ORAS OU Viability Rankings

Discussion in 'Gen 6 Discussion' started by Finchinator, Jun 19, 2015.

  1. Finchinator

    Finchinator IT’S FINK DUMBASS

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    Hello and welcome to the ORAS OU Viability Rankings. The following list is based off of the old OU Viability Rankings with a few changes to reflect the current metagame. Feel free to logically debate the positions of pokemon within this thread; however, your opinion must be justified by reasoning. If you post poorly, you will be subject to a warning and if it occurs multiple times, you will be subject to an infraction. If you feel that you lack sufficient knowledge, don't post just for the sake of posting as it is unnecessary to do so. If you feel that you have something valuable to contribute to the discussion, then go for it, but post wisely.

    ---

    S Rank: S Rank is reserved for Pokemon who are extremely threatening and impact the metagame in a major way. These Pokemon can either fulfill a variety of roles or are superlative in performing one task on a team.

    [TABLE]
    [TD1][​IMG] Altaria (Mega)[/TD1]
    [TD1][​IMG] Clefable[/TD1]
    [TD1][​IMG] Charizard (Mega X)[/TD1][TD1]
    [/TD1][/TABLE][TD1]

    ---

    A Rank: A Rank Pokemon generally perform very well in the tier, but have some minor flaws that prevent them from fulfilling their roles consistently. Although threatening, they usually require a bit more team support than S-Rank Mons.

    A+
    [TABLE][TR][TD1]
    [​IMG] Azumarill[/TD1][TD1]
    [​IMG] Bisharp[/TD1][TD1]
    [​IMG] Diancie (Mega)[/TD1][TD1]
    [​IMG] Garchomp (Base)[/TD1][/TR][TR][TD1]
    [​IMG] Gengar[/TD1][TD1]
    [​IMG] Gyarados (Mega)[/TD1][TD1]
    [​IMG] Heatran[/TD1][TD1]
    [​IMG] Keldeo[/TD1][TD1]
    [​IMG] Landorus-T[/TD1][/TR][TR][TD1]
    [​IMG]Latias (Base)[/TD1][TD1]
    [​IMG] Latios (Base)[/TD1][TD1]
    [​IMG] Lopunny (Mega)[/TD1][TD1]
    [​IMG] Manaphy[/TD1][TD1]
    [​IMG] Sableye (Mega)[/TD1][/TR][TR][TD1]
    [​IMG] Scizor (Mega)[/TD1][TD1]
    [​IMG] Talonflame[/TD1][TD1]
    [​IMG] Thundurus[/TD1][TD1]
    [​IMG] Tornadus-T[/TD1][/TR][/TABLE]

    A
    [TABLE][TR][TD1]
    [​IMG] Alakazam (Mega)[/TD1][TD1]
    [​IMG] Charizard (Mega Y)[/TD1][TD1]
    [​IMG] Excadrill[/TD1][TD1]
    [​IMG] Ferrothorn[/TD1][TD1]
    [​IMG] Gardevoir (Mega)[/TD1][/TR][TR][TD1]
    [​IMG] Hippowdon[/TD1][TD1]
    [​IMG] Kyurem-B[/TD1][TD1]
    [​IMG] Manectric (Mega)[/TD1][TD1]
    [​IMG] Rotom-W[/TD1][TD1]
    [​IMG]Slowbro (Base)[/TD1][/TR][TR][TD1]
    [​IMG] Tyranitar (Base)[/TD1][TD1]
    [​IMG] Venusaur (Mega)[/TD1][TD1]
    [​IMG] Weavile[/TD1][/TR][/TABLE]

    A-
    [TABLE][TR][TD1]
    [​IMG] Aerodactyl (Mega)[/TD1][TD1]
    [​IMG] Alakazam (Base)[/TD1][TD1]
    [​IMG]Celebi[/TD1][TD1]
    [​IMG] Dragonite[/TD1][TD1]
    [​IMG] Gallade (Mega)[/TD1][/TR][TR][TD1]
    [​IMG] Gliscor[/TD1][TD1]
    [​IMG] Heracross (Mega)[/TD1][TD1]
    [​IMG] Jirachi[/TD1][TD1]
    [​IMG] Klefki[/TD1][TD1]
    [​IMG] Latias (Mega)[/TD1][/TR][TR][TD1]
    [​IMG] Magnezone[/TD1][TD1]
    [​IMG] Mew[/TD1][TD1]
    [​IMG] Pinsir (Mega)[/TD1][TD1]
    [​IMG] Politoed[/TD1][TD1]
    [​IMG] Raikou[/TD1][/TR][TR][TD1]
    [​IMG] Skarmory[/TD1][TD1]
    [​IMG] Slowbro (Mega)[/TD1][TD1]
    [​IMG] Starmie[/TD1][TD1]
    [​IMG] Terrakion[/TD1][TD1]
    [​IMG] Volcarona[/TD1][/TR][/TABLE]

    ---

    B Rank: B Rank Pokemon usually have some sort of major flaw that prevents them from being a more common presence in the tier. However, they still are able to perform their roles very well with proper team support.

