi:Imho Kanga is an underrated Pokemon on this metagame,can damage any Pokemon significantly.He haven't a true counter,Lugia can damaged by SuckerPunch+Rock,have many checks,like MMY w/ ASphere.Also is a great offensive mon.


    252 Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Lugia: 153-183 (36.7 - 43.9%) -- 44.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

    B+>A
     
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2015
  6. TraceofLife

    TraceofLife Lucky Strike

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    i think mega kanga is fine where he is, it's not the best mega, in the term of wallbreaking it's still weaker than mence and such anyway let's see how it fares against other A mon

    Sableye-Mega: lol, kanga straight up loses to it
    Latios: eh, i'm not really sure, but i think latios lose anyway
    Arceus-Ghost: kanga lose to this
    Klefki: while klefki can't do anything, it can para mega kanga
    Deoxys-Speed: lol, it's a suicide lead
    Arceus-Ground: depends on the set

    so yeah, Mega Kangaskhan is fine where it is

    also i believe Arceus-Water shouldn't be A+, it should be A imo
     
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  7. Email

    Email reformed xd

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    I feel like ferro should replace excadrill since ferro has way more of a chance of surviving while hitting hard, mega gengar definitely should be In s tier, you also spelled jirachi wrong
     
  8. Velvet Blood

    Velvet Blood Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, I did want mega gengar to at least be at S Rank and both mega mewtwos at A+ rank. I also thought before making the list that genesect should put A- rank, due to its good use in the tier. Lastly, I know waterceus is your favorite arceus out of all of them but does it really deserve an A+ rank? I don't think so, it should at least be A rank in my opinion.

    Now time for the pokemon I think is good where they are. Yveltal should stay at A- rank because it's hard to switch in and it is useless after getting hit from status such as twave and burns tbh and yveltal can't really live that long cause there will be rocks up and yveltal can have lo + status problem, but maybe it could be at A rank tbh. And @Email ferro isn't really all that good to get higher rank than excadrill tbh, it dies from any mon in the tier and taunt is a bitch, plus mega sableye says hello. Excadrill having mold breaker can use stealth rocks and can do more than ferro and people use sash exca, it can just kill mons like xer, don, aegi, diancie, ho oh and yeah I don't think ferro or excadrill should switch places with each other on list.

    We will update the list soon please give feedback on list while its still not updated.
     
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2015
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  9. Mysterious M

    Mysterious M Dream /\ Bigger

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    Before i say anything, i would like to remind that this thread is all about the discussion so obviously we are gonna be updating the list frequently.
    I would just like to point out that i like opinions explained a bit more than just "hits hard".

    OK i guess that Yveltal could go rank A but take under consideration the following:
    1)It can be used just to wall only one mon. If a team has Ekiller + Mega Sala or Ray or any other offensive mon, only one gets blocked, so the team will need another physical wall.
    2)It is a free setup for one of the most common mons of the tier, Xerneas.
    3)You can risk taunting Xern, but what if it moonblasts.
    4)After SR damage, Yveltal can be taken down with stone edge from ekiller.
    5)The offensive set of Yveltal can not be switched in safely.

    Now about Ferrothorn > Excadrill as stated by @Email . To begin with they have a bit different roles.Excadrill has the mold breaker ability which helps a lot for setting up rocks against anything. Has toxic to pressure more, hits ok with eq/rock slide while at the same time keeps your side clean from hazards with rapid spin. Ferro is a good mon but it is free setup for the S ranked P.Don, or an easy deal for Ho Oh, or many other mons on the tier. It can be somehow useful as P. Kyo counter, or even Xern (although there is focus blast). It can also pressure a lot with spikes or with leech seed. Well i could consider a possible change to B > B+ . But i dont think a replacement with Exca would be a good idea.
     
  10. Edna

    Edna Chasing the Dragon Forum Moderator Forum Moderator

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    How is Forretress better than Palkia btw. All it does in tier is to spin at best.
    Regular groudon is better than C whatever you say, it can still run dual dance with Lum
    I disagree with Latios in A rank, if you want to play a defogger with access to soul dew just play latias at least it wall scarf/specs kyogre. it's way too frail. also just to remember you they're weak to knock off anw.

    Nothing switches into mega mewtwos, if Y has psytrike ice beam flamethrower, it has 0 counters, taunt is just a fantastic move to wallbreak also
     
  11. Lacus Clyne

    Lacus Clyne This might get unpleasant!

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    Kyurem-W = C+
    /

    Kyogre = D or C-
    I explained that in my earlier post why this mon sucks.

