[ORAS] ORAS LU Viability Ranking

Discussion in 'Past Gens Discussion' started by Aurist, Feb 28, 2015.

  1. Draciel

    Draciel ALLEZ! ALLEZ! ALLEZ!

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    Virizion: Definitely deserves B ranking, C is just too low for it. The SD set can run through common stall core of Hippo+Vaporeon, while seriously damaging Escavalier (which Shaymin fails to do). Stone edge as 4th move deals with Flying types as well; so definitely a decent stallbreaker in LU atm. Only thing that's holding it back is Doublade, but still deserves a place in B.

    Cacturne: should somewhere in C probably.
     
  2. NaCl

    NaCl noided, noided

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    I think that Aromatisse and Escavelier should drop to A-/B+, with Aromatisse being eclipsed by Vaporeon as a Wishpasser and Beller (Aromatisse currently gives a lot of freeswitchins to a lot of rank-A mons) while Escavelier was happier when Reuniclus and Cresselia were in the tier (actually most psychic mons in the tier can threaten Escavelier with a fire move, still a decent check to Shaymin).

    The ones who can raise are prolly: Claydol (can set sr, spin, checks Nidoqueen, and can 2hko Doublade even without SAtk investment, also has an interesting movepool with Imprison/Toxic/Ice Beam/Dazzing Gleam, I think it should be at the same rank as Hitmontop); Hippowdon (This thing is so bulky, it can easily handle a lot of A ranks dangerous mons and with 112 base Atk it can threaten less bulky mons, it is also prolly the best sr user in the tier and the only sand streamer, it also has access to strong moves to beat its commons switch-ins -> Ice Fang for Flygon, Toxic for P2 and others mons that can stall it, Stone Edge for Abomasnow and Tornadus, think it deserves at least A if not A+); Druddigon (need to test it more but seems kinda strong to deserve A- rank, it has decent mixed base defenses (77/90/90) and a high 120 base Atk and pure Dragon type offers cool resistances and great offence capabilities; it has a very nice movepool with access to some strong utility moves like Stealth Rock, Glare, Taunt and Dragon Tail, but also some cool coverage moves like Gunk Shot, Fire Punch and Earthquake, oh yes it has also a priority in Sucker Punch; it has access to some cool abilities that can provide him different sets -> Bulky Setter with Rough Skin, Orb Attacker with Sheer Force and maybe Band with Mold Breaker, though is an inferior option than others; Rough Skin+Rocky Helmet is super fine, need more tests though, mostly on offensive sets).

    Maybe also Nidoqueen deserves rank S now, Cresselia and Reuniclus were two serious threats to her, but now it can 2hko almost any pokemon in the tier with the right coverage move and with sr support, she is immune to Thunder Wave meaning that she is a perfect recipe for Smash/GeomancyPass strategy (Whimsicott can still stop her but Stun Spore accuracy sucks). She is also a nice Taunt user (she has 1 point more speed than Smearglol and she is immune to Nuzzle :] ) which allows her to beat p2 in a 1v1 if she carries Focus Blast; She also have access to Stealth Rock and Toxic Spikes, that can always be useful, and thanks to her natural bulkyness and fantastic type she has a lot of free switch-ins, prolly one of the best pokemon in the tier (and maybe the only suspect-worthy in the tier along with Tornadus)

    Yes Virizion should be higher, is kinda weaker than is brother Cobalion but it can still be a threat when counters (DOUBLADE) are gone

    I think I said "also" too many times :s
     
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  3. Celestial Phantom

    Celestial Phantom YAHA

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    Might as well make a post on this, but come the next tier shift, with how we just kind of methodically changed this list as the tier changed over the last 3-4 months, and with all the bans/changes, it's pretty much a given that we'll almost entirely restructure a large amount of this list. So if people wanna get in on this, it'll probably happen some point after the tier changes in a little over a week. We also aren't looking to actually gain much from UU, but I could entirely be wrong on it (so far last I checked we're getting less than 5 drops, though a few are really bordering). But, if you have some vague ideas of changing things even one + or - spot, feel free to post those thoughts, and we'll take it into consideration when doing the restructure.
     
  4. Aurist

    Aurist I do not jump for joy. I frolic in doubt.

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    So, in the light of the tier shifts we should look at where the new pokemon go and how the meta is shifting with the changes.

    I have tentatively placed pokemon in tiers to get some discussion going: Azelf and Espeon in A+ (S seems very possible for both), Gligar in B+ (Not sure if A tier is possible quite yet), Magneton and Rhyperior in A (Could go either way really but I doubt they'll be anything less than stellar)

    I've also made some tentative shifts to some other pokemon in the tier. This is mostly for discussion and to reflect their position improving in the tier as it stands.

    I've moved Smeargle up to A while we have extremely scary bpass play, it seems likely we're going to have some kind of suspect related to that kinda play soon.

    Escav up to A+, Pangoro up to A-, Zoroark up to B+, Skuntank and Drapion up to B

    Meloetta-S down to B+ (heavily out of favour but still good), Typhlosion down to B- (why was it in B+), Registeel down to B (out of favour, its passiveness seems to be a burden currently)

    I've also moved Kingdra up to S. I want a lot of talk about this because there's been some behind the scenes discussion of how Kingdra is actually kind of insane and borderline broken, and 2 of its main checks just left the tier.

    So yeah, discuss plz!
     
  5. pokemonnerd

    pokemonnerd Only uso listens to pnerd. Devo too. Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    Kingdra is basically the Druddigon of this gen's LU in the sense that it'll stay dormant until more than one person uses it, then slowly everyone starts picking up on it and before you know it we'll have a pro-ban suspect discussion. That's not a bad thing at all, just the kind of threat it is.

    Smeargle deserved A for quite a while if not higher, honestly. The only thing that really limits its usefulness is player skill and having to read your opponent just a little harder than most pokemon, but the payoff for using it correctly is insane.

    I really don't see much of a reason to keep Typh in B at all, unlike NU we actually have tons of bulky waters to throw at it and otherwise even evio Gligar can take a hit and render Eruption useless, with Fire Blast barely doing half with no special defense investment. It's a nice fire type nuke to launch at stall or bulky offense, but otherwise it's kind of a neutered pokemon in a lot of LU match ups.

    Espeon completely depends on how powerful passing to it really turns out to be. Deserves at least A if not A+ on its own for now, since fast hard hitting psychic types with some actual bulk are pretty good on their own even accounting for Escavalier and Doublade.

    Azelf is great sitting in A+ right now, knock off+Fire Blast+Psychic is amazing neutral coverage and weakens a lot of threats right off the bat. Not much more to say really, we'll see how we can handle its firepower this time around and adjust rank from there.
     
  6. NaCl

    NaCl noided, noided

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    I think that Jellicent actually needs more love, is a so much better ghost type than Dusclops and Cofagrigus (100/70/105 defenses are really good), I think that deserves at least B/B+, is kinda similar to Milotic, but got a better type and access to some cool stuff like Taunt or WoW to threaten other Walls in the tier (welp it needs some speed investment but its ok), also Water Absorb is a good ability overall;

    Also Scrafty I think should be higher, yes Pangoro is superior for immediate power, but with Shed Skin+Dragon Dance it can overcomes Stall aswell as SDance Pangoro, also Moxie and Intimidate are good choices.

    Virizion should definetely be a lot higher, it is a good pokemon overall, CMind set with HP fire is pretty powerful and is very difficult to handle without an Hard Check like Goodra or a revengekiller like Tornadus or Espeon/Azelf
    Here are some calcs against doublade :v
    252 SpA Life Orb Virizion Hidden Power Fire vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Doublade: 156-185 (48.5 - 57.6%) -- 92.6% chance to 2HKO
    +1 252 SpA Life Orb Virizion Hidden Power Fire vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Doublade: 234-276 (72.8 - 85.9%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes

    About the new things oOoOoooooooOoOo
    Prolly Azelf would become a S pokemon easily, too much coverage :v, not sure about Espeon, it will surely lose some usage if the baton pass wombo combo will die (still an excelent pokemon also by itself), I'm expecting of seeing Zoroark rising in these 2 months, is actually really good, and it has one of the best abilities in the whole game, we will see; also I don't know what to think about Rhyperior and Magneton, they both really good but Rhyperior is just not Hippo (well is a completely different pokemon, but they have some similarities), while Magneton can't really exploit Magnet Pull in an optimal way (only Durant and Escavelier can be trapped effectively, and they both have stuffs to threaten Magneton) and also it suffers from the competition with Heliolisk, that has a better coverage, maybe we will se more Analytic sets.

    Don't know what to say about Kingdra, Whimsicott was a really good mon at stopping the setup of the Sea Dragon, while now it is really hard to stop (I think that the special set is the more threatening because it can be CritDra, it can be Specs, it can be Orb Rain Dancer and all these sets are really difficult to counter, while the DDance set has troubles because it is forced to lock into Outrage and then it becomes a lot easier to stop).
     
  7. pokemonnerd

    pokemonnerd Only uso listens to pnerd. Devo too. Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    After facing it a bit more I'm sure we can safely move Azelf to S even considering the possibility of not banning it. Monstrously powerful stats, insane coverage options, U-turn for momentum and (a very powerful) Knock Off for crippling item dependent pokemon, the list goes on. Keeping it in A+ at this point sells its capabilities short since it's really only restricted by pursuit, most priority and scarfers. And the tier's fattest walls.

    Obviously need to remove smeargle.