    B+
    [TABLE][TR][TD1]
    [​IMG] Beedrill (Mega)[/TD1][TD1]
    [​IMG] Breloom[/TD1][TD1]
    [​IMG] Crawdaunt[/TD1][TD1]
    [​IMG] Diggersby[/TD1][TD1]
    [​IMG] Feraligatr[/TD1][/TR][TR][TD1]
    [​IMG] Hawlucha[/TD1][TD1]
    [​IMG] Kabutops[/TD1][TD1]
    [​IMG] Kingdra[/TD1][TD1]
    [​IMG] Mamoswine[/TD1][TD1]
    [​IMG] Medicham (Mega)[/TD1][/TR][TR][TD1]
    [​IMG] Serperior[/TD1][TD1]
    [​IMG] Slowking[/TD1][TD1]
    [​IMG] Suicune[/TD1][TD1]
    [​IMG] Swampert (Mega)[/TD1][TD1]
    [​IMG] Victini[/TD1][/TR][/TABLE]

    B
    [TABLE][TR][TD1]
    [​IMG] Chansey[/TD1][TD1]
    [​IMG]Chesnaught[/TD1][TD1]
    [​IMG] Gothitelle[/TD1][TD1]
    [​IMG] Gyarados[/TD1][/TR][TR][TD1]
    [​IMG] Hydreigon[/TD1][TD1]
    [​IMG] Quagsire[/TD1][TD1]
    [​IMG] Sceptile (Mega)[/TD1][TD1]
    [​IMG] Scizor[/TD1][/TR][TR][TD1]
    [​IMG] Scolipede[/TD1][TD1]
    [​IMG] Sharpedo (Mega)[/TD1][TD1]
    [​IMG] Tangrowth[/TD1][TD1]
    [​IMG] Tyranitar (Mega)[/TD1][/TR][/TABLE]

    B-
    [TABLE][TR][TD1]
    [​IMG] Alomomola[/TD1][TD1]
    [​IMG] Amoonguss[/TD1][TD1]
    [​IMG] Cobalion[/TD1][TD1]
    [​IMG] Conkeldurr[/TD1][TD1]
    [​IMG] Empoleon[/TD1][/TR][TR][TD1]
    [​IMG] Garchomp (Mega)[/TD1][TD1]
    [​IMG] Infernape[/TD1][TD1]
    [​IMG] Lucario (Base)[/TD1][TD1]
    [​IMG] Mandibuzz[/TD1][TD1]
    [​IMG] Omastar[/TD1][/TR][TR][TD1]
    [​IMG] Rhyperior[/TD1][TD1]
    [​IMG] Sylveon[/TD1][TD1]
    [​IMG] Tentacruel[/TD1][TD1]
    [​IMG] Thundurus-T[/TD1][TD1]
    [​IMG] Togekiss[/TD1][/TR][TR][TD1]
    [​IMG] Toxicroak[/TD1][TD1]
    [​IMG] Zapdos[/TD1][/TR][/TABLE]

    ---

    C Rank: C Rank Pokemon have notable niches in the metagame, but usually require significant support. These Pokemon face competition for their roles from the higher ranked Pokemon, but can find still find use.

    C+
    [TABLE][TR][TD1]
    [​IMG] Azelf[/TD1][TD1]
    [​IMG] Blastoise (Mega)[/TD1][TD1]
    [​IMG] Cresselia[/TD1][TD1]
    [​IMG] Entei[/TD1][/TR][TR][TD1]
    [​IMG] Gastrodon[/TD1][TD1]
    [​IMG] Kyurem[/TD1][TD1]
    [​IMG] Houndoom (Mega)[/TD1][TD1]
    [​IMG] Latios (Mega)[/TD1][/TR][TR][TD1]
    [​IMG] Pidgeot (Mega)[/TD1][TD1]
    [​IMG] Seismitoad[/TD1][TD1]
    [​IMG] Staraptor[/TD1][/TR][/TABLE]

    C
    [TABLE][TR][TD1]
    [​IMG] Abomasnow (Mega)[/TD1][TD1]
    [​IMG] Absol (Mega)[/TD1][TD1]
    [​IMG] Ampharos (Mega)[/TD1][TD1]
    [​IMG] Blissey[/TD1][TD1]
    [​IMG] Chandelure[/TD1][TD1]
    [​IMG] Cloyster[/TD1][/TR][TR][TD1]
    [​IMG] Cofagrigus[/TD1][TD1]
    [​IMG] Emboar[/TD1][TD1]
    [​IMG] Froslass[/TD1][TD1]
    [​IMG] Goodra[/TD1][TD1]
    [​IMG] Gorebyss[/TD1][TD1]
    [​IMG] Heracross (Base)[/TD1][/TR][TR][TD1]
    [​IMG] Krookodile[/TD1][TD1]
    [​IMG] Magneton[/TD1][TD1]
    [​IMG] Metagross (Base)[/TD1][TD1]
    [​IMG] Nidoking[/TD1][TD1]
    [​IMG] Porygon2[/TD1][TD1]
    [​IMG] Roserade[/TD1][/TR][TR][TD1]
    [​IMG] Rotom-H[/TD1][TD1]
    [​IMG] Sableye (Base)[/TD1][TD1]
    [​IMG] Shuckle[/TD1][/TR][/TABLE]

    C-
    [TABLE][TR][TD1]
    [​IMG] Aggron (Mega)[/TD1][TD1]
    [​IMG] Arcanine[/TD1][TD1]
    [​IMG] Banette (Mega)[/TD1][TD1]
    [​IMG] Camerupt (Mega)[/TD1][TD1]
    [​IMG] Bronzong[/TD1][/TR][TR][TD1]
    [​IMG] Doublade[/TD1][TD1]
    [​IMG] Dugtrio[/TD1][TD1]
    [​IMG] Exploud[/TD1][TD1]
    [​IMG] Forretress[/TD1][TD1]
    [​IMG] Gourgeist-XL[/TD1][/TR][TR][TD1]
    [​IMG] Haxorus[/TD1][TD1]
    [​IMG] Honchkrow[/TD1][TD1]
    [​IMG] Jellicent[/TD1][TD1]
    [​IMG] Meloetta[/TD1][TD1]
    [​IMG] Mienshao[/TD1][/TR][TR][TD1]
    [​IMG]Moltres[/TD1][TD1]
    [​IMG] Ninetales[/TD1][TD1]
    [​IMG] Noivern[/TD1][TD1]
    [​IMG] Salamence (Base)[/TD1][TD1]
    [​IMG] Smeargle[/TD1][/TR][TR][TD1]
    [​IMG] Shaymin[/TD1][TD1]
    [​IMG] Wobbuffet[/TD1][TD1]
    [​IMG] Zygarde[/TD1][/TR][/TABLE]

