Haxproof Tier

Discussion in 'Simulator Suggestions' started by greymatter1234, May 30, 2015.

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  1. greymatter1234

    greymatter1234 Trimmin' the tall grass.

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    I know what you might be thinking- Here comes another noob that haven't read the 'READ BEFORE POSTING' thread.

    Well, I have read it, and I'm well aware of the fact that 'No-Hax' tiers are listed among the ideas that are not gonna happen.

    I want to know why.

    My lack of rep and forum activity also might be appalling, but I'm active enough in the game.

    I don't think we are limited by any 'laws' or anything to do with GameFreak or Nintendo, since we broke all and any 'regulations' in Pokemon by introducing the Hackmons tier.

    What I suggest is a 'haxproof' tier with appropriate conditions to create a metagame in which matches are purely determined by a player's skill alone. You see players complaining about hax at the end of the vast majority of matches, and many of you might have experienced that 'I GONNA TEAR MAH FACE OFF' feeling when you miss a hydro pump midway through a Choice Specs SS Omastar sweep in an OU tournament finale.

    This is how I suggest the haxproof tier, should it ever be implemented, function:

    >All moves should have 100% accuracy.
    >The base power of previously inaccurate moves should be reduced. (See spoiler)
    The amount added to the accuracy to make it 100% should be subtracted from the base power.

    For example:
    Stone Edge has base power 100 and accuracy 80.
    80+20=100.
    So it's base power should be reduced by 20.
    Therefore Stone Edge's base power becomes 80.

    Another example:

    Zap Cannon has base power 120 and accuracy 50.
    50+50=100.
    So it's base power should be reduced by 50.
    Therefore Zap Cannon's base power becomes 70.

    And yet another example:

    Blizzard has base power 110 and accuracy 70.
    70+30=100.
    So it's base power should be reduced 30.
    Therefore Blizzard's base power becomes 80.
    >OHKO moves should be banned.
    >Evasion boosting moves/items/abilities should be banned.
    >Extra effects of moves that deal damage should be removed, with certain exceptions. (See spoiler)
    Damaging moves that previously had a chance to burn/paralyze/freeze/posion etc should now stop doing so.
    Damaging moves that had a chance to raise or lower the opponent's or user's stat should stop doing so, unless the chance was 100%.

    Example:
    Close Combat will still drop both defences, V-Create will still drop speed and the defences, but Ancient Power will never increase stats, Shadow Ball will never drop the opponent's Sp.Def etc.

    Also, damaging moves that double in power under certain conditions (when the opponent is using Fly, Dig etc), trapping moves (Infestation, Wrap etc), health stealing moves (Giga Drain, Horn leech etc) and so on should retain their extra effects.
    >Moves that lower accuracy should be banned.
    Unless they also do damage, in which case they will already lose their side effect because of the condition above.
    >There should be no flinching.
    Moves that have a 100% chance to flinch (Fake out) can continue doing so.
    >There should be no critical hits.
    Moves that have a 100% chance to critical hit can continue doing so.
    >Sleep will always last a set number of turns. I suggest 3 turns. Rest will remain 2 turns.
    No non-damaging move causes freezing, so we don't have to worry about that.
    >Other moves that cause an effect for a random number of turns should also now cause the effect for only a set number of turns.
    >Paralysis reduces the speed, but it has no chance of immobilizing the pokemon.
    >Moves that induce infatuation should be banned.
    >Shed Skin should be either banned or have a 100% chance to cure the status on the next turn.
    >The abilities Cursed Body/Cute Charm/Flame Body/Static/Poison Point/Poison Touch/Effect Spore/Wonder Skin will all lose their effects.


    If this tier is ever created, it should start with the all the Ubers banned, and more pokemon should be banned/unbanned as the metagame gets defined.

    A lot of things will change in such a tier. Many immediate effects I can see include:
    >Scald losing it's prominence.
    >Volcarona stops spamming Fiery Dance, and Entei stops spamming Sacred Fire.
    >Nobody is forced to run Rock Slide/Rock Tomb anymore.
    >Abilities like Serene Grace and Compound Eyes become useless. (No more flinch-hax Jirachi and Togekiss. Yeeeeaaah!)
    >Bright powder + Sand Veil Garchomp gets banned.
    >Sleep becomes an important factor, considering Sing and Hypnosis will have 100% accuracy. Some users of these moves may eventually get banned.
    >Moves/items that increase accuracy or critical hit chance become useless.
    >Abilities that prevent critical hits become useless.
    >No more miss edge, focus miss, miss void, hydro miss, will-o-miss....
    >No more complaints about hax. Matches are played and won on the basis of pure skill.