    I also think it's safe to move doublade up to A+ and you can make a case for S. It checks so many pokemon in the tier just with its typing and stats alone, has everything it wants barring its evo's signature move and is omnipresent on teams. You have to have an answer for it, and it's very likely on a match by match basis that it will force a trade in one way or another. You can't sleep on 110 attack backed by flawless coverage and SD.

    Little more controversial but I think Kabutops can be moved somewhere into B. It's no Hitmonlee when it comes to offensive spinning but SD and being able to set its own rocks is pretty cool. Not a whole lot in the tier actually likes taking a stone edge if they don't have to and Aqua Jet is useful priority to have for your scarf Emboar and things like Delphox or a worn down Azelf. Plus you can still use waterfall rather freely.

    Plus if claydol is a solid B then tops can definitely hang there too.

    Poliwrath is something I see in B that can probably move down to C. A lot of pokemon it's looking to wall have ways of easily getting around it and lack of recovery barring rest hurts it a lot. Other bulky waters have more useful tools to phaze things out(or just haze milo) and there's just not a whole lot of justification to use it right now when you have monsters like vaporeon and slowking among other things.

    Might change and be B worthy again if we ever unban Krook though.

    With shadow tag banned wobbuffet it D tier. I guess it can encore something or use safeguard but freely being able to switch out of it obviously kills its usability.

    Just a few things, might edit this or post later on when I think of more.
     
  8. Aurist

    Aurist I do not jump for joy. I frolic in doubt.

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    Made a few changes!

    Smeargle and Wobbuffet removed, the former due to a ban, the latter due to the UU Shadow Tag ban - Wobb saw next to 0 usage even with shadow tag, without it it is absolutely useless.

    I put Azelf in S because yeah duh

    Moved Doublade up to A+, despite its weakness to a few common pokemon it remains a consistently omnipresent threat that always has to be accounted for in teambuilding, easily deserving of it

    Flygon I moved down to A- after talking to people, Flygon is gradually finding less and less of a niche and doesn't quite hit hard enough to do what it wants to a lot of the time, but nonetheless it is still one of the better scarfers out there and can be a decent offensive defogger.

    Keep discussing yall, and I'd love to hear what people think is missing from the tier because it's very hard to cover everything. Also, I'd be interested to hear what more people think of Dugtrio's current position in mid C, and Kabutops' current position in C+.
     
  9. E.T.

    E.T. Random Slowpoke Super Moderator Server Administrator Articles Leader Super Moderator Server Administrator Articles Leader

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    I'm thinking Kabutops is fine at C+. Spinning sets are underwhelming thanks to stuff like Doublade and better spinners. A SD set would probably be good if Kabutops had plenty of chances to setup, but I don't think it does.

    I think Dugtrio might be able to move to C+, but that would probably be it because it has some big problems. Because it is so frail, it needs Volt-Turn support, a fallen teammate, or good prediction to get in safely. Then, when it is in, it often lacks the firepower to actually KO what it needs to trap unless it has already taken decent damage.
     
  10. Celestial Phantom

    Celestial Phantom YAHA

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    I think C is perfect for Dugtrio right now, and wouldn't move it. Dugtrio's main ability is with a sash intact usually every time, to trap fire and poison types, or pick off already weakened Pokemon. It's not that strong, its got decent attack, and what makes it useful is that it's one of the fastest Pokemon in the tier. Besides that it sets up SR once (it usually is dead after this), as well it can Memento into a Pokemon that can set up for a team. Sadly, with the bulky tank types we have, there isn't just any one Sweeper that manages to fully take advantage of Memento without still needing multiple team support happening.

    Kabutops as well is fine where its at. In a tier where Doublade is the most used Pokemon, any spinner that lacks a way to kill him, cripple him, or foresight through him, has a very tough job. So, Offensive spinning for Kabutops is hard. It has great offenses, but its speed leaves some to be desired, however it can hit multiple high level threats due to its offensive typing, as well as clean weaker targets off with Aqua Jet. I'm hesitant to move it up any further because there are many bulkier physical types that cause many problems to Kabutops, and the fact it would probably need the SD set up to be a high octane threat.
     
  11. pokemonnerd

    pokemonnerd Only uso listens to pnerd. Devo too. Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    252+ Atk Life Orb Kabutops Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 212 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Doublade: 133-156 (42.6 - 50%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO

    252+ Atk Life Orb Kabutops Knock Off vs. 212 HP / 0 Def Doublade: 133-156 (42.6 - 50%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO

    Knock off--> Knock off--> Aqua jet = dead Doublade. Knocking off doublade in and of itself is a feat most pokemon can't do since you pretty much have to bait it, and for all intents and purposes Doublade has every reason to try and switch into tops since not many things like stone edge. It also cripples P2 since it really does need its eviolite in order to wall as many things as it's used for.

    There's actually little reason to run jolly waterfall anyway since the only reason right now would be Nidoqueen. Stone edge almost kills Emboar with rocks anyway (and you can't do anything but jet on scarf), defensive variants of flygon don't care about it while they need leftovers, and while rhyperior is a valid reason for waterfall you have other pokemon that can take it down.

    The argument isn't about being a threatening sweeper, it's about being a damn good spinner in a tier where a lot of the better hazard removal options are limited to defog. Because let's face it, the only ghost Claydol beats is Doublade while Hitmontop is more of a pivot that you build around. Hitmonlee is, well, Hitmonlee, and I'm not trying to argue at all that kabutops is the "better" rapid spin user. It is another completely viable and very good alternative for an offensive rapid spinner, which aside from the frail Lee we sorely lack. C+ ultimately short sells its usefulness, and being "eclipsed" so to speak by Hitmonlee is not a good reason to put it so low because of said scarcity of offensive spinners.

    With Knock off allowing it to cripple several amazing pokemon in the tier and win against ghost types, while pressuring slower threats with 115 attack and amazing STAB to choose from, it's pretty potent especially when you don't attempt to sweep with it and just focus on spin support while building teams.
     
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2015
  12. Celestial Phantom

    Celestial Phantom YAHA

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    Won't lie, that's pretty damn impressive. Didn't think that KO actually did that much to Doublade from Kabutops. Though from that logic of KO, KO, Aqua Jet. They suicide together basically at the worst. At the best you have 1 or two hazards yourself, using Knock Off Kabutops actually has a strong shot at winning. Unless Doublade isn't running max adamant, in which case Kabu's victory.

    252+ Atk Doublade Sacred Sword vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Kabutops: 184-218 (70.4 - 83.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    I really figured, this might actually do more slightly, but I guess even with a poor HP stat, a nice base 105 defense saves it from worse damage. Even if it's a dual suicide, in which case Kabutops more than likely didn't spin, sacrificing a Kabutops to kill a Doublade can actually mean a lot more to a game, than just spinning, unless it's absolutely needed. I could see a slight bump to maybe B- in a work, but I really can't give it too much higher than that. A lot of it's damage output would usually require having to make predictions (and thus normally forcing a switch). Sadly without a SD or something, as well as slightly average speed it's damage output doesn't strike much fear into many of the Pokemon in the tier who can go 1 on 1 with it or cripple it and damage it in some way. Also, having to sometimes either forgo Waterfall or probably AJ if you go offensive spinner means to hurt it slightly, though it could act as a decoy spinner while you pack it with a possible Defog user instead, with a 4 attack offensive of Knock Off, Stone Edge, Waterfall, Aqua Jet as a psuedo cleaner type. I feel hard pressed to give it a B ranking, though I can see moving it up a spot to B-. I'll see if NaCl or Aurist have a similar opinion.
     
  13. Xdevo

    Xdevo Phrasing Super Moderator Tour Director Super Moderator Tour Director

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    tbf, Kabutop's weak armor is really useful at getting a quick speed boost if you wanna use that 80 speed for something good. Kabutops doesn't /need/ to use SD to spin, nor does it need SD to do serious damage to non-defensive walls. While Kabutops isn't really going to be sweeping, Kabu can at least wallbreak and is really hard to switch into. Knock Off lets Kabutops cripple numerous walls that need leftovers, while LO Stone Edge can do around 50% to a number of the physical walls in LU (Doublade excluded). While I wouldn't say Kabutops is a 'great' wallbreaker, it is hard to switch into, and thanks to priority (and weak armor) its a bit hard to revenge kill without at least a little bulk. It has a little trouble spinning against doublade unless you predict well, but weak armor at least lets it go first if doublade doesn't have sacred sword or full offensive EVs (SpDef Doublade comes to mind).

    I'd put it in B, simply because LU has so few offensive spinners, and Knock Off makes it harder to switch into that first appears. The combination of Knock off and the 50% SE can do a lot to support a physically oriented sweeper, and the fear of a Rapid Spin can make a lot of walls kinda scared to switch into it.

    252+ Atk Life Orb Kabutops Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Aromatisse: 188-224 (46.3 - 55.1%)
    252+ Atk Life Orb Kabutops Stone Edge vs. 200 HP / 252+ Def Vaporeon: 211-250 (46.7 - 55.4%)
    252+ Atk Life Orb Kabutops Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Gligar: 149-177 (44.7 - 53.1%)
    252+ Atk Life Orb Kabutops Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Spiritomb: 146-173 (48 - 56.9%)


    Also I feel like Golbat needs to drop to B-; it doesn't like to switch into most of the S or A ranked mons, there is a lot of competition for a defog user in LU now, and most of the things it would want to wall either have Knock Off or can 2HKO after Rocks if it switches into the wrong move. Gligar is also back and has a much nicer set of stats for walling, and better time with dealing with a lot of the common threats (bar Kingdra).
     