    Gliscor = C- or D
    U gotta be kidding me. What does this mon da again? It can't check Primal-Groudon unless they are SD or the RP Variant. But lets be honest. Everyone prefers the SR Support set so gliscor is completly useless.

    Gothitelle = B- or C+
    I personally love Gothitelle but there are some huge problems with this mon. Like its completly useless against standard HO. Standard HO completly shits on it and so does BO.

    Genesect = C
    Its sadly not that good anymore like it was in BW2. U can still make that hit and run play but that mon is completly walled against most bulky pokemon and there are a lot of them. Sableye, Ho-Oh, P-Don, all Arceus-Formes and more.

    Skarmory = B+
    I feel like that this mon is a bit underrated. It walls Mega-Salamence, which is huge and is also able to check E-Killer. Don't forget that u can use him as a Lati@s check or defoger. There are like many options u can use with this mon but I think Mgar is holding this mon out from A rank.
     
  12. Mysterious M

    Mysterious M Dream /\ Bigger

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    @Elize Lutus i agree with most of the above you stated, i am also a Palkia fan. So yeah i could perhaps see a switch between Palkia and Foretress. Groudon can be used but i am not sure whether it would fit B Tier. Latios is good for A imo, cause it can counter P.Don and be used as a defogger as well, while at the same time it hits really harder than Latias. Though Latias could also be considered for A. I will also agree for the mewtwos statement after some further thinking. Could you present your proposals for changing with the tier you want each mon to be placed in? So it can be easily discussed.

    @Lacus Clyne i could see Kyyrem dropping a bit from B, but dont you think C- is too much. The LO variant is a really decent one. With the rest of your suggestions i am positive, especially with Skarmory. This is a really good ekiller/mega sala check it has access to hazards and defog too. I could easily have this B+ in my opinion.
     
  13. Lacus Clyne

    Lacus Clyne This might get unpleasant!

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    Fren my post said dropping Kyurem-W to C+ and not C- lol
     
  14. Mysterious M

    Mysterious M Dream /\ Bigger

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    ah just noticed, well in that case i have to agree 6/6 lol
     
  15. Edna

    Edna Chasing the Dragon Forum Moderator Forum Moderator

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    Mega mewtwos to A/A+
    Palkia to B/B+
    Forretress to C/C-
    Groudon to B/B+
    Kyogre is fine in B-
     
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  16. Mysterious M

    Mysterious M Dream /\ Bigger

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    I would argue for:

    Mega Mewtwos > A-
    Palkia > B-
    Foretress > C
    Groudon > I think adding Groudon to B+ is a bit too much, perhaps a B- would fit better.
    Kyogre > I could see it drop till C+

    But enough from me i would like to see what others believe about those proposals!
     
  17. La.Melle2402

    La.Melle2402 I'm the bone of my sword

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    Ghost-Arceus really deserves A+ or S-. There arent many pokemon that can stop it after a swords dance.
    I dont think regular Mewtwo is better than both megas, at least Mega Y deserves A-
    Mega Lopunny needs to be much higher. Its a good anti lead with magic coat. Also it has Scrappy, which let u easy kill Mega Sableye and it kills Aegi as well.
    B- for Cloyster and Gliscor are too high
     
  18. Lacus Clyne

    Lacus Clyne This might get unpleasant!

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    Tbh I have to disagree with a few things.
    I can see MMY rising to A- but why waste a mega slot for MMY? I mean normal LO hits harder and the best thing about it is not wasting ur mega slot for such a thing. I mean I don't see where u get some beneftis out of it. Next thing is MMX. It completly sucks and can't even break stall. The only viable set is the mixed version but that set ain't really what u want on a "solid" team. So imo let them stay in B.

    Palkia is completly garbage. It gets overwhelmed by everything and can do less back. It can't even wall P-Ogre well since it gets worn down quite easily.

    Forretress ain't really good so I agree on putting it to C. The only viable combination is M-Aero + Forre. But Forretress gets outclassed by Cloyster and Scolipede.

    Groudon to B- or C+. Well I can see some potantial flaws but I don't think that there is anything good about it besides phazing physical mons and getting out rocks.

    Ogre is like I explained D. Show me one good team with it. It's just Set-Up Bait for Xern, P-Don and even Goth.

    Ghost-Ceus is fine in A. SD Ghost-Ceus may have some good flaws but good players can outsmart it with a nice ghost-normal combination or just use a dark type like yveltal.

