Link: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/10065307/Mafia/Smash.js This is a completely different theme from SSBB. It uses all playable characters from the entire Smash Bros series, so even those that only appeared in one of the games (like Pichu, Roy and Snake) are still in. I made this one a faction-based (or Mafia vs. Mafia) format, with most teams grouped by their original series. Each team has a different concept, like how Mario team focuses on Information while Zelda team is defense-based. I also made sure that no one is completely helpless if the rest of their team is out (although some bad matchups may happen) Roles: Spoiler Mario team (Information) Mario - Shared Nightkill, Daykill with 30% reveal chance Dr. Mario - Shared Nightkill, Detox (every 3 nights), Hax on Poison Luigi - Shared Nightkill, Hax on Kill/Daykill Peach - Shared Nightkill, Expose (not revealed) Yoshi - Shared Nightkill, Stalk + Watch Rosalina - Shared Nightkill, Inspect Bowser / Bowser Jr. - Shared Nightkill, Vote as x2 (Bowser) or x0.5 (Bowser Jr.), Vengeful (Bowser Jr.) Wario - Shared Nightkill, Kidnap (turns target's vote into 0 for a turn) every 2 turns. Pokémon team (Varied Support abilities) Pikachu / Pichu - Shared Poison, Nightkill that poison (Pikachu) or expose (Pichu) survivors Jigglypuff - Shared Poison, Distract Lucario - Shared Poison, Protect + Safeguard Greninja - Shared Poison, Substitute (Protect ally from lynch for 1 turn) Mewtwo - Shared Poison, Inspect (as Side), Vote of 2 Pokémon Trainer - Shared Poison, Change forms (with a command), Squirtle (Self-Protect) > Ivysaur (Distract) > Charizard (Revealed Daykill) Zelda team (Standby actions + Defense) Link - Daykill (revealed), Immune to lynch Zelda / Sheik - Expose (not revealed), 3 votes (Zelda) or -5 voteshield and 50% nightkill evasion (Sheik) Ganondorf - Daykill (not revealed), Immune to nightkill Toon Link / Young Link - Nightkill, Shield, 50% evasion on daykills (Young) or poison (Toon) Fire Emblem team (Counters) Roy - Shared Nightkill, Escapes 1 lynch and kills first voter Marth / Lucina - Shared Nightkill, Revealed daykill, Revenge Nightkills (they are identical except for flavour) Ike - Shared Nightkill, Counter Daykills Robin - Shared Nightkill, Kills poisoners, inspectors and distractors Third party series team (Strong unconnected force) Pac-Man - Shared Poison, Vote of 5 Sonic - Shared Poison, 75% Nightkill and Daykill evasion Snake - Shared Poison, Spy (Inspect + Stalk) x2 Mega Man - Shared Poison, Concealed Daykill Note: They share an action despite being unconnected. They can target each other (and that will be broadcast), but they evade teammate's poison System characters team (Upgrade teammates when dead) R.O.B. - Shared Nightkill > Distract > 2x Distract + Inspect (single command) Wii Fit Trainer - Shared Nightkill > 50% Nightkill evasion > 75% Nightkill evasion, 50% Daykill evasion Mii Fighter (Gunner/Brawler/Swordfighter) - Shared Nightkill > Kill2 > Nightkill + Daykill (not revealed, replaces kill2) Mr. Game & Watch - Shared Nightkill > 2 votes > 2 votes + 2x vote multiplier Note: Only 3 of them can spawn. When all of them are alive, they only have the nightkill. They gain their secondary ability when 1 teammate die, and the final upgrade when the 2nd teammate die. Kirby team (Luck-based) Kirby - Nightkill, Swallow (copy to gain/change secondary ability [distract, protect, poison, inspect] that has a 50% chance of working), 50% poison evasion Meta Knight - Daykill, 2nd Daykill (50% Reveal chance), 50% nightkill evasion King Dedede - Random Vote (0, 1, 2, 3, 5, 10, 100, 1000), 50% daykill evasion Dedede's vote's chances: 0 - 10% 1 - 20% 2 - 20% 3 - 15% 5 - 15% 10 - 10% 100 - 5% 1000 - 5% Star Fox team (Day abilities) Fox - Shared Nightkill, Daykill (25% reveal chance) Falco - Shared Nightkill, Day-Inspect (publicly reveals target's name, but not