Hackmons Tier

Discussion in 'Gen 6 Discussion' started by Crystal Moogle, Apr 7, 2015.

  1. Crystal Moogle

    Crystal Moogle Ayaya~ Administrator Administrator

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    Once the server is updated, I'll be adding at least two tiers to PO. Hackmons and Balanced Hackmons.
    Hackmons is a tier that lets you use 252 EVs in every stat, any move, and any ability on any Pokémon. Hackmons has no bans at all, but Balanced Hackmons does.
    The bans in it are as follows:
    • OHKO moves
    • Wonder Guard
    • Huge Power
    • Pure Power
    • Shadow Tag
    • Arena Trap
    • Parental Bond
    • Evasion Moves
    • Assist
    • Chatter
    • 1 -ate ability per team (Aerilate, Pixilate, etc)

    To activate Hackmons mode, start editing a Pokémon in the teambuilder and click "Show Illegal". This will give you access to every move in the game, unlock the EV sliders, and give a list of all the abilities. Once you've built your team, make sure to save it, and should be good to go. You will only be allowed in specific tiers when your team is illegal. You'll get a warning telling you if you try entering any other tier.

    Hopefully this tier somewhat takes off on here :o
     
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  2. inigomontoya

    inigomontoya Slightly Less Well-Known Member

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    Lemme find that team file from PS...

    Out of curiosity, will some of the banned abilities be enabled on pokemon that obtain them naturally?
     
  3. Nightfall Alicorn

    Nightfall Alicorn Left Pokémon Online, most likely not coming back.

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    Last edited: Apr 8, 2015
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  4. inigomontoya

    inigomontoya Slightly Less Well-Known Member

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    Made some notes in BOLD above. also have a couple more things to add to the above list

    w/ Sturdy
    This applies mostly to Shedinja, who can become invincible bar Status moves (and can hold a Lum berry). Also makes Deo-S an insane suicide lead.

    w/ Simple
    Oh Bibarel, how I hate thee. Anyway, Deo-A gets +6 in one turn and starts killing things. Here are a few moves that it works well with:
    • Tail Glow: +6 SpAtk
    • Swords Dance: +4 Atk
    • Cosmic Power: +2 SpDef, +2 Def
    • Cotton Guard: +6 Def
    • Shift Gear: +4 Speed, +2 Attack
    • Geomancy: +4SpAtk, +4 SpDef, +4 Speed in 1 turn w/ Power Herb
    • Quiver Dance: +2 to SpAtk, SpDef, Speed
    Multiple Megas
    Yea, this is a thing. Mega Mewtwo Y exists. But you can use him on a team with Mega Scizor. AND YOU CAN MEGA EVOLVE MEGA MEWTWO Y INTO MEGA MEWTWO X. just wanted to point that out :P Also, Megas can hold Items, a la Rayquaza. Oh, and Ryq can m-evo without Dragon Ascent. But why in Arceus' name would you want to run Ryq w/o D-Ascent
    Ill add more when Im not pressed for time
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2015
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  5. Nightfall Alicorn

    Nightfall Alicorn Left Pokémon Online, most likely not coming back.

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    Wow, I would really like to compile this info together. Thanks for your additions, mate.
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2015
  6. inigomontoya

    inigomontoya Slightly Less Well-Known Member

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    So I decided to look at how abusive Simple actually is, and I saw the following: THIS IS TURN 2, after a Simple boosted Tail Glow

    +6 252+ SpAtk Focus Sash Simple Deoxys-S Psycho Boost vs. 252 HP/252+ SpDef Magikarp: 15844 - 18642 (75447.6 - 88771.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    Ok, so there is obviously not going to be many Magikarp users in Hackmons, but look at those numbers. Lets check some semi-viable pokemon:

