[ORAS] ORAS LU Viability Ranking

Discussion in 'Past Gens Discussion' started by Aurist, Feb 28, 2015.

  1. Aurist

    Aurist I do not jump for joy. I frolic in doubt.

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    This thread is for, as a community, discussing the viability of pokemon in LU and tiering them accordingly. Things will change frequently as the meta shifts and usage changes.

    This is both to give a clearer picture of the tier and potentially help people with teambuilding in LU. The higher rank a Pokemon, the more likely it is going to fit well into an LU team or be easy to build around.


    ---

    UNRANKED

    These Pokemon are new to the tier or the tier leaders want to test the viability of a lesser known Pokemon. These Pokemon are here for discussion:

    *
    *

    ---

    S Tier -
    S Rank is reserved for Pokemon who are extremely threatening and impact the metagame in a major way. These Pokemon can either fulfill a variety of roles or are superlative in performing one task on a team.

    [​IMG] Meloetta
    ---

    A Tier -
    A Rank Pokemon are the bread-and-butter of the tier, usually filling most roles in a team in the most efficient way the tier can offer. They will easily fit into a team and often define the style of play. They are not as overwhelming a presence as S Rank Pokemon but will almost always perform well.


    A+
    [​IMG] Emboar[​IMG] Flygon[​IMG] Goodra
    [​IMG] Mandibuzz[​IMG] Shaymin
    A

    [​IMG] Alomomola[​IMG] Ampharos (Mega)[​IMG] Arcanine[​IMG] Delphox[​IMG] Dragalge
    [​IMG] Jellicent[​IMG] Klefki[​IMG] Rhyperior[​IMG] Rotom[​IMG] Rotom-C
    [​IMG] Rotom-H[​IMG] Sigilyph[​IMG] Steelix (Mega)[​IMG] Toxicroak
    A-

    [​IMG] Absol[​IMG] Aromatisse[​IMG] Braviary[​IMG] Chesnaught
    [​IMG] Cloyster[​IMG] Durant[​IMG] Exploud[​IMG] Fletchinder
    [​IMG] Gligar[​IMG] Gurdurr[​IMG] Hitmonlee[​IMG] Milotic
    [​IMG] Seismitoad[​IMG] Sneasel[​IMG] Vaporeon[​IMG] Virizion
    ---

    B Tier -
    B Rank Pokemon are less easily able to slot into a team as A Rank Pokemon, but are still able to fill a role well and be a presence in the right team. Pokemon which may be slightly outperformed by higher ranks but nonetheless still fit well, and Pokemon which have a threatening but small niche may be in this rank.


    B+

    [​IMG] Druddigon[​IMG] Escavalier[​IMG] Gallade[​IMG] Glalie (Mega)
    [​IMG] Jolteon[​IMG] Magneton[​IMG] Malamar[​IMG] Meloetta-S
    [​IMG] Samurott[​IMG] Shuckle[​IMG] Smeargle[​IMG] Spiritomb
    B

    [​IMG] Archeops[​IMG] Bronzong[​IMG] Drapion[​IMG] Golbat
    [​IMG] Hoopa[​IMG] Kabutops[​IMG] Mesprit[​IMG] Musharna
    [​IMG] Qwilfish[​IMG] Sawk[​IMG] Scrafty[​IMG] Skuntank
    [​IMG] Togetic[​IMG] Uxie[​IMG] Xatu
    B-

    [​IMG]Audino (mega)[​IMG] Banette (Mega)[​IMG] Camerupt (Mega)[​IMG] Clawitzer[​IMG] Eelektross
    [​IMG] Granbull[​IMG] Hitmontop[​IMG] Jynx[​IMG] Poliwrath
    [​IMG] Registeel[​IMG]Scyther[​IMG] Tauros[​IMG] Vivillon
    ---

    C Tier -
    C Rank Pokemon have notable niches in the metagame, but usually require significant support. These Pokemon face competition for their roles from the higher ranked Pokemon but can find still find use.


    C+

    [​IMG] Aggron (Base)[​IMG] Accelgor[​IMG] Barbaracle[​IMG] Carracosta[​IMG] Claydol[​IMG] Cofagrigus
    [​IMG] Crustle[​IMG] Gastrodon[​IMG] Golurk[​IMG] Gourgeist-S[​IMG] Hariyama[​IMG] Kangaskhan
    [​IMG] Lanturn[​IMG] Ludicolo[​IMG] Masquerain[​IMG] Mismagius[​IMG] Monferno[​IMG] Omastar
    [​IMG] Pelipper[​IMG] Regice[​IMG] Rotom-S[​IMG] Shiftry[​IMG] Trevenant[​IMG] Weezing
    C

    [​IMG] Articuno[​IMG] Drifblim[​IMG] Gorebyss[​IMG] Klinklang[​IMG] Liepard
    [​IMG] Magmortar[​IMG] Mantine[​IMG] Mawile[​IMG] Muk[​IMG] Piloswine
    [​IMG] Quagsire[​IMG] Roselia[​IMG] Torterra[​IMG] Typhlosion[​IMG] Zangoose
    C-

    [​IMG] Ariados[​IMG] Bouffalant[​IMG] Cacturne[​IMG] Cinccino
    [​IMG] Dusclops[​IMG] Exeggutor[​IMG] Kecleon[​IMG] Miltank
    [​IMG] Sandslash[​IMG] Steelix (Base)[​IMG] Vileplume
    ---

    D Tier -
    D Rank Pokemon either have an extremely small niche in the tier or are generally outclassed by higher-ranked Pokemon in a majority of circumstances.