role) Wolf - Shared Nightkill, -3 votes Kid Ikarus team (Voting Power + Defense) Pit - 5 votes, protect Palutena - 100 votes, safeguard (including self) Dark Pit - -5 votes, nightkill Donkey Kong team (Simple pure power) Donkey Kong - Shared Nightkill x2, Pierces protection, cannot be distracted or stalked/watched Diddy Kong - Shared Nightkill x2, Protect Earthbound team (Poison + Information) Ness - Shared Poison x2, Inspect + Watch + Stalk, survives 1 nightkill and 1 daykill Lucas - Shared Poison x2, Distract + Poison2 (2 turns, bypass safeguard), Hax on Nightkills and Daykills Solo Roles -Duck Hunt - Pen-like role (exposes side instead of role), with a chance of having the expose being confirmed as true/fake, Conspirator, Voteshield of +5 (to avoid claiming and begging for own life the whole game) -Villager - Master Hand clone (Pocket ability) - Converts target into another role from their same team. Vote counts as 6. Inspect. Olimar - Recruiter (converts target into Pikmin). Pikmin are still able to win with their former team. Samus / Zero Suit Samus - Nightkill. Evades nightkills (Zero Suit Samus) or Daykills (Samus). Distract (Zero Suit) or Kill2 (Samus). Can change forms. Cannot be distracted. Little Mac - Nightkill (piercing), gains a 1-shot concealed daykill if 2 successful nightkills in a row, counter daykills. Captain Falcon - Concealed Daykill, nightkill (2 charges), -4 voteshield. Ice Climbers - Infinite poison with 6 turns count, 2 votes, evades 1 nightkill, distract. Shulk - Nightkill, has 3 commands with 2 charges each for some kind of boost (self protect + safeguard, poison, +3 votes for a turn) Spawn: Spawn for this theme is randomized, but some rules still apply (excluding the 3~6p setups). Generally, Mario and Pokémon team always spawn (Zelda too on larger games). Then the remaining teams are grouped in different sets, and then one of those teams will be picked at random to spawn. For example, one of the sets has Fire Emblem team, Third Party characters and System characters. At 18p, one of those teams will spawn, while the other 2 may only spawn when this set is used again (at 25p). The spawn is split into several lists to avoid having a role spawning without the rest of their team. In a full 32p game, this is how spawn would go: Spoiler Slot #: Team (Number of roles from this team that will spawn) - Overall number of players spawned at this point Slot 01: Mario (4) - 4 Slot 02: Pokémon (4) - 8 Slot 03: Zelda (3) - 11 Slot 04: Duck Hunter / Villager (1) - 12 Slot 05: Fire Emblem / Third Party / System (3) - 15 Slot 06: Kirby / Star Fox / Kid Ikacus (3) - 18 Slot 07: Ice Climbers / Captain Falcon / Olimar (1) - 19 Slot 08: Donkey Kong / Earthbound (2) - 21 Slot 09: Samus / Little Mac/ Shulk (1) - 22 Slot 10: Fire Emblem / Third Party / System (3) - 25 Slot 11: Kirby / Star Fox / Kid Ikacus (3) - 28 Slot 12: Ice Climbers / Captain Falcon / Olimar (1) - 29 Slot 13: Donkey Kong / Earthbound (2) - 31 Slot 14: Samus / Little Mac/ Shulk - 32 Issues and Concerns -I made a 2nd version of the Villager role. It has the same /pocket ability to convert other players, but the rest of the abilities are removed and the role is a Conspirator. Tell me which version you find more interesting. Will stick to the normal version. Conspirators in a theme with no villagers don't work that well. -I probably should change the border and some messages like killmsg, votemsg, etc so people will notice faster that this is a different theme from SSBB.
I think you should only go with one or the other, because having two different Smash themes may end up confusing people. Honestly, I prefer this theme. It just makes more sense to have factional sides, each with their own concept and strengths. It feels more like Super Smash Bros, and I never really understood why the current was a villager vs. mafia theme. Flavor wise, this theme works better.
