NaCl and myself have updated the OP after discussing it, with the following changes: Removed Yanmega and Porygon-Z (banned) Flygon and Zoroark up to A+ Dragalge, Slowking and Tyrantrum up to A, Escavalier down to A Chesnaught down to A-, Noivern and Virizion up to A- Sneasel and Houndoom up to B+ Scrafty up to B Golurk, Kangaskhan and Omastar up to C+ Haunter and Cacturne down to C, Liepard to C Dusclops and Sandslash down to C- Rhydon and Stoutland down to D sorry dog This is all up for discussion of course. I'd like to suggest a few changes that merit discussion, including Togetic falling to B-, Articuno rising somewhere from C-, Eelektross falling from B somewhere, Rotom-C rising to A-. I'd also like to suggest Monferno to C+, it's a really legit niche mon that stops a lot of special attackers while simultaneously hurting most bulky mons with a sdef taunt wow set.
This changes are now real, also removed PZ and Yanmega. Then, Houndoom moved to B+, it is a not bad mon actually, has access to nplot good mixed stats and unique type (also it checks some serious threaths like Sygiliph or Delphox) Noivern to A-, one of the fastest mon in lu, with solid stabs acces to taunt and good SAtk with a good movepool, prolly one of the best stallbreaker of the tier Escavelier to A, no more so good, a lot of things that it used to checks are now gone also a lot of mons in the higher ranks has access to fire moves to threathen it Zoroark to A+, pretty insane, good offensive stats, good speed point, and that ability though lol Dragalge and Slowking to A, we are currentely testing them, they are great, no surprise if they will rise to higher ranks Chesnaught to A-, it is a bit underwhelming though it checks a lot of common mons like Tyrantrum, also a great spiker Also open for other suggestions OoO
As much as I kind of love them, I think both Bug and Frog can drop down to B+ (Escavalier and Seismitoad). Both can excel at their jobs....but they can be hard placed to find use on some teams with the real threats we have out there, especially because P2 isn't around to hinder them as much or help weaken them for Knight Bug. I can argue for Seismitoad to stay in A-, but I still think Esca is just a bit too high as the current metagame is, and until some other things leave, it shouldn't be in the A group. The fact it only would speed creep to outspeed Slowking so Fire Blast versions don't KO, and you are literally slower than everything else almost just doesn't do it favors. It's B+ for me at this point. Like to make the motion to suggest Moltres for A+. Hurricane can be a little shaky, yes, but the power behind it makes everything fear it, and the fact that yet again it has one of the more decent speed tiers to threaten like everything else. That and unless you run an AV on mons you have to deal with hard hitting LO or Specs sets, where Specs relies on you and having a Rock that tanks the Fire/Flying spam coming your way. (Also, Tyrantrum is not a check/counter to Moltres outside Specs/Scarf locked Fire Blast or you are full HP). Would like to suggest Heliolisk for either A- or A rank at least. No P2 to be annoying, nor Shaymin to dig into it being something bulky enough to mess with it (stupid base 100 board). But, Heliolisk is a pretty great mon, great Sp.Att, good Sp.Def, great Speed, and a very useful ability, as well as a diverse enough movepool to be a threat to most every common type except the Dragons who laugh at HP Ice. Typing is a bit of a curse as well as a blessing, allowing it to be immune to Ghost type moves, but be weak to mach punch from Hitmonlee and Hitmontop, so those can KO it. It's just a really good Pokemon, and unlike Rotom-C (who takes a -2 from having to use Leaf Storm), or Jolteon (who has to pick and choose between HP Grass, Ice, or Water in some cases) it doesn't have to worry about those kinds of recoil to it, which I give as an edge over those two. Wouldn't be opposed to Jolteon joining one level below in A- rank since it's boasts similar ability, though hits a bit harder, just has movepool troubles. Rotom-C I'm a little torn on, great like Helio and Jolt, but Leaf Storm can be a big momentum sapper, as well as the grass typing being a bit hurtful for it, because the tier isn't exactly too kind to Grass types, though Levitate is