Before you point it out, yes, I'm aware that: "Gimmick Tiers- Most non-wifi tiers (Ubers, OU, etc.) are already lacking players, there's no need to split the player base further. If a tier idea was so great, it would already be on the server!" is in the Rejected list. Just take a look at what I have to say (write?) So hackmons is great and fun and all, but something I don't like about it is how the vast majority of mons are from Ubers. Very little mons from OU and below ( Damn you Chansey) have any scope in Hackmons, simply because they lack the stats to pull off what is needed. However, many players would like to use their favorite (or simply mons that are not ubers) in the Hackmons tier, just for fun and for trying out new combinations. So what I'm saying is, if there was a new hackmons tier (OU hackmons?) that has the standard banlist of balanced hackmons plus the OU banlist(give or take a few mons/items/abilities maybe), it would open up the opportunity for a ton of mons to shine, and players would be having a lot more fun as you are not restricted to choosing from about 10-15 mons if you want to make a successful hackmons team. (Judgment Magikarp ftw!) A possible defect of this suggestion is that soon some sets from borderline broken things in OU will dominate the meta just like how ubers do now. But maybe this can be worked around, I'm hoping the community can help out. As an addition, it would be nice to have species clause in such a metagame. Some might argue it defeats the purpose of hackmons, but running mono-mon teams is just cancer and instantly makes any game dreadful. Especially when things like 6 chansey vs 6 chansey battles happen. Call this tier BH UU (Suggested by @TraceofLife) EDIT: Great suggestions by @Fiery Espeon : Since this is a tier below Balanced Hackmons (essentially BH UU), it should follow the usage ban rule in the main tiers, i.e, all pokemon with a usage of 4% or more in BH will be banned from BH UU. There should also by a BST based ban, where all pokemon with a BST of 636 or above (635 is the BST of mega Swampert, 634 is the mega charizards) should be banned from the tier, as this will ensure all 'borderline broken' things never get a shot at overcentralising the meta, especially since hackmons just love pokemon with obscenely high BST. The above 2 rules give a rather well-defined way of creating a (possibly) stable and fun meta. So yeah, that's about it. What do you guys think? PS: This ain't on PS.
While I'm not opposed to it as a concept, I do think that tier will need a lot of work, as for abilities and many stuff when we don't have any tier leader for Hackmons ( @TraceofLife for leader y/y) The main idea of hackmons and balanced hackmons is trying to get the best from the pokemons of the game ( you could easily play imposter magikarp in Hackmons that is not a problem). But that's it, creating a new tier just to not use a few dozen of pokemon, in my eyes, is not necessary
Hackmons is incredible artificial. The tier is very hard to understand, you need to know specific move/ability/item interactions. Some of them have changed in/over Generations, and every detail can skyrocket or ruin a sets potential. The result is a low playerbase. I agree that Balanced Hackmons is very centralized, Mostly by the Mega Ubers and Pink Blobs. However everyone of the few BH players has his own ideas about how the tier should be. Some think evasion should be allowed, others want sleep clause, others want special clause, some want God Clause (Non better BST than Arceus) or ablity limitations. The result is same, the same name but tons of different fictional Metagames. Smogon had an active Gen6 Balanced Hackmons topic for over 1,5 years, when it became inactive after their first suspect test banned P-Groudon and P-Kyogre. Most players stopped playing the tier due more overcentralisation. The PO community has yet failed to learn that suspect discussions dont improve Metagames. The transition to OU Hackmons is alot harder since OU is already a subjective term. Im surprised that simple arguments bypass the significance of usuage statistics. I like the idea, but with an active playerbase of 10-20, their disagreement will stop any tier from emerge. F.e i dislike Species clause, you telling me my point of view is "cancer", hope you get the point...
@TraceofLife for Hackmons TL! BTW the tier idea seems promising but the problem of low playerbase always stands what will you do about it?
Yeah @TraceofLife for Hackmons tier leader =) About the playerbase problem, the reason why tiers are suggested is basically not to divide the playerbase further (Unless it is rather bad suggestion that somehow got implemented :o ) but to attract more players. Everyone who basically plays hackmons is likely to play such a 'Hackmons of OU' (Okay I'll take BH UU for the name) tier, plus even more players who initally didn't want to try out hackmons because of the ubers & pink blobs dominance. So the playerbase of this tier is very likely to be larger than the current hackmons playerbase. About the species clause thing, that is optional, and it's just my personal opinion that it might make the meta better. Feel free to reject that :P
Personally, I feel a BH UU/OU would not just require that "it has a OU banlist" but an interesting concept to base this off of is BST. Pokemon with high BSTs do extremely well in BH. (There are a few exceptions, Shedinja and Registeel mostly) I feel as a banlist of any Pokemon with a BST greater than 635 should be banned from "BH OU/UU". Another potential idea is basing off of BH usage. Anything above a certain percentage should be banned from the tier.