    I don't think this is going to be too hard to program. Sure, it will take some work, but it is definitely possible.

    Please point out any aspect of the game that is left to luck that I may have missed.
    And please give your opinions on the creation of such a tier.

    Cheers,
    ~greymatter
     
    Last edited: May 31, 2015
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  2. Weavile

    Weavile Phoenix

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    I have no obligation to reply to this since it's already rejected by being in the "Things we're not doing" cat. But I will because you asked why.

    Well any and all attempts to remove hax are completely arbitrary. That's the base of it. You remove and change what you will based exclusively on what YOU think would make the game more "skill based". You change Zap Cannon to a 60 power 100% accurate move with a 100% chance to para. Well that just completely removing Twave from the game for anything that learns Zap, You'd make Inferno a 50 power 100% burn move. They'd be your new annoying things to deal with, forget not missing Will-O-Wisp. For that matter what would you propose we do to balance WoW now it can't miss. You've assumed that offensive moves need nerfs but WoW with higher accuracy is just an objectively better WoW. Same goes for Toxic, how do you intend to balance that? Or another example let's look at sleep. You proposed consistent 3 turn sleeps, why? What reasoning drew you to this number? Also you just buffed every single sleep move including Spore, now everything that gets Sing or Grasswhistle or Hypnosis becomes far superior. Personally I didn't think Altaria needed Spore that ignores subs, but I guess I've been wrong before.

    Ah and the old "Remove Crits" argument. Well I love Cosmic Power Magic Guard Clefable too but I'd rather not have to PP Stall it every single game, that would be bad. Well, Unaware Rest Clef becomes literally unkillable once it's set up a couple powers without crits or a Taunter that can survive its attacks and hit back hard enough, like Stallbreaker Mew or something.

    Any aspect left to luck you might have missed? Well you have so called "prediction". To an extent you can claim to know what your opponent will do, but there is absolutely no certainty in such a statement. It's notably more likely that your opponent will make a play you don't expect than it is you will get critted. It's not an RNG element but it's certainly very close to a random element in a 50/50 scenario. Pokémon is all about risk and reward, in RNG elements and in "player elements"

    Summary is, any attempt to make a tier like this creates countless problems with balance and playability. Every time it's been suggested it's been done so out of a losing battle against some element someone thought was unfair and then they got upset and wanted to make a tier where they can't lose to a crit or a miss. A proposal like this is literally always poorly thought out and would be riddled with holes and awful problems that would make it unplayable. Not to mention something even this specific would be a pain in the ass to script out, let alone something that has even half of the bans/adjustments needed to make it even slightly playable.
     
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  3. greymatter1234

    greymatter1234 Trimmin' the tall grass.

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    You have certainly put forward strong points, but let me try to counter that.

    You said that I am suggesting things exclusively based on what I think would create a balanced metagame. What I'm trying to do is suggest the creation of a tier where the luck factor is removed as far as possible. The conditions I put forward can be changed in whatever ways necessary as long is it for realizing the fundamental goal of attaining a hax-free tier.

    As I said, 'Extra effects of moves that deal damage should be removed, with certain exceptions. '. With this condition in effect, neither Zap Cannon nor Inferno would causes status infliction. What it does is turn Zap Cannon into a power 60 accuracy 100 move that no one would practically use, not a deadly new form of t-wave.

    This, if created, will be a unique and tier that is characterized by Pokemon, strategies and movesets largely different from what is prominent in the current metagame. It does make WoW better, further empowering mons like Sableye. This might lead to a metagame where special attackers have an edge over physical attackers, or a metagame primarily dominated by fire-type mons.

    As I stated in my opening post, these conditions does indeed significantly buff sleep-inducing moves. In order to balance the tier, the banning of certain mons that actively abuse sleep, or the ban of a few common sleep moves might be necessary. (Do remember sleep clause will still apply.) This might lead to the evolution of new strategies like using a rest mon to trigger the sleep clause.

    As for the remove crits argument, this makes defence boost abusing mons much stronger, and this, again, can and will lead to the creation of new strategies involving stat-boost resetting moves, taunt and so on. If any Pokemon becomes too much of a tank, banning it will always be an option. (Cressalia had dropped to LU due to usage, and later got banned because of it's massive walling capability. Same thing goes here.)