It looks soooo pretty... Seems fun, would propose to move to review. I think this would be a good SSBB replacement. I do have a few points to make... Kid Ikarus is misspelled (Kid Icarus is the correct spelling) not sure where DK spawns, but it looks KINDA op in smaller games Pokemon team looks to be not fun for any of the other teams Doesn't really look fun in situations of less than 20ish people All this info is great, but if Mario dies d1 or doesnt spawn then that looks like a bad team. 1 nightkill for a 4 member team? I think you could give the Mario team the ability to convert to one of the other teams if Mario is MIA (this might be really stupid) too many people die. seriously, this looks like it could turn into Vepix, freaking everyone has a kill. If my counting skills are to be trusted, at 32 players, there are potentially 13 kills n1, and 9 d1 kills (not to mention the 4+infinity poisons). In theory, of 32 players, 10 might survive until the first voting phase (all of them poisoned). Granted, this is only in the event of a perfect storm but noone likes dying n/d1, and this theme has a LOT of those.
Requesting this thread to be moved to Review section. The plan is to replace SSBB in case of approval.
Are you sure you reviewed the right theme? I even stated this right at the start of the thread: There's no village side. I don't even know which side you think is the village, since the most members a side can spawn in a game is 4. As for the spawn for small games (3~6p) they are completely randomized since it's kind of impossible to have actual teams on those sizes, so those games could easily have a team spawning with 3 members or even 2 of a same solo role. They are not meant to be balanced, they are meant to have something startable on non-peak times. P.S.: The gifts are an annoyance when trying to read the commentaries, please don't do that again >.>
I'll review this later, mainly because a) I have time, b) played it enough to where I can, and c) to show @Cheezeburgar what the reviews for a theme should look like. I mean, not trying to be rude, but that review was basically "omg Rice theme must approve AIDSCAPSWHEEE".
I share Inigomontoya's opinion that the theme would benefit from a reduced amount of kills. This team is already really powerful, but generally instead of reducing the amount of kills here, I suggest adding more nightkills to other roles. I feel like Luigi should have some sort of an extra ability because he never ends up doing very much (a lot of daykills are revealing anyway). Identifying distracter/poisoner maybe? IMO get rid of Mario's sharing the nightkill, it makes gameplay more interesting because he cannot be distracted to stall his team (which can really wall their whole faction atm). This is my favorite team stylistically, the shared poison with lots of support is cool. Pikachu/Pichu kill could be 1x IMO. Substitute should block daykills because that would make it much more useful, but also significantly buff them against Mario (which is needed anyway IMO). Young / Toon Link really don't need the NKs, the team already has kill power. They could be given sustainable defensive abilities to keep their killer Link/Ganon alive. If their main killer dies, they did a bad job supporting and don't really need to have a win con against other sides. If you really wanted to give them something, they could gain nightkill from lynch or something similar. Mainly, giving them a way to keep Link/Ganon alive is most ideal. Also, Zelda should be revealed when exposing, but 100% evade daykills (or close). Sheik should have 100% evade on nightkill (or close), but a less ridiculous voteshield. A fun team, but they are so overpowered. I guess they don't spawn that often, but they have so many kills it's ridiculous. In addition to that, they have specific counters. For starters, Marth/Lucina do not need the shared nightkill. Why not try, for Roy and Ike, similar along the lines of the mechanic of DK in SSBB? As in, an attack that charges over time, increasing their vote, but then reducing vote to less than 1 after it's used. It should probably max at 2x after 2 nights of charging, with their vote at a value high enough to lynch Sheik. I guess these roles are interesting. Not being connected kind of sucks, but it's pulled off in a workable way since each role is a threat on their own. This team seems fine mostly. A suggestion I have is to make the ultimates more overwhelming against a specific faction than a general buff, for maximum gameplay strategies. For instance, Pikachu would know not to kill Wii Fit if ROB is in if ROB gained a poison resistance, Marth not killing ROB because Wii Fit gains daykill evade, or along those lines. Then we'd have multiple factions trying to fight over which System character to NOT eliminate. I've literally never seen this team spawn. It looks interesting, especially playing as DDD. There is room for improvement, but alas I've never seen them so I can't suggest anything. Looks interesting. Not too much going on, but it works. Give this team a distract, they need it so badly. Removing shared nightkill on Marth/Mario will belay some concerns about stalling an entire faction. I guess a bunch of kills works. There are enough things to worry about, so I can't say they're overpowered, but an incentive to aim for specific roles would be nice. I like this team much more, it's like a strategy based version of the DK side. Lucas should evade lynch IMO. Most of these roles are pretty weak for being alone, but they can probably win if the circumstances are right. Duck Hunt should evade everything except lynch and have that +5 voteshield or higher. This keeps him from claiming, but also means he doesn't get randomly executed by randkilling. Olimar is cool, but has no defense; what do Pikmin do? Give Samus a daykill instead of Kill2, otherwise she gets bopped by nightkill evaders and Marth/Lucina. Other than that the solo roles are good. In general, I like the idea of more soft information in this theme. Can you change one of the Exposes to a side-expose? Zelda's is probably best suited for this, especially if you go with my suggestion to reveal her.