  14. NaCl

    NaCl noided, noided

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    Yes, Kabutops is pretty nice, but is kinda underrated because Hitmonlee is an overall better offensive spinner, though having Knock-Off+AJet is pretty uncommon and SEdge is a bit unreliable (80% accuracy and low pp), but could have some niche (is also one of the few spinners that also get SR, it can go with a SDance set with ease and is also a Rain Sweeper), I think that we should accept that all spinners lose to Doublade (bar Claydol).

    Also, Golbat should drop (maybe to B, is kinda similar to Togetic but it has better offensive capabilities), while Gligar should rise to A/A- (the best defogger in the tier by far, also a good SRocker with Immunity, and has brilliant walling stats)
     
  15. NaCl

    NaCl noided, noided

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    I think that we need to have big changes in this topics, but before I want to hear some opinions;

    I'm going pretty quickly because I want to analyze the majority of the Pokemon in this thread OoO:

    Rank S:
    • Porygon2: seems ok, porygon2 is so fat that is so easy to splash in almost every team, he gots recovery, good type for being a tank, offensive presence and a good ability in trace, it also can handle almost the totality of the tier that is not a Fighting Pokemon (depending on the moveset, only fears Knock Off/Trick, Status, Fightings and some Statuppers)
    • Nidoqueen: I think that Nidoqueen is prolly the best Pokemon in the LU tier, she gots everything to be a threat to almost everything in the tier (Focus Blast 2hko Special Defensive P2, while with Thunder/Thunderbolt it can deal well against bulky waters), nice bulk, hazards, a good speed point and she gets Taunt (!). Surely the S Rank is Deserved.
    • Kingdra: I am the only one who think that Kingdra is just not as good as P2/Nidoqueen? Is just not as splashable as the two mentioned before, surely it gots a lot of viable set (DDancer, Specs, Rain Mixed, Agility+Focus Energy), and it can be deadly when the counters/checks are gone (they depends on the set, but bulkymons in general like P2/Aromatisse/Milotic/Slowking/(Doublade) if ddancer) but all these Pokemon are pretty common. Need to hear some opinion about this, but I'm actually for Kingdra in a S-/A+ rank.
    Rank A+:
    • Doublade, Emboarr, Escavelier, Hitmonlee: not much to say about these guys, they are all amazing and so solid in the current metagame, I think it's right that they are all here OoO
    • Espeon: as predicted Espeon is superfine in LU, is the premium psychic type of the tier and the MBounce ability make it pretty hard to deal with, it needs a bit more of time to stabilize in the tier (there are a lot of viable sets, and most of them are just unexplored)
    Rank A:
    • Aromatisse: I think it's a bit overrated, Vaporeon is better as a Wish Passer and Beller, while there are better fight resistor in the tier, also it is a freeswitchin for some dangerous Pokemon (Doublade/Escavelier/Nidoqueen and Fire Pokemon), also with the ban of MSharpedo and Honchkrow it lost a lot of space, think it should go to A-/B+ rank.
    • Delphox: I have some doubts about this, but I think that Delphox is just not so good as intended, it has the unique ability of being a psychic type who can beat Escavelier with ease, but it gets a bad coverage and bulky waters wall almost every set (CM+Mental Herb is pretty good at wallbreaking bulky waters OoO), has poor defensive bulk and has a scrappy weakness to SR (also it should have 2 more point in speed :c); think it should drop to A- rank, but not so sure about that.
    • Magneton: just not so great as we thinked that it would have been, trapping steel isn't so easy nowadays, while other abilities are just a bit weirdo on Magneton (prolly Analytic is the best), also it suffers competition from Heliolisk (who has better coverage and the unique ability of checking Doublade), dunno what to think, prolly B+ rank.
    • Meloetta, Rhyperior, Sharpedo, Shaymin, Tornadus, Vaporeon: they are all great Pokemon, special mention to Rhyperior who can fit a lot of roles in a optimal way as predicted (Bulky Setter, AVest user, CBand and DoubleDancer)
    Rank A-:
    • Mega Abomasnow, Braviary, Durant, Exploud Flygon, Moltres, Pangoro, Seismistoad, Slowking, Venomoth, Tyrantrum, Yanmega: I think that all of these Pokemon have the right features for being there, they have some falls but they are all really good, maybe only Exploud, Pangoro, Yanmega and Venomoth are more niche Pokemon (they need more support, maybe B+ rank but I'm really unsure about that).
    • Mega Camerupt: I think that he is kinda overrated, being so weak at bulky waters really puts it in a bad situation, and his base 20 speed really doesn't help. Also its wallbreaking capabilities are below the level of the tier (Nidoqueen, Shaymin, Exploud, Dragalge, all got better coverage and more firepower and speed). Also other Megas fit better in the current meta and find more space, I'll be a bit drastic but I think that it should go to B rank.

    I will update this post with other ranks when I'll have time OoO
     
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  16. Celestial Phantom

    Celestial Phantom YAHA

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    Yeah, we probably need to overhaul like everything on this list almost entirely.

    S Rank: Nidoqueen and Porygon2 are staying for sure.

    Both Pokemon are easy to slot on team molds as in some capacity and play their roles amazingly, where they are only hindered by the worst of team type combinations, by people not actually focusing on their strengths. Teams generally are very easy to center around these two. Queen itself forces a pretty much any base 80-85 speed Pokemon to run a Positive Speed nature in case they have to win a 1 on 1, making some things like Braviary, Gallade, Rotom-C, fast Qwilfish, Kingdra, etc. or they will take a huge hit (unless they are of course scarf sets).

    Kingdra - Honestly, I feel we should just have the all encompassing S rank and no psuedo S- rank, just b/c it's like almost always 1 Pokemon and well it's close to being S rank anyway. Kingdra is a unique case. Kingdra can bullshit it's way through practically any team with the Critdra set, and given it learns agility, that makes it pretty annoying to try and fight without some bulky mon like Registeel/Slowking who can at least try and Paralyze it. It's other sets have their own checks/counters, but a lot of that revolves around Aromatisse being a mildly good counter to both Rain Special and DD set up. DD set up has some problems with more offensive teams and lingering Scarf users, while Rain has problems breaking bulky waters, also Hydro Pump accuracy sucks, so Registeel can stall your Hydro PP on a regular basis, unless you are Hydro Master and never miss. I think it should stay S rank, no making a psuedo S rank in an S- rank, and it's too good for A+ rank, and probably the tier.

    A+ Rank: Everyone I'm fine with staying, and making no drops.

    Everything here has a notable role on any team, and are incredibly hard to play against due to their overwhelming power or durability to damage teams.

    I would like to propose a promotion to this rank of Meloetta, Shaymin, and honestly Tyrantrum.

    Meloetta -
    First case for Meloetta. We had a lot of bans since the start of the year, and that includes many threats that has held Meloetta to a fault like Honchkrow, Reuniclus, Mega Sharpedo, "Cresselia" went 1 on 1 in CM wars, Azelf was capable of keeping it in check with Knock Off. It may not be the fastest Pokemon, but base 90 is by no means slow, and it packs one hell of a punch. Access to Calm Mind makes it a highly effective solo sweeper even with only 1 CM under it's belt, as well as a lot of coverage moves to hit various threats. It's defensive bulk also isn't shit, and the worst thing it has to contend with is dealing with Knock Off Pokemon and not having actual recovery. That and it is capable of filling a lot of specialized roles for teams ranging from CM sweeper, to Assvest Tank, to Choice Specs hit and runner, and it can even act as a cleric or utilize a Perish Song set, also randomly it has access to U-Turn so there's always room for momentum switching via this attack even if it does nothing for damage.

    Shaymin - Just going to say, there's almost no reason not to run Shaymin due to how effective it is. It's one of the fastest natural things we have, and it's powerful as hell. Given that it's casual set allows it to hit everything not named Escavalier (and there's HP Fire for that), it's capable of just making people sack stuff in fear of Seed Flare Sp.Def drops and having to sack a possible vital Pokemon. Given that it's 4th move can be used for Rest or Synthesis and it's got base 100 bulk across the board, there's seriously no reason not to use this thing. I'll give it's actually not hard to kill it by some things, but usually those things end up only being stuff with Super Effective moves or having to be banded/specs/scarf to outright beat it. It's a low risk, very high reward mon.

    Tyrantrum - It's kind of a given that since this thing got it's HA, it'd be amazingly good. It's pretty much a force that you almost have to have a Rock resist on your teams now due to the devastation this thing causes. That means Ground or Steel types, or actually using Hitmontop b/c it works, but teams without it will have a hard time against DD, RP, and Scarf Tyrantrum sets. It also learns Hone Claws, meaning that against stall teams, it can set up to nuke them without missing Head Smash. Dual Stat sets with DD or RP with HC isn't out of the question either because it just becomes a mammoth beast that's barely able to regularly pull them off. Most Ground or Steels are actually really awesome right now, and every team should have one, but Tyrantrum would be the biggest reason you run those in the first place, because it's an immediate threat to you otherwise. Also CB is just a monster set.

    A Rank: Keep Delphox, Tornadus, Vaporeon, Sharpedo, and Rhyperior.