    +6 252+ SpAtk Focus Sash Simple Deoxys-S Psycho Boost vs. 252 HP/252+ SpDef Leftovers Blissey: 471 - 555 (66 - 77.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers
    +6 252+ SpAtk Focus Sash Simple Deoxys-S Psycho Boost vs. 252 HP/252+ SpDef Eviolite Chansey: 375 - 442 (53.3 - 62.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    +6 252+ SpAtk Focus Sash Simple Deoxys-S Psycho Boost vs. 252 HP/252+ SpDef Primal Kyogre: 415 - 489 (102.7 - 121%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    +6 252+ SpAtk Focus Sash Simple Deoxys-S Psycho Boost vs. 252 HP/252+ SpDef Leftovers Regice: 348 - 411 (95.6 - 112.9%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Leftovers

    I selected Deo-S for these calcs because it can outspeed any unboosted non-priority move w/o Scarf. I think Ninjask can outspeed I run Modest and he runs Timid, but what is a Ninjask going to do to anyone in this tier?

    I am going to add a couple things to my list above in a few minutes. EDIT: Added a bit on Mega Evolutions so it gets out there. They exist.

    Also, if you need a Tier Leader, I nominate Nightfall Alicorn

    EDIT: I maded a sample team with the Smogon tb (Mac client isnt working atm). I has called it Shedinja of the Five Formes. Because I can.
    Shedinja @ Lum Berry
    Ability: Sturdy
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
    Adamant Nature
    - Dragon Ascent
    - Megahorn
    - Shadow Sneak
    - Shadow Claw

    Deoxys-Speed @ Focus Sash
    Ability: Simple
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
    Modest Nature
    - Tail Glow
    - Psystrike
    - Blue Flare
    - Light of Ruin

    Kyurem-Black @ Life Orb
    Ability: Refrigerate
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
    Jolly Nature
    - Extreme Speed
    - Fake Out
    - Outrage
    - Head Charge

    Gardevoir-Mega (F) @ Assault Vest
    Ability: Teravolt
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
    Calm Nature
    - Moonblast
    - Psystrike
    - Rapid Spin
    - Steam Eruption

    Rayquaza-Mega @ Flying Gem
    Ability: Gale Wings
    Shiny: Yes
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
    Adamant Nature
    - Dragon Ascent
    - Outrage
    - Hyperspace Fury
    - Meteor Mash

    Kyogre-Primal @ Assault Vest
    Ability: Contrary
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
    Serious Nature
    - V-create
    - Draco Meteor
    - Stored Power
    - Steam Eruption


    Tl;dr: Everything uses its various awesomeness to murder the other pokemonz. quickly. Serious nature on Kyogre is completely intentional, there is no one stat that needs boosting more than any other, and he cant afford the reduction in any stat. He uses ALL of them.
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2015
  7. [OG] Swanna Lady

    [OG] Swanna Lady Y.......Yo......You.....YOU'RE FAT!

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    Where do you find the "Show Illegal" option?
     
  8. Weavile

    Weavile Phoenix

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    [​IMG]
    man that was almost hard.
     
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  9. [OG] Swanna Lady

    [OG] Swanna Lady Y.......Yo......You.....YOU'RE FAT!

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    Since I wrote that I realised I'm still on v2.5.1...............

    Anyway, Heatran with levitate is gonna kick some ass
     
  10. Zoroark

    Zoroark Stay Firm Forum Moderator Server Moderator Forum Moderator Server Moderator

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    Yeah 'cause levitate heatran is going to break through everything in BH tier.
    Hnnng.
    Make a suspect thread for that already pls :V

    Edit: I can't believe people actually replied to sarcasm.
    Lol A++
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2015
  11. inigomontoya

    inigomontoya Slightly Less Well-Known Member

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    Ok, here is a replay of a b-Hackmons from Smogon with the team I tried out. My opponent used... 6 mewtwos. Smog doesnt allow all stats to be 252 EVs, so EVs were adjusted as such. Speed Boost/Fury Cutter Mewtwo-X hurts. They also allow unreleased moves.
    http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/balancedhackmons-223516252

    Contrary Close Combat does not approve this message.
     
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  12. [OG] Swanna Lady

    [OG] Swanna Lady Y.......Yo......You.....YOU'RE FAT!

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    Just run another Flying/Psychic type.