Wow actual suggestions. I kind of forgot to reply to Inigo's post (I saw it when he first posted, but thought "will reply later" and just forgot). Therefore, most of what I would answer there will be in this post. Before anything, I wanted to comment how I picked daykills very carefully for this theme. Yes, there are plenty of them, but very few of those have no drawbacks. Things like requirements and overall team size and their other abilities were taking into consideration when giving daykills to each role. I will explain that more during this post. Really? I thought Mario team was looking a bit weak for its size. Luigi buff sounds fair, it's hardly more than a normal killer. Mario only daykilling could be a problem because he has revealChance, so if he could only daykill he would be in a big pinch if all teammates died (which is not rare since this team lacks defense). The idea is cool though, so if I may reduce the revealChance to apply it. Last Month's windata showed Pokémon side looking considerably stronger than Mario team (those are the 2 sides that spawn the most). Daykills are meant to be really valuable in this theme, so I want to avoid making Substitute evade it. The voteshield it gives is already quite strong (it's the most absolute voting power in the theme, surpassing even Palutena's vote and Dedede's best vote). Pikachu/Pichu suggestion sounds fair, although I may make it 2 charges with recharge or something like that. About Toon/Young Link: I usually agree with the "If their killer died, they support them well", but in this case is not really applicable. There are over 9000 ways to die in this theme, and /shield is not the most reliable of the protections abilities. In any case, the proposed idea is good (focus it more on support), I just plan on doing it differently (give a nightkill or something else if all teammates die). About Zelda/Sheik: Revealing when exposing is not an option for these roles. They already lack the firepower and their main defensive abilities (vote/voteshield) can already be detected during votes. Wouldn't be cool to only have 2 support abilities, and then have those reveal yourself. What I liked was the idea to have one of them exposing as side instead of role. I kind of wanted some difference between Zelda and Sheik's expose. I will try to work Zelda/Sheik and Toon/Young into more supportive roles until they are alone, possibly using day-converts for that. I never felt they are overpowered. Sure, they are an annoyance, but you can always find a way around their counters. They don't even have that many kills (max of 3 FE spawn, and Marth/Lucina never spawn together). Since Marth and Lucina reveal themselves when killing, I think it's better to keep their nightkill ability. They have been design as roles that can risk a daykill by revealing themselves, but if they survive the lynch no one will want to kill them, so they get a 2nd daykill. The thing is that I want that to be a choice the player makes, so if they want to play safe they could save their kill for later. Another reason I don't want to reduce this team's kills (which includes the shared kill for Marth/Lucina and the Roy/Ike proposal) is that their secondary abilities are mostly passive. Except for daykill and to a smaller-extend Roy's counter, they can't choose when to use their other abilities, just hope someone will fall for them, or at most threat/taunt other players by saying "I counter X, come at me!". They have means to connect though. Other than Snake's /spy and Pac-Man's vote, they can guess their teammates by the poison's broadcast (which I could make not or less likely to get haxed). And since the idea was to have a unconnected team where each member is strong by themselves, Mega Man is one of the few roles that get the unrestricted concealed daykill (which can be used to connect if they target a teammate). An interesting suggestion, but may be hard to implement. I will think about it. Lolno. BG + Self-Safeguard is already strong enough. Well, this team was designed to be a "Don't think, just kill" type of team, so I think keeping it simple should be enough. I didn't see this team spawn that much, so I don't even know if the evade lynch suggestion is a good idea or not. Will save this idea for later. Duck Hunt: I could make Duck Hunt evade nightkill, daykill, poison and maybe convert once each. Unlimited evasion is a bit too much for a role meant for trolling. Olimar: Recruiters are always dangerous. Pikmin have no abilities, they are practically villagers. Samus: I want to avoid giving more daykills, so unless there's some drawback I'd rather keep it