Pokemon getting banned due to usage much like how the normal main tiers function now would be really great, and fits perfectly with the normal flow of things since it this is a tier below balanced hackmons. I like the BST based ban as well, as that would ensure all the 'borderline broken' things in OU won't get a shot at overcentralising the metagame. The usage ban would also ensure things like Shedinja and Chansey/Blissey remain out of the tier. Great suggestions, I'll add them both to the op.
Bumping this. Can I get more opinions on this please? And can any administrator who has power to create/modify tiers comment on this being a possibility? (I know y'all like to see more opinions from the community before saying anything, but still...)
I post again; Summoning the little playerbase might help more than creating empty tiers. I suggest sticking with the standart Balanced Hackmons ladder, but doing a series of tours with different bansets. Something similar to the old latenighttours on Smogon; http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/the-late-night-tournament-season-2-1.59677/ 1 tour a week with 4v4 players would be great alreday. The rules should be not as drastical, however they can be used as a nice testing ground. BST clause, Mega clause, 6 unique/same abilities come into my mind. Futher actions are based on feedback. Even with the playerbase, setting the tier borders is a hard task. 4% usuage means nothing with extremely dominant pokes. I said in another topic; Any team not using M-Ray + P-Groundon + P-Kyogre + Chansey, is at a significant disadvantage. Only these 4 + 2 Mega Lati@s + 2 Mewtwo X/Y + M-Diancle, Giratina, Blissey & Shedinja form the tier. There are a few other honorable mentions but thats it. 20 pokes are usuable, because only typing and BST sets them apart These calcs shall give you a little more understanding; 252+ SpA Giratina-O Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Mega Rayquaza: 348-410 (84 - 99%) -- guaranteed 2HK0 252+ SpA Giratina-O Draco Meteor vs. +1 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Latias: 158-188 (43.4 - 51.6%) -- 9.4% chance to 2HKO Purely based on BST i would set the borders like this; Uber 681+, OU 0-680, UU 0-579.
those r silly calcs Giratina-O should be holding Griseous Orb, no? Your calcs' damage doesn't account for it. Maybe there's a better item, idk. I'm not even sure what these are showing. I don't think Mega Rayquaza is ever used as a special wall and I'm pretty sure Mega Latias would at least bother to invest some speed, maybe even run a timid nature. That's also at +1. (16:06:03) fitzyhbbe: sulcata your post in the ou balanced hackmons thread is dumb (16:06:25) fitzyhbbe: mega rayquaza isn't ran as a special wall but (16:06:31) fitzyhbbe: it still runs max ev's because it can I agree that starting a tour to test a possible rule set would be a good idea. BST might be the best place to cut it since usage is likely to fluctuate quite a bit. If usage was chosen, as soon as one poke rises, another statistically similar one would just take its place with the exact same set. I don't know where cutting the BST off would make the most sense though. A 635 cutoff would allow the Deoxys forms in, which is food for thought. Perhaps an additional limit on attacking stats would be appropriate; something like if Atk+SAtk>=300, then ban it. I don't know though since I've never tried playing OU/UU Hackmons or whatever you want to call it, Deoxys might be perfectly fine. I'm very skeptical of this of course, as if hackmons players aren't enthusiastic about it, it likely won't end up being popular and it'll just fragment the players more. Additionally tiering, bans, and adjustments to the tier would also need a tier leader. For now try setting up a forum tour and see where it goes from there.
Actually, hackmons is a tier where running less powerful pokemon is much more viable than it would be in others. First, the lack of an EV cap makes the entire meta bulkier, and helps make BST disparities less drastic than it is in tiers with ev cap. Another advantage weaker pokemon have in hackmons that they lack in some of the other tiers is the element of surprise. Unlike in other tiers, where people may to have an idea about what a pokemon tends to try to do, in hackmons any pokemon could be running almost any set. I can't stress enough what an advantage this can be in hackmons. When you only use common threats, you run the risk of you're opponent playing around you; but if you're using something they've never seen before, they are more apt to make misplays.