    You will win
     
  13. Nightfall Alicorn

    Nightfall Alicorn Left Pokémon Online, most likely not coming back.

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    A Pokemon with Mold Breaker and Earthquake should take it out easily. If it's holding an Air Balloon just use something Fake Out and finish it in one move.
     
  14. TraceofLife

    TraceofLife Lucky Strike

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    can we just suspect baton pass already, baton pass itself is cancerous , baton pass gets so many abusers lol, you can just abuse prankster or magic bounce and just use a mold breaker mon in the last slot to stored power and filler move

    also pls suspect swagplay as well :[

    On related note @inigomontoya Sturdinja says hi to your team
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2015
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  15. inigomontoya

    inigomontoya Slightly Less Well-Known Member

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    BP becomes negligible in this tier, because every pokemon has the same boosting capability. If every pokemon has access to Shell Smash (Oh, add this to the Simple abuse list), then why do I want to pass on a Shell Smash? Might get yonder Complex Ban from OU, but only in Balanced. there are far more annoying things in Hackmons. Like Shedinja. and...

    Swagster. Ok, lets give every pokemon in the game access to a move combo banned in all main tiers. It works just ike it did in OU, which was annoying as hell. But hey, Moody exists in this tier too, so im not complaining. If I were a tier leader, I'd let it play out as-is for a week or two and suspect SwagShit and/or Moody as needed

    Also, Transforming Chansey is annoying
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2015
  16. Zoroark

    Zoroark Stay Firm Forum Moderator Server Moderator Forum Moderator Server Moderator

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    *Cough Cough* Still dies to Entry hazards and status problems bar paralyze *Cough Cough*

    @TraceofLife I wasn't making reference to his team though!
     
  17. TraceofLife

    TraceofLife Lucky Strike

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    Can we also limit contrary abuser into 1 per team? Contrary is a great ability with like many moves to abuse and ir's like half-broken.

    @SkyPhoenix his team doesn't have twave or status or hazard so yeah,sturdinja says hi
     
  18. Mr. Perry

    Mr. Perry wat

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    Shed is easy to win, just use something like ~rocky helmet~ on some random status move.

    Also, prankster Aegislash is lovely, for those who like to stall. You run Spore or Subs/Curse/Recover/Trap move, and you can make a hell in your opp's team.
    And please, no swagger spam :[
     
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2015
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  19. [OG] Swanna Lady

    [OG] Swanna Lady Y.......Yo......You.....YOU'RE FAT!

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    this is a very dangerous tier.....
    honestly there is no way of predicting sets yet
     
  20. OUAzumarill

    OUAzumarill Active Member

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    I could honestly see Protean being broken as hell.... Stuff like Mewtwo with it could wreck virtually anything
     
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  21. ApplepieFTW

    ApplepieFTW New Member

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    I dont get why people are at all talking about contrary: it's mediocre at best. Things like 4atks mm2x are decent abusers, but you have to run v-create/leaf storm/draco/tarrows to even hit common WG users. Even still youre walled by more niche WG users, and powder mscizor basicly just pp stalls you. It has the potential to be decent, but should probably be used with something like shadow tag m-aero to trap WG'ers. So you can actually 'sweep'. You just really do not need contrary, as you ohko things you need to ohko anyway. Just run mold breaker on pokemon like this, I rarely see the point in running it, ever. If you like the idea of something super powerful, pure power is much better so try that instead. Things like mold breaker SS mega latios and SS megagar are much more threatening and much more deadly. Don't forgot this tier is, and always be, ruled by wonder guard users and coverage to hit them. Obviously parting shot users like prankster aegis are fantastic, no guard+sheer cold deo-s still remains threatening. It's not good as a lead, but can be a very effective cleaner when they only have 1 WG user left. Tspikes+ sheer cold/no guard is deadly btw, soo hard to deal with. Just make sure you have a good fake out/espeed mray switch-in.

    Cant wait to make people rage who arent prepared for standard things like imposter chans/subcurse prankster giratina and wonderguarders :D
     
  22. fitzy

    fitzy Heart of the cards Forum Moderator Forum Moderator

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    Pretty sure trace wants it banned in BH, not full hackmons.
     
