Hoopa-Unbound Suspect Discussion (Banned)

Discussion in 'Gen 6 Discussion' started by Finchinator, Aug 15, 2015.

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  1. Purpleseamonkey

    Purpleseamonkey PO Alt: y0

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    Basically HF helps with mega scizor and most bulky mons. It allows you to 2hko standard hippo. The scarfer set and physically based definitely want the 2hko/protect blasting power of 100 bp stab. Knock off would be good on most things but hoopas power is such that it's irrelevant to cripple switch ins when it can just kill them.
     
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2015
  2. pokemonnerd

    pokemonnerd Only uso listens to pnerd. Devo too. Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    Which is why hyperspace fury and most purely physical sets of hoopa seem irrelevant. It's like taking Kyurem-b, switching its best attacking stat then make its other almost as strong, and unlike the dragon it has tons of moves to use with both. Hippo needs max/max to barely avoid a 2HKO at full health to dark pulse and loses anyway to knock off then pulse, mega scizor fares just as "well," and without the defense drop it allows it to win against both regardless, especially since scizor has no recovery with the turn it uses protect. If it does use it for some reason or another because I just noticed I read your post partly wrong. It feels like a giant waste of a moveslot unless you use the scarf set.

    And honestly I haven't bothered using purely physical hoopa but the special/mixed, non-choiced sets are just so damn good and can be burned without fear of being crippled in damage output.
     
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2015
  3. Spoovo The Pirate

    Spoovo The Pirate Meep! Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    I can see the benefits of both. Hyperspace Fury definitely has more reliable power, and like Willdbeast said, fucks up anything trying to hide behind Protect. Knock Off has the utility however, and doesn't lower Hoopa's Defence after usage.
     
  4. sulcata

    sulcata stéphane curry best waifu Forum Moderator Server Administrator Forum Moderator Server Administrator

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    I agree that they both have utility, but Hyperspace Fury's ability to go through Protect isn't super relevant with the primary users, Ferrothorn, Gliscor, Sylveon, etc. not really caring about Hyperspace Fury at all (they're all hit hard by the appropriate coverage anyway). On a mixed set Dark Pulse or Knock Off are both much better. On a physical scarf set I think Hyperspace Fury fits the role much better, even with 160/170 offenses, it's still awkward to allocate EVs. If you're Scarf you usually don't need to worry about going mixed anyway since you're looking to revenge something offensive and less defensive more often than not.
     
  5. Oh So Penspin

    Oh So Penspin Hail RNGesus, our Lord and Saviour!

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    Hyperspace Fury is so spammable in general, as there are barely any bulky Dark-resists in OU that can immediately threaten Hoopa after tanking one HF. It's just a no-risk option that will always deal a good amount of damage. The def drop isn't too relevent imo; you die to any physical hit anyway.

    @pokemonnerd Try a physical set with HF/Drain Punch/Gunk Shot/Sub @ Life Orb. It demolishes stall.
     
  6. sulcata

    sulcata stéphane curry best waifu Forum Moderator Server Administrator Forum Moderator Server Administrator

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    How does it demolish stall with a purely physical set? I doubt it breaks Skarmory. Probably doesn't break Quagsire either, but idk. I think a mixed set with Dark Pulse > Hyperspace Fury and Energy Ball or some random coverage move > Sub works a lot better.

    I've still got Hyperspace Fury as physical on my calc btw. I'll be updating it soon.
     
  7. Cameltoed

    Cameltoed Excadrill gira

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    Hyperspace Fury also hits mega pokemons (like Scizor and Charizard) and mons whose item was also knocked off more powerful
     
  8. Oh So Penspin

    Oh So Penspin Hail RNGesus, our Lord and Saviour!

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    You're right, I meant balance :v It's also good vs offense if you can get it in, because barely anything on those teams can take 2 hits from Hoopa.
     
  9. Dominique-XLR

    Dominique-XLR I'm a simple man. I see boobs, I like.

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    Hype Fury (get it?) has its use against megas, in which case its much stronger, making it much more spamable. I'm not saying one is better than the other, but both possess significant merit.