as kill2. Other Solo Roles: Not sure if they are really weak. Captain Falcon is quite strong (another of the few unrestricted concealed daykillers), Ice Climbers and Villager are not that strong but are those annoying roles that are always funny to be/watch, so I think people that get those roles will forgive me if they are a bit UP. No idea about Shulk and Little Mac since I saw them spawning like once. As for the number of kills, I could implement Mario with no nightkill, a restriction to Pikachu/Pichu's kill and adding some requirements to Young/Toon Link's nightkill. Still a lot of deaths, but this should help for starters, especially since they are on sides that spawn often. I can try to reduce a little more, but can't expect much. Any theme that follows this kind of structure is likely to have lots of deaths, which IMO shouldn't be a problem since 1) Very few themes like this one and 2) It suits Smash Bros.
I think I'll go ahead and get the reviewing party started for real. Creativity There's not much in terms of creativity here, if I were to be honest. It's really cool that you managed to get the roster of Smash Bros from all 4 games into one theme, but neither this franchise nor randomized packs is something we haven't seen before. For example of the former, see the SSBB theme this theme will supercede and for the latter, see Mafia. While the characters make sense in terms of abilities (such as Marth and Lucina being the exact same thing), there's nothing groundbreaking for me to call this a unique entry in terms of mechanics. Since I find some combos cool that haven't been seen before (specifically Fire Emblem, System Characters are nice too with the whole converting thing), you get a 2/5 as opposed to a 1/5. Cohesion Dealing with Cohesion in a regular sense would be impossible when it comes to this theme. The spawn is completely randomized, so the only way to look at it is to look at each team and see if it's a team that can actually hold its ground. I'll just do a checklist below. (I'll count Solo as their own category) Mario: The main key is if Mario or Bowser/Bowser Jr. spawns or not. If either one does, the side is a pretty large threat with the right partners (anyone really works, but Wario is preferred). The side's focus is simple: Find the shit that threatens them and take it out. Pokemon: Whereas Mario carries the offensive torch, Pokemon carries the defensive titanium shield. Their game is very passive, but not completely thanks to Pikachu/Pichu killing, Mewtwo having 2 votes, and Charizard having his daykill (albiet revealed). They also have a nice crutch in the form of Jigglypuff, overall a solid side. Zelda: Works nicely as a side, mainly because it actually feels like a team. Zelda/Shiek/Link need Young/Toon Link to support them during the night so they can do some work, Ganondorf can take out any problems during the night, and the princess gives Link solid info so they can march forward. If any side feels the most like a team, it's this one. Fire Emblem: Sound in terms of defenses, but doesn't feel like a team. This is because none of them really need the others in order to get past certain threats. They're a big threat, but that's due to their main focus: counters. Maybe I'm missing something but it's like a rag-tag gang of characters that will beat the shit out of them if they come close, if anything. Third party characters: Not that hard to connect via poison-spamming (poison everyone besides yourself, partners PM), and ironically enough they are one of the more sound teams. Snake can give info to Mega Man to daykill some fools or to Pac-Man to vote out, either way I like it. System Characters: I've been waiting for someone to pull off the concept of a converting team upon teammates dying ever since I tried it with my Danny Phantom theme attempt involving Johnny 13, Kitty, and Shadow. As far as a team goes, they don't quite seem like a team, but that's because the partners need the other two to die in order to truly shine. It's a mixed bag by nature. Kirby: Covers all the bases, albeit with a good amount of luck involved. Another solid team here, if the cards are in their favor. Star Fox: Basically a smaller version of the Zelda squad, not much to say here. Kid Icarus: In terms of team support, this side is sitting right there next to Zelda. Pit is the key ingredient here as his protect can keep whichever bigger threat (nightkilling with -5 votes Dark Pit vs 100 votes safeguarder Palutena) spawns with him, and it creates that whole essential support thing that actually coincides well with the source series (Palutena needs Pit to fight