useful, as is it's Sp.Att, though it's speed lags behind a few key things. I don't know truthfully, but atm I feel it represents a strong B+ group on what leaves it edged out. Though I can say maybe we could make the A group a bit bigger, and maybe one or two other things could also fit into the S rank, but I'm not sure which ones atm. I think Sharpedo is do for a raise, at least to A+ because it's frightfully powerful, and very good now without P2, Shaymin, and Vaporeon Wish Protecting it's HP down from LO. Of course Alomomola is back, which hinders it, but it give it SR, and it's pretty hard to deal with. Especially because it has very good stabs, decent access to some useful auxiliary options, and the fact that it can run a great Special, Physical, and Mixed set. If you don't have say Alo or Hitmontop, or some priority like Hitmonlee or Fletchinder, you are going to be in for a rough time. I have learned that the hard way in a few matches, and it's potent. Kind of feel Golbat and Togetic should probably drop to B- but can find some use to stay above C for the time being, most likely because of typing resistances. But, both are kind of eh....and meh....and beh....and kind of bad unless you are using Nasty Plot Pass Togetic. Think Noivern can go one higher to A just based off having 2 high power stabs, being one of the fastest Pokemon in the tier, and it has Flamethrower which helps vs Steel types (it also has Focus Miss too if you want to have 3 high power moves), and access to Taunt/Switcheroo which can be used to hinder wall types. It's pretty potent, especially under rain. You'd be hard pressed to find something that acts as a solid answer to it that might get hindered by it in some way. Those are things in the recent weeks I've worked with and seen, most other things I'll comment when I have a chance to use, but for now those are my suggestions if people want to consider them, and if it's agreed, we can make the changes later.
Did this for NU, so I'm gonna do this for LU too. Basically, I'm gonna chart out the shifts between LU and UU (LU and NU will be in a spoiler) just for predictions as to where the metagame will go and get an early talking point going. ofc this is subject to change, but I'll update the information if need be. Spoiler: NU/LU shifts NU to LU Eelektross Malamar Rotom-C Spiritomb Virizion Xatu LU to NU Camerupt Masquerain Swellow LU to UU Alomomola Chesnaught Gligar UU to LU Absol Klefki Shaymin (barely; subject to change) Vaporeon (also subject to change) Here a link to see all the current stats: http://tinyurl.com/p4frga8 Discuss away!
Just adding to that post, Gligar is likely to rise to UU and Absol is likely to fall here. Other stuff could also change in the week or so we have to go.
Lose three big annoying physical walls for two wallbreakers, Vaporeon (who's basically just a better Alomomola save the physical bulk), and Klefki, who's simply irritating? Not a bad exchange.
A) We still have a week, so all that is subject to change, especially because how things are teetering. B) You forgot that Sharpedo is going to be in the rising group, it has like 5% in that link you gave. C) Not going to do placements on things not yet in the tier, nor will discussing them right now do much. When they happen, people should feel free to discuss what left/rose and how that affects the rankings.
Updating: Porygon2 is back so it auto goes to S rank. Magneton, Seismitoad, and Sharpedo all removed because no longer LU. Needing to be ranked: Celebi, Mega Aggron and normal Aggron, Vaporeon, Klefki. Discuss any other changes you feel might need to take place over the next 3 months of tiering.
Normal Aggron should probably be B- or lower; it's basically a slower and weaker Tyrantrum that has the slight advantage of being able to deal with fairies. Its mega is probably A+ material as it combines a lot of the useful features of both MegaLix and Metagross, both of whom are near there. Klefki and Vaporeon are both annoying as hell to face and check/counter about half the A and B sections, so somewhere in A would be good for them. Celebi could honestly be S. It's so damn versatile and everything it does it does extremely well. It can run a plethora of different support sets, offensive on either side, and even excels as a mixed attacker.