    Mega Lopunny ain't really good. I innovated that set and had some problems with stall and BO. Salamence, Lugia and defensive Arc-Types are all too bulky. The fact tha M-Salamence can tank an ice-punch after intimidate is quite scary. So let it stay in C or C+.

    Cloyster should drop to C+. I also used it quite a lot and its most of the time a 50/50 against m-bounce unless u run a back check.
     
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  19. Aurist

    Aurist I do not jump for joy. I frolic in doubt.

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    Formatted everything into pretty tables and fixed some typos! Ask me if you need help with any of the formatting :+]
     
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  20. Mysterious M

    Mysterious M Dream /\ Bigger

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    I would like to propose Scolipede from C+ > B- , as it can set tspikes on, can deal with deo leads with pin missle, can also run endeavor and cause problems as a lead. It can be helpfull in HO.

    For the Mewtwos i think that indeed the normal Lo Mewtwo hits really hard while does not waste any mega slots, but MMY could be considered as an option for A- , as it has many pros. MMX can stay in B+ cause it can not do as much as the other two forms.

    I also want to ask your thoughts about Greninja. Should it be B- or you think C+ is ok? Because of its high speed w/ taunt & hazard setting.
     
  21. Troller

    Troller Well-Known Member

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    [​IMG] S+ Please, strongest pokémon in the tier.
    [​IMG] A+ In this tier only bulky Arceus and Ferrothorn can enter on this pokémon
    [​IMG] A+ Really Thunder Wave priority can stop Xerneas and DD Mega Mence lol
    [​IMG] A/A+ How can you understimate this pokémon, he can stop Arceus/Mega Mence Boosted or destroy asses with Life Orb
    [​IMG] A What a check of Primal Groudon, solid defogger and not bad power of his (Dragon) Tail
    [​IMG]A Ok Primal Groudon is a big deal, but the fucking Primal Kyogre can still beat some stuff
    [​IMG]A What an unpredictable moveset, still good against Offensive teams...
    [​IMG]A- Great coverage, speed and special attack... too much problems but he can't stay in the same rank of Tyranitar and Excadrill...
    [​IMG]A Very good vs Offense, 190 based attack, Taunt and stab Low Kick wtf
    [​IMG]A- People currently don't know that this little pokémon che D E S T R O Y entire stall teams (Mega Sableye best coun... FUCKING IRON TAAAAIIL)
    [​IMG]A- U-Turn on Darkrai and Mewtwo is still good, also can revenge kill Mega Mence with Ice Beam...
     
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2015
  22. Funbot28

    Funbot28 Active Member

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    Can we remove S-, moving Ho-Oh to S and Darkrai to A+?

    Ho-Oh is amazing right now thanks to it's balance team centered around it being so prevalent. It has two incredible STABs that 2HKO practically the entire tier, while with Regenerator that helps negate LO recoil. SR weakness is not nice to have, but Regen plus Drfog Lati'd/Arceus plus 2 Magic Bouncers makes up for that imo.

    Darkrai is a extremely threatening mon don't get me wrong, but I find it to be too team specific to be in S. It only really fits on HO teams and has really no versatility in it's sets like the other S mons do. It is very annoying with sleep, but besides that, I don't see it any more threatening than Mega Gengar or Latios.
     
  23. Mysterious M

    Mysterious M Dream /\ Bigger

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    @Troller i think you overrate some mons.. We cant have everything in rank A and some of your suggestions are just wrong.

    To begin with, Genesect , Lucario & Kanghaskan are not likely close to have any place in the A Tier. Some of the reasons have been stated earlier.
    Diancie for sure is a cool mon with its ability and stuff , but loses to A LOT of the tiers mons and it is too fragile to be A+. It can hardly switch into a few mons.Giratina-O and Primal Kyogre, i think they are fine at A- , while klefki and yveltal can be considered for A+ and A.

    @Funbot28 I agree with having an S tier with Ho Oh in it, and place Darkrai alongside Mega Gengar for A+
     
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  24. Mysterious M

    Mysterious M Dream /\ Bigger

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    Yeah? having S+ and S tier, with ho oh in it. And darkrai go to A+..
     
  25. Mysterious M

    Mysterious M Dream /\ Bigger

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    * VIABILITY RANKINGS UPDATE* (1)

    So after considering some of your thoughts/proposals we updated the list. Changes made:

    Waterceus: A+ -> A
    Yveltal: A- -> A
    Mega Mewtwo Y: B+ -> A-
    Skarmory: B -> B+
    Gothitelle: B -> B-
    Groudon: C -> B-
    Kyyrem-White: B -> C-
    Gliscor: B- -> C-

    You will also notice, a change into the S tier. We decided to disband S- and move Ho Oh to S and Darkrai to A+.