    D

    [​IMG] Ambipom[​IMG] Hitmonchan[​IMG]Leavanny[​IMG] Pyroar
    [​IMG] Swellow[​IMG] Tangela[​IMG] Torkoal
    If you feel any Pokemon is too low, too high, or missing from this list, please make a post detailing your reasons why. If it's compelling or enough people agree, it can most likely be changed. Except Hitmonchan that's not up for debate :cool:

    Make sure you make posts with solid reasoning and speak from experience, posts that are clearly theorymon are discouraged and may be deleted or infracted.

    Thanks to all those who helped this list get put together.
     
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2016
  2. Spoovo The Pirate

    Spoovo The Pirate Meep! Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    Not sure if there's a problem with the spacing or not, but they're all bunched up. If they're supposed to be like that though, I'm sorry lol.

    And this wouldn't be from experience, due to obviously having not used it yet, but I see Sheer Force Feraligatr hitting A Tier easily, if not S. A bulky, extremely powerful sweeper that can function with a Life Orb and not take recoil from it? Deadly material right there.
     
  3. Aurist

    Aurist I do not jump for joy. I frolic in doubt.

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    They are all bunched up, because I'd rather they be bunched up and visible than shoving them in a spoiler tag, otherwise the post would be wayyyyy too long, there's too many Pokemon. I tried to make it as not-ugly as possible but there's only so much I can do, lol. Hopefully it's still legible.
     
  4. Spoovo The Pirate

    Spoovo The Pirate Meep! Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    Oh yeah, it's perfectly legible, and easy to understand. I just thought I'd check if it was intentional or not.
     
  5. Aurist

    Aurist I do not jump for joy. I frolic in doubt.

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    Thanks to @Crystal Moogle we now have table formatting so I could make this prettier and better to read :] hopefully should be good now
     
  6. E.T.

    E.T. Random Slowpoke Super Moderator Server Administrator Articles Leader Super Moderator Server Administrator Articles Leader

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    Should Mega Absol really be S-Rank? That seems a little high to me, but maybe I just haven't seen it that much.

    Hitmonchan deserves much higher than D. Its main role is to spin, but Iron Fist is a great ability that makes Drain Punch, Mach Punch, and Ice Punch (if used) pretty strong after the Life Orb boost. I've been using Earthquake over Ice Punch recently to help with Doublade, but Fighting/Ground coverage isn't as good as Fighting/Ice. It has decent special bulk, and it's very good at revenge killing frail offensive mons. I think it deserves at least C+ or B-.

    As for the unlisted Pokemon:
    Feraligatr (sheer force)-> I think B+ or A- would be a good minimum starting point. Sheer force will basically allow it to turn former 2HKOs into OHKOs and 3HKOs into 2HKOs all while improving its longevity by mostly eliminating Life Orb recoil.
    Pilowswine-> C or C+ because it sets up rocks, has good bulk with eviolite + Thick Fat, and can OHKO Flygon with Ice Shard. Doesn't seem quite bulky enough to stop key offensive threats in the tier, but it can dish out a lot of damage to them before dying.
    Rotom-F->Unlisted or D, keep this in NU. Scarf set would probably be the only set worth using, and that's going to need good Hail support for Blizzard. Things like Porgon2 will wall this for days, but has to be careful not to be Tricked.
    Dweeble->Unlisted. This isn't LC. Why would you use this when you could use Crustle?
    Golem->D or C-. Weakness Policy can make it a good offensive SR setting lead, and Sucker Punch can slightly atone for it's low speed. Custap is better being used by Gigalith.
    Gigalith->C- or C. The return of Custap Berry is the only saving grace for this thing, so that it can set up rocks, boom, and start building momentum for the team. It's pretty predictable though and can be played around.
    Drifblim-> I would say C+ or B- because it has a few different sets that it can run, (Sub Calm Mind with Sitrus Berry, Resto Chesto Calm Mind, mixed Endure+Weakness Policy, etc.) but it absolutely hates priority. Fortunately for it, it's immune to Mach Punch and Fake Out.
     
  7. Spoovo The Pirate

    Spoovo The Pirate Meep! Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    I'd presume Dwebble's there for similar reasons to Gigalith; suicide setting. Jolly 252 HP / 252 Spd was an uncommon set that worked last gen.
     
  8. Aurist

    Aurist I do not jump for joy. I frolic in doubt.