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  23. Mr. Perry

    Mr. Perry wat

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    Imposters Chansey/Blissey are still able to revenge kill contrary users, as they usually boost their own defense as well (bh talking).
    And from what I've seen in some games, prankster Topsy Turvy and Unaware (mainly MAudino iirc) are relatively common as well.

    Btw, I don't think there will be a ban from hackmons o.o
     
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  24. Nightfall Alicorn

    Nightfall Alicorn Left Pokémon Online, most likely not coming back.

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    Hackmons is a no rule tier version of Balanced Hackmons like the All Gen sub menu of tiers.
     
  25. fitzy

    fitzy Heart of the cards Forum Moderator Forum Moderator

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    So time to talk about potential bans in BH.
    Full ate ban because with 252 on everything this is so much easier to just sweep everything with mixed ate sweepers..
    Sleep clause which I don't necessarily agree with but people seem to want it.
     
  26. Fiery Espeon

    Fiery Espeon The fire never bothered me anyway ~

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    I actually think -ate abilities aren't that bad. Gastro Acid + Prankster will get rid of -ate abilities, causing the -ate Pokemon to switch out and you can bring something else to set up or start sweeping. And the 1 -ate ability restriction is already good enough.
    I agree with Sleep Clause, so there's more room for the metagame to grow. No use if all of your Pokemon are running Safety Goggles or Magic Bounce, like some people *cough*.
    Topsy-Turvy pretty much deals away with Contrary, and Impostor Blissey/Chansey that may have gotten boosts.
    Hoopa-B's typing and signature move, Hyperspace Fury, combined with a decent movepool, can stop Impostor Blissey/Chansey in it's tracks.
     
  27. inigomontoya

    inigomontoya Slightly Less Well-Known Member

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    The thing about Hackmons and BH is that literally everything is broken. Because everyone is broken, broken thing's counters become broken as well. Lets look at the issues in question above, shall we? (THIS LIST IS FOR BH)

    -ate abilities:
    These are the least counterable things in the meta atm, which is why they have a usage limit. The biggest abusers seem to be Diancie and Rayquaza, but I have seen others. Everything that has STAB on Fairy, Ice, or Flying can use this. Giving a pokemon a STAB Fake Out and ESpeed seems troubling, and it causes most teams slight issues.

    Potential Checks/Counters:
    Anything that resists the type in question
    Shedinja (Your free STAB matters not if it can't kill me)
    Gastro Acid
    Impostor brats

    Contrary:
    The thing that boosted an NU pokemon with one of the worst typing and movepool in the game into UU is a very good BH ability. Lets look at it's abusers
    • Close Combat – Def and Sp.Def +1.
    • Dragon Ascent – Def and Sp.Def +1.
    • Draco Meteor – Sp.Atk +2.
    • Leaf Storm – Sp.Atk +2.
    • Psycho Boost - Sp.Atk +2
    • Superpower – Atk and Def +1.
    • V-create – Def, Sp.Def and Speed +1.
    The biggest issues here are D-Meteor and V-Create. D-Meteor hurts like a truck, but is outclassed by V-Create. Let me put it this way: If it doesn't resist Fire, it can't take a P-Groudon V-Create. A OHKO move that RAISES stats is insane. But it has it's counters

    Potential Checks/Counters:
    Topsy-Turvy/Heart Swap
    Shedinja
    Gastro Acid
    Impostor brats

    Prankster:
    Soon

    Sleep Clause:
    This ties in with Prankster. the ability to switch out a sleeping pokemon and not worry about more prankster-spore nerfs that combo quite heavily. Adding this seems like the best way to deal with Prankster while still letting it exist.

    Impostor:
    This counters everything else.

    Potential C/C:
    Hoopa-B
    inhuman prediction

    Derpinja (Sturdy Shedinja):
    This forces teams to run non-offensive moves that it wouldn't otherwise run. This is the entire reason trapping moves exist in this tier.

    Baton Pass:
    Is not broken (soon)

    Ill add more when I'm not putting off a History essay

    Try to focus this convo on the tier that could actually change, not the tier with no banlist.
     