    All of them have their roles, Rhyperior is one of the best offensive tanks with access to SR, and has a fairly decent movepool to capitalize against different threats. Delphox has a smaller actual movepool to run, but being able to run a CM + 3 attacks that hit almost everything for neutral coverage, Sub+CM + 2 attacks for a STAB and their coverage, Trick sets, as well as Sub+3 Attacks makes it a fear some competitor and it isn't hard to pull off any of it's strategies. Also, with Grass Knot access it has a way to beat Bulky waters, so that's not really a problem NaCl, just it won't be OHKO'ing them. Vaporeon is the best wish passer right now and that's because it's a bulky water and scald is no risk unless you fight water absorb mons. Sharpedo just likes being an effective cleaner, and can hit stuff hard.

    Demotions: Aromatisse - Aroma is still a really awesome mon that is very easy to slot on teams. However, it's best for being a Fighting/Dark move absorber while being a Wish Passer, and well while there is still a strong presence of those, some of them that are coming into prominence now are capable of carrying moves that deal with Fairies. Add that it's also a lure to allow Doublade, Nidoqueen, Moltres, and others in to have a free turn of set up, and it then becomes a liability in certain cases. I wouldn't be opposed to dropping this A- or B+.

    Magneton - Still a very useful Pokemon, Steel Trapping really doesn't work with anything not named Escavalier really. HP Fire doesn't kill Steelix, nor does Magnet Pull trap Doublade, it's best bet really is to run Analytic and force switches to deal extra damage. It's still pretty reliant on Choice Scarf or Specs in most cases, and it's lacking speed and general predictability allows people to play around it because it's almost always carrying both Volt Switch and Thunderbolt, so an effective Ground type forces them to run HP Grass or Ice in good cases since HP Fire lacks some effectiveness. I think a B+ or B, heck even B- since it's still fully offensive and has a defensive niche that allows it to fire off a few powerful shots a game or basically force bulky waters to switch or die is pretty effective.

    Promotions - Moltres, Zoroark, Porygon-Z, Froslass, Mega Steelix (Maybe?)

    Moltres - No more Reuniclus being able to wall it based on shit Bird Accuracy, nor Cress, lost Hippo which could actually tank hits with a Sp.Def set. Moltres is pretty fricking good right now. SR is it's bane, but Specs Hurricane or just LO + 3 attack sets ruin stuff. It's got a great speed tier, fairy decent bulk, and access to Roost, and did I forget to mention 125 base Sp.Att with Fire and BIRD STAB is incredibly hard to resist? I mean you basically have to have a bulky water for it, HP Grass takes care of shit like Rhyperior or Seismitoad.

    252 SpA Life Orb Moltres Hurricane vs. 248 HP / 244 SpD Rhyperior: 129-152 (29.7 - 35.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
    252 SpA Life Orb Moltres Hidden Power Grass vs. 248 HP / 244 SpD Solid Rock Rhyperior: 285-335 (65.8 - 77.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

    Hell, that's pretty much enough you don't have to worry about predicting and fire off Hurricane or Fire Blast, and it'd still finish it off a large % of the time. Given the StallSubToxic is underrated, but marginally useful in the meta on certain threats, I think Moltres is due for a raise.

    Zoroark - If we're going to base stuff off flaws, Zoroark's only flaw is having bad defensive stats. It's ability is amazing, and in the early/mid game really can really mess with players with what you hide it with. It's always causing the mind game, is this the zoro to fuck with my lead or is it the real thing? That really gives away free Knock Off turns (FREE SPAM RIGHT @pokemonnerd ?), an awesome priority STAB in Sucker Punch, and very good coverage moves to hit multiple threats to it. U-Turn is also spammable. It's also got multiple gimmick hide and seek sets like Trick sets to fuck with balanced defensive teams, and just various all around team player use. It's not THE MON on the team, but it's literally the ultimate team player. The only downside to it, is that a well trained eye can tell it apart as the game goes on, and good players can adjust to that.

    Porygon-Z - Outside being a Normal type with meh defenses...this thing is scary. Adaptability, Analytic, and Download to pick from? As well as being able to run a coverage that includes Dark Pulse, Tri-Attack, Hyper Beam, Ice Beam, as well as the lesser and shouldn't really be used T-Bolt/Psyshock, capable of performing a dual dance set too thanks to Agility and Nasty Plot? Again this thing is scary, and outside fearing a few things faster than it, as well as a certain priority move (Mach Punch), it only fears a few fatass mons like Porygon2 or Registeel, but it's got its own ways around those with Trick and Choice Scarf (Specs sets destroy shit too). Moderate risk for LAZER REWARDS.

    Froslass - This thing doesn't need to do much. Spikes, Taunt as needed, if it's going to die Destiny Bond. Icy Wind is a useful thing to help force switches. It is its own spinblocker, and every Defog user is slower than it. Unless you use Scarf Flygon or Scarf Skuntank. Please, don't use Scarf Skuntank, it's bad. This thing itself requires multiple ways to work around, or playing smarter than your opponent's tricks to win against, with minimal damage. This thing should be A minimum.

    Mega Steelix - I'm not sure if A or A- on this thing, but it doesn't require much to do it's job. It sets up rocks, deals quite a lot of neutral damage to many things, and is a fatass Pokemon and Rest is actually useful on it. It hates every bulky water, 1 on 1's with Fire Pokemon (literally hates Moltres), Special Ground moves, and more or less most fighting Pokemon. Otherwise it's actually quite a powerhouse, and a lot of Pokemon don't hit it for near enough damage that it sometimes requires combo-Pokemon to kill it. A lot of things hate switching into it if it's not trying to set up rocks and they aren't a bulky water type. I mean it's not meant to tank stuff it's weak to anyway from the special side, but the worst of it is bulky waters and 1 on 1's with fire users.

    A- Rank: Keep Mega Abomasnow, Braviary, Durant, Exploud, Flygon, Goodra, Pangoro, Yanmega, Seismitoad, Slowking, Venomoth.

    Basically I'm fine with like everything in A- rank right now. Generally it's either speed or lacking attack power, or only being a useful niche mon (SEIS) to fulfill a role, and all these do it well. The only possible promotion that I won't chase after unless others want to see it is Goodra to A rank. As I feel it's versatile enough to be A rank, but somethings hinder it from being fully capable of the title, but perfectly fits in the A- rank mold. I can see where my fellow Tier Leader @NaCl comes in thinking maybe dropping Yanmega or Venomoth down a peg to B+, but Veno's main job isn't entirely sweeping itself (it can do that), but it functions as an awesome quiver dance passer to and outspeeds a lot of things, it's only down side is Sleep Powder Accuracy is bad. Yanmega hits stuff hard with Tinted Lens Specs, and already outspeeds a good 80+% of the tier. I think that's enough to keep it in this spot, despite some mishaps on it's own end from keeping it from being better.

    Demotion: Mega Camerupt - I love camel, but sadly it's poor speed and not that great defensive typing in the current tier leaves it hard to throw in a team and be successful, despite having raw power, SR, and being a good Rest Talk user. It fringes on living hits, and it's even slower than Mega Steelix and stuff like that. That being said, it still fits into a B+ Rank mold like NaCl suggested, that or B rank for "B"eing solid.

    Promotions: Draglage, Mega Glalie, JELLICENT, Gligar, possibly Sigilyph?

    Draglage -
    Lost many things that was a threat to it. Like Cress, Reuniclus, Cloyster, Hippo, Honchkrow. Amazingly bulky, highly offensive, very little will switch into a Specs Draco Meteor from this thing. I don't need to say much else, it's gotten better, but people aren't using it. Probably b/c other Psychic's can fill in and kill, but those are 1 on 1's.

    Mega Glalie - I honestly didn't think much of this thing, but I've underrated it a lot as the metagame changed. It can practically use every Dragon Pokemon and pretty much every defensive/stall type to Mega, and it's going to drill a hole into anything that isn't a Bulky water or pure steel thanks to its ability, it's pretty much a self-suiciding Pokemon, but what sets it apart is that it gets Explosion...which then becomes Ice type....which then makes it STAB....which gets BOOST further by Refrigerate. Not to mention it has EQ for Fire types and Steels to wear those down, it gains a heck ton of Speed narrowing what can actually outspeed it. If we're giving Mega Aboma a place in A-, I think for offensive based teams, Mega Glalie can fall in this area at least if people want a fucking "cool" (ha) offensive speedy Mega. Again...ICE TYPE BOOM with the equivalent of LO boost to it's damage with STAB. Either this, or B+ works, but I think it's at least A- material.

    Jellicent - This thing isn't Vaporeon. This thing isn't trying to do what Vaporeon does, it's a self-healing status passer. It's not a wish passer, it's a bulky water, and their roles are virtually the same. Jellicent has better Sp.Def capabilities, Vapreon tanks better on the Def side, Vaporeon does more damage, Jellicent has something that Vaporeon does not, and that is TAUNT and an immunities and resistance to certain types, all at the price of being weak to dark and ghost moves. (I.E. Knock Off will fuck this thing up, but the same kind of applies to Vaporeon without lefties). I admit that Vaporeon is a better slot on many teams, but Jellicent requires very little effort to build around, just don't stack Knock Off weak Pokemon, and it's pretty damn useful. Also, so is having a guaranteed Burn move it if hits, and not relying on Scald RNG.

    Gligar - It has Defog, it is one of the best physically defensive walls in the tier, access to Roost, multiple immunities, some very common weaknesses, and EQ/Toxic/U-Turn fills out what it's capable of supporting a team with. Also, it can learn Rocks too, but Defog is better. It takes little effort to use, it does it's job fucking fantastically. Also, it's not Golbat.