Meloetta to SS IMO it has enough bulk to survive a supereffective atk most the time and has a movepool to where it hits most the types itsbweak against and with its high spa + stab moves puts out A LOT if damage to any mon
Since P2 has been banned, I removed it from the list. Moved Meloetta up to S because it's ridiculously splashable on teams as a great special tank, and has a wide array of moves (Dazzle Gleam, Focus Blast, U-Turn, Shadow Ball, as well as a lot of support moves) to assist any team. Considering Celebi for S too at this point, it's got sizable bulk thanks to base 100 board, and decent typing to common moves, functions in a lot of roles, and is a fast NP/SD user with power behind it where only Zoroark is faster and stronger but less bulky. Want to hear opinions on moving Exploud down to B+. Now I know, SPECS BOOM hurts, but we have added more steels over the last several cycles currently in Mega Aggron, Metagross, Klefki. Not to mention Bronzong and Escavalier still exists, and Exploud can only "MAYBE" tank one hit without any prior damage from hazards. Anything faster than it, and it's liable to be KO'd fairly easily, meaning you take a wall or play conservatively with Exploud to make use of it. If this were based on calcs and theory of gameplay, Exploud would more realistically be like an A+/S mon just because it "can" take something out, but that's not how it works, and if you aren't out on a tank or something slower, you will more than likely die or get crippled to death. Still effective, just not splash on a team, boom, win. Not anymore, nor really ever was against any decent team with offensive presence, unless it's literally, "6 bulky pogeymanz, this must be stall, or something, I can win like this, it's a real team!" Don't think I have much else to suggest besides that, except....consider using Mega Glalie more. Seriously, get something that can take out the steels, and use Mega Glalie more lol, Freeze-Dry hits waters that would try to wall you, Fridge Return/Boom hits so many top threats, and if you want to stop something that's support, it learns Taunt people, Taunt Glalie is one cool, ice cold customer. I think that's all I have to rant about.
I'm definitely opposed to Exploud moving down. I've been using it for the ladder challenge, and it feels borderline broken at times. Saying that there are Steel types in the tier, so it must not be as good doesn't make much sense to me when Exploud also has great coverage moves like Fire Blast, Focus Blast and Surf. While I do concede that it is less useful against offense due to its lackluster speed, defensively it can be a real monster to deal with.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Exploud Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Aggron: 123-144 (35.7 - 41.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock 252+ SpA Choice Specs Exploud Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Steelix: 110-129 (31 - 36.4%) -- 92.8% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock 252+ SpA Choice Specs Exploud Boomburst vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Klefki: 116-137 (36.5 - 43.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery They switch once, you switch back, you come back, and you get a kill everytime. When do you even need to use Focus Blast or Overheat? Totally opposed to it dropping, this thing hits like a truck and fits very well in Hazard Stacking. Same goes for Metagross 252+ SpA Choice Specs Exploud Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Metagross: 132-156 (36.2 - 42.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock Exploud is A rank with no hesitation
A+ to S: Definitely agree on this. Celebi is one of the best mons in the tier atm, as it has sooo many options that it's not even funny. Can be a cleric, a physical/special sweeper, a SR setter and much more. Base 100 stats across the board is also extremely good for LU standards, making it able to take quite a bit of hits, while also outspeeding quite a bit of the meta. Grass/Psychic does have a lot of weaknesses, making it weak to priority in Sucker Punch and Ice Shard, but it's versatility is unparalleled, and I beleieve is on the same level as Nidoqueen and Meloetta. Plus Pory 2 being gone means one less check on it's sweeper sets. Keep in A: I know the "it's so powerful" argument is looked down upon, but in Exploud's case, it really what merits it's rank. Yes it can be walled by Steels, but with correct prediction, they can just be OHKO'ed or 2HKO'ed by Fire Blast or Focus Blast. It is amazing on webs and TR, and is possibly the best immediate wallbreaker we have. I think it's ranking suits it just fine. My noms: A to A+: I have been using Mega Aggron quite a bit recently, and it's a really good mixed wall, probably one of the best in LU. It checks some of the meta's top threats and is a nice reliable SR setter and phazer. I find it's better than Mega Steelix, and should rise up, or Mega Liz should rise down. It also can use a nice Curse set to sweep quite prominently. A to A+: Sigilyph is a scary attacker in LU atm. LO with it's expansive movepool make sit very difficult to find switchins, while also having impressive 97 Speed. It's weak to quite a bit of priority and can be considered a bit "weak" at times, but it's matchup vs offense is really good and can even be good against stall thanks to Magic Guard. Cosmic Power + Flame Orb is also quite potent and surprising at times. Will add more later
Made a few relatively minor changes: Mega Aggron up to A+ Moltres up to A Samurott up to B+ Sawk up to B Mega Camerupt and Clawitzer down to B- Archeops up to B- Aggron (base) up to C+ Monferno in to C+ Articuno up to C Klinklang in to C Vileplume down to C- Swellow down to D Removed Ninetales, Victreebel, Lilligant, and Gourgeist-XL from the list Keep discussin yall!