  28. Joyverse

    Joyverse Back for a blast!

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    Hackmons may be good for those wanting to enjoy a lot of broken stuff but for the BH tier I have some suggestions that could be good...
    -1 Contrary Pokemon cap (Be it naturally or hackmoned)
    -Sleep Clause
    And the 510 EV Limit being placed back.

    -Hope it helps n.n
     
  29. Celebi.

    Celebi. Active Member

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    Is there a way to code Meloetta-P being an individual form rather than having to use Meloetta and click Relic Song? Just a thought. It'd be pretty chill to implement it imo, but then against the transformation is unlike the others because you have to use the move to transform rather than partake in an in game event.
     
  30. Nightfall Alicorn

    Nightfall Alicorn Left Pokémon Online, most likely not coming back.

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    I imagine this will be added. It's like Rayquaza to Mega Rayquaza with Dragon Ascent.
     
  31. Crystal Moogle

    Crystal Moogle Ayaya~ Administrator Administrator

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    If you download this client: http://pokemon-online.eu/threads/version-2-6-0-release-for-windows-hackmons.30755/#post-433366 they'll be selectable in the teambuilder.
    Although they won't be usable on server until I update it :(
     
  32. Yttrium

    Yttrium Well-Known Member Developer Developer

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    Just wondering, why is Chatter banned?
     
  33. Spoovo The Pirate

    Spoovo The Pirate Meep! Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    Likely because of the 100% confusion rate. DynamicPunch at least has the 50% accuracy to compensate for it (though No Guard kinda ruins that). Chatter also has a lot of PP, and it's so easy to spam.

    Could also be the fact that only Chatot is supposed to learn it. It can't even be Sketched lol.
     
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2015
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  34. inigomontoya

    inigomontoya Slightly Less Well-Known Member

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    Because Chatter is annoying as hell on a pokemon with 0 stats and we dont want a pokemon with an 800 BST and/or an -ate ability spamming it.

    252+ SpAtk Pixie Plate Pixilate Mega Diancie Chatter vs. 252 HP/252 SpDef Mega Salamence: 78 - 92 (19.8 - 23.4%) -- 100% chance to 5HKO
    252+ SpAtk Aerilate Mega Rayquaza Chatter vs. 252 HP/252 SpDef Mega Salamence: 127 - 150 (32.2 - 38.1%) -- 96.7% chance to 3HKO
    252+ SpAtk Sky Plate Aerilate Mega Rayquaza Chatter vs. 252 HP/252 SpDef Mega Salamence: 153 - 180 (38.8 - 45.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

    3HKOs and 5HKOs dont seem impressive, but it has a 100% confuse chance. Follow up with a Boomburst and things that aren't Blissey die. Dont use Special moves on a Blissey.
     
  35. Spoovo The Pirate

    Spoovo The Pirate Meep! Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    Ermm, just thought I'd mention that Chatter's a Flying-type move, not a Normal. So -Ate abilities wouldn't apply to it.
     
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  36. pokemonnerd

    pokemonnerd Only uso listens to pnerd. Devo too. Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    That would still give more ammo to the already insane Mega Rayquaza though.
     
  37. Dr. Doom

    Dr. Doom Long time hater of stall

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    Can I make an unpopular suggestion? Could we ban Imposter from Balanced Hackmons, as the threat of Imposter Chansey means every boosting sweeper is forced to either run Substitute or something else gimmicky. It wouldn't cripple Chansey - it can still run Prankster and Fur Coat to great effect.
     
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  38. Baron Corm

    Baron Corm New Member

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    It's not that much worse than Ditto. Play around it just like you'd play around a Ditto in OU. There is still Team Preview so just don't boost until it's dead.
     
  39. TraceofLife

    TraceofLife Lucky Strike

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    I disagree with Imposter ban or whatsoever, if a mon boosted till like +6 on every stat, tell me how do you beat it other than imposter and priority :c
     
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  40. Joyverse

    Joyverse Back for a blast!

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    That is right. And I think so too.