    ---

    D Rank: D Rank Pokemon either have an extremely small niche in the tier, or are generally outclassed by higher-ranked Pokemon in a majority of circumstances.

    [TABLE][TR][TD1]
    [​IMG] Diancie (Base)[/TD1][TD1]
    [​IMG] Ditto[/TD1][TD1]
    [​IMG] Donphan[/TD1][TD1]
    [​IMG] Espeon[/TD1][TD1]
    [​IMG] Florges[/TD1][/TR][TR][TD1]
    [​IMG] Galvantula[/TD1][TD1]
    [​IMG] Gardevoir (Base)[/TD1][TD1]
    [​IMG] Glalie (Mega)[/TD1][TD1]
    [​IMG] Heliolisk[/TD1][TD1]
    [​IMG] Lanturn[/TD1][/TR][TR][TD1]
    [​IMG] Ludicolo[/TD1][TD1]
    [​IMG] Machamp[/TD1][TD1]
    [​IMG] Nidoqueen[/TD1][TD1]
    [​IMG] Pangoro[/TD1][TD1]
    [​IMG] Shedninja[/TD1][/TR][TR][TD1]
    [​IMG]Slurpuff[/TD1][TD1]
    [​IMG] Swampert (Base)[/TD1][TD1]
    [​IMG] Steelix (Mega)[/TD1][TD1]
    [​IMG] Tornadus-I[/TD1][TD1]
    [​IMG] Vaporeon[/TD1][/TR][TR][TD1]
    [​IMG] Venomoth[/TD1][TD1]
    [​IMG] Venusaur (Base)[/TD1][TD1]
    [​IMG]Virizion[/TD1][TD1]
    [​IMG]Weezing[/TD1][TD1]
    [​IMG] Whimsicott[/TD1][/TR][TR][TD1]
    [​IMG]Xatu[/TD1][TD1]
    [​IMG]Yanmega[/TD1][TD1]
    [​IMG] Zoroark[/TD1][/TR][/TABLE]

    ---

    Blacklist: A special ranking for the pokemon that are widely believed to be viable or see fair usage, but aren't actually viable, nor practical to use due to being entirely obsoleted, plain bad, or a variety of other reasons.

    ---


    Saved until pokemon not worth discussing are brought up and then placed here (resets for every new thread).[/td1]
     
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2015
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  2. OUAzumarill

    OUAzumarill Active Member

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    First off, amazing job. You've made a lot of changes that I personally was almost dying to see made (such as a raising of Thundy-T, Torn-T, Klefki, and Hippo) and added a lot of sorely needed pokes like the Nidos, Lord Feral, Emboar, and Slurpuff.

    Now, as for my suggestions:

    Mega Garde: I still think this thing is easily A+ material. It's a solid offensive check to a lot of top tier threats like Keldeo, Mega Gallade, Mega Altaria, and the Lati Twins, and its two STABs combined with Focus Miss, Shadow Ball, or HP Fire can just dismantle all but the most well built and played stall teams.

    Gothitelle: This thing should definitely be in an A rank. Between its Scarf, Specs, and CM Rest sets, it can and will destroy virtually wall, cleric, or pivot that hampers your favorite sweeper's path. It's only gotten better and better with the increasing decline of Megaeye'e popularity, as it is the only defensive poke that can handle all three sets.

    Mega Chomp: I'd argue this thing is too high. It seems like the only reason you'd ever want to use it over its normal form is for the purposes of a wallbreaker, at which I'd argue that most of its fellow ground-types, dragon types, and hard hitting megas all outclass it. C+ seems like a perfect spot for it IMO.

    I'm also wondering why Xatu and Espeon are in the same rank. Almost every time I've ever considered using the bird, I look over it and Espeon seems like a better choice. It has SIGNIFICANTLY better stats everywhere but physical bulk, isn't weak to SR, and requires far less team support to function. I'd personally argue that Xatu belongs on the blacklist, but Espeon moving up to C- is acceptable as well.

    And one Poke that is not on the list that I think should be is Tyrantrum. It hits stupid hard with its Banded set, its RP sets are amazing at cleaning up late game, and its DD set can take a bit of both. It has amazing coverage regardless of which set it takes, usually being Head Smash, Outrage/Dragon Claw, and EQ, with some other viable options being elemental fangs, Poison Fang, Crunch, or Aerial Ace. It also has the bulk to run an SR set that is set apart from its competition by its unique typing and above average speed. I would argue at least a spot in C+/- would be a nice spot for it.

    EDIT: Also, this is more out of curiosity than necessarily disagreement, but why is Moltres listed? I personally can't see why you would use it over ZardY, Torn-T, MegaBird, Volc, or Tran, but I would love to hear an explanation, as firebird is one of my pet pokes.
     
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2015
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  3. Funbot28

    Funbot28 Active Member

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    The listing look good so far, here are some proposals that I believe should be implemented.