Some mons I'd like to see discussed: Meloetta-S : rising from B+. Meloetta-S wasn't in a too good situation a little while ago but right now I feel Melo-S is acting like a really great anti-meta mon. The turn of setup required is still a hindrance but Meloetta's dominance right now is making Melo-S a really good lure that is very hard to deal with and shares no common checks with Melo itself. I could definitely argue this for A- or even mid A right now. Sneasel : rising from B+. Sneasel is absolutely nuts right now and anyone playing LU can probably attest to this. It outspeeds and KOs a large majority of the meta and plays a lot like Zoroark did when it was around, but with less versatility on the sets. Sneasel is very hard to deal with right now and I think it belongs in mid A. Jellicent : rising from B+. Jellicent is slotting really well into the meta right now and proving to be in some teams even more valuable than even Slowking and Vaporeon thanks to its ability to be a problem for bulkier and balanced teams. It doesn't quite provide the bulk and power that Slowking still does in the tier so it's not as good at checking offense but its overall utility is much higher. I feel Jellicent could go into A- or even mid A right now. Vaporeon and Alomomola : falling from mid A. While still the best clerics in the tier right now that role seems to be becoming less and less valuable as the meta speeds up and looks towards less passive mons. Slowking and Jellicent are both proving to be a lot more useful in balanced teams at dealing with common threats. I feel like Vap and Alomo probably belong in A- now, alongside the other decent cleric Aromatisse. Escavalier : rising from B+. Esca is kind of making a comeback right now with the dominance of psychic types like Meloetta, Celebi and Sigilyph. This mon checks most of the strong special attackers in a way that other bulky steels in the tier like Aggron and Steelix are not. I think it's time for Esca to take its rightful place back in the A tier, probably in A- for now. Gligar : falling from A-. Increasingly irrelevant in the face of Flygon's continued position as best defogger in the tier and offers very little to what's proving to be a quite offensive meta right now, especially on the special side. I feel Gligar could fall to B+ or even mid B. Rotom-C : rising from B+. The lawnmower used to be in not a great situation but right now it's almost undoubtedly the best scarfer in the tier and a great specs user too, a huge threat to a lot of common mons and deserves its place back in A tier, I could argue as high as A+ right now but I'm willing to settle for mid A. Scrafty : rising from B. This mon is pretty scary right now, there's quite little that stands in the way of its boosting sets though enough offensive pressure can keep it out, it has a lot of ways of mitigating that too. It's bulky enough to be a threat to offense teams and hard hitting enough to be a threat to bulky teams, and can spiral quickly if you dont have a direct counter to it. B+ or A- for this mon imo. I guess the theme of this post is "Rising from B+" huh. Anyway, discuss!