    Prediction in Pokemon will always involve luck, but there is a crucial difference between prediction and hax. When predicting, a player is trying to read his opponent and anticipate his moves. In can be just "He probably would do that so I should do this" or something more complex, like "He would think I would do this and so he would do that so instead I should do this catch him off-guard." When using a move like Stone Edge, you're clicking the button and praying for the move to hit. In one case you are predicting the behavior of your opponent. By recognizing his playstyle and anticipating his moves, a skilled player can certainly come out on top. But no matter how skilled a player is, when his move misses, his move misses. There is nothing he can do about it. Its kind of the difference between asking a 12-year old to solve a difficult application of what he learns in school and asking the same kid to design and launch a spacecraft.

    In short: If you lose a game because you made bad predictions, it is more because the opponent outwitted you and less because you were unlucky. If you lose a game because of hax, you just got unlucky.

    I did not suggest this because I lost a major match just because of hax. I have been it's victim more times than I can count, but I have haxed my way to victory a helluva lot of times as well. The major reason why I made this suggestion is because it is literally impossible to remain 5 minutes in the tournament channel without seeing multiple users complain of hax, and the ever present barrage of complaints made me think : Why don't we have a hax-free tier yet?

    This tier at it's beginning would most certainly be riddled with loopholes and broken mons, but there would be nothing that is not fixable. It is very similar to what happens to the metagame when a new generation of pokemon games is released. It is thrown into chaos, with multiple users testing out never before seen or heard movesets and strategies. A lot more variations become possible. The metagame only settles down and becomes defined after several months and several bans later. The creation of this tier would be no different.

    Something this specific might be very much a pain in the ass for the developers and would have multiple kinks to iron out, but if it gets implemented and is given time to settle, I am highly optimistic that the outcome would be exceptionally awesome.

    I have good reason to believe I'm not the only one who supports the creation of such a tier. (Seriously, just ask around in the tournaments channel.)

    Anyways, thank you for the reply. I hope you will reply again. I would like to see the opinion of other users as well.

    ~greymatter
     
  4. willdbeast

    willdbeast All round nice guy

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    I would suggest that the formula for calculating the new power of non-100% accurate moves becomes: new power=old power-(100-accuracy), rather than: new power=((100-accuracy)/100)*old power, because since most lower accuracy moves are 100 power or higher it would result in a smaller drop in power. For example Blizzard would become 80 power rather than 77. (Also if this is one of those threads I'm not meant to write in sorry I'm currently reading the rules)
     
  5. Cirno

    Cirno Romantic

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    How would Effect Spore work?
    What would happen to Serene Grace users like Jirachi and Togekiss?
    You've literally just removed the entire point of Tri Attack and Secret Power.
    What about if someone uses Defog on a contrary user?
    How do you plan to change damage rolls?
    What's the point of half the moves now? Blizzard is just an inferior Ice Beam now, same goes for Thunder etc. Also Nuzzle and T-Wave lose over Zap Cannon if I'm reading this correctly.
    The power of every Physical Rock-type has just been severely nerfed.
    Everything will also have reduced immediate power, unless your name is Exploud or Clawitzer or something.
    Sheer Force has been significantly nerfed.
    Also there is a huge reduced risk in sending something in, because there is no worry about sdef drops or status. Again, moves losing their point.
    What about Accupressure?
    No Guard becomes pointless.
    Assist?
    Metronome?
    Confuse Ray/Other confusion moves?
    Hone Claws?
    Present?
    What about Speed Ties? There is literally no way to not make this RNG-based unless you changed core mechanics.
    Cursed Body/Cute Charm/Flame Body/Static/Poison Point/Poison Touch?
    Gender is random as much as possible in the teambuilder, how would that affect Attract and Rivalry?
    Shield Dust and Wonder Skin are useless.
    Multi-hit moves and skill link?
    Super Luck and Tangled Feet?

    This is all sounding like a very streamlined and boring metagame.
     
  6. pokemonnerd

    pokemonnerd Only uso listens to pnerd. Devo too. Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    Or we can just play the game we've been given.
     
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  7. Fuzzysqurl

    Fuzzysqurl baa baa mareep I do what I want Server Owner Developer I do what I want Server Owner Developer

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    I legitimately would have stopped there and been like "go look at any of the other 70 threads with this same topic."
     
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