off the Underworld, Pit needs Palutena to fly. Dark Pit needs Pit to survive, Pit needs Dark Pit for the exact same reason. Dark Pit needs Palutena to keep Pit safe, Palutena needs Dark Pit to do the same (see Chapter 22 in Kid Icarus: Uprising)). [/nerdrambleover] Donkey Kong: Again, not exactly something that screams "team effort", but then again their whole pull is basically that of Mario's, but much more aggressive with a smaller amount of roles. Diddy is really needed for Donkey Kong to plow through people. Earthbound: Basically the Pokemon to Donkey Kong's Mario. Not much to really say, but the evades and hax really do help here. I'll give this a solid 4/5. Most of the sides work well together, but there are some sides that need some work in order to feel like it's truly a team (Fire Emblem mainly). Craftsmanship *looks at QC v3 notes before tossing them out the window* There's not a real way to judge this section except for pointing out roles that should be fixed up in order to be at the standards of the rest of the team. Mario: As Miki noted, Luigi needs something more. Identifying as he noted should do the trick. I'd also give 1.5 or 2 votes to Rosalina simply because that little Luma of her's gives her a good amount of extra firepower in-game, but that's just me. Kirby: I'd make the swallow ability have 75% chance of working, but I understand the whole coin-flip aesthetic you're going for. Star Fox: This side is basically a mini-Mario with a reverse Zelda (the character). I'd have the last character gain the Landmaster for 2 additional votes (or -2 in Wolf's case) along with an additional nightkill that pierces. Solo: Villager needs slightly more protection (immunity to poison? 20% chance of evading nightkills? idk, something) as does Olimar (big time).I'd prefer if the Ice Climbers were slightly more aggressive (6 nights to 4 or 3, limit targets to match the nights), but I can understand why they are like that. I'd also change Shulk's poison to something that actually fits one of his modes (you have Jump, Speed, and Smash. Can't be that hard to fit a mode).. I'll give this section a 3/5 as well. There are nitpicks I have, but there's not too many I can make as the tide of the game changes for every playthrough, making it hard to judge. Course Joeypals!!, M.D. here. After analysis, you do not need a PhD in order to understand the roles of this theme. The helpmsgs are straight-forward enough for anyone to understand, as are the other messages scattered throughout the game. The other item I'm supposed to judge here is pace, but as I noted in Craftsmanship, there's no real way to actually do that as the game changes each and every single game. That being said, this theme is simple enough to where anyone who knows how to Mafia will pick up what to do after one or two play-throughs, which is probably the best you're going to get. I'll give this section a 4/5 because new players will obviously get confused as will people accustomed to SSBB, but the transitional period involving this theme is quick and simple. Concept The concept of this theme is very simple: Try to emulate the actual Smash Bros game as closely as one can while saying "screw you 8p limit!". For that reason alone, the theme is fun to play and is just strategic enough (no more what spawns) where one can adapt to the situation unfolding without too much stress. The main thing about this theme is figuring out who to hunt after when, much like your typical Mafia side but with many more options. Either way, it's simple, fun, and should be pretty simple to grasp even for new players. As a result, I will give you a 5/5 as I have 0 problems involving your vision here. Current Total: 18/25
I wonder if I will have to request for a criteria renaming. Creativity is most about the flavour aspect, most of what you pointed here would fall under Craftsmanship, Course and Concept. They are not cohesive in the sense of working as a team, but they are in the sense of following the same concept. Cohesion for all sides on this theme was focused on making teams share a core, so each side get a clear strength/weakness. Olimar's defense is nullyifing anyone's abilities. It's quite strong by itself, as it gives numbers (more members), security (less enemies) and information (former teammates) to Olimar. As said in the previous post, Villager is a "mess with everyone" role. People tend to like it even if their chances of winning are not that great. Lowering the count for Ice Climber's poison is a fair suggestion. Shulk is already a complicated role (kinda), I don't want to put something that would make it harder to use.