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    Dwebble specifically is faster than Crustle (55 vs 45 is significant) and offers similar if not entirely equal levels of support to a team that Crustle does. It's similar to why you'd use Magneton over Magnezone in some teams in some tiers. It's arguable that Dwebble is actually a better Custap hazards mon than Crustle is.

    I really like Drifblim in the current LU meta of quite fast offensive teams, it's always a good anti-meta mon especially with sub acro dbond wow sets, it suffers a little from the prevalence of knock off/sucker in the tier but it's still pretty ok. I'd definitely agree with C+, B- seems a little kind for its level of niche
     
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  9. ZoroDark

    ZoroDark i know everything

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    i don't see all the hype with sheer force gatr. sure it's cool it won't take lo damage when you use waterfall/ice punch and that makes the dd set a lot more viable. on the other hand you're now a lot more susceptible to status and swords dance is probably still gonna prefer torrent. idk i think in the long haul it's not gonna be that big of a difference except dragon dance will be the most common set for a while now. i think a- is good for it.

    hippowdon on the other hand is easily an a mon though. it's the most reliable physical wall in the entire tier and while it kinda needs all the defense it can get, it can still function really well as a physical wall too. sand is really scary with stoutland too. i think all of base absol, base aerodactyl and base sharpedo should all be dropped at least a rank. they are all eclipsed by their mega forms (only aerodactyl's lead set plays differently and that one's not b+ worthy) and that should be made a little more clear.
     
  10. Aurist

    Aurist I do not jump for joy. I frolic in doubt.

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    I would argue that Aerodactyl is only outperformed by Flygon as a Defogger in the tier as well as a general utility mon, it easily deserves B+, suicide hazards set doesn't factor any more. Absol, people forget that as of gen 6 it has ability 100% crit making it one of the better wallbreakers. I definitely can agree with Hippowdon going higher, the support it provides while still being a top notch wall is pretty superlative.
     
  11. Celestial Phantom

    Celestial Phantom YAHA

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    Yeah, I tried to convince Aurist that M-Absol was more A or A+ tier, but I didn't have the time to continue to argue, and figured we'd let the playerbase decide if they think it's S worthy or A+ or lower. Honestly, I think it's more A+ rank since it can't stand up to bulkier pokemon without repercussions, and it's not like Raikou who (even though frail) could momentum shift out with volt switch.

    As far as the others, Gatr just got released, we really need to let things settle before we actually decide where that gets placed (same for possible typhlosion sightings). Hitmonchan at least would be a strong-ish C for me. It's not really that great of a spinner against teams packing a ghost or honestly anything that can take some good physical hits, since it kind of finds itself in a grudge match to wear opposition down, otherwise it's just prediction reliant on it's Drain Punch + auxiliary moves. C+ is stretching it for me. More or less agree with all except Dwebble / Drifblim. I mean Crustle>Dwebble since it can tank hits + CUSTAP, but Dwebble if it goes anywhere is either unlisted still or D at best as a suicide lead hazard to get to something stronger to take advantage of said hazards with ease (i.e. not having to wait to sack said lead hazard user). Drifblim I'm not touching til I actually try it in the tier a bit.

    I think overall B+ for it is fine as it is. Yes it's an amazing physical wall, but like it's restricted to SR + Slack Off with WW or Toxic supporting it and EQ as it's attack move. No more no less, generally it's pretty predictable to see coming, and needs support to keep some of the real hardhitters of LU out of it's way to set up. I can see where you are coming from especially with the others among it in the B rank, meaning I think maybe we need to redefine some of the A's that might be more B inclined than really strong A rank.

    As far as the Bases go, yeah I can see most of them dropping one or two spots, but if any stays in it's spot, it's Sharpedo. LO Sharpedo with Speed Boost is still one of the stronger pokemon in the tier, and LO boosting all 3 attacking moves it has (as well as giving the ability to run the sets as mixed) is useful, as well as not being locked into a mega and losing the possibility of it's gained +1 speed against something that will force it out. Aero probably can go to B since it's good at being a SR setter and Taunt user, but sadly it's damage output is minimal and overall it's more niche use with predictions than being able to stop teams.

    As for other changes:
    Tyrantrum (A- to B+ or even B) - Still not touching this till I actually use it, but I let aurist have the hype go on this, but I probably sense that outside banded Tyrantrum, it might still find a hard time setting up DD without facing some repercussions or taking some serious damage.

    Mega Absol (S to A+ or A) - said above, I think it has a somewhat hard time getting to a end all be all pokemon to get S rank cred. Knock Off is insanely good, Sucker Punch is good priority, Superpower let's it have a good auxiliary against pokes like P2, but as for a last move (generally Swords Dance), it almost rarely finds a time to use that unless it's fighting crappy balanced teams or stall teams.

    Aromatisse (A to A-, B+, or even B) - Aromatisse is still an insanely good cleric for the tier, but I think it's lost a bit of luster especially with how the tier has kind of shifted to a bit more power induced meta somewhat. Moonblast is capable of putting a dent into things with average sp.def, but overall it's such a one trick cleric that it can lose to a lot of what's around the A ranks pretty easily.