the problem with melo p is that it has to waste a turn relic songing every single time i agree with sneasel and jellicent and vapo, but i feel alomomola should stay where it is escavalier and gligar i agree with both especially since escavalier just counters stuff like dragalge too and can speed creep slowking and stuff rotom-c i agree, and scrafty to b+ because there's a lot of fighting types in the tier to make it too hard to beat
(12:38:45) +Aurist: (12:28:38) gengar17: the problem with melo p is that it has to waste a turn relic songing every single time <--- my thing with that is how much melo is forcing easy switches rn (12:39:09) +Aurist: and how melo-p insta-wins vs regular melo's checks (12:39:18) +Aurist: that threat is making melo-p so good lol (12:40:01) gengar17: true (12:40:30) gengar17: meloetta is just great in general :+]
I can't agree with a Melo-S rising rank. I've been using it myself personally lately, and there is very little free use of Relic Song. There are times it can be pulled off, but taking a Scald hit or possibly status really wears thin on it, and thus it becomes pretty ineffective and dies faster. It somewhat needs LO to deal damage, and at best it's putting a chunk in the armor of some of our stronger say steel types to get revenge killed. If you can get the Relic Song sleep then hell yeah it becomes really amazing. But, that 10% chance just does not happen enough to say Meloetta S is truly effective, and there's only a handful of Pokemon that would switch on Meloetta depending on the situation. Various random Scarfers can also make Meloetta-S time very limited too. It has way too much working against it to be use of A rank in any form in most cases. There's too much repercussion to make an active use of it where as the normal base special form will do way more and waste less time, as well as have longer longevity. Sneasel I agree with a rise. Ice/Dark is increasingly hard to cover, and it has amazing speed. It's frail, but basically you Knock Off stuff, and switch or Icicle Crash/Low Kick stuff before dying. Doesn't need much support to do that. As well Hitmontop is become increasingly scarce from what I see, so that's a counter that's not getting seen on teams. Also it threatens a lot. Gligar, I can't agree with dropping it from A-. It is still really amazing at what it does, and plot twist, it beats Flygon too. Gligar has Eviolite bulk, so it has to be wary of Knock Off while Flygon doesn't. Flygon can run something like Rocky Helmet to mess with Physical attackers, but typing wise it doesn't get too much true bulk against Physical attackers, but absorbs many good special attacker hits. Both perform a very serious role for teams, and both are highly good at it. Coming with Defog, Recover, Pivoting (U-Turn), fairly amazing typings/abilities to use, and STAB EQ is never bad. Flygon can run special moves though, so there are things that each can do better than the other, but to drop it just because Flygon when Gligar outdoes all the spinners we have, and other lesser defog users? That's dumb. There are obviously very threatening things that Gligar can't beat, but by proxy, a bulky/defensive Flygon will have very similar troubles itself. Vaporeon/Alo - As long as Celebi remains in the tier their usage will be limited as both are extreme set up bait for a Celebi sweep if you don't immediately send out a Dark type to threaten or U-Turn user, and even then it can just outright attack to threaten said "checks". I say if we are gonna do a Celebi suspect in the near future that we wait on these two, because if Celebi leaves, then their roles will return to the natural order that was, and it will be like nothing changed. Jellicent - I wouldn't be opposed to an A- rank. It performs its job effectively, and is a great special wall and Taunt user. The only downside unlike Vaporeon or Alo is how very weak it is to Knock Off. It adds that weakness, and even with some Def investment, unless you pull a burn on the target, it has to switch out of the potential of the move every time or it will take some very massive damage. There's also a lot it plays on the fence with, but Vaporeon and Alo play that same game too. A- rank is definitely doable. Escavalier - I will give that Celebi and Meloetta are free switch ins (unless HP Fire), but Escavalier wouldn't solidly check/counter Sigilyph. Heat Wave is a move it learns so, that's not right there. Could I say it's worth A-....I don't necessarily believe that. It plays with certain things in the tier and is giddy switching into them, but there are just as equally as many things it doesn't like playing against because it's bulk isn't too spectacular due to typing. It's still a solid B+ though. Just gonna point out that ever since Gen 5, Slowking and Escavalier always play speed creep with each other depending on how they are used. So, I can't guarantee