    Sigilyph - I think overall at least a raise from B to B+/A- would work for our funny shaped BIRD here. Not so much bias since it was my favorite LU Pokemon last gen, but it's got the coverage to 2HKO pretty much any threat it comes across. That usually means it'd like to force swtiches, and play prediction, but that'd put it more in B+ range. I figure since Cosmic Power is actually a lot more useful this Generation (it was shitty last gen ALL HAIL LORD ENTEI), and it's only down side is odds and ends of things that can mess with it's versatile sets act on opposite ends of the spectrum. The best way people would ideally deal with it is just playing through and setting what it's got, because it's not all "THAT" bulky, but it's faster than much of the tier, and has one of the best abilities to prevent it being stopped from setting up in Magic Guard. I'll let people discuss this one, but a small rise would fit.

    K, those were the actual important things, that I felt I needed to elaborate on, but now I'm just going to speed through some ideas for changes.

    B Ranks:
    Druddigon, Fletchinder, Gallade, Golbat, Heliolisk, Hitmontop, Meloetta-S, Milotic, Noivern, Shuckle, Spiritomb - All Stay B+
    Jolteon, Rotom, Rotom-C, Drapion, Qwilfish, Togetic, Uxie, Virizion - B to B+
    Medicham - Not listed to like B or B+? Probably B.
    Bronzong, Malamar, Skuntank - Stay B
    Claydol and Cinccino - B to somewhere way lower lol
    Clawizter, Eelektross, Dugtrio, Gurdurr, Mesprit, Tangrowth, Xatu, Lower stuff to B (ONLY REASON I ADD DUGGY IS BECAUSE REALISTICALLY WISE, IT'S JOB IS TO PICK OFF WEAKENED SHIT, WHICH IT'S GOOD AT, NOT BECAUSE OF MY SPECIAL SET @pokemonnerd )
    Registeel - B to B-/C+? Faces a lot of competition and well Thunder Wave vs Toxic sets and it being just there to absorb hits makes it less idea than others that can do it's job.
    Accelgor, Mega Audino, Mega Banette, Hariyama, Houndoom, Masquerain, Pelipper, and probably some other things I can't think of atm To B-

    I don't care much for C rank atm, and I'll figure out what to do with those later. This feels like I waste enough effort on though.
     
    Aurist and NaCl like this.
  17. Celestial Phantom

    Celestial Phantom YAHA

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    Accelgor - C- to C+
    Aromatisse - A rank to A-
    Barbaracle - Unranked to C?
    Clawitzer - B- to B
    Claydol - B to somewhere like C+
    Dragalge - B+ to A-
    Dugtrio - C to C+
    Eelektross - C+ to B
    Froslass - B to A
    Gastrodon - Not Ranked to B-/C+
    Gligar - B+ to A-
    Golbat - B+ to B
    Hariyama - Unranked to solid C+?
    Haunter - Unranked to something?
    Houndoom - Unranked to Solid B-?
    Jellicent - B- to B+
    Jynx - C to B- - This thing can be a bitch. That is all.
    Kabutops - C+ to B
    Kangaskhan - Unranked to C?
    Lanturn - C to C+
    Magneton - A rank to B
    Mega Audino - C+ to B-
    Mega Camerupt - A- to B
    Mega Glalie - B- to B+
    Mega Steelix - B+ to A
    Meloetta - A to A+
    Mesprit - C to B
    Mismagius - C to C+
    Moltres - A- to A
    Pelipper - Not Ranked to B-
    Poliwrath - B- to C
    Porygon Z - B+ to A/A-
    Qwilfish - B to B+
    Registeel - B to B-? (Best reason is that it sets up rocks, and tanks hits, but fails to do shit to teams/is set up bait)
    Rotom-C - B to B+
    Shaymin - A to A+ rank
    Shedinja - C+ to C- or D. Let's face it, literally anything worth using in this tier has a way to kill it bar some very few mons.
    Sigilyph - B to B+
    Sneasel - Not ranked to B-
    Spiritomb - B+ to B
    Togetic - B to B-
    Torterra - Unranked to C/C+? (I forgot this thing exists, but looking at the metagame, and top threats, it actually fills a niche nicely against a fair amount of things)
    Tyrantrum - A- to A+/A
    Uxie - B to B+
    Virizion - B to B+
    Vileplume - Unranked to somewhere....C+? (Quasi fills a defensive grass niche)
    Weezing - Unranked to C?
    Xatu - B- to B
    Zoroark - B+ to A

    Other things to consider, but can't think of a spot for: Move muk down to like C, y/n? Probably the same for Rotom-S? Samurott (unranked to something lower than B so anywhere from C to B-)? Kecleon is gimmick, but has a weird C- like rank? Piloswine?

    This is all I could think of.

    Figured, I'd just make an entire straight list of things to change, and eh, while I could edit this in my previous post, might as well not clutter that up with some of my reasonable explanations in my last post with this list. This list is the turnabout of some discussion with Aurist and Pokemonnerd on the server a couple days ago, most of it is just mine/NaCl's suggestions and actually giving them a definite spot still, with a hell lot more done. I actually did stuff with C rank Pokemon even! List is even in alphabetical order of stuff I think needs to be changed in some form, as we lost a lot of Pokemon over the last few months, and almost everything is due a rise, and a few things need to drop down a bit due to losing a step. I feel some people will question some of the choices or additions I want to add to the list, so I'll go ahead and address some of those in the next spoiler.

    Accelgor - Accelgor has some weird niche, a variety of options, and it's main job is to set up spikes, and generally suicide from that, or it can be a weak offensive mon after it sets up spikes. Access to a decent HP stat when invested and Final Gambit also has a unique niche, in that Accelgor almost means nothing to a team if it dies, but if it can take something with it, especially in an offensive tier such as LU where it's faster than everything non-scarfed, that's pretty much a great anti-lead/meta pokemon.

    Barbaracle - Physical Shell Smash user, and it's better than Gimmick Carracosta that's for sure. It's only bad thing is that all it's good moves have shit accuracy, it's only good water move is Razor Shell (doesn't even get Aqua Jet, stupid Gamefreak). It requires an lot of help to make work (at least a set of hazards, and both screens being set), but if it gets a smash off, it's an immediate threat to almost everything that isn't fat and physically bulky.

    Claydol - The only ghost it reliably beats is Doublade. It hits the one big bad ghost on that pretty much everyone runs. Loses to every other god damn ghost, and is only marginally good against other threats of the tier. So yeah, this thing probably fills only such a small niche, and requires everything else around it to do all the heavy lifting.

    Gastrodon - Niche bulky Water, has a role against the other waters, but doesn't like much of the offensive nature, and it's dependent on how you invest, and even then it hates a lot of the offensive stuff still regardless.

    Haunter - This is a good ghost. I can't give it higher than probably a B, but it's pretty offensive, and it's only hate in this tier is that we have Porygon2 and Goodra. It also likes having the help of some hazards, and the fact it's either running Choice Specs/Scarf or Sash only hurts it a small bit. I would like some opinions on where you guys think it should go, but I'm leaning towards B at the highest, B- at a realistic place, or C+ at its lowest.

    Houndoom - Faster than a lot of the tier, access to NP, even without the +2 boost, has the potential to 2hko everything that isn't Goodra/P2 and of that bulky nature. Also decently useful as a Sucker Punch user, has Destiny Bond. Hard to use b/c frail, but I think it warrants a B- rank.

    Pelipper - Queen Cirno has shown us the way of the Lord of the Sky: Pelipper! Seriously though, this thing has a small niche, but Defog, Roost, Scald, Slow U-Turn user, and has good physical bulk. It's a damn fine Defog user, though it has it's own troubles, and won't help kill anything, it's got a defensive niche that works for teams. Also it has Roost as opposed to Mantine.

    I think everything else is self explanatory when you look/think about them. But, I'd really like some opinions on some of these to confirm a more solid placement. If no one opposes/suggests otherwise, I'll probably just go ahead and do these by like Friday. Though opinions on entirely re-working a fair bit of the C rank, and maybe some B's is still appreciated.
     
  18. E.T.

    E.T. Random Slowpoke Super Moderator Server Administrator Articles Leader Super Moderator Server Administrator Articles Leader

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    Barbaracle does seem like C.
    What is the reasoning for moving Eelektross up two levels?
    Hariyama I'm not sure about because I'm not sure what niche it has. Maybe C.
    Haunter sounds good around B or B- like you mentioned.
    Houndoom seems like C+ to me because its frailty, LO recoil, and SR weakness can cause it to wear down pretty fast.
    Kangaskhan could probably fit in C.
    Magneton may only need to drop to B+ rather than B. It still has decent bulk, good defensive typing, good special attack, and a few different sets it can run.
    Lord Pelipper should probably be at least C+. B- seems a little high though.
    Registeel probably should drop a little because its passive nature does tend to make it a liability.
    Sneasle might be okay at B-.
    Spiritomb probably should drop back down since Reuniclus is gone.
    Torterra might be C- or D if listed at all because I'm not seeing where it has a niche against top threats.
    Vileplume is probably C+ or C. It has a lot working against it.
    Weezing would probably C+ or C. I feel like it's in a better position than Vileplume, but the myriads of Fire types that can switch into WoW can cause trouble for it too.
    Zoroark should probably be A- rather than A. It has an excellent ability, and it's very versatile, but I'm not sure that any of its individual sets are good enough to make it A.
    Muk would probably be fine at C.
    Rotom-S should probably stay C+.
    Samurott could probably be somewhere around C+ because STAB Aqua Jet seems like it could be handy (ask Kabutops).
    Kecleon should be C or C-. Protean can make it fun to use stuff like Drain Punch, Sucker Punch, Shadow Sneak, Ice Punch, and Knock Off. It can be used to setup rocks if you need it to, but it's probably better with an Assault Vest.
    Piloswine would probably be C. Thick Fat is nice for all the Fire stuff in the tier, but I feel like it doesn't have as much bulk or attack as it would sometimes like to have.
    I think I mostly agree with everything else.
     