    Slowking (A to A- or B+) - Don't get me wrong here, I love Slowking, one of my favorite BW2 LU pokemon, right next to sigilyph. But, we can't deny it has lost a step or two this generation with LU being a home to strong Knock Off users, and more powerful physical AND special pokemon than what made it a corner of almost all LU teams last gen. (Things like Sharpedo, Knock Off Hitmonlee, Absol, Yanmega, Banded Emboar/Tyrantrum?, Shaymin, Honchkrow, Porygon Z, BOOMBURST EXPLOUD, Clawitzer) A lot all over that can actually 1 or 2 hit KO the once amazing special wall, now it can obviously still tank the mediocre hits of less powerful pokemon and recover off with slack off when needed, but it's not exactly the former glory it was last gen from even some of the most powerful special hitters.

    Meloetta-P (A to somewhere lower) - I have yet to see one of these ever used, and maybe it's because of that, but physically Meloetta-P seems more limited to taking on things with mediocre bulk (things that are fast and hit hard, but don't tank a hit) and being faster than them. It just feels or is speculative that Meloetta-Aria just outdoes it with the special perspective being so much stronger despite the slower speed.

    Milotic (C to C+ or B-) - Just because it fell to NU b/c people forget about it, Milotic is one of those water types that literally has everything people want in a water type, recovery, scald + ice beam capability combo, and an ability that makes opponent's regret trying to use status as you become an near unkillable or almost unkillable wall. Faces strong competition from other water types with water absorbing abilities or just better bulk (Slowking is still here damn it), but it is still one of the better mixed defenders we have access to.

    It's like 10:30 PM here and I have to wake up at like 6 AM to work, so like this is just some minor stuff I wanted to get out of the way, but just some two cents of mine. I feel there could be a lot of switching around or changing in the B rank honestly, but I don't know exactly what with how a lot of things rose on us, I kept asking myself where the hell is cress on this list before I realized it moved to UU finally lol. Anyway I'll find aurist and we'll discuss some more changes later, feel free to keep posting though.

    Last note:
    I honestly regret giving you that one Defog Flygon set which in it's own right is moderately medicore. I mean our best form or hazard removal is imo Starmie then Hitmontop as spinners, then not so many good defoggers as they'll lose out on something (power/speed generally or move slot) in Aero, Flygon, Golbat, Togetic, and "Skuntank". Of which, 2 are defensive and set up prone, while 2 would rather have diff moves than Defog (well Flygon has it as a 4th on Scarf/Band sets generally, but almost never has use for it), and skuntank is well it's skuntank.
     
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  12. Dr. Fomantis Toboggan

    Dr. Fomantis Toboggan man in the couch

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    I think all the A's are pretty good except that Hippo needs to be A- big time both having the ability to set up weather and just being a bulky ass tank that with a bit of spD investment can counter Jolteon and magneton and can take physical hits from the likes of Mega Aggron and a +6 Slurpuff. Hippo, Aggron, and Rhyperior are without a doubt the best setters for rocks.
    I don't think I've seen one non-mega Absol. Does he really deserve B+? Are people using scarf or something?
    The C's have some dank pokes, like Sawk instance. The only viable full counter is Aromatisse who's 2ko'd by Poison Jab and Granbull who probably deserves a mention somewhere, not somewhere good, but at least above Ariados. What's the point of him if there's Shuckle? And ya gotta love Swellow but with Mega Steelix, Mega Aggron, Klefki, Doublade, Rhyperior and those other big mean guys in the tier I think he belongs in the D's. I think Lilligant deserves better as it can be extremely difficult to deal with having to predict around Sleep Powder and Quiver Dance so that the right poke is asleep. The Hidden Power choice also makes it more difficult to check, as Escav's overcoat won't mean shit if it's fire and same goes for Xatu if it's rock. Poor Houndoom :[
    That's all for now :]

    Edit: Noivern outspeed most of the non-mega metagame, has perfect coverage with Flamethrower, two strong STAB moves, keeps it real with U-turn, and has a great abillity to boot. I'd say at least B+ material. Also I'm not saying Duscnoir should go anywhere above a C but I think it deserves a mention as well. Oh and Hariyama. He's gotta be somewhere in there.
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2015
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  13. Aurist

    Aurist I do not jump for joy. I frolic in doubt.

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    OK so we have some shifts to make with the new meta so everybody is encouraged to post on how things change for a lot of pokemon, as well as ranking Cresselia, Gallade, Medicham, and Vaporeon! No pokemon is off-limits for change in tier at the moment, except Hitmonchan lol.

    Edit: ESPECIALLY Registeel and Steelix Mega, who can easily leap way higher now
     
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2015
  14. Spoovo The Pirate

    Spoovo The Pirate Meep! Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    I'd say Vaporeon deserves somewhere in the A ranking. Solid typing, a great glue mon that can answer several big threats in the tier (Cloyster being an obvious one), and Aromatisse is the only thing in the tier that comes close to challenging it as a Wish passing cleric. Aroma has the advantage of being untauntable, but Vappy has Water Absorb and far greater overall bulk.