    Apart from your thoughts of these changes i would like to discuss about:

    >The current A- list.
    >The current C- list.
    >And the mons: Mega Lucario | Mega Mewtwo X | Primal Kyogre . Should those be placed higher on the list? Lets go!
     
  26. Velvet Blood

    Velvet Blood Well-Known Member

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    Updated list:
    Waterceus: A+ -> A
    Yveltal: A- -> A
    Mega Mewtwo Y: B+ -> A-
    Skarmory: B -> B+
    Gothitelle: B -> B-
    Groudon: C -> B-
    Kyyrem-White: B -> C+
    Gliscor: B- -> C-
    What do you guys think of the changes to the list?

    Oh I forgot, mega lucario should be put in A- or maybe even at A rank because it can be a special and a physcal mon. Can take down things like ho oh by just using stone edge and walls like clefable with flash cannon same with xerneas. Mega lucario is worthy of A rank imo. I don't get how people don't use mega lucario, it's such a great pokemon

    Mega Mewtwo X should be placed at A+ rank because it can just rek many teams apart, especially Gayrai. Mixed mewtwo x is great and a special mewtwo x is legit cool, I ran into one when I was facing a player that had CM, focus blast, ice beam, and sub mewtwo x. Very unexpected but hey it works lol. Lastly, mewtwo can just take out many pokemon such as ho-oh, dialga, darkrai, salamence, etc. Mewtwo can just bulk up and take out teams. This deserves to be rank A+

    Like mewtwo, kyogre has many ways to be used in battle. I myself like to use rest stalk set with cm and end my opponents team after getting a +6 with cm. It can take out many mons and plus its new move it got (Origin Pulse) is just really good, but it could just end up missing when you most need it. Kyogre deserves an A+ rank.

    Please give feedback about updated list, new updates to this thread will be added shortly and have a good day friends! :)
     
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2015
  27. Velvet Blood

    Velvet Blood Well-Known Member

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    I think Kyurem-W being switched from B- to C+ wasn't good, imo it should've bumped up a rank than go down. Kyurem-W is better than a C+ rank it deserves at least B rank due to its good usage in the tier. I know its just not used a lot, but specs kyurem-w is a fucking savage. I think I'm not the only one who thinks kyurem-w shouldn't be C+ rank.

    Couldn't help noticing how forretress was rank C+ while palkia was in rank C. I mean like, all forretress does is spin tbh lol not really useful.

    And maybe mega mewtwo y can be added to A rank than A- rank? :s
     
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2015
  28. TraceofLife

    TraceofLife Lucky Strike

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    i agree with MMX moving to A+, it's fast, has taunt to fuck up walls, a lot of good coverage and such
     
  29. Lacus Clyne

    Lacus Clyne This might get unpleasant!

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    what walls are we talking about? mmx is doing literally nothing against stall and if u run the "good" mixed set u are walled by quite a few things. as an example there is Ho-Oh or even klefki. well ho-oh ain't a threat if u replace iron tail with stone edge but there are way too many defensive pokemon that can check that thing. Lati@s, Mega, Sableye, Xerneas, skarmory and well every other ghost pokemon. so I dunno what is good about mmx. sure it outspeeds darkrai and can somehow check every e-killer (not ghost) but if we look on it more closely it completly sucks. the fact that ur mega slot is used makes that mon even worse.

    kyurem-w is completly shit. don't say its good because it got this high SpA. like I said earlier how are u gonna play this mon? let me be more precise. how are u gonna let that mon switch-in? I can see u-turn but thats all. like if rocks are up that mon goes down way too fast so u are forced to make so many backchecks for only this mon who can't even shut down stuff to 100%? please look at the description of C.

    C Rank Pokemon have notable niches in the metagame, but usually require significant support. These Pokemon face competition for their roles from the higher ranked Pokemon, sometimes due to being outclassed, but can find still find use.

    Mega Lucario is sure a nice niche in battles since most people don't really prepare for this mon. I also used that mon for some tours a while back but that mon has a major problem, speed control. Yeah sure it breaks stall but u need to look the other way around that this mon is completly shit against HO. You don't wanna coinflip ur next match and hope ur opponent doesn't carry a HO team.
     