  19. Celestial Phantom

    Celestial Phantom YAHA

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    Gonna fire these off in # order.

    1. Semi-Bulky Electric type with a safe haven of an ability for Electric types, that easily can be slotted into teams as a pivot and has a larger range of attacking options than any other good electric type we have. Basically, if you need an all encompassing Electric type to do a variety of things for a team, you're best option would technically be the floating Eel. Can run both Physical and Special sets, and has the move pool to back them up, the damage output isn't always amazing, but it's usually sufficient in matches to do it's job. It's probably do for a raise, in some form. Also name me another Electric that can pivot with Volt Switch or U-Turn, Spam Knock Off as it pleases, hit Ground types with a move that won't cause a recoil that usually forces you to switch which also recovers your HP, cause opponent's to lose Sp.Def from a move that is actually good to run that forces switches into free turns sometimes, as well as having stat boosting moves for your physical sets in three different forms. It's here to mess stuff up even if it's natural bulk is only average at best. Requires less support than stuff that C ranks rightfully require, in that at best it'd like some wish support, which there's a good 5 mons in the tier that can do that.

    2. Pretty much outclassed in terms of fast and hard hitting by Gallade, Medicham, and Hitmonlee. It's not a spinner and doesn't have intimidate like Hitmontop. What it does have is fat HP bulk, a large attack stat, access to Guts, and the only things it may ever need to hit stuff, Close Combat, Knock Off, and Heavy Slam. Given that Guts will actually activate when you are asleep, that makes a Rest Talk Guts set actually viable to it, though it's shaky. Also it's outclassed by every Fighting type that you'd use really, so that's why I'd suggest C/C+ rank for it. Probably closer to C+ just because it's going to dent stuff with CC and whatever else can get hampered by Knock Off.

    3. Eh, It's job was steel trapping, it's bulk is only average unless you have Eviolite. It'll be good to live at least one, hit but due to it's lower HP stat, it'll be hard pressed to actually live two neutral hits unless they are weak. I figured it'd be a good standard bearer in B for it can be helpful on a team, but it's average at best.

    4. It's better than Mantine, so either we move Mantine down, or we keep it 1 up. It's best competition really is from Golbat, who does it better since that gets Eviolite boosts, and Poison has a better resistance factor than Water really. Hm...looking at the chart again, I thought Mantine was C+ tier, but it's C, I'd be fine with it in C+ at least, since seriously, it's better than Mantine.

    5. Beats Doublade, strong check to Tyrantrum outside it running Ice Fang (it fucking tanks HEAD OAK SMASH). It would lose in 1 on 1's against many things, which is why I say C+ tier, but it's access to RP makes it formidable, it's also got all it needs in SR access, Synthesis, and Wood Hammer and EQ two very strong stabs, a RP sweeper attempt would also run Stone Edge for flying types. Just saying, this thing has 109 base attack, and decent defenses at 95/105/85. Also, even in a non sweeper role, nothing in the A ranks would want to switch into the support set outside the flying types and abomasnow. Also, it won't die in 1 hit to practically anything physical unless super effective stabs come into play. Won't live two really, and there's a fair amount that can fuck with it, but go do some calculations and see what potential it has to assist a team against common top mons.

    6. Only reason I put in B- is b/c it can run Physical or Special, has your standard, but great movepool for special, SD + Meghorn, Waterfall, AJ for a physical one, and decent offenses to back it up. Speed is pretty average, and it's ability to survive is questionable, but it's ability let's it actually take advantage of low HP for stronger Hydro Pumps.
     
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2015
  20. gengar17

    gengar17 someone turn this nothing into gengar

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    i'm gonna have to agree with CP regarding Houndoom, yes even though it's very easy to wear down from life orb, rocks and has poor defensive stats, imo its typing is great offensively. Mixed trapper with crunch fireblast sucker and pursuit does very well vs a big chunk of the tier, it completely walls and traps delphox, can crunch slowking/meloetta, fireblast doublade tangrowth and fire off powerful sucker punches which would help it pick off some mons. Its ability flash fire lets it also get "safer" switches vs some mons like typhlosion, and can just hit hard in general mons like nidoqueen, jellicent, etc
     
  21. Spoovo The Pirate

    Spoovo The Pirate Meep! Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    Torterra's great defensive typing is also something favourable for it, notably resisting EdgeQuake. Respectable bulk, serious power, utility in Stealth Rock and reliable recovery in Synthesis means it can stick around a while too. Far from perfect, but I can certainly see why somewhere in the Cs would be appropriate for turtle.
     
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2015
  22. E.T.

    E.T. Random Slowpoke Super Moderator Server Administrator Articles Leader Super Moderator Server Administrator Articles Leader

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    E.T.
    1. Eelektross should definitely move up for the reasons that you listed. I'm just not sure if it's as viable as stuff like Rotom-C since it has speed problems and still doesn't hit too hard unless it can attack for super effective damage which makes it prone to being worn down easier than might be expected. Also, it can't run Knock Off and Acid Spray at the same time without sacrificing Flamethrower, and the only set that I know of that actually uses U-Turn is a Choice Band set, which probably is very rare. I just seeing being more B- material than B.

    2. I completely forgot about Heavy Slam. Guts is usable, but Thick Fat probably isn't a bad ability either. Yeah, I could definitely see Hariyama at C+.
    3. The eviolite sets are what I had in mind when I mentioned bulk, but those have separate drawbacks too compared to the choice sets. B seems logical.
    4. Agreeing that Lord Pelipper is greater than Mantine.
    5. Okay, I'm convinced Torterra would probably work at C+. I didn't realize it got Synthesis, and EdgeQuake + Wood Hammer does make it pretty hard to switch into.
    6. Samurott would probably be okay at B- too because of the ability to run physical or special.
     
  23. NaCl

    NaCl noided, noided

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    Tyrantrum to A, Doublade and MSteelix hardcheck him, has not a brilliant type (a lot of unwanted weakness), also having STABs in HSmash and Outrage (well, maybe DClaw is enough) can be dangerous (low accuracy and lock :\); it is still one of the strongest Pokemon in the tier, and Banded HSmash destroys anything not called Doublade/MSteelix/Hitmontop. I think that mid A is its right place.
    Dugtrio to B-, I think it deserved it, it's a fantastic Suicide Lead and can trapkill some of the most dangerous Pokemon in the tier (Nidoqueen, Delphox, Heliolisk), its a bit underrated


    For all others Pokemon I'm agreeing with the changes proposed by CP
     
  24. Cirno

    Cirno Romantic

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    Can we move Masquerain up from C+, it's great. At least to B. Sticky Web + Quiverpass + Intimidate support works well as a decent combination, especially with nice special attackers like Exploud/Shaymin in the tier. It doesn't have 0 flaws, but it's definitely useful.

    I am being serious.
     
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  25. Celestial Phantom

    Celestial Phantom YAHA

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    The more I think on it....no. B should be regular Pokemon that for the most part you can splash on any team, and have no problems using. Masquerain doesn't have the defenses to actually be doing both Sticky Web + Quiver Passing. You also can't really send it out against most of the higher ranks of the tier unless they are fighting types either (except Emboar). It's defenses suck, and with the tier more full of Special Attackers, Intimidate only helps more against setting up on Fighting types. Also, back to those defenses suck, means unless a move misses, you aren't setting up Sticky Web and Quiver Dance together. You choose one or the other, and it's hard pressed to set up more than 1 Quiver Dance, where pretty much everything likes a +2 unless it's Shaymin or Meloetta.

    I wanted to move it at least to B-, but the more I thought about the arguments against it, yeah I don't think I can give Masquerain a raise, due to the harsh fight it has against most of the tier from B rank and higher.

    EDIT: Table has been updated. I like the way it looks a lot better, do you all agree?
     
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2015
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  26. Spoovo The Pirate

    Spoovo The Pirate Meep! Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    Don't forget its deceptively good defensive Quiver Dance set, with QD, Scald, Roost, and Bug Buzz/Air Slash. :3
     
  27. NaCl

    NaCl noided, noided

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    Just some thoughts for lower Ranks Pokemon:

    Haunter: B -> C, I think that B is too much, not having Focus Blast put it in a similar situation as Mismagius, though Mismagius seems better to me, (poison STAB isn't all that useful in LU), has better bulk, a good speed point (it ties with Zoroark, outspeeding Delphox and 100 base speed, while 95 base Speed isn't just that useful) and acces to Nasty Plot that makes it a better wallbreaker than Haunter, untill Mismagius will remain in C+ I think that Haunter should be lower.