    I see Gallade and Medicham competing for roles in just about every sense, seeing as they have the same typing, same base Speed, both have fun coverage options (Leaf Blade, Shadow Sneak, Knock Off vs Bullet Punch and Fake Out.

    Gallade's got the better movepool and Swords Dance, but Medicham has more immediate power, and it's a better momentum grabber with Fake Out. Hmm... not sure where to put these two...
     
  15. pokemonnerd

    pokemonnerd Only uso listens to pnerd. Devo too. Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    Like I mentioned in the potential suspects thread I don't have much experience with LU's current metagame, but these are just some things I've noticed and a few things to add since this could stand for an update of some kind:

    Cresselia to at least A, if not a definite A+ or S. If we're ranking Porygon2, who's gimped by Knock Off and Toxic(and burns, residual damage in general hurts a lot actually), so high because of its defensive abilities, then the one pokemon that can match them without eviolite should be right there with it imo. Basically guaranteed status platform, can switch between Moonblast or Shadow Ball to chip away at Dark types or Doublade on switches(I mean lord Skuntank beats defensive Cress anyway) and obviously lives the most brutal non-SE moves with health to spare. And even talking about super effective moves, Mega sharpedo barely secures a KO with Crunch. With Rocks up and Cresselia having no EVs in Defense. Only extremes like banded Emboar secures a 2HKO.

    ROTOM-N also needs an inclusion and I'm very surprised people just up and forgot about it. Fitting solidly into B+, this thing is slightly more of a hit and run poke that has surprising utility. LO Sub(WoW)/pain split, Specs sets, can Trick on Porygon2 and a number of walls, puts Hitmonlee without Foresight into guessing games with Sub, Hitmontops without Payback basically lose to Sub Rotom, can take Hitmonchan elemental punches like a champion and outspeed to burn in the first place, things like Cobalion and Escavalier have problems dealing with it. The list goes on and on. A well played Rotom can seriously fuck up a lot of teams I've seen and run into in my limited time playing now. Especially since Krookodile was banned long ago.
     
  16. Aurist

    Aurist I do not jump for joy. I frolic in doubt.

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    I've made a number of quick additions and adjustments to the ranks though a lot of stuff is up in the air still.

    Cresselia to S
    Kingdra and Nidoqueen rose to A+
    Honchkrow gone
    Flygon (fall) and Vaporeon to A
    Braviary (rise), Cloyster (fall), Slowking (fall) to A-
    Dragalge (fall), Milotic, Pangoro, Exploud, Registeel (all rises) to B+
    Togetic (fall), Rotom to B
    Glalie (Mega) (fall), Sawk (rise) to B-
    Dwebble, Masquerain, Shedinja (all rises) to C+
    Dugtrio (fall) to C

    These are tentative placements given the current situation of the tier, I'd like a lot more input on adjusting things please
     
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2015
  17. NaCl

    NaCl noided, noided

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    Aromatisse to B+ even if is on of the stronger check to dark and fighting types in the tier, with the ban of Honchkrow and MAbsol and the arrive of Vaporeon Aromatisse seems to be a bit underwhelming; Vaporeon outperforms it as a Wisher and Beller, being able with better SAtk, and better offensive type, to not be a free switchin for CMinders and to the best Steel/Poison/Fire mons in the tier

    Klefki to A/A+ it's never useless with prankster, being able to cripple faster threaths with priority TWave, it has one of the best combination of defensive types for the tier and it can also set up priority Magnet Rise, gaining an important immunity to Ground moves; it's also one the best spiker in the tier, contending with Qwilfish, and also one of the best Screener

    Heliolisk to B/B- one of the best Electric mon in the tier, has a better coverage than Jolteon, double STAB, good speed and SAtk and a nice Water immunity with Dry Skin and can also have a niche into Sunny Day based teams as a sweeper, surely not C
     
  18. Weavile

    Weavile Phoenix

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    Lanturn: Move up to C+
    I hate Lanturn for my own personal reasons but I feel like its great typing and ability combo, good movepool and interesting stat distribution make give it niche enough to be C+. Especially compared to the two mon I'm boutta mention.

    Rotom-S and Articuno (and kinda Regice too) down to C.
    Articuno especially is horrendously weak to rocks and finds itself unable to stand up to much of the meta. Sub Toxic can annoy Cress or P2 but beyond that it finds itself at a loss in many cases in this meta. Its resistances don't tend to give it many edges on other flyers.

    Rotom-S is ok I guess but I just feel that it's outclassed as a flying type by Braviary, Moltres, Yanmega, Tornadus and Sigilyph and as a Rotom by Rotom and Rotom-C. I just don't think it's that good.

    Regice I don't really care much about but I feel like it's not great.

    Tornadus I would argue A- for at least, probably A. Its typing is cool, it has some great stats, an absolutely ridiculous movepool and two extremely good abilities. It can perform a bunch of roles pretty damn well.
     