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  30. OUAzumarill

    OUAzumarill Active Member

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    I just noticed Dialga is missing. Not sure if it's intentional or not, but I'd argue that this mon is AT LEAST as good as Palkia, if not leaps and bounds better due to its ability to check tons more mons with its multitude of resistances and solid defense stats. Also can carry rocks.
     
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  31. Edna

    Edna Chasing the Dragon Forum Moderator Forum Moderator

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    True people run AV Dialga with Metal Burst to ohko Xerneas.

    I think it's like B rank though, it can still run specs, lum Twave or even LO. Though it's kinda crippled by Groudon and Ho-oh long run which is why I think it's B rank
     
  32. Mysterious M

    Mysterious M Dream /\ Bigger

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    Yeah you were right, i think it should be in B+. If you have any other thoughts, i am open. Thanks @OUAzumarill for the notice

    Dialga was added in B+
     
  33. Mysterious M

    Mysterious M Dream /\ Bigger

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    * New Discussion about the pokemon ranked as B Tier*

    -Do you think there should be any changes into the tier as it is?
    -Should any mons drop from A to B , or raise from C to B?

    Lets go!
     
  34. Serga

    Serga 2easy

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    Thanks M and PE for reviving the Ubers subforum. Just my two cents on the viability rankings
    - Why is Yveltal so high? I would say A-, I understand that it can run two completely different sets (physically defensive and LO all-out attacker), it checks Ghost mons, it can revenge kill mm2 (can't switch in on Ice Beam) and lati@s (can't switch in on DMeteor), but it takes 25% from rocks, the foul play set can only check one mon at most (unless the opp is using ghostceus), since nowadays many ekiller run SE. Charti Berry can be used, but it's a single-use item and even using it stone edge deals enough damage to help megamence sweep later on.
    - MM2's: MM2Y can soft check darkrai with Insomnia and Focus Miss/Aura Sphere, but the opportunity cost makes mewtwo (base) more viable since it can still hit hard while using taunt/cm. A- rank both base and mega-Y, although MM2Y is a bit worse.
    Regarding MM2X, it is dead weight against Stall (can't Taunt Mega Sableye) and its 4MSS doesn't let him check everything it should be able to (SE, EQ, Ice Beam/Punch, Iron Tail,...). It can check darkrai, but can't switch into dark void so you still need a sleep absorber, and it can't switch into dpulse when not mega evolved.
    - Palkia is a bad mon. Kyogre is not an issue since PDon is a really good check that's used on almost every team. Its All-Out attacker set with Lustrous Orb is not bad, but you need to predict every single switch since Xern and PDon block its STABs. Tbh I don't know why I am wasting my time writing about Palkia when Lati@s exist.
    - POgre is one of the best mons in the tier when there's no PDon on the opp's team. I personally like the Physically defensive set since I can absorb all kind of status while countering Mega Diancie, bulky Arceus, and stall mons in general (ScaldBestMove2k16). It can also tank powerful hits from Ekiller, Xern, Ray, and Megamence. So, overall, move it to A.
    - Mega Lucario relies on matchup way too much, mainly cause its defensive stats suck, and its speed tier is not really good. However, many teams are not prepared for it so it can destroy some teams. It can find a shining spot on Sticky Web teams, but these teams are blocked by magic bounce, so they're not seen so often. Keep it on B or drop it to B-
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2016
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  35. cries in vain

    cries in vain not a prayer unsung

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    couple of points since i bumped into this and should be ok to necro b/c obv reasons

    darkrai should go to S
    it's not as splashable like some other mons but the fact that it performs it's role w/ such remarkable consistency and efficacy alone is more than fucking enough to justify s

    yveltal should drop out of a.fwiw it shouldn't even be a- it's defensive set is rly vapid/inherently lacks enough physical bulk/is bait to loads of stuff/is sr weak
    u turn on defensive sets could potentially help gain momentum and circumvent the 'being bait' issue but it'll end up missing the move it forgoes a lot of times
    offensive lo yveltal builds r inherently weak to ho oh balance and heuristically speaking have trouble vs ho as well
    while heat wave luring keys is a cool strat,the fact that u could just pivot into ho oh is disastrous for the mon and knock off is 'ok' i guess. being a m2 check could be considered a selling point but it just doesn't fit into the meta as a whole and is generally outclassed on almost any team u would consider running it on by smth else


    there is no fucking way latias deserves to be in a-
    it's terribly overvalued just b/c it has soul dew and rly doesn't have much of a place in the meta
    it can't rly handle double dance donner that well simply b/c it lacks sufficient power to do enough dmg and it also needs to shift a lot of evs into bulk and latios is just better most of the time due to it's solid as fuck damage output.ok latias is a better pogre check but thas about everything latias has over latios
    some ppl will argue that hwish is reason enough for it to be on par w/ other a- mons but most of the time hwish ends up doing nothing relevant and u'll end up wishing u had latios
    lastly it def doesn't belong in the subrank where gira o and deo a sit lol