    Articuno: C+ -> C-/D,
    really no reason to use it, Moltres is just better in all cases, also Ice/Flying is a really bad type (Ice doesn't add any coverage at Flying, while it add a lot of unwanted Weakness), I know it has some kind of "superior bulk", but its 4x weakness to SR really limitates its switch-in abilities as a defensive Pokemon

    Mega Banette: C+ -> B-, well, is a nice mega, I think that is a bit undervalueted, having 165 base atk that is kinda nice when paired with some priorities like Sucker Punch or (STAB) Shadow Sneak, it learns Knock Off (and Gunk Shot for fairies), and is one of the few Prankster user left in the tier (it also learns some cool moves to abuse that, like TWave, WoW, Taunt and Skill Swap. Also a double boost set is viable (Cotton Guard+Calm Mind), I think it deserves B rank.

    Cacturne: C+ -> C/C-, Cacturne is a so mediocre Pokemon in the current tier, there are a lot of better spikers, and a lot more better Dark Type in the tier; also its low defenses (grass/dark is an horrible defensive type) and low speed make really difficult to abuse of Sword Dance+Sucker Punch, also not learning Knock Off kinda sucks

    Dusclops: C+ -> C-
    , I really don't like it, what is this thing supposed to do? Spamming WoW and just sitting there to take hits? All others Ghosts in the tier have a lot more offensive presence, also almost all of the threaths it is supposed to wall may run Knock Off, to put it in an even worse position; just use Cofagrigus/Gourgeist/Jellicent/Spiritomb if you want a bulky Ghost Pokemon.

    Exeggutor: C+ -> C-, just same reasons of Cacturne, mediocre and really low niche in the current metagame (I really can't imagine a way to use this thing, is just outperformed in any sets you can think of him, even as a Sun Sweeper it suffers a lot of competition), also the Harvest strategy is so overrated, and with that type is not going to abuse it like Trevenant.

    Scrafty: C+ -> B, did I ever said that this thing is amazing? It gets wonderful abilities to make use of, and 2 different sets that works pretty well; yes, surely Pangoro is a better Pokemon overall, but Scrafty has better bulk and access to Dragon Dance, it also gets some cool stabs in HJK (or Drain Punch for BUp set) and Knock Off, that make it a bit difficult to stop if you don't have a fairy type, I think that mid B should be its right place.

    Stoutland: C+ -> C,
    with Hippowdon leaving the tier I really don't get the reason to use Stoutland, Kangaskhan and Bouffalant outperforms it as a bulky offensive Pokemon, still it has base 110 atk that's not bad, great coverage and Intimidate that makes it someway viable.

    Golurk: C -> C+,
    Golurk is an overall good Pokemon, it has great offensive stats, decent bulk and can make use of the infamous Dynamic Punch+No Guard, it is also a decent SR Setter and a Good AV user, should be a little higher

    Vivillon and Vileplume to C+: they are both more decent than intended, Vileplume is a cool wall with reliable recovery and can have some offensive presence thanks to Sludge Bomb (op 30% poison and 110 base satk) and Sleep Move, also it gets Aromatherapy that's pretty nice. Vivillon also can be a good offensive mon, compound eyes makes Hurricane and Sleep Powder reliable moves, and with Quiver Dance it can be a threath to not prepared teams.

    Omastar to C+: I don't get why it is so low, it is a cool rain sweeper (though it suffers from kingdra/ludicolo/kabutops competition), and it has access to shell smash and other cool things like all hazard (that's op lol), it can be a nice choice in some teams (at least C+, is very similar to Crustle/Dwebble, but it can have more roles)

    Rhydon to D: use rhyperior

    Ludicolo: unranked to C+, it is pretty nice its an awesome rain sweeper, got decent bulk and has acces to Leech Seed/Knock Off/Scald, that can be really annoying, C+ deserved because it can have a niche also outside the rain.

    Liepard: unranked to C, not all "roses and flowers" for Liepard, it's just not the dark type of tier, though is the only TWave prankster user along with MBanette that could have some sort of viability, I think it should be listed

    That are just my thoughts about what could be fixed in the lower ranks OoO
     
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  28. Celestial Phantom

    Celestial Phantom YAHA

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    Updated to remove the Pokemon that rose. So Doublade, Porygon2, Espeon, Shaymin, Vaporeon, and Doublade have been removed from the rankings.

    This will effectively change how many Pokemon are used since every single one of them were in the A ranks or higher. Added them to the front for now, but current unranked Pokemon are the new drops which are:

    [​IMG] Alomomola
    [​IMG] Altaria
    [​IMG] Chesnaught
    [​IMG] Cloyster
    [​IMG] Metagross

    I'd immediately figure Alomomola would take over Vaporeon's A rank spot. I can't see Altaria being good enough to be ranked for now since no Mega, and it's not that good, but if people want to try and fight for it's right, go ahead and try us if you can.

    Of course these huge changes happen right after we got done re-arranging like the entire thing too. Players must hate us for doing this.
     
  29. Spoovo The Pirate

    Spoovo The Pirate Meep! Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    I can see Metagross being at least A rank, seeing as its only real drawback is its average Speed, which can be mitigated with both Bullet Punch and Agility. Its STABs aren't brilliant, but AssVest Metagross sounds like a good initial set, because it straight up cockblocks prominent threats like Dragalge (Scald is annoying), while also being able to revenge Tyrantrum with Bullet Punch, iirc tanking a +1 Earthquake no problem.

    Cloyster... was on the verge of being suspected last time it was LU, was it not? Its shit Special Defence and Ice typing hold it back defensively, but it's obviously an offensive powerhouse with Shell Smash, likely putting it into A+, if not S rank.

    Momo's Special bulk is also poor, but if you pair her up with something like Dragalge, who resists its only weaknesses and packs great special bulk, or perhaps a cleric like Roselia, that patches it up fine. Strong Wisher that's basically impossible to kill when used right? Sounds like B+/A- material to me.

    Altaria... may deserve a D ranking. I mean, it's slightly more flexible than other Dragons in that it can be a defensive cleric thing, and its Earthquake immunity gives it a slight niche over Tyrantrum and Dragalge. Two useful abilities in Natural Cure and Cloud Nine too, so I wouldn't count it out completely. Might argue for a C-, but I doubt it.

    Lastly, Chesnaught. Full stop to basically all physical attackers, decent power, Subseeding prestige, and even a competent stallbreaker if you use Taunt and a bit of Speed investment (can see it happening bcus Alomomolomomolomola), and you've got a proper threat in the tier. One with great defensive typing too. Just keep it away from Special and Flying moves, and it'll serve you well. Somewhere in the As, I'm thinking.
     
  30. pokemonnerd

    pokemonnerd Only uso listens to pnerd. Devo too. Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoqueen Sludge Wave vs. 120 HP / 252+ SpD Alomomola: 230-270 (45.9 - 53.8%) -- 2.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

    Do not underestimate the bulk a high HP stat yields spoovo, because that also allows alomomomomomomo to do this as well:

    252+ Atk Tyrantrum Head Smash vs. 120 HP / 136 Def Alomomola: 262-310 (52.2 - 61.8%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

    Yes these are 2HKOs, but only taking this much from the tier's best wall breakers means it is bulky as shit. Plus it has mirror coat for Nidoqueen and other special attackers, which can kill Nido back with the lowest Earth Power damage roll. It makes up for not being able to deal damage in scald with having regenerator and gigantic wishes alongside only being broken by the most powerful of attacks and its own type weaknesses. The only thing it misses that vaporeon gets is Heal Bell, but it is much harder to kill in return.

    I'll post on everything else as I use and run into them.
     
  31. Spoovo The Pirate

    Spoovo The Pirate Meep! Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    Oh yeah, I'm well aware that Momo CAN tank a few special hits if needed. I'm just saying it's no Vaporeon or Audino.
     
  32. NaCl

    NaCl noided, noided

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    I think that Alomomola will take Vaporeon place, so A should be ok.

    Altaria is not all that bad, has decent bulk in both sides, has recovery, can be a beller and can also use bulky DD set (surely not the best DDancer in the tier lol), I think it could be mid C for now.

    Chesnaught is something a bit tricky, Fighting/Grass isn't the best type in a tier full of strong Psychic/Poison/Fire mons, though it has solid stats, access to spikes, leech seed and spiky shield, and can tank some strong moves like CB Tyrantrum Head Smash. Also the Belly Drum salac set isn't all that bad, it can get some unexpected kill, but is generally to slow for entirely sweep a team; I need to see this thing more but I think it can be a solid B+/A- Pokemon.

    Cloyster, aww, is just what it was before, annoying as hell but bulky waters can generally stop it, and now bulky waters are a bit more played than before, A-.

    Metagross, it is the big boss of this tier shift, it would be meta changing, has super high bulk sticked with massive 135 base atk, a good movepool (he can also go mixed with 95 base SAtk), can set up sr, and has some ways to setup himself for a sweep. Agility will fix its mid-low speed, allowing it to be an excelent lategame sweeper, while Hone Claws can be used to fix the low accuracy of its main moves and boost Atk against slower teams. Also choiced sets are really good, though it founds some difficulties against bulky waters (Slowking resists both stabs, and only fears the rare Thunder Punch, that's usually used only on choiced sets), think it should be A+ for now, we will see if it will get better when all these suspects are finished.