  19. Draciel

    Draciel ALLEZ! ALLEZ! ALLEZ!

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    Tornadus-I -> B+ to A/A+
    One of the biggest threats in LU atm, mixed LO set with Hurricane/Knock Off/Superpower or Heat Wave is extremely threatening. Also has two excellent abilities to abuse so definitely deserves a higher ranking.

    Stoutland -> C to B
    With Hippo in the tier, it's very threatening with Sand Rush, and it can be a powerful late-game cleaner. Kinda redundant without sand though.

    Rest look fairly ok to me, or has been mentioned already.
     
  20. Aurist

    Aurist I do not jump for joy. I frolic in doubt.

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    I think people are really heavily overrating Tornadus right now. Firstly when I was making this list to begin with everyone tried to convince me that Tornadus is lower than A, and since then its situation has only gotten worse and worse. When you look at the top mons in the tier and how they interact with Tornadus it just has a dreadful time, without a Defiant boost it fails to KO just about everything, it threatens out very little and can take few hits, I think B+ is the best it's gonna get right now because we have more reliable offensive flying type threats in the tier that don't auto-die if something doesn't go their way. The only thing it has going for it right now is mixed IMO, which is a good enough set to leave it at B+, it's worse at physical than Braviary, worse at special than Moltres and Yanmega, and worse at support Whimsicott.

    I can definitely agree with Klefki, Heliolisk and Stoutland rising, Lanturn seems fair enough too. Rotom-S has an awful lot of competition so I can see why it would fall.

    Sub Toxic Articuno is a threat that few defensive teams are prepared for, I couldn't agree with it falling personally but if others agree then sure.

    Regice is a surprising threat and I feel like more people should consider it before discounting it. It easily beats any common non-SE special attacker in the tier even after SR, 252/0 lefties taking a max 35% from Nidoqueen, 36% from Specs Yanmega, 51% from Specs Exploud (consider that's 252/0), etc.

    There's a couple more things I think could fall and rise:

    Quagsire is rapidly losing its niche with few things that boost left in the tier, beating those was its only niche and the tier has a good handful of bulky waters that don't sometimes lose to unboosted physical mons. I think it belongs in C+

    Xatu has a dwindling niche too, noone really uses it, it lacks power and bulk and now loses to some good SR setters like Camerupt, Steelix, Hippowdon sorta, etc. Noone really wants to run it when they could just as easily spin or defog with a better pokemon. C+ or C imo.

    Seismitoad really fits in the tier well right now, it's a great bulky/utility water, it's not the bulkiest thing in the world but it always does a lot in a game and fits nicely in a lot of teams. B+ I think would be fair.

    Noivern is a bigger threat than any of us really accounted for, it matches up super well with all the best mons in the tier and I think could go B+, or B if people aren't that convinced.
     
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  21. Just Do It

    Just Do It No one cares

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    In the current LU meta I find both Scrafty & Pangoro doing excellent jobs dealing with most balanced threads as well as some offense.
    Solid Dark/Fighting type with Knock Off+Drain Punch which fairs really well against the current S tier (forcing Cresselia to use Moonblast) & well as some in A.
    There are but a few solid counters against them like Golbat/Aromatisse (unless Gunk Shot Pangoro) which can be handles by Steels, so I'd say they're really viable!

    Anyways, I'd suggest to move Scrafty up from C+ to B+ & Pangoro maybe from B+ to A- since he hits hard without the need of setting up.
     
  22. Spoovo The Pirate

    Spoovo The Pirate Meep! Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    I've been having a lot of success with AssVest Pangoro, actually. Deals a shit-ton to just about everything with its raw power, and hell, Cress just barely 2HKOes it with Moonblast:

    0 SpA Cresselia Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Pangoro: 144-172 (43.5 - 51.9%) -- 9.8% chance to 2HKO

    So yeah, I'd definitely be in support of raising it up a bit.
     
  23. E.T.

    E.T. Random Slowpoke Super Moderator Server Administrator Articles Leader Super Moderator Server Administrator Articles Leader

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    I think Spiritomb should move up from B+ to A- or A. The CM set does a good job of checking Reuniclus, Porygon2, and Cress if it lacks Moonblast, and I've found that Spiritomb can be a very good win condition. As a bonus, it can spin block too, but it has to be careful around Foresight Hitmontop.
     
  24. Joyverse

    Joyverse Back for a blast!

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    I second this.
    I have seen it in use and afterwards have used it too. The only trouble it would have would be Foresight Top and like mentioned above Moonblast Cress. And it also a good switchin to Hitmonlee since the only move that hits Spirit neutrally does-
    252+ Atk Life Orb Reckless Hitmonlee Knock Off vs. 252 HP/252+ Def Leftovers Pressure Spiritomb: 97 - 116 (31.9 - 38.2%) -- 0.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers
    which gives it plenty to rest and talk.
    So for me A- seems fine.
     