    @ZoroDark
     
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  36. Mysterious M

    Mysterious M Dream /\ Bigger

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    OK, so after some consideration of the above opinions, i think the changes that should be made are:
    [​IMG] : A -> A-
    [​IMG]: A- -> B+
    Now regarding @Serga 's post about Kyogre, it finds me in the middle. I mean, i could see it being in A because of the reasons Serga mentioned, but imo A- is a fine place for it to be. I would like some further discussion before i make a change on that.

    On Darkrai, S rank is a bit too much. It is sure a pain for most team to face and lo darkrai has amazing coverage and power, but still i cant see it being so minor, due to its really low def.

    A change i would like to argue about is Bronzong. It usage is rising lately and it has proven itself a solid Xern check, while it can still toxic or set rocks on the switches. Therefore i could see it being B or even B+.
    [​IMG]: B- -> B or B+.

    Pretty much the same thing with Arceus-Dragon. It is a solid Pdon check, as well as Sala/Rey and other physical theats and it can also safely switch into Ho Oh. It does need more recognition so my proposal is transfering it to B+.

    [​IMG]: B- -> B+

    Lets consider the above changes before i update the thread, later this week.
     
  37. cries in vain

    cries in vain not a prayer unsung

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    not like a+ is a bad position at all but i still feel darkrai not being s is just wrong

    the fact that it restricts teambuilding like it does and also the fact that there's rly only 1 viable scarfer in oras r solid reasons to validate the jump
    ok it provides 0 defensive synergy apart from checking stuff like ghostceus/groundceus and it isn't rly the bulkiest mon but it's ridic gud speed tier+coverage+access to other niche moves and a very fast taunt+the fact that it almost always does what it's intended to make it one of the best mons in the tier
    ppl arguing against S just b/c it isn't rly splashable keep forgetting that from the 'threat level' perspective it's in a league of its own along w/ stuff like ek/xern/mence etcetera
    it's one of the few mons that u could actually antithesize as being 'overpowered' disregarding the definitions problem plaguing the ranks


    no idea bout zong and how it is in the meta but theoretically seems p decent

    dragceus is a gud mon
     
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  38. Serga

    Serga 2easy

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    Zong does what it needs to do, solid xern check and can set up sr / toxic some mons. It can also check arceus ground / diancie / some pdons / etc. However it gets walled by mega sab, which means it can't do anything.
    B+

    Dragceus is decent, but may be outclassed by other arceus formes like waterceus or fairyceus. It can check ray / sala / pdon, but can't handle two of them by itself (same as yveltal). At least it can defog tho
    B

    Darkrai is awesome tbh even if it's not splashable. A lot of teams are weak to it and it can learn thunder sludge bomb taunt etc. It is one of the mons you need to think of when teambuilding (need a sleep absorber + something to kill it when darkrai is boosted). I'm just gonna say some teams run scarf xern with moonblast and sleep talk only to check darkrai.
    S-
     
  39. cries in vain

    cries in vain not a prayer unsung

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    how is dragceus outclassed by fairyceus lol
     
  40. Lacus Clyne

    Lacus Clyne This might get unpleasant!

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    I agree with cries in vain that Darkrai should rise to S or something like S-. Darkrai is a Pokémon that you have to check no matter what which automatically makes it S rank. Even though Darkrai is only useful in Hyper Offense it's still the Pokémon you have to fear the most when you are playing against a team with him.

    Clefable to B-: It is a really good Pokémon don't get me wrong but in a meta where raw power is overflowing Clefable is kinda bad. Clefable is literally bait for every offensive Pokémon and should drop.

    Arceus-Dragon to B or B+: It's basically another Arceus-Water with a few benefits. The Judgment is great since it can take out Mega-Salamence, Rayquaza and do fair damage to things like Primal-Groudon or Ho-Oh. Pair it with Bronzong to get a decent core.

    Mega-Lopunny to C: Back at the beginning of ORAS Mega Lopunny surprised the meta but now its kinda bad. It can't switch-in well and does minimum damage. Apart of that you have to risk going for a HJK.

    Bronzong to B+: I think it should be crystal clear that this Pokémon is really good.