Endless Battle Clause

Discussion in 'Simulator Suggestions' started by Lutra, Jul 21, 2015.

  1. Lutra

    Lutra All Gen Battler/Scripter

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    Endless Battle Clause - a clause to auto-draw in certain situations:

    Basically this clause is to prevent players from not accepting a draw situation.

    For RBY:
    • Continuous switching (e.g. the optimum move for both players is to make a series of switches continously, not just both sides consecutively switching and waiting for a moment to strike)
    • Transform vs Transform [Mimic vs Mimic] ditto (e.g. Transform Mew vs Transform Mew in RBY Ubers, continuous 5PP)
    • Rage Miss vs Rage Miss ditto (e.g. 1/256 hitting on both sides) - rage miss is causing my client to crash btw.
    • Struggle/Normal-type PP overflow vs Ghosts (e.g. both sides receiving no damage from struggle, as could happen with Gengars in RBY metronome, or switching between ghosts to prolong the match) - generalise to too much/infinite pp attacks vs immune types I guess.
    It gets more complicated in later gens: such as lefties outpacing struggle damage and various pp restoration combinations (from gen 3 onward), albeit without the RBY bugs.

    Edit: expanded on the cases a bit.
     
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2015
    Ortheore and Disaster Area like this.
  2. sulcata

    sulcata stéphane curry best waifu Forum Moderator Server Administrator Forum Moderator Server Administrator

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    Continuous switching would probably cause more trouble than it's worth if it were coded in. It'd likely get quite a few false positives which would lead to really mad players. If necessary a TO could flip a coin or tell them to rematch. In the case of the ladder, moderators can and should force players to draw if someone points out one of these situations.

    idk about Transform v. Transform, but I don't think Rage really matters with how... unused it is. Especially when you consider that you need both pokemon to first miss it. I wonder if I was the one who broke rage... are you using 2.6.0 or higher?

    Not sure about the last bullet, but the first thing I said seems to also apply here.

    The restrictions on endless battles that we have now should be, in my opinion, limited to situations which players can commonly try for it as a means of harassing other players or trying to get them to forfeit.
     
  3. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Badged Deucer

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    50 turns continuous switching is unlikely to be indicative of anything other than an endless battle. Even in GSC? Is it abusable in GSC??

    Rage should be fixed but ye it's basically irrelevant

    transform needs further discussion because it's very relevant on mew in ubers. I've seen multiple games tieing because of it, however mew vs mew with transform as lastmons is the only one I guess the server can cover, unless you do an outright ban of the move to prevent scenarios where switching is a bad idea (Lutra can defo get logs if u want, I might even have a couple, of games where both players have transform mew in and other pokemon available, but either player switching puts them in a losing position).

    I guess it's a different approach to the clause - it's not one side aggravating the other, it's both sides ending up in a scenario where it will never end due to the actions of both players, in a competitive scenario, rather than people harrassing 10 year old newbies on the ladder.
     
  4. Lutra

    Lutra All Gen Battler/Scripter

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    The continuous switching is a bit of a balancing act to get right, but I think a warning message after 10 turns of both sides switching (or more) is okay. Then do a message every turn, warning you can't do 5 switches consecutively or something (or x turns switching in y turns). If you code it like it that, there's no possibility of bugs.

    I am indeed using the latest client. I think covering all scenarios with a mechanical endbattle clause matters in the same way perfect mechanics matters. The idea is the endbattle clause won't effect the mechanics (other than denying harmful repetition) and be something almost necessary like the timer, the HP Bar, synchronisation, and RNG mods.

    Pokémon Showdown! is trying to cover all cases anyway.
     
  5. sulcata

    sulcata stéphane curry best waifu Forum Moderator Server Administrator Forum Moderator Server Administrator

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    15 switches is sorta limited. It would definitely have to be a clause. Even then I don't see the point behind it.

    Rage isn't really a "fix" thing. If players are dumb enough to both bring rage, then \o/
    I guess my point here is not to try to fix dumb choices.

    Why does Transform Mew not carry other moves in Ubers?

    RNG mods? I personally don't like the idea of the HP bar, but it's been around for so long that taking it away would greatly annoy and confuse players. Not quite sure what "RNG mods" means, but it doesn't sound like something super necessary.

    50 turns is probably a little high. It's a very rare situation that can be handled by TOs by defining rules beforehand. I don't think I've been in such a situation ever. The Beds v. Tiba(?) scenario was pretty niche and imo it was pretty stupid that he wasn't forced to go for the ttar crunches, etc. But I digress, TOs and moderators are more than capable of handling these scenarios without modifying battle mechanics.
     
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2015
  6. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Badged Deucer

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    transform mew carries other moves but when you transform you get 5 PP of all the opp's move and you never can burn all the PP (standard transform set is twave reflect transform softboiled). RNG mods probably refers to using the sim's own random number generation than using what the cartridge uses.