that it's true every time for this. I mean obviously people don't speed creep that much, because lol MAX STATS, but playing the various over 100 speed field with both is beneficial, and both should do it if your team lacks a proper check/counter to either mon to save each one. Rotom-C is kind of in the same boat for me. On one hand its really cool to use on occasion. There are things that don't like facing it, but there are equally as many Pokemon and threats to it that it hates them as well. Some really top threats that aren't actually used as much as they should be. It just lacks the full ability to sweep through things, or can run into some very good Pokemon that give it troubles all because it has a shallow movepool and has to pick Specs or Scarf in almost every case to do the job it wants, which changes how it is used each time. Real lack of versatility would be my reasoning. Scrafty - Let's see, we have Emboar, Hitmonlee, Gallade, Virizion, and Pangoro. All fighting types are good. Unlike 4 of the previous 5, Scrafty needs a turn of set up to be very effective. DD can give offense/weak def teams problems, and BU makes it the only fighting type that gives general stallier teams problems thanks to Shed Skin. Virizion and Pangoro can do it too b/c SD and typing, but I've found it's pretty hard to avoid the burns even with Lum and having to deal with Panda's Gunk Shot's bad accuracy. Seriously that move never hits a fairy when you need it to. I find it hard to really put it up there with the others given they do their jobs right out of the gate and don't rely on rolls of an ability to win out in most cases. It has a certain niche for it, but I don't know if I can put it on a good ground with the others, which is kind of why it's lower than them. One suggestion I'd like to make would be at least Fletchinder to A- rank. You can't let this thing get a +2 at any cost really, otherwise for many Pokemon it's a GG and Game Over in most cases. There are some threats to it, as it obviously can't beat the Rock types like Rhyperior or Tyrantrum and they are generally good switch ins, even taking a WoW towards the end game they can still kill it, but it does get U-Turn, which gives it pivoting potential for a team, as it doesn't have to set up SD Acro sweeps right away. As well a choice of WoW, Fire Blast, or Roost can in the 3rd/4th slot as needed makes it pretty unpredictable. If it's Wisp, then rock types early to mid game can lose their ability to contribute to the team and get worn easily while Fletch switches. Fire Blast lets it 3HKO M-Steelix and Klefki if they switch into it, and neither have good recovery, so it can be a useful move to have. Roost just lets it play the survival game on a bulkier set, and plays switching mind games. Just gonna say though, +2 Acro with Gale Wings spells doom for so many things it's ridiculous with how easy it seems to get the SD up. Otherwise non SD Acro threatens a lot of offensive based Pokemon with no defense really.
Tier shifts hype Time to discuss some of the new mons and also think about the place of some of our current mons in the shifted meta Hoopa, Medicham, Mandibuzz are basically brand new so lots of discussion on these pls Rotom-H and Magneton have been in the tier before and should fit in well once again, but the tier has gone thru lots of changes since they were here. I suspect mid A will be a reasonable place for them to both start but discussion would be great anyway!
Medicham should be great, great offensive power and STABs, nice speed, Scarfed set should be great (it also gets BPass for momentum) I think it can really shine now that Doublade is no more in the tier (maybe A/A+ is the right place); Not sure about Hoopa, it seems like a not-healthy element for the tier, but not sure at all, NPlot set can actually annihilate stallish teams (though Mandibuzz counters it pretty well beside thunderbolt), while it struggles to find an opportunity to be a threat against offensive teams because of his poor defensive and speed stats, also 4x weakness to knock off sucks; Happy for Mandibuzz, we got really fews viable defogger and only Flygon was actually a thing, nice mixed bulk, acces to taunt, wwind and recovery and some crucial resistances (another counter for Celebi :+]), think that it can fit well in A-/A, its offensive presence is actually low, also suffers status and SRocks (that sucks for a defogger), though is a decent stallbreaker thanks to a base 80 speed Taunt; also a bulky NPlot set should be viable (Dark+Flying is a great offensive type); Yeah, Rotom-H should fit the tier again, even if he lost some niches (like beating Honchkrow) should still be solid; not sure about Magneton, he never fitted the tier very well, strong Steel mons always have a way to beat it, while other electric mons often outperform it as a fast volt switcher, think that mid B should be its place.