    184 Atk Life Orb Hoopa-U Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Slowbro: 148-174 (37.5 - 44.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
    184 Atk Life Orb Hoopa-U Hyperspace Fury vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Slowbro: 226-268 (57.3 - 68%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    184 Atk Life Orb Hoopa-U Knock Off vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Charizard Y: 188-224 (63.2 - 75.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    184 Atk Life Orb Hoopa-U Hyperspace Fury vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Charizard Y: 290-343 (97.6 - 115.4%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO

    184 Atk Life Orb Hoopa-U Knock Off vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Diancie: 70-84 (29 - 34.8%) -- 100% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
    184 Atk Life Orb Hoopa-U Hyperspace Fury vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Diancie: 109-129 (45.2 - 53.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (Not very effective lol)

    @sulcata Hyperspace fury prolly 2hkos Quag with LO and 184 atk evs.

    184 Atk Life Orb Hoopa-U Hyperspace Fury vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 191-226 (48.4 - 57.3%) -- 93.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

    Also are you saying Hyperspace fury isn't physical?
     
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2015
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  10. sulcata

    sulcata stéphane curry best waifu Forum Moderator Server Administrator Forum Moderator Server Administrator

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    Sorry, about that. *still Special. I meant that I have to change it to Physical.

    Was there supposed to be an HF calc for Mega Diancie? In Mega Slowbro's case I'd rather have Dark Pulse, unless this is a full physical set.

    "(97.6 - 115.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO"
    Is that my calc acting up or Honko's +rocks?
     
  11. willdbeast

    willdbeast All round nice guy

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    One example of knockoff being useful is vs chansey which my 252att hoopa couldn't kill with fury or drain punch (and I died to toxic before a crit or soft boiled ran out) whereas after knockoff it easily does more than the 50% healing. (I am unsure of chansey set but I suspect max HP/def bold or similar) Edit:relevance it can beat chansey/ bliss
     
  12. Dominique-XLR

    Dominique-XLR I'm a simple man. I see boobs, I like.

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    oh yeah thanks, fixed. It was supposed to show a savage calc of how Hyperfury 2hkos Mega Diancie with that spread. Also you are right about the rocks part.

    Of course Megabro takes shit ton more from Dark pulse, but even in case of mixed set you might wanna run hyperspace fury since it is your strongest move against neutral opponent.

    It's interesting to note that both LO Dark Pulse and Hyperspace Fury 2hkos Bisharp after rocks :v . Thank god this thing doesn't have 120 bp stabs.
     
  13. sulcata

    sulcata stéphane curry best waifu Forum Moderator Server Administrator Forum Moderator Server Administrator

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    Hoopa-B @ Life Orb
    Trait: Magician
    EVs: 32 HP / 180 Atk / 104 SAtk / 192 Spd
    Lonely Nature (+Atk, -Def)
    - Dark Pulse
    - Drain Punch
    - Gunk Shot
    - Energy Ball

    Is the set I've been running. The HP isn't super important and 20 of those SAtk EVs can be moved elsewhere (speed creeping or boosting attack). Outspeeds +speed unmega'd Tyranitar. I'm only running Energy Ball since my team particularly dislikes dealing with Quagsire and Rotom-W. Another Dark stab, sub, or some other coverage probably fits most other teams much better. Drain Punch almost guarantees an 2HKO on Chansey without prior damage, with rocks or any chip damage it's guaranteed.

    180+ Atk Life Orb Hoopa-B Drain Punch vs. 252 HP/252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 348 - 411 (49.4 - 58.4%) -- 98.4% chance to 2HKO
    I personally think a Lonely nature is really important if you're running a wall breaking set to increase damage output on Pokemon. The difference between +Atk and neutral is pretty huge since it's stats are extremely high to begin with.

    252 Atk Life Orb Hoopa-B Drain Punch vs. 252 HP/252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 330 - 390 (46.9 - 55.4%) -- 74.2% chance to 2HKO
    You either got unlucky or aren't running Life Orb @willdbeast

    Well, I guess this post up until now hasn't really said a whole lot about what I think of Hoopa-B in the meta as much as it did potential sets. Once it gets in v. balance or stall there are basically no answers. At best there's Mandibuzz, which counters pretty hard (unless you run something weird like toxic). Offense has a bit of an easier time keeping up since most things can outspeed and target Hoopa-B's subpar defense stat. The reason Hoopa-B is so detrimental to balance and stall is that these teams usually lack moves to OHKO Hoopa-B, while it can pick apart key Pokemon with near impunity. On the special side, it's actually really bulky, being able to live things like a Life Orb Draco Meteor from Latios without any investment, which is actually pretty scary when you're backed up with practically two Kyurem-B level attacking stats and Dark STAB.

    Lest someone misconstrue what's been said I here, I'm not claiming Hoopa-B is some crazy special wall or something stupid like that. Simply that its defensive stats are incredibly disproportionate to its insane offensive capabilities. It's essentially a Kyurem-B with an equally good secondary attacking stat, a usable movepool, and arguably better STABs.
     
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  14. Oh So Penspin

    Oh So Penspin Hail RNGesus, our Lord and Saviour!

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    252+ SpA Hoopa Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 108 SpD Mandibuzz: 226-266 (53.4 - 62.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

    Thunderbolt is a vey niche option, but it hits Skarm, Mandibuzz and some other misc pokemon in 1 slot. Could replace Energy Ball on your set, if Quag/Rotom aren't much of a problem ;v
     
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  15. willdbeast

    willdbeast All round nice guy

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    Ah yeah mine was a mixed AV set with drain punch, knock off, gunk shot and psychic which doesn't wall break as well but survives a hell of a lot of special moves.
     
  16. Haze Victory

    Haze Victory Dem slumps..~

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    On topic - Does this discussion really need to go on for 2 weeks?
    Atm we've come to a point where we're creating innovative gen 6 sets and debating knock off vs HF. This is funny coz we all realize how most of the sets we mention here are incredibly viable in themselves. The anti-ban community as well seems to be next to absent. Lol, by far the most boring suspect discussion I have participated in.
     
    Last edited: Aug 28, 2015
  17. Edna

    Edna Chasing the Dragon Forum Moderator Forum Moderator

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    Banning from OU is more complex than lower tiers since it's the most played tier and it affects a lot the metagame. Anti-ban might just be trying stuff and finding universal counters.

    After playing many playstyle bar stall recently, I've had hard time dealing with Hoopa bar with Hyper Offense.
    Klefki is a nice check( that thing checks a ton of stuff), can cripple with twave, deals a lot with Play rough. However repeated switch will cripple it severly, to the point the most reliable set would be Rest talk cm lol

    Atm i'm leaning toward ban, because of the huge impact it has right now, and the lack of reliable counters
     
  18. pokemonnerd

    pokemonnerd Only uso listens to pnerd. Devo too. Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    No, it really doesn't and I'm sure a super majority who could be qualified to vote here would ban it. But we have rules and such so this is going to go on for a little bit. Might as well argue about how much "better" certain sets are than others if no one is going to come up with good and logical posts about hoopa not being broken, right?
     
  19. Haze Victory

    Haze Victory Dem slumps..~

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    I wouldn't mind it. Thing's gonna get banned anyway from what I assume, so it wouldn't harm to do so. We might as well open up a flaw or two for the anti-ban side to dwell on.
    I'd debate on Energy ball being a rather useful move as it ohko'es Rotom-W even on the mixed set.
    Using 170 base SAtk to simulate Hoopa-B -

    128+ SpA Life Orb Hoopa Energy Ball vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W: 304-359 (100.3 - 118.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    This is especially useful considering the standard Rotom in Ou carries Wisp and that it no longer misses as much as it used to.
     
  20. Dominique-XLR

    Dominique-XLR I'm a simple man. I see boobs, I like.

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    I'd say Thunderbolt is the best fourth coverage move if you are not running two stabs since mandi is the closest thing to a counter that exists. Foul play ohkos hoopa after rocks, and no-other move guarantees a 2hko on Mandi without rocks on the mixed set. Also rotom/quag all gets 2hkod by whatever dark stab you are running.
     
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  21. willdbeast

    willdbeast All round nice guy

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    From my experience of using Hoopa-b all you need to avoid all of its checks is something like a tankchomp that easily survives and punishes uturns or foul plays and any checks to hoopa are dead after 2 switch ins and some recoil. Pursuit prevents this but afaik drain punch beats all common pusuiters in OU and 252+ speed hoopa out speeds them which sort of amounts to having no checks. (Correct me if I am mistaken on any of this)
     
  22. sulcata

    sulcata stéphane curry best waifu Forum Moderator Server Administrator Forum Moderator Server Administrator

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    I wouldn't really use Garchomp as my go-to Foul Play switch-in, but as a U-Turn absorber it works quite nicely with Hoopa-B, wearing down checks like Lando-T.