  25. Celestial Phantom

    Celestial Phantom YAHA

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    I'd have to say that Tomb probably should stay where its at. Might do a good job at checking those Pokemon, but overall against a lot of the tier, Tomb sadly finds a huge problem in its armor for different reasons.

    1) CM set, Tomb lacks any form of reliable recovery, so you are forced to use Rest. It needs multiple CM's to be a force, as well as not die to conventionally strong special attacks (like needs +3 value). Also, not to be a sitting duck means Sleep Talk to 1 in 3 the boosts or attack, so no real chance of having WoW to burn physical threats unless you wanna get hit possibly for 2 turns.

    2) It only has two (four) other sets in a conventional Trick, CB, Wisp/Foul Play support type, and the gimmick Curse Split. All of which themselves can be useful, but are average too since it's movepool is limited to some weak offenses, but are priorities.

    Sure it acts as a check for some more conventional stuff, making it pretty useful for anti-meta strategies you'd come across, but in the same spectrum, it loses to multiple Pokemon because it needs multiple boosts to be able to with hold their offenses, would require WoW to beat/hinder others, and can't reliably heal damages while keeping up an offensive front.
     
  26. pokemonnerd

    pokemonnerd Only uso listens to pnerd. Devo too. Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    Spiritomb's also in the unfortunate predicament of not having any nice resists to capitalize off of to use its support moves if you're not CM or choice. Pain Split keeps you alive decently well to keep pestering Reuniclus, Escavalier and Doublade but if you get caught with a Knock Off losing lefties really hurts survivability. It just generally has too much trouble against a lot of the hard hitters across the A tier as well.

    Pain Split can and does work decently on CM sets, it's a bit better early and mid game than as a final late game sweeper. Just keep you HP EVs low, Tomb has pretty nice defenses to keep it going as long as you're not trying to leech off of a non-burned Tyrantrum or something.
     
  27. Dr. Doom

    Dr. Doom Long time hater of stall

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    I really don't think Claydol should be in B Rank. If you want a Rapid Spinner Kabutops and Hitmontop are better suited as the former has enough offensive presence to avoid being set up fodder while the latter has Foresight to get around Ghosts. Claydol is just so passive, and is also let down by a lack of reliable recovery. C+ tops IMO.

    I also think Virizion could be bumped up to B. It can sweep physically and specially with Calm Mind and Swords Dance, has a nice Speed tier as well as good special bulk and valuable resistances in Ground, Water, Electric and Dark. Flying types do make it cry though...
     
  28. Spoovo The Pirate

    Spoovo The Pirate Meep! Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    ^It can also be a good lure. CM with Close Combat can really surprise opponents.
     
  29. Joyverse

    Joyverse Back for a blast!

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    Suggesting Gallade to be somewhere in the lower A's or higher B's. Jolly Gallade (MAX SPEED-284) outspeeds Adamant Hitmonlee and it has some quite niche moves like Stone Edge (Which KOs Braviary, Tornadus and Noivern) on the switch and Earthquake that almost OHKOs Mega Camel. Now that Mega Pedro (RIP Mega Pedro) It does not have the problem of being KOd being by its Crunch (Sigh). Knock Off+Close Combat with or without SD come handy in handling defensive threats like P2 and Steelix, and Knock Off comes handy against Evio Doublade and Cress. Zen Headbutt/Psycho Cut are still usable in this tier but I rarely find any use for Psychic STABs unless it is Melo's Psyshock.. well that is my 2 cents on Gallade.

    ^That too. I think it'll suffice in B as it outspeeds lots of key threats including Brav (unless scarfed) that takes a sufficient amount of damage from SE/CC before it dies (RIP)
     
    Last edited: May 5, 2015
  30. Twerk

    Twerk End Game Team

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    I'd say that Mega Audino is entirely out of place. When I saw that he was D+ I was shocked because he is a very decent mega. With 103/126/126 Defenses, it is incredibly hard to break this mon. While it only has two sets(CM and Cleric), he executes them very well, which is why I'd nominate him for B or B-
     
  31. Celestial Phantom

    Celestial Phantom YAHA

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    I could possibly agree to a rise from D to maybe C or C+ rank, but overall Mega Audino isn't as good as other pokemon in it's position. You can't fit it entirely onto most team archetypes because it takes up the valued mega slot. Tbh, we did lose most of the best megas anyway, but the position being open for Mega Abomasnow, Camerupt, Banette, or Steelix is better. Clerically, yeah it can tank most standard hits, but it lacks leftover recovery, a good ability, and some of the power of the other clerics to support a team offensively. If it were a singular fairy type, it'd be a hell of a lot better, but being part normal means that you are neutral to the many fighting types in the tier, as well as us having a lot of hard hitting steel types, and mixture of powerful pokemon.

    It fights for a spot where overall Vaporeon or Aromatisee are infinitely better and can be slapped onto more team builds. It also doesn't help its case that there are multiple pokemon with abilities and types that help absorb status and moves that cause status on most teams, that cleric role isn't all too helpful outside wish supporting a team.
     