    [​IMG] Mega Charizard X: A+ ---> S
    With access to great Fire/Dragon typing, and the ability to setup and demolish practically the whole tier makes it deserving to rise to S imo. The it can sweep teams efficiently with just minimal support to take down checks such as defensive Lando-T and Tankchomp. It can run through most weakned balanced teams, due to it being able to setup on crippled defensive mons. It can pair up with offensive grass types such as Serperior or Celebi to take care of counters such as Hippowdon,Mega Slowbro and Azumarill. Although it is 4x weak to SR pre mega, it's pros outweights it's cons and should be reconsidered to rise, as it can be considered on par with Mega Altaria and Clefable.

    (Calcs to compare power between Mega Zard and Mega Alt):
    252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 104+ Def Mew: 235-277 (58.1 - 68.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
    252+ Atk Pixilate Mega Altaria Return vs. 252 HP / 104+ Def Mew: 174-205 (43 - 50.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

    [​IMG] Mega Venausaur: A ----> A+
    Having a decent defensive typing coupled with it's great ability in Thick Fat, which nullifies two of it's weaknesses, it can be considered one of the best walls in the current meta. Adding to that is a great movepool with Leech Seed, Toxic, Synthesis and powerful attacking presence with moves such as Sludge Bomb and Giga Drain, Mega Saur is no slouch. Being a staple to most balance teams, I believe it should rise to A+.

    [​IMG] Gliscor: A- ---> A
    Supporting great 75/125/75 bulk, Gliscor is one of the best physical walls in the current meta with it's great ability in Poison Heal, healing 1/8 of it's health every turn. Gliscor is a great check to some of the most powerful mons in the meta in Bisharp, Mega Altaria, Garchomp and Mega Loppuny. Great support moves in SR and Toxic, and overall great for Stall and Balance.

    [​IMG] Serperior: B+ ---> A-/A
    Speaking of Serperior, it is easily one of the most threatening sweepers in OU atm. Being able to spam a 140 bp move pre STAB with no drawbacks is just simply amazing. Some say that it lacks coverage, but it has the necessary tools in HP Fire and Dragon Pulse to deal with the majority of the metagame. It can also run Taunt to setup on walls, and possess a nice 113 speed stat, leaving it in it's own speed tier. Great mon that definitely should rise.

    Just some things wanted to point out
     
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  4. Dr. Doom

    Dr. Doom Long time hater of stall

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    Great list overall - only a couple of things I disagree with. I don't agree with Clefable in S Rank. While its abilities and movepool give it great utility, its crap stats overall hold it back. It's slow, not that bulky, and weak before boosting. Not sure about M-Altaria either, but I don't have enough experience using it to judge.

    Mamoswine should be in A- IMO: it can check loads of dangerous Pokémon - Thundurus, Charizard X, Garchomp, Dragonite etc. It can even run a great mixed lure set with Freeze Dry.

    Weavile and Volcarona in A? Really?
     
  5. OUAzumarill

    OUAzumarill Active Member

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    I've been using Serp a lot recently, and I fully support this move. The reasons listed are solid enough, but I'd like to point out a few extra details. The first is that its HP coverage is actually quite versatile. For example, HP ground hits most of the things that HP fire hits along with making a good Tran lure (you can use fighting if you're paranoid about Air Balloon Tran and/or Skarmory). I've also had success with HP Electric and Ice (for reasons I'll get into later). There's also the 4th move, which can be the aforementioned Taunt as well as Synthesis, Sub, Giga Drain, Knock Off, or even Glare.

    But I think that the best thing about Serp is that it acts a lot like Bisharp. It is extremely annoying to fight on HO teams because absorbing a Defog gives it a Minimize boost (+2 evasion). It also counters Web teams by actually getting faster when it hits the web making it the fastest poke in the tier aside from the rare Scarf Raikou, Torn-T, or Azelf. It also doesn't care about crap like Parting Shot and Memento, and the rare secondary effect stat drop such as Moonblast's SpA drop is actually welcomed.
     
  6. Oh So Penspin

    Oh So Penspin Hail RNGesus, our Lord and Saviour!

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    I support @Funbot28's nominations, they all make sense. I'd like to add that Gliscor is an extremely versatile mon, which can use all of PhysDef/SpecDef/SD effectively.

    Furthermore, I'd like to nominatie: [​IMG] Starmie A- -> A.
    Spikes and to a lesser extent Toxic Spikes are becoming more popular in the balanced metagame and Starmie does an extremely good job removing them. Unlike Excadrill, it has reliable recovery and with Scald and Reflect Type, it can check many mons that would threaten it, such as Ferro and Bisharp. It's also a very nice Keldeo counter, especially if Starmie runs Psyshock.
     
  7. Springtrap

    Springtrap May I interest you in some roasted gems?

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    Might as well have first post here.
    Most of the Pokemon in D Rank in my opinion shouldn't really be listed there. Here, allow me to explain:

    [​IMG] D to Unranked
    Ditto's only purpose is to revenge kill using its opponent's moves. Any Ditto that doesn't have a Choice Scarf is considered unviable in my book. Even then, it's outclassed by many other Scarfers and priority users. It's really just a waste of a team slot in OU.

    [​IMG]D to Unranked
    Really? Non Mega Gardevoir is listed? No, Gardevoir is outclassed by many other Pokemon. Yeah, it does have decent stats and a nice movepool, Pokemon like Gengar and its own Mega. So don't even try to use regular Gardevoir, use its Mega instead or another fast special sweeper.

    But some Pokemon deserve a more higher ranking.

    [​IMG]C+ to B-/B
    When it comes to stallbreaking or striking a hole into a team, Staraptor is one hell of a choice. Reckless is a great ability for something like it, as it can really do some damage with Brave Bird. Talonflame may be better at spamming Brave Bird with Gale Wings, but does it learn Close Combat? Nope, but Staraptor does! A great Fighting move like that can hit those annoying Rock types that Talonflame can't even touch extremely hard. Moral of the story? If the bird can break a solid rock, it should be viable.

    Sorry if my post is a little different from what you guys are used too, I just created this account, but I've been posting on Smogon for a while now. :P
     
  8. Aurist

    Aurist I do not jump for joy. I frolic in doubt.

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    I took the liberty of reformatting the entire list so it's a lot more readable and you don't have to scroll for 10 years, hope you guys like :+]

    also why is Omastar in B-
     
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  9. Finchinator

    Finchinator IT’S FINK DUMBASS

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    holy fuck aurist is good.
    i will look into this sometime this week i just have been kinda busy and doing a lot of other things, major apologies
     
  10. Spoovo The Pirate

    Spoovo The Pirate Meep! Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    ...so yeah, I guess we get to discuss where the Hoopa formes will sit on this list now, huh?

    I myself have been giving it some testing, and while I'm far from the best (or even a good) OU player, it doesn't take much to realise how much of an impact this fucker's gonna make. With a ridiculous movepool, outrageous power on both sides, and its only 'bad' stat being its average Speed (Defence really doesn't matter imo).

    Its ability is... meh, but abusable via Sub + Punch Berry tactics, and overall, I find it to be an extremely threatening mon, yet not too overpowered due to U-turn being on pretty much everything, which is more or less a guaranteed KO. Somewhere in the As right now, perhaps?
     
  11. Dr. Doom

    Dr. Doom Long time hater of stall

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    I think mega Charizard X should be moved up to S Rank. I would say it's the best Dragon Dancer in OU - it's the fastest, and despite having a lower Attack stat than Dragonite, M-Tyranitar and M-Gyarados thanks to Tough Claws it can outdamage them:

    252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP/252+ Def Leftovers Landorus-T: 202 - 238 (52.9 - 62.3%)
    252 Atk Dragonite Outrage vs. 252 HP/252+ Def Leftovers Landorus-T: 154 - 183 (40.3 - 47.9%)
    252 Atk Mega Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 252 HP/252+ Def Leftovers Landorus-T: 151 - 178 (39.5 - 46.6%)
    252 Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Crunch vs. 252 HP/252+ Def Leftovers Landorus-T: 115 - 136 (30.1 - 35.6%)
    (Yes I know Gyarados would use Waterfall against Lando-T, but I wanted to show a neutral hit)

    Going back to the extra Speed, the aforementioned Dragon Dancers need to gimp their power and run a Jolly nature to outrun M-Lopunny at +1; Charizard can run an Adamant nature and still outrun M-Sceptile without even needing full investment. It's also immune to burns courtesy of its Fire typing, has good physical bulk and isn't weak to any priority moves. While I'd say Dragon Dance is Charizard X's best set, that's not all it can do by a long shot: it can run a defensive set with Will-O-Wisp (better Speed and actual offensive presence give it a niche over M-Sableye; reliable recovery gives it a niche over Heatran), a Double Dance set with Swords Dance and Tailwind (after Stealth Rock, a +2 Dragon Claw 2HKOes 252/252 Bold M-Slowbro), and a Roost + 3 Attacks set.

    That describes Charizard X perfectly IMO. Quagsire was NU last gen; now it's OU and I strongly suspect most people who put it on their teams do so because they need a check to Charizard X, as Clefable's a better Unaware wall in most respects.
     
  12. Oh So Penspin

    Oh So Penspin Hail RNGesus, our Lord and Saviour!

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    So I've played with Hoopa-B for a while and to be honest, it's an amazing wallbreaker. I'm running Sub/Focus Punch/Gunk Shot/Hyperspace Fury with lefties as it's really weak to status and revenge killing, which is taken care of by Sub nicely. It also usually forces opponents to sacrifice a mon, as nothing can take 2 moves of this thing.
     
  13. Spoovo The Pirate

    Spoovo The Pirate Meep! Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    I'm actually running a fairly similar set, with SubSalac: Hasty, max Spd/SAtk, Sub, Punch, Hyperspace Fury and Psyshock lol. Magician comes in really useful once that berry's activated. Brilliant for simply breaking through shit.
     
  14. Finchinator

    Finchinator IT’S FINK DUMBASS

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    No Hoopa discussion for three days until it all settles. Somebody bug me to update this if I don't by then, but will try to tonight!
     
  15. AmourShipper

    AmourShipper meh i'm bored

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    Regular Gardevoir is fine in D imo. It has a niche as a Scarf Fairy-type that can revenge kill a sizeable amount of Pokemon in this tier such as the Latis, Keldeo, Mega Sableye, and more while it has good coverage and it has a clutch Healing Wish to back upon. Its ability, Trace, is really clutch and allows it to copy some amazing abilities such as Multiscale, Magic Bounce, and Regenerator, which is extremely good. At the same time, it can fully heal a teammate with Healing Wish when you no longer need it, and it can revenge kill so much shit in the tier. It's nothing amazing, and that's the only niche it has, but its niche is good enough to keep it ranked imo.

    Also, move Mega Gallade down to B+ or B. It shouldn't be above Mega Medicham: it should either be in the same rank as it or below it. Now yes, long ago in early ORAS, we all though Mega Medicham was completely inferior to Mega Gallade and had no reason to be used over it. However, the truth has been revealed: Mega Medicham was severely underrated while Mega Gallade was simply severely overrated. They play differently in how they perform, but overall Medicham's raw immediate power is more useful than what Mega Gallade has to offer as an SD sweeper. It can clean, but it's hard to steamroll when Clefable and Mega Sableye both exist and stop it pretty hard. It has to have Knock Off as coverage, whereas Medicham can run Ice Punch for free to stomp on Gliscor and Mega Altaria, and its Zen headbutt hits much harder, allowing for it to bypass Unaware Clefable. But the real deal is that Mega Gallade frankly isn't a very great Pokemon. It can't do much against stall because Mega Sableye, Mega Slowbro, and Clefable all exist and stop it, while against offense, it's not particularly fast enough and has a garbage defensive typing. There are other Fighting-types just as effective as Gallade that don't occupy a Mega slot, and the slot could easily be used for something else.

    Feeling Togekiss should be moved up to B. Its Nasty Plot set is very good and with Serene Grace Air Slash, it's an excellent stallbreaker when you combine this with Roost, heal Bell, and impressive bulk and typing. While it has a lot of weaknesses, it has a lot of good resistances as well meaning with a defensive spread it can take on Mega Lopunny, Garchomp, Latis, and more while with Nasty Plot, Air Slash, and Roost, it can stomp on slower Pokemon super well with a high powered Air Slash with high flinch chances while it remains durable with Roost. The last moveslot is flexible and Togekiss can fill it to fit its needs: Thunder Wave allows for it to deal with faster mons and do the imfamous paraflinch (as a bonus), Heal Bell allows it to heal itself from status making it better against stall,, while it can run coverage such as Fire Blast or Aura Sphere to deal with Steel-types. It's a very underrated Pokemon and a pretty good one too so it should be in at least B imo.

    Other than that though, this is a pretty solid list.
     
  16. Laurel

    Laurel Well-Known Member

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    Mega Gallade is too high at A-

    On paper its high attack and speed are threatening but with Hippowdon and Defensive Chomp so popular its easily handled. In addition, Mega Slowbro poops on it, and it falls under the Staraptor clause meaning its a good mon but since everyone needs to check lopunny they also check gallade.

    Furthermore, things like Talonflame and Tornadus-T can easily revenge kill it if they cant switch in.
     
  17. Funbot28

    Funbot28 Active Member

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    Ok we really need to update this A.S.A.P... Here are some changes that should take place for the S-Rank:

    [​IMG] A+ to S: Already covered this in previous post. Best DDcer in the tier, even better than Mega Alt. Becomes immensely devastating even at +1. Great typing + powerful STABs make it one of the best if not the best mons in OU atm.

    [​IMG] A+ to S: One of the most splashable mons in the meta, even more than Clef. TankChomp is extremely incredible, and is the reason why so many physical attackers are so scared to use contact moves. Definitely deserving of S imo.

    [​IMG] A+ to S: Tail Glow + 3 Attacks is just too threatening. Destroys balanced teams who don't have 2-3 checks or counters to it. Amazing coverage that allows it to deal with different checks and counters. Manaphy can automatically get to +3 effortlessly, and honestly should be placed at S.

    [​IMG] A+ to S: Hoopa-U is just a complete monster with 160/170 offenses with powerful STABs in Hyperspace Fury and Psychic. Also has moves like Gunk Shot for Fairies and Focus Blast for Steels. It does have low Speed and Defense, but it's wallbreaking capabilities makes it one of the best mons in OU.

    Will discuss more until these changes are at least discussed. @Finchinator @MetalGross
     
  18. Oh So Penspin

    Oh So Penspin Hail RNGesus, our Lord and Saviour!

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    Agree'ing with ZardX and perhaps Hoopa, as they are metagame-defining mons atm. Hoopa struggles to switch in a bit vs offense, but it's SpDef is actually pretty nice, so it can do it. Also VoltTurn support helps. I disagree on Chomp and Manaphy though. Chomp really only does one thing well atm, which is its tank set. While it is a very good set, it's very predictable and one-dimensional. Versatility is one of the defining characteristics of S-mons, so I feel Garchomp doesn't belong there. It also lacks reliable recovery, which is not too nice for a defensive mon. Manaphy is extremely good vs defensive teams, but struggles against more offensive teams imo. Furthermore it is checked by a lot of common mons in the tier and while it has the coverage moves to get past its checks, it can't run everything at once.
     
  19. Lameflame

    Lameflame Active Member

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    Charizard X is the best pokemon in the metagame currently. I actually think that without its presence, Garchomp would be even better since it has several notable advantages over Hippowdon in Helmet+Skin damage, FB/Toxic coverage, higher atk stat, better speed tier, etc. I'm prepared to say that the reason Hippowdon is so prevalent is really because of Zard X, since Lando-T+TankChomp are very unreliable/non-answers to it, being hardly able to take repeated hits even at +0. It sets up very easily, and yes I understand it has a SR weakness and is weak to common attacking types in the tier but in my experience using it that almost never makes much of a difference; getting to +1 puts you in a very commanding position. The only reason people aren't complaining about how it restricts teambuilding is because it does have a check in Hippowdon, which I guess people view as acceptable, but only because Hippowdon happens to also be good at checking/doing other things whereas Aegislash or Greninja's checks were niche/only situationally good.

    No, I'm not making this into a suspect post or advocating anything like it. Rather, what I'm saying is that Zard X deserves to be in S rank without question. I believe everyone who builds teams feels this way as well given that almost every team is guaranteed to have Hippowdon/Slowbro/Lando-T (or like, Scarf Keldeo or some faster scarfer to revenge kill?) or risk getting swept instantly after a turn of set-up. I guess people just haven't really noticed how much the current OU metagame revolves around Zard X -- and no, I don't feel like I'm over-selling it or overstating its capabilities, at +1 its checks mainly consist of its own Rocks + recoil damage, hoping you brought M-Slowbro, or wearing it down with chip damage + status.

    Zard X is better than Manaphy; at the very most, you could say they're equal but I'd disagree as Manaphy does have counters (Chansey), hard checks and far more viable measures of counterplay given it's average speed and poor capabilities prior to set-up. Zard X at +1 is worse to deal with than Manaphy at +3, and I understand there may be situations where that is untrue but if you stop and actually consider it for a second, think about how, generally, you would deal with both of them after one respective boost and maybe you'll see what I'm talking about. Also, putting Zard X on the same level as Tank Garchomp, or any Garchomp set is never something I'm going to support, I don't think TankChomp is worthy of S rank as it is but to say it's on the same level as Zard X is ridiculous. "Splashability" seems like the new buzz-word these days but it's not everything. Hoopa-U is overrated in my experience, and I know that might also be an unpopular opinion (or not), but if you say it's as difficult or worse to deal with as Zard X I'm gonna need more convincing and justification beyond "it has high stats, big movepool, works nice with VoltTurn, etc."
     
  20. Finchinator

    Finchinator IT’S FINK DUMBASS

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    Everything with a * next to it is a topic for discussion while everything without a * is a change that is being made from the prior list. Dealing with the tables in the OP is dumb and I have no clue how to do it, so if somebody could either instruct me on how to do so or do so themselves, it'd be appreciated so these changes could be put into place.

    Mega Charizard X from A+ to S
    Hoopa-Unbound from Unranked to S
    Manaphy from A+ to S*
    Hippowdon from A to A+
    Ferrothorn from A to A+
    Latias from A+ to A
    Gengar from A+ to A*
    Rotom-W from A to A-
    Mega Manectric from A to A+*
    Mega Alakazam from A to A+*
    Celebi from A- to B+
    Klefki from A- to A*
    Dragonite from A- to B+
    Mega Gallade from A- to B+*
    Starmie from A- to A
    Skarmory from A- to A
    Feraligatr from B+ to A-
    Serperior from B+ to A-
    Slowking from B+ to A-
    Thundurus-T from B- to B (B+*)
    Mandibuzz from B- to B
    Hoopa from Unranked to B- (C+*)
    Cobalion from B- to B*
    Gastrodon from C+ to B-*
    Nidoking from C to C+*
    Nidoqueen from D to C- (C*)
     
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  21. Dr. Doom

    Dr. Doom Long time hater of stall

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    Responses in Bold

    I'd also propose bumping Heatran up to S. Solid bulk, great typing, good power and extremely versatile. Checks important mons like Clefable, M-Altaria that lack Earthquake, Talonflame and Lati@s.
     
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  22. Joyverse

    Joyverse Back for a blast!

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    Why is Zard X an S Rank? I know of only one set for X the DD one. Can you guys help me in explaining is why it's so threatening in the meta now?
     
  23. Oh So Penspin

    Oh So Penspin Hail RNGesus, our Lord and Saviour!

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    It can also run a defensive set with WoW and a double dance set with Tailwind + SD. All sets have different checks and counters, so you don't know what you're up against. It's also very hard to stop when it gets to +1/+1, no matter what the playstyle is.
     
  24. AnuncioBot

    AnuncioBot Tome muito líquido!

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    Manaphy should go to S, excellent bulky in Rain and potential Stallbreaker, or amazing late game sweeper destroying balanced teams. Various forms of use and a terrible threat. Forming good cores with Ferrothorn and Tornadus-T mainly in Rain teams.
     
  25. styler

    styler Pichu lover

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    In my opinion this doesnt quite get it into S as it is kinda a hit or miss pokemon so in some matchups its as near as dead but in others its capable of just outright winning the game
     
  26. TraceofLife

    TraceofLife Lucky Strike

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    I completely agree with AnuncioBot that Manaphy should be on S. it's an excellent stallbreaker and a monster in rain. it just destroy both balance and stall in rain.
     
  27. .Rawr!

    .Rawr! c(°3°)כ

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    Thing with Manaphy is which it can't pass it hard counters - Ferrothorn, Kyurem-b, mega venusaur (and no, psychic is a rare move on it) - while things like MAltaria or Zard-X can brute force past its checks and/or offer utility to their team with heal bell/ w-o-w and clefable being clefable...
    Also it requires rain to do better, so running rain itself and forgetting a coverage move or using politoed and needing support from it.
    So i think while Manaphy totally deserves its a+ rank, its not in the same level of S mons.
     
  28. Edna

    Edna Chasing the Dragon Forum Moderator Forum Moderator

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    Manaphy with Psyshic and HP fire is a thing, just saying it has solutions to pass hard counters. Kyu-B can't switch in Scald without fearing a burn
     
  29. Funbot28

    Funbot28 Active Member

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    So idk if @Finchinator is still running this thread after he quit, but here are some noms I would like to make foe the thread atm:

    S-Rank:
    [​IMG] S to A+
    Mega Altaria was really hyped up after Mega Salamence was banned, due to them being similar DD -ate sweepers. It was really good, but ever since Mega Charizard X has grown in popularity in ORAS, Mega Altaria has kinda declines in usage and viability. To me personally, Mega Zard X is the overall better setuop sweeper thanks to better offensive typing, and more diverse movepools. May be wrong, but I feel that Mega Altaria just dosen't fit with things like Clef and Mega Zard X atm.

    [​IMG] A+ to S
    Mentioned this before, and will say it again, Manaphy is clearly more viable than all of the other A+ mons imo. Tail Glow + Rain Dance is one of the best ways to beat stall teams, coupled with amazing covergae in Psychic, Ice Beam and Energy Ball. It may be a little underwhelming before any boosts, but getting +3 in one turn is truly amazing.

    [​IMG] A+ to S
    Mega Sableye is the face of stall right now. Magic Bounce plus it's incredible typing plus it's amazing defenses are really good for it. It makes it necessary for teams to carry fairy checks in Clefable or Togekiss in order for them to not get beatin by it. Mega Sableye also forms a great core with Chansey, making them incredible potent and difficult to break down. Although not that used, Mega Sableye can also easily sweep teams with Cam Mind and WoW, and it checks a ton of the meta's biggest threats in Mega Scizor, Latios, Mega Medicham and Mega Alakazam. Really deserves to rise imo.

    A-Rank:
    [​IMG] A+ to A
    I feel Gengar has really fallen since ORAS has been stabilizing. It still is one of the best wallbreakers in the tier thanks to it's amazing 130 Sp.Atk, but it is extremely frail, and threats such as Bisharp and Mega Sableye really hinder it's utility. It gives almost no defensive synergy to the team, and really requires support such as slow pivoting to get in safety. "A"rank fits it fine.

    [​IMG] A+ to A
    I really feel that Latios outclasses it's twin. Although Latias is bulkier, the Lati twins are usually run on offensive teams to provide hazard removal support, and Latios fits that job better, as it is more offensively declined. Latias still has it's niche of having Healing Wish support, but I overall feel that Latios is a bit better thanks to it's immediate power.

    [​IMG] A to A+
    Mega Alakazam is an incredible wallbreaker thanks to it's amazing speed and special attack. It's ability to easily revenge kill threats like Non scarfed Keldeo, Lati twins, Excadrill, Weavile and Gengar makes it really useful especially on hyper offensive teams. It's ability in Trace can also be quite useful in dealing with mons like Sand Rush Excadrill and Flash Fire Heatran. I think Mega Zam is an extremely underrated threat that should definitely rise.

    [​IMG] A to A+
    Best mixed wall in the game period. Hippo is soooo bulky and is great on bulky balanced teams, giving nice SR and phazing support. It is also has access to coveted immediate recovery, which gives it a niche over other bulky grounds like Garchomp and Landorus-T. Hippo is just too bulky and splashable to be in A and should rise to A+.

    [​IMG] A+ to A
    Mega Gyarados is another mega that I believe was overhyped, and that has fallen in usage significantly due to threats like Keldeo and Azumarill risen, making it difficult for Gyarados to sweep easily. It has a supbar movepool which makes it predictable, and has an ok speed stat. Don't think it's A+ anymore.

    [​IMG] A to A+
    Weavile is oh so threatening to offense it's not even funny. Dark/Ice is amazing offensively, and it has great STABs in Knock Off and Icicle Crash. Great Pursuit trapper aswell. Should rise imo, nothing else really to say at this point :0

    [​IMG] A to A+
    One of the best walls in OU. Great with utility, as Grass/Steel is amazing defensively. Spikes, SR, T-Wave you name it and Ferro can do it. Sadly is dosen't have immediate recovery, but still can run Rocky Helmet + Iron Barbs for nice residual damage. Also is reason a lot of offensive mons carry fire coverage.

    [​IMG] A- to B/B-
    Can someone explain why this thing is even in the A rankings? Meg Gallade was extremely overhyped early ORAS, and is now a really subpar mega in OU. Mega Medicham outclasses it as a wallbreaker, even though this has a higher speed, since Medicham has priority. SD is really hard to setup,and gets walled by mons like Clefable, Mega Sableye, Lati twins (without Ice Punch) and Slowbro. Gallade should really drop hard. B seems fine to me.

    [​IMG] A- to A
    Klefki is a really good hazard stacker in OU. Fairy/Steel is a godsend, coupled with priority T-Wave and Magnet Rise makes it really good. Is quite bulky and checks things like Lati twins and Keldeo quite proficiently. "A" seems like a good spot for it imo.

    [​IMG] A- to A/A+
    Like Ferro, Skarmory is a great wall in OU also. Deffoger who is not weak to SR, and can also provide hazards is amazing. Also really great glue for offensive teams needing quick hazards thanks to Custap Berry and Sturdy. "A" seems good, but would even push for A+, due to how centralizing it is.

    [​IMG] B+ to A
    Already mentioned in previous post

    [​IMG] B+ to A-
    Mega Medicham is an incredible wallbreaker. Pure Power really makes it incredible leaving it hard to find switchins. It also has priority to become a great revenge killer. Yes, it has checks and counters in Slowbro and Mega Sableye, but if Mega Gallade can be A-, definitely Mega Medicham can be too.

    Will go through B-D later when have time.

    P.S if this thread needs new moderator, I would gladly take position if needed, or make someone else do A.S.A.P as this can provide so much help for newcomers.
     
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  30. AnuncioBot

    AnuncioBot Tome muito líquido!

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    I agree that Mega Sableye should be S. It is the first Pokémon that I, and many other players think to be safe in the build.
    Only one weakness, solid defenses + Magic Bounce. No matter playstyle used, it is a threat for all.

    I believe that all these observations are good, especially Hippowdon.