I mean, the thing about revealing daykills is that they expose you as a threat, meaning, other sides will agree to lynch you together I guess? But if Mario only had his daykill, it would be a bit different because it's his only kill, instead of 1 of 2, in a scenario where he's the last member of his team. That makes him equally threatening as any other killer. Of course daykill does have benefits such as surpassing most protection, but other wising being revealed isn't really that much of a drawback. I mean, everyone already knows who isn't on their side, except for the 3rd party team, so it's not entirely the worst thing in this theme. Though reducing it a little bit isn't the worst idea. Anyway, Luigi should definitely get something. Well I guess Jigglypuff kind of walls Mario team except for Mario's daykill as it is, so I don't know why I said that - it would help more against Zelda. But it's fine as is I guess. Day-converts are a good idea, it goes with the theme of day actions too. Zelda being revealed would not be the worst thing ever a) because she doesn't actually kill so she won't be pinpointed as a threat and b) she can take over the vote phase late game as well. But I can see your point, since it will probably end up getting Link or Ganon killed faster. For Zelda/Sheik, you could combine them into a single role to address the issue of her being underpowered once alone. Zelda could have votes, expose, plus maybe Safeguard or something, while also having the ability to /transform into Sheik and gain a killing ability (but with severe drawbacks, so it's only viable once she's alone). Not sure about Young/Toon Link. If you keep /shield, maybe you could give them a 50%+ nightkill evasion so they can defend Link non-suicidally? I was concerned about Marth and Lucina because even if they use their daykills and aren't lynched, because it's not like they can be nightkilled safely. But it makes more sense if they can't co-spawn. I guess I'm generally against another faction which just nightkills, so I'm trying to think of a way to make them more inclined to use their passives or (some other ability) without making them reliant on baiting certain targets. I mean that they're fine despite disconnection being quite a drawback. I'm not totally a fan of Pac-Man or Sonic, and in small games they can kind of connect by poisoning everyone who isn't themselves in a line. In large games the idea works much better I think. If I had a recommendation it would be to remove shared poison and give each one an individual killing ability. Mega Man has his daykill, Sonic something like Poison+Distract in one action, Pac-Man some sort of defensive ability since he has 5 votes, and something for Snake. Well, the BG is a little bit too effective sometimes. My suggestion would be to either make Pit have to alternate between Distract/Protect, or change Dark Pit so that he has a Distract (and make his killing very minimal). That sounds fine. Dying to random stuff can be so annoying, but he also shouldn't be indestructible. But his entire team ends if he dies, and he has no way to prevent that. I like that Pikmin can win with their former team though. The drawback is that she can't beat Marth/Lucina/Ganondorf as it is now. Captain Falcon is definitely strong enough. I'm mostly worried about Villager and Olimar. Yeah, the pace definitely lends itself to the adaptation of the game, so I'm not saying get rid of that. But, reducing some kills can help make the theme more tactical. About Starfox I actually quite like @Joeypals!!'s suggestion because their Final Smash is such a well-known trope. I know you already have on-death power-ups, but you don't have a Final Smash, so the last member getting a Landmaster would be an interesting touch. My idea for it would be a one-cycle power-up of absolute immunity to kill/lynch/distract/protect. Starfox isn't that powerful as it is (plus I think other sides have 4+ when they spawn as 3?) and they could be nerf'd by increasing Fox's reveal chance. I don't think it would be that game-breaking. I'd also go with making Ice Climbers more like Down Syndrome and less like Neptunium. The distract and 1x evade and extra vote mean they can actually be quite a threat if they don't get eliminated early. Unlimited poison is probably too much and too little at the same time.
What I meant was "If Samus gains a daykill, that daykill must have some kind of drawback". Like I said, all daykills are picked carefully, so I want to avoid having too many easily usable daykills. It also needs to avoid overlapping with other roles and to make it so users will actually want to use the other form. I want to avoid using Final Smash, since 1) some characters do not have them because they only existed before Brawl and 2) If one character had it, people would often ask why other characters do not have it too. Only Pokémon and Mario team ever spawn 4 members in a game. To buff Starfox team, I'd rather keep it within their concept of having both Night and Standby actions instead of overlapping with System characters. Some Day Convert ability for Wolf could be what this team needs. I'd rather keep as a Neptunium clone. Earthbound team already covers that annoying poison spot, so a time bomb role offers more variety.