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  32. Spoovo The Pirate

    Spoovo The Pirate Meep! Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    Mega Audino does have one significant niche in being the best Knock Off sponge in the tier (imo) pre-mega, because it takes basically nothing from even boosted Knock Offs (252+ Atk Choice Band Krookodile Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Audino: 129-153 (31.4 - 37.3%) -- 80.2% chance to 3HKO (just an example), and can spam Regenerator and Heal Bell before Mega evolving, then sweep late game with Calm Mind.

    Nothing gamebreaking, I know, but it can be very difficult to deal with in the right hands.
     
  33. NaCl

    NaCl noided, noided

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    Krookodile is not even LU, and most knock off user in the tier aren't even Dark Type (Hitmonlee and Escavelier), and they both hurts MAudino a lot with their own STABs, while Aromatisse can tank most of Hitmonlee hits, and Vaporeon can do the same with Escavelier; there are no reasons to use MAudino above Aromatisse or Vaporeon.
     
  34. Spoovo The Pirate

    Spoovo The Pirate Meep! Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    Oh, I know Krook's not LU. I just used it as an example of a powerful Knock Off. And the reason to use Mega Audino is that it won't lose its item to Knock Off, meaning it'll reduce the power of the move. Vaporeon and Aromatisse will.
     
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  35. Celestial Phantom

    Celestial Phantom YAHA

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    Alright so, I made a few changes most notable:

    GOODRA - UNRANKED NOT ON THIS TABLE AT ALL BECAUSE WE DON'T KNOW WHY.... --> A-
    Mega Audino - D --> C
    Ampharos - C- to removed, it moved up.
    Gallade - Unranked to B+

    So yeah, Goodra apparently has been unranked for the longest time. Kind of a heads up that I figured it was an A- or B+ worthy mon, due to what it can do for teams, if people wanna debate a really real proper place, go ahead. Removed amphy, because it's gone. I did move Mega Audino up a spot, it's utterly outclassed by Aromatisse and Vaporeon in cleric roles, the only thing it has going is that it's pretty damn hard to kill with general attacks thanks to massive HP and 126 base defenses, which gives it a really small niche to using fairy typing to its advantage. Especially compared to other pokemon in the C ranking, it deserves better than D, but I can't give it higher than C+ unless the tier changes a hell of a lot. Gallade is an extremely good pokemon in multiple ways in the tier right now, and it needs little help doing its job which is to break through walls by setting up. Some limitations on sets can hinder it, or power can be a problem to break through without having a set up move/item, but it's extremely useful for a fighting type.

    Medicham needs to still be ranked, and honestly we need to redo a lot of the rankings list in my opinion, but we can see what happens come June for redoing the whole thing based on what arrives and leaves.

    Edit: Tornadus - B+ --> A
     
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2015
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  36. Joyverse

    Joyverse Back for a blast!

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    Wait what? Goodra is LU?
    Guess I am not the only one who didn't knew that.
     
  37. Edna

    Edna Chasing the Dragon Forum Moderator Forum Moderator

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    Medicham for A/A-
    Excellent attack, can run several sets such as Banded/Scarf/Sash/Life Orb, it makes huge holes even to stuff like Hippowdon. It hits like a truck and I believe it is extremely threatening to LU
     
  38. Cirno

    Cirno Romantic

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    Fletchinder for A- (or whatever you see fit) pls. Prio Acrobatics is great and with a meta of fighting mons, it is always useful. Steel/Rock-types that switch in get burned so it's not like they can freely just force it out. It also beats Mega Abomasnow and frail stuff so it's fun. Bulky waters are its bane though :(

    Also Froslass is C??? I know Klefki is better but??? I mean if you want to be hard on it, at the very, very least B.

    Heliolisk is also better than C, I think, and Drapion looks better than C+, probably.

    I forgot to mention Shuckle oops I was going to. What Weavile said, B+.
     
    Last edited: May 5, 2015
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  39. Weavile

    Weavile Phoenix

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    Meloetta-S - I would put this down to A-, it's a solid mon but its gimmicky limitation can be really felt sometimes and I don't think it fully makes up for its problem. It's still plenty usable but I wouldn't put it with consistently great mon like Doublade, Tornadus, Flygon etc.

    Klefki - Klefki has its share of problems but it is by far and away the best spiker LU has, and LU has a couple decent ones. I'd move it up to A, it consistently performs against Pokémon like Meloetta, Tornadus, Aroma, Braves, Venomoth, Yanmega etc.

    Whimsicott - Whimsi is a little like Klefki in that a consistent way to make itself useful (unless you're Cirno and miss all the time) through priority paralysis is really good for it. But Whimsi has more of a general support and potentially offensive focus, Encore is huge and LO sets are good. I'd say it's versatile and good enough for A-

    Dragalge - Dragal is so insanely powerful. Draco meteor rips into anything not a fairy and Sludge Wave easily destroys those. Its best checks are AV Slowking and Sdef Klefki, both of which are great Pokémon but beyond them almost anything is going to suