Hackmon Subgens

Discussion in 'Implemented' started by Lutra, Mar 27, 2015.

  1. Lutra

    Lutra All Gen Battler/Scripter

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    I was thinking about tierlists and bans, which led me to thinking about Hackmons, a step even beyond the extreme unbanning approach in Anything Goes - the seemingly true top of a tier list. In Hackmons, Pokémon can have any moves or abilities, and 252 evs in every stat.

    My suggestion is a subgen for each generation (Stadium as well for Gen 1) that allows you to use every move on every Pokémon. This would make RBY and GSC Hackmons playable to everyone, without the need for a mod.

    Additional for 3rd Generation onwards:

    • With the abilities, there's a display problem (radio buttons would have to be replaced by a drop-down list).
    • With the EVs, the 510 cap would need to be removed.
     
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2015
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  2. Rabidragon

    Rabidragon Sakura's pet in Liga America

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    Personally i dont want to see something like this, we are going to end with OP sh** like V-Create*+Adaptability or Wonder Guard+Sableye or cheap things like that, its not even going to be funny

    Theres no way the community would take a tier like that seriously, is only going to be played for like 5 or 6 persons for 1 or 2 weeks, it seems like a waste of time in my opinion

    However is not that difficult to do, you can open a server and then you create a mod in which you allow all the moves and abilities in any pokemon, then any person that wants to play that must download the mod and paste it in the program and vuala!!! we have electrodes with dynamic punch...
     
  3. Fuzzysqurl

    Fuzzysqurl baa baa mareep I do what I want Server Owner Developer I do what I want Server Owner Developer

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    "Balanced Hackmons then."

    I think the hardest part in convincing me to do this is to replace the radio buttons with a drop down, especially since that makes it a slight bit more difficult to select an ability for most purposes.

    Also, WonderEye is still weak to Fairy moves. Mold Breaker can bypass Wonder Guard as well. For the most part you do have a checks & balance system for a lot of OP things, but there are still things that can sit on top and be used with more success. I'd almost argue there should still be an "ubers" for Hackmons for things like Mega Rayquaza and such, since their BSTs are so high that you'd only see them on every team as Typing + BST is pretty much king in Hackmons seeing as ability and move limitations are null.
     
  4. Lutra

    Lutra All Gen Battler/Scripter

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    What about just RBY, Stadium and GSC Hackmons subgens to start then? And ADV - ORAS, could be called Hacksets.
     
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  5. Crystal Moogle

    Crystal Moogle Ayaya~ Administrator Administrator

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    I feel as if it'd be better to have a sort of "show illegal" toggle in the team builder, then tiers can have a parameter that allows or disallows illegal sets. I think this is probably better than adding a new subgen for each subgen. Also lets the drop down for abilities only appear when needed. I'll maybe add it to my list of things to look at.
     
  6. Crystal Moogle

    Crystal Moogle Ayaya~ Administrator Administrator

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    I got the toggle for moves working (hopefully completely) now. I had a bit of issues with it spamming the "No free moves" message, despite there being free moves, but I fixed it.

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    Still far from finished, but it's a start (I actually thought this was going to be the hardest part, let's hope it stays that way)
     
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  7. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Badged Deucer

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    @Rabidragon honestly I wouldn't worry too much about that lol. Honestly the only thing you need to balance hackmons in ORAS is like.. a ban on huge/pure power and wonder guard on stuff that doesn't learn it, and you have 'balanced hackmons' as smogon plays it. You /can/ have the EV limit of regular play too, but I hear that's actually worse (from people who play it.. apparently sturdyninja (shedinja with sturdy) is a lot more annoying in it)
     
  8. Crystal Moogle

    Crystal Moogle Ayaya~ Administrator Administrator

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    Last edited: Apr 2, 2015
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  9. Crystal Moogle

    Crystal Moogle Ayaya~ Administrator Administrator

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    Ok, I hit a major wall that I can't seem to get around. It's my own fault for not paying attention when coding, but it basically starts breaking when you try using it for anything but the pokémon in slot 1.
    I've put all my code here https://github.com/CrystalMoogle/pokemon-online/tree/hackmons if anyone wants to look, but I don't have high hopes of getting around :(
    Maybe subgens would have been easier after all :D
     
  10. Rabidragon

    Rabidragon Sakura's pet in Liga America

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    Im not worried, even in the regular tiers people find legal combinations to piss others all the time (yeah im looking at you slowking with leppa berry/heal pulse/recycle/slack off/block) but when you give the players the possibility to have any pokemon with any move and with any ability we are going to end with OP things sooner or later, a new group of persons in charge of baning things to balance the tier is needed if people really want to enjoy a tier like this, however this is not really necessary because a hackmon tier is intended to be a fun tier, not a competitive one,

    I still think that this tier is only going to be played for a month or two and then is going to be forgotten (but maybe im wrong), seeing that apparently is something easy to implement i suppose theres no damage in giving it an opportunity, im impatient to see the future of this.
     
  11. Fuzzysqurl

    Fuzzysqurl baa baa mareep I do what I want Server Owner Developer I do what I want Server Owner Developer

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    [​IMG]

    When I toggle Hackmons off after having it on, then it no longer works, but at least it doesn't crash if that was still a problem!
     
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2015
  12. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Badged Deucer

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    it's been played for years on smogon; remove wonder guard + huge power and you have a balanced meta [never underrate imposter chansey].. seriously though if you could please read some of the background information available elsewhere by members who have explored this tier MUCH more thoroughly than your mediocre theorymonning before you pass this evidenceless judgement of a tier that has a huge following just outside of your own sphere of reference, then maybe you might have something a little more productive to say on this matter :)
    Pure Hackmons should always be playable, and balanced ones with those 2 things removed is legit totally fine; I can speak to people who played gen 5 hackmons wrt that ruleset, I imagine it's pretty similar.
    I think the sheer popularity of ubers on PO means that it will probably be fairly well played.

    Even still, RBYers never forget :p honestly we'd probably still be playing with it in 10 years time. I mean there's an old buggy simulator with its own bugs that make RBY OU notably different to its current form - there's currently in the works plans to host a tournament on there just for fun ;) I mean that's not even coded correctly, and it still poses interest. And that's a piece of buggy closed source software that only works for up to generation 4 anyway, and there's still working servers. Basically, consider this my guarantee that after the fisrt few months, it won't be totally forgotten or unplayed.
     
  13. Fuzzysqurl

    Fuzzysqurl baa baa mareep I do what I want Server Owner Developer I do what I want Server Owner Developer

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    Ball is back in your court @Crystal Moogle
    https://github.com/Fuzzysqurl/pokemon-online/tree/hackmons

    I tried switching so many different ways. Clicking tabs, toggling on the same tab, clicking a tab then toggling, clicking multiple tabs then toggling, etc. and it all seemed to work.

    I also removed "No Ability" from the drop down. Showdown gives the pokemon their Ability 1 if they have no ability selected (ex: Kabuto got Swift Swim in my test).
     
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2015
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  14. Crystal Moogle

    Crystal Moogle Ayaya~ Administrator Administrator

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    Fuzzy gave me a way to fix the problem I was having, so I'm past that. Saving/loading works now, if you have a hackmon team, a flag gets set to tell the teambuilder to not spam you with move errors.
    Server side stuff like partly done too. Atm, the server accepts the team fine as long as you send a networkflag telling it that it's an illegal team. The server does nothing with that information yet, except for removing the limits on abilities/moves/etc. At some point I'll add a property to tiers.

    Only issue I can see so far is that the teambuilder likes to randomly turn a random EV (mostly Speed or SpDef for me) to 212, I have no idea why. It seems this bug doesn't get sent to the server though and it stays 252.

    EDIT: I crash at some point on tier change, not sure why
     
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2015
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  15. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Badged Deucer

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    @Lutra's informed me of an important point concerning mega evolutions. These are what you can achieve if you do hack the games, and thus is what's implemented on smogon, and probably similar to what you should do here.
    Mega Pokemon can be used starting the battle in their mega forme.
    Mega Pokemon holding their own mega item allows tem to mega evolve into themselves during the match (really).
    Mega Zard X/Y and Mewtwo X/Y can mega evolve into eachother during the match if you hold the right item (really really).
     
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  16. Crystal Moogle

    Crystal Moogle Ayaya~ Administrator Administrator

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    The first one is easy to do, the last 2 maybe a bit trickier.

    Also I fixed the crash, well I didn't, it just sorta disappeared and I have no idea why :D But I'm counting that as a win

    No nevermind, it crashes on Windows but not on Linux >:I

    EDIT: Right Windows doesn't play nice with debugging I forgot about that, that's the crash cause, not related to this since stuff, I hope :v
     
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2015
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  17. Crystal Moogle

    Crystal Moogle Ayaya~ Administrator Administrator

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  18. Lutra

    Lutra All Gen Battler/Scripter

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    Brilliant work :)

    I think for PO main tiers, there should be an Anything Goes (AG) tier above Ubers, and the Hackmons tiers above that (or in side metagames) in every primary subgen category (RBY, Stadium, GSC, ADV, HGSS, BW2, ORAS). Then in All Gens, I think there should be Fun Tiers, Hackmons, Anything Goes, with all the other subgen AG and Hackmons tiers inside those categories.
     
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2015
  19. sulcata

    sulcata stéphane curry best waifu Forum Moderator Server Administrator Forum Moderator Server Administrator

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    There already is an anything goes with the Omega Ruby/Alpha Sapphire, X/Y, Crystal, Yellow, etc. "tiers". They're actually the ones listed under "All Gens", sans the fun tiers. Probably should make one Hackmons tier for each generation maybe and balance them if/when people show sufficient interest. Just my two cents anyway.
     
  20. Joyverse

    Joyverse Back for a blast!

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    Hackmons going as a Gen6-only fun tier seems a better idea (maybe you guys have to code less for that) Well that is my idea.