    Pursuit isn't exactly the best move for trapping/checking Hoopa-B, as even with low physical bulk it's still neutral. If it stays in you do a puny amount of damage and end up getting smacked. The only real Pursuit users that Hoopa-B would need to switch out from are Scizor and Weavile, the latter of the two obviously dying if it's outpredicted. Weavile's Pursuit only has a chance to OHKO Hoopa-B, in addition to the risk of the opponent not switching, while Scizor misses out on an OHKO (all this assumes -Def without any defensive investment too).
     
  23. AnuncioBot

    AnuncioBot Tome muito líquido!

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    Even if Hoopa-B has a bad Def, Garchomp and Ferrothorn are two of the most used Pokémon and help with a large passive damage.
    Remembering that even having a brutal power, Hoopa-B does not take mega Slot.
     
  24. Oh So Penspin

    Oh So Penspin Hail RNGesus, our Lord and Saviour!

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  25. TraceofLife

    TraceofLife Lucky Strike

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    just my 2 cent, i believe Hoopa-B should be banned

    yes sure it has 4MSS, but it doesn't stop it being a good sweeper, it has a perfect coverage on both Special and Physical side, it also boasts monstrous offense
    Hoopa-B also completely destroys Stall and probably balance. yes, it has terrible Defense stat but it's Special Defense is actually decent. being able to take a Draco Meteor from lati@s is gr8. Hoopa-B also has Nasty Plot to set up it's Special Attack, ngl, i think this is the most broken ou mon rn.
     
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  26. AnuncioBot

    AnuncioBot Tome muito líquido!

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    Any decision?
     
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  27. TraceofLife

    TraceofLife Lucky Strike

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    our OU overlord @MetalGross please make decision kthx
     
  28. Haze Victory

    Haze Victory Dem slumps..~

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    Rip.
    (^Some say this may be spam. I say, the TL's ain't gonna check).
     
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  29. MetalGross

    MetalGross gems…

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    well finch quit and i really dont want to make this decision on my own
     
  30. Purpleseamonkey

    Purpleseamonkey PO Alt: y0

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    make another tier leader or council
    or we could just vote
    as long as there's action
     
  31. Funbot28

    Funbot28 Active Member

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    Think the best course of action is to perform a community vote, with players who have experience by proving with ladder points
     
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  32. AnuncioBot

    AnuncioBot Tome muito líquido!

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    I agree. Several people have already given their views on the experience with Hoopa-B in the metagame. This suspect-discussion is over a month, and other things that can be discussed as Shadow Tag and Baton Pass.
     
  33. Ortheore

    Ortheore One beautiful monster

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    Hasn't this thread reached a consensus? I'm not sure there was a single credible anti-ban argument, do we really need a vote?
     
  34. OUAzumarill

    OUAzumarill Active Member

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    IIRC, the best anti-ban argument by far was "it's only pretty good against HO"
     
  35. styler

    styler Pichu lover

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    @MetalGross just ban the shit already i wanted it to stay originally but its obvious its op and everyone think so
     
  36. Edna

    Edna Chasing the Dragon Forum Moderator Forum Moderator

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    If you read well it was the exact opposite lol.
    Wouldn't mind it staying as well
     
  37. Haze Victory

    Haze Victory Dem slumps..~

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    If the decision isn't made, then there seems to have been no value on the arguments of those participating in this suspect discussion. The arguments are pretty obvious here and I am sure it wouldn't take more than a single read through to come to the conclusion of banning Hoopa.
    Also, we don't need a vote. The suspect has been argued on extensively. Moreover there aren't any conflicting views on the suspect other than what's better between Knock off and Hyperspace fury, lmao.
     
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2015
  38. Oh So Penspin

    Oh So Penspin Hail RNGesus, our Lord and Saviour!

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    While the best action, it is also sadly unviable due to a limited playerbase.

    I highly second this. A council with players from different fields (laddering, #Tournaments and forums for example) would me amazing, as then the decision is made from different viewpoints.
     
  39. pokemonnerd

    pokemonnerd Only uso listens to pnerd. Devo too. Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    Not one person who knows what they're talking about has disagreed on hoopa-b and it's not like there's been much discussion otherwise. Now it switched from "foul play vs hyperspace fury" to "hey we should really find a way to end this suspect."

    Just fucking ban it @MetalGross, not everything needs a council to decide on it. And we can make a council later, but it's nonsensical to delay this any further.
     
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  40. Oh So Penspin

    Oh So Penspin Hail RNGesus, our Lord and Saviour!

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    Tbh it should be banned, but I'm with Carl: I wouldn't mind it staying :v
     
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