Here are the changes I'm planning to make: -Luigi: In addition to hax, it also becomes an Action Inspector (can find if user can daykill, nightkill, poison or neither; only finds about one of those) -Pikachu/Pichu: /kill requires a 2~3-turn recharge (deciding yet, charges won't be used) -Toon/Young Link: Can nightkill only if last member of the team; Can day-protect a teammate (blocks kills and exposes for 1 turn) -Zelda/Sheik: Zelda expose side instead of role and gain + 50% chance of evading daykills, can /transform into Sheik during the standby. Sheik's /expose becomes a inspect -Third Party: haxModifier: 0.2 for /poison -Ryu: Shared Poison, Piercing Nightkill (low priority) -Wolf: Vote counts as 1, but can copy someone's vote during the standby as twice its value (for that turn only). Example: If copying Palutena, Wolf's vote will be 200 for that turn. -Ice Climbers: Poison Count changed from 6 nights to 4. -Duck Hunt: Evades 1 Nightkill, 1 Daykill and 1 Poison -Pikmin: Can /shield once per game (not shared) I'm not sure about changing Mario and Samus yet.
-Luigi change is good. -Pikachu/Pichu change is good. Recharge of 2 is probably best. -Toon/Young Link: what's the difference between them now? -Zelda/Sheik: Do they keep mayor / voteshield? Sheik keeps nightkill evade? -Third party, did they get hax'd by anything besides Dr. Mario? Or is this to keep them from connecting with each other? -Wolf alright. -Ice Climbers alright. -Duck Hunt yay. -Pikmin yay. Although Pikmin may be reluctant to risk suiciding since they can win with their former teammates. Possible drawback for Samus kill: Could make it require charging the night before so that she cannot immediately gain a second kill by switching to Power Suit. She would only be able to use it after transforming for a full turn, and it could be stopped by PL or something the night before.
All things I mentioned in my previous post are changes applied over their current abilities, so unless I specifically mentioned it, no abilities are removed. Toon/Young Link gain a 2nd protection ability, so they can both /shield and /dayprotect. /shield will likely be lost once it gains a nightkill, while dayprotect may be removed or nerfed with a recharge. As for the Third Party, the idea is to make them harder to get haxed. They do not hax each other, but they get broadcast to try to figure who they should target or not, so I reduced their hax rate so they can change more freely. As for the Samus suggestion, that could work, but I will still think about ideas that do not require a daykill before deciding on that one.
You could always just up Samus' vote to 2 I guess? It would also help because a solo role being weak in the vote phase is pretty sad. It may be best to only give the vote buff to one form, though, probably Zero Suit, since Yunalesca has never gone wrong before.
I made the changes. For Samus, I gave +2 votes to Zero Suit form because it was the simplest solution. The changes made are those (copied from /changelog): Spoiler -Ryu added to Third Party characters as a low priority nightkiller that bypass protections (in addition to shared poison). -Luigi can now inspect to find if a player can daykill, nightkill, poison or neither. -Pikachu/Pichu now have a recharge of 1 turn after using /kill. Ice Climbers' poison now kill in 4 turns. -Duck Hunt evades 1 nightkill, 1 daykill and 1 poison. -Pikmins can /shield once per game. -Toon/Young Link can dayprotect (protect teammate from daykills and exposes), but can only kill if they are the last member alive of the team. -Zelda now expose side instead of role and has a 50% chance of evading daykills. -Sheik dayinspects instead of exposing. -Zelda and Sheik can /transform into the other during the day. -Zero Suit Samus' vote is now +2. -Wolf can now copy someone's vote as twice their value for 1 turn.
WHERE'S CLOUD Spoiler (16:51:56) ±Game: You are Dark Pit, a mysterious, black-clad doppelgänger of Pit! (16:51:56) ±Game: You can use /kill [name] at night to defeat an opponent. Your vote counts as -5. (16:53:30) ±Game: This person is your teammate! To vote them, use /Teamvote Miki Sayaka or simply /Vote Miki Sayaka again. Spoiler Also where's Cloud