Medicham should be a strong fit, probably slightly better than Gallade just due to the fact it hits harder and you can scarf or LO it with little problems, and don't need SD or BU set up like gallade might need in general. Honestly thinking straight up A rank somewhere because of how scary Scarf Medi is. lol, Hoopa, thing is gonna be a nightmare for most things with just S-Ball and T-Bolt coverage. Given I figure a SubNP + 2 attacks or Sub+3 attacks might be the best way to go, otherwise you could honestly just specs it and it'll be a problem. It does have a useful attack stat and physical movepool, so I'm wondering how weird niche that can do. 4x weak to KO/Dark in general gives it problems, it would be slightly under Meloetta in what it can do imo, especially since you don't have to actually max either offensive EVs for it to be a threat, and if you do well it can get 399 Sp.A with Timid, it's gonna be ridiculous. The only downside is speed, but Sticky Web exists so I'm gonna figure another Mon that has average/decent speed that will make Sticky Webs really annoying to control. Mandibuzzard is dope. Glad she finally joins our ranks. She'll be a pretty bulky tank to try and threaten, and it's not like we don't have options that deal with a bulky flying type, though we did lose Heliolisk. She's gonna be an A ranker somewhere I bet. Rotom-H, give up a rotom, get a better rotom....arguably. Giving up the ability to beat the Rock/Grounds for the ability to beat Grass types. But, at least this rotom form is fire resistant. Magneton is still gonna be a good Steel Trapper. Scarf versions can mess with Durant, or Evio can tank if it lacks Superpower/is CB/CS into something that's not superpower. As far as other steels, it can beat Mega Agg, Steelix, Escavalier, and Bronzong just by having Magnet Rise, though that means going for an Eviolite set. Though the first two can phaze it out, making what it does moot, but it'll inflict heavy damage to Mega Aggron, and well would have to whittle Mega Steelix down. I'd go it's a solid B+/B mon. With no Heliolisk, I'm going to assume that means Jolteon should get a slight bump up after some testing as the fastest Electric Volt Switch user, especially without Rotom-C in the tier as well, and having to go for Rotom-H vs Jolteon for that role. Movepools aren't that diverse, but not like Jolteon has to really think hard about a Hidden Power to use between Ice or Water, seeing as Grass isn't something too needed without Seismitoad in the tier.
Sorry for the late answer, but kind of a variety of reasons in terms of what it does vs what others can do for a team. 90% of what it does requires it to kind of burn in most cases to make full use of it's defensive bulks, which through Will-O-Wisp or Scald only kind of makes it a stretch in practice. Sure when it does happen, Jelly can be on the top of the world in terms of having more momentum for you than your opponent, but really it can be a bit of a stretch considering it has to burn so a team won't lose too much momentum, and the other being that its match-ups across LU are more or less even ground for it, where there are many threats to it and goes back to the it generally has to burn portion of what makes or breaks it. Add in looking at the other water types, Slowking is in A+ due to well it can support a team offensively, as well as being a defensive pivot that can regen HP easily. Alo is below it, but higher than Jelly and Vaporeon for massive Wish passes, while being a tank that can take hits really easily multiple times. Where as you have Jelly and Vaporeon in A- because compared to the other two, Vaporeon's difference is it can be a heal beller or be somewhat offensive, but it's niche, while Jellicent's niche that sets it apart is being a Taunt user thus stallbreaker, since it doesn't have any outstanding offensive stats to be an offensive water. It could be higher because it's really great, just I don't like ranking do or dies that more or less hinge on hoping a status occurs to effectively do what you want it to at a high level, especially when most of the tier doesn't have a problem inflicting some heavy damage on it easily.
Removed Medicham, Aggron, Abomasnow, Slowking, Houndoom, and Tangrowth because they all rose. Adding Donphan, Hitmontop, Toxicroak, Mega Ampharos, Absol, Quagsire, Roserade, and Rotom-Mow to unranked for now. Ampharos (base) will remain unlisted because it sucks, and if you use it, then you better be using the mega anyway. Not going to make any official changes yet, however, multiple Pokemon will be moving up due to how influencial they will become in the coming weeks. We'll start to make some changes probably after a week of the new shift.
Mega Ampharos - To A/A+ It is a very very good wallbreaker for the tier currently, it breaks through bulky waters and Steelix easily. All of it's three sets (All-out, Agility and spdef rest talk) are usable. Agility Amph technically locks down the battle once it's checks are gone and it setups. All-Out Attacks provides the ability to wallbreak and scout as well with switch. SpDef is just a very good tank set that can sop in wisps and scald easily. And this has MOLD BREAKER! Too awesome. Hitmontop- To B-/B It's not the best spinner around (imo) but foresight and intimidate provide decent utility making it an OK Dino check as well. It checks Steelix-M, and Rhyp pretty nicely which is great. Roserade- To A/A+ Man, this mon can have 2-3 roles in one set alone. Specs Rose is no doubt good but what makes it great in offensive/balanced teams is it's supportive nature to layer in spikes and spread sleep. A very useful mon indeed. Technician and Natural Cure are both great abilities to have making it able to run LO Rest+3 moves which is cool. Technician HP Fire 2HKOs Zong which is pretty much it's only hard check otherwise. Toxicroak- To A+ The only reason to be in A+ is it's SD set really. I haven't a clue about it's BU set and idk how to pull off a very good NP sweep really (am bad lol) With SD it can sweep through several mons in this tier. Those who think bringing in jelly to counter (jelly ain't getting suckered, pretty sure it's wisping) is a good idea can be suprised if it runs Knock Off (even though Sucker Punch is better most of the time) It can also run Ice Punch specifically for Nidoqueen or EQ for both Queen and Camel. This might get suspected soon imo.