    Also some mons should definetely rise with Doublade and P2 leaving the tier:
    1) Slowking: someway it inherits P2 role of premium wall of the tier, though it is not all that bulky and has more weakness (but some cool resistances ;) ), also it checks some new things in the tier like Metagross and Cloyster, and prefers to have Alomomola than Vaporeon, to spam Scald without fears, think it should became A+ (Also Doublade was a solid threat for Slowking)
    2) Dragalge: without P2 there are really few things that can enter on its STABs without taking massive damage, also Poison/Dragon is a cool type that offers some cool resistances (combined with that bulk is definetely good), think it should be A+ too.

    Not sure about other things that can rise/drop atm


    I will update the thread (also with the lower rankings, as suggested before) when these suspects will end.
     
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  33. gengar17

    gengar17 someone turn this nothing into gengar

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    i feel that virizion's viability just got a pretty nice boost now that the most used pokemon and best counter, doublade, is gone. Its speed and typing and the fact that it can run physical or special set will allow it to set up (probably) on newcomers like alomomola and chesnaught. I feel it was already an underrated threat but now that doublade is gone, its very good offensive typing alongside its decent bulk and coverage should warrant it at least a A-
     
  34. pokemonnerd

    pokemonnerd Only uso listens to pnerd. Devo too. Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    It still needs to be at 100% to win against Chesnaught, since Zen Headbutt just barely secures a 2HKO with Life Orb(when it would love Lum honestly) against max defense Chesnaught and Drain Punch allows Naught to win against Close Combat spam. Plus if it can't get spiky shield predictions correctly it gets very messy for Virizion, though Naught should just be Drain Punching(or using Hammer Arm) 100% of the time.

    Still, it's no Doublade vs Viri match up so on the whole I'd agree with viri rising somewhere into the A's. Probably A-.

    @NaCl touched on it but Slowking rising to at least A is definitely defend-able. It's not the BW King it was but still, most of the higher tiered pokemon either hate switching on AV for multiple reasons(burn chances, getting caught by Fire Blast) or really want to avoid Twave from the full defensive sets. The S class bulk along with Regenerator is still there and still keeps Nidoqueen and Emboar honest in not just haphazardly throwing out moves that can't 2HKO it or spam STAB respectively, and is the reason why Escavalier speed creeps at all. Hell without Knock Off Hitmonlee would have a very hard time getting over Slowking as well and a whole lot of A ranked pokemon hate seeing a well played King. S is conceivable for it, if one would argue for that. And this isn't getting into the hard times lower ranked pokemon have against it.
     
  35. OUAzumarill

    OUAzumarill Active Member

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    As the Tornadus suspect is currently unanimously in favor of a ban, I think it's safe to say that it's not going to be sticking around for long.

    As a direct result of that, I would like to propose a rising of Swellow, Braviary, and possibly Moltres, as the tier will be without a Pokemon that directly competes with them at pretty much everything they do.
     
  36. Dr. Doom

    Dr. Doom Long time hater of stall

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    I'd agree with Moltres rising 100%. It's very powerful, reasonably bulky and pretty versatile. It can run a simple Roost + 3 attacks wallbreaker set, a defensive SubToxic set and a late game sweeper set with Agility. You could even run a Choice Scarf set, but I don't like using Choice items on Pokémon X4 weak to Stealth Rock (bar Ho-Oh). Definitely an A rank mon IMO.
     
  37. Celestial Phantom

    Celestial Phantom YAHA

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    I...what? Do you guys even take a gander at the OP? Moltres is already at A rank with Tornadus. I guess without P2 you can argue for higher, but it still has to deal with Slowking, Milotic, Draglage, Goodra, and Jellicent. Nothing there changes, as well as it can't spam Hurricane with Rhyperior, Bronzong, Mega Steelix, and Registeel around. Can't recklessly spam Flamethrower/Fire Blast with Druddigon, Seismitoed, Noivern. I mean it's fricking strong I get that, but a Specs/Scarf set does have it's downsides where a LO set at least has the chance to cover it's bases.

    Braviary is already at A-, I can't see that much changes that. I can understand with Doublade being gone, but Alomomola walls everything but the sub BU set, and Metagross can tank everything it has too. Cloyster is an immediate threat to it as well. I mean P2 and Doublade being meta defining mons and leaving don't auto bump this one because there's still a handful of checks to it that already existed, and that hasn't changed.

    Swellow...nah, there is still a lot of things it can't touch or kill where it's frailty will backfire and not let you even get a good sweep against any GOOD team. But, when there are so many better flying types still I can't advocate a rise just because Tornadus leaves.
     
  38. pokemonnerd

    pokemonnerd Only uso listens to pnerd. Devo too. Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    Moltres is already in A lol. With P2 gone I could see it going to A+ since Alomomola still gets 2HKO'd with a special defensive spread by Hurricane, but misses are definitely a factor in that and it's slightly unreliable. It can still roost on Alomomola safely which is a big thing to keep in mind. Fish is fucking weak as shit.

    One thing I think is definitely due for a demotion is Escavalier from A+. It's just not that great right now, since a lot of pokemon either 2HKO it from the physical side or use fire from the special side. Still an amazing Meloetta answer and keeps Exploud from spamming Boomburst but even Exploud can rid itself of it with a good read. Kingdra shouldn't be in the tier much longer so that's yet another pokemon it pretty safely checks leaving the tier.

    About tornadus leaving, the problem with rising Swellow and Braviary is that Tornadus leaving doesn't actually make these mons any better. Swellow still can't do a thing to monsters like Rhyperior, Mega Steelix and takes upwards of 50% from Hitmonlee Mach Punch, Zoroark and Emboar's sucker punch, takes a very hefty amount from Kabutops Aqua Jet and has other problems like depending on status. Specs Boomburst is nice as a surprise but that's all it is; once you reveal specs it becomes laughably easy to work around. Swellow isn't Exploud and Tornadus never directly competed for a move slot against it.

    Braviary is also played completely differently from Tornadus for one reason: Speed and priority Bulk Up. Tornadus is far more effective against offensive teams because it can buff that defense up before any other pokemon without suitable speed and priority could move, on top of having 111 speed for when it actually wants or needs to get its offense rolling. And even with Defiant, 111 speed is pretty damn fast to use Bulk Up with anyway. Braviary is just slow and is much more of a wall breaker, depending on Sub with BU sets to handle Offense in any capacity. If it was around 95 or 100 base speed it would be a great contender for rising but as of right now it's only as good as it was.

    If anything Doublade leaving and Chesnaught+Alomomola dropping is a reason to raise Braviary, since as I said Tornadus doesn't directly affect any of these pokemon's viability since it's not used in the same way, mainly due to its speed.

    I don't care if @Celestial Phantom just ninja'd me either.
     
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  39. Santuga

    Santuga Member

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    I guess I can drop my 2 cents on this.

    Alomomola is fine in A, seeing as it can provide imense support, but it can't wall such a big portion of the tier to make it climb all the way to S. I supose A+ is also fine for this Pokemon, and it will probably get there later.

    Metagross for A+, it lacks Speed to make it a huge threat right off the bat and has a few checks (Alomomola and Slowking for example) that stop it promptly, but due to the variety of sets and lures it can run plus the imediate power it packs with CB or even a HC set makes it a great asset on most teams, but I don't see it being S material. I don't see Stealth Rocks being too valuable since there are better mons that can use it.

    Cloyster is a tough one. I would see it as A+ because it requires Rapid Spin / Defog and hazards on the other side to warrant some KOs, but it can still be easily beat by other Water-types, which most solid teams pack. Should probably be suspected though

    Chesnaught could fit in A- or B+, it is a very good option as a Spiker and checks decently a lot of physical attackers, but it doesn't fare very well with the best ones in the tier. Belly Drum is nasty, but not as fast either to sweep entire teams.

    Haven't really thought about Altaria, but probably C, a cleric DD set with support for Fairy-types can really hurt most teams since they come unprepared.

    I'd like to propose rising Slowking. It just benefits from all the new departures and arrivals to the tier, and right now it's easily one of the most slappable Pokemon in any team, and with any set really. I would go as far as to put it in A+, but I wouldn't be surprised to see this rise to S in a near future

    Sigilyph is another Pokemon on the climb right now, seeing as Porygon2 and Vaporeon left (Doublade to an extent too) and the gain of new bulky mons that Sigilyph can easily deal with, it has a lot more going for it now, I'd propose A- or even A
     
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2015
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  40. Xdevo

    Xdevo Phrasing Super Moderator Tour Director Super Moderator Tour Director

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    Bunch of suggestions

    Remove Froslass - duh
    Slowking should probably go up to A, since it's now one of the few walls with offensive pressence, alongside sets like CM and Specs still being relevant,
    Haunter should probably drop to C, it's simply too frail, and not fast enough to be so high on the list
    Yanmega should be at least on the same level as Sharpedro, since it's about as good of an offensive cleaner, not to mention the Specs set.
    Noivern should definitely rise to A-, it serves both as a decent wallbreaker with Specs, and a decent cleaner / revenge killer, Switcheroo can cripple a lot of walls as well.
    Hitmontop can probably drop to B-, without Doublade, and with competition for spinning with Gligar, Hitmontop has lost a lot of its niche.
    Sneasel can definitely afford to rise to B or B+, it hits very hard with its STAB moves, and has the coverage to 2HKO a lot of the bulky things in LU.
    Zoroark could also rise to A+, it's ability is incredibly useful, while its STAB Knock Off hits very hard and can cripple things. It can gather momentum with U-turn, while still being fast enough to act as a pinch revenge killer. It's very unpredictable, and can make use of the free turns and predictions that it forces.