OK so it's been a long time since we updated this so let's get it goin! Talkin with gengar on server and taking the posts on here into account here's what we're doin: Nidoqueen and Tyrantrum gone, for obvious reasons (banned) Absol to A- Mega Ampharos to A Donphan to B- Hitmontop to B- Quagsire to C Roserade to A+ Rotom-C to A Toxicroak to A+ Heliolisk to A Rotom to A Hoopa to B Jellicent to A Dugtrio to A Please keep discussing the tiers, I'd especially like to see people focus on the B and C tiers because they're a bit out of whack recently with so many shifts happening, so if you feel any B or C tier pokemon are too high or too low, or there's something we're missing, please do post.
I think Roserade in A+ is a bit too much, it's hard walled by common poison types such as Drapion and has to have HP fire in order to get past Bronzong/Ferroseed. Not to mention it's fairly easy to revenge kill it with prios if it's offensive and its speed is very average. I think it belongs max max to A but i'd put it in A- tbh. Jellicent for B+ because of how Knock off is present in LU, and it also loses to some sets such as sub drum chesnaught, scrafty and relies way too much on getting the burn to actually be effective. It also needs some supports because if it's statuses it will lose fairly easily to many walls like Aromatisse who can't be taunted. I honestly don't see Jellicent being more effective than Alomomola at the moment but that's just me. I'm ok with the rest ( you can also drop more Donphan it's bad )
I have to say I disagree quite strongly with both your points here and I'm surprised we differ so much. Your list of checks for Roserade seem pretty strange considering stuff like Mandibuzz and Escavalier are in the tier, and I feel you underrate Roserade's absurd power that destroys a majority of the tier and easy switching into a lot of attacks, as well as its access to tons of utility incl sleep and hazards and decent coverage. I feel that Roserade isn't just really great but a borderline broken pokemon that is being only just kept in check by teams running a heavy steel type in every team and Dugtrio getting a lot more popular. RE Jellicent, I don't think Knock Off is as prevalent as you make it seem, and yes Jelly is bait for chesnaught/scrafty/etc but it's not like those things lack their own counters. Jellicent is completely the definitive bulky water in LU right now and there are times when I feel mid A isn't high enough for it. It has the balance of bulk, utility and threat that fits the tier perfectly and is so easy to put in a team, it lacks the prominent weaknesses seen in other waters in this tier (Alomomola, Vaporeon, Milotic). It isn't absolutely perfect, it gets worn down a little bit easier than its counterparts in the tier but what it lacks it makes up for in spades. Jellicent is the first bulky water type I'd put in any team before any other right now.
With the new rises/drops, I've removed all the rises and added Arcanine, Gligar, Shaymin and Seismitoad to the list. I've put Arcanine and Shaymin in unranked for now because Arcanine is new and Shaymin is very debatable and possibly suspectable, so I'd like to see some discussion on both of those in particular. I have placed Gligar and Seismitoad into A- as this was their position before they left the tier, this doesn't mean their position can't change though and our tier is a bit different since they were last here, so if you'd like to change this please do post! :)
Arcanine to A+: this mon is really splashable and good on it's own, it checks a lot of thing such as emboar which is quite a feat. It's LO Set is also v good but imo, the best set rn is Toxic/Wisp/Morning Sun/Flare Blitz. it tanks loads of stuffs such as Durant (you're not going to hit stone edge with 64% accuracy rofl), there's no doubt that Arcanine deserve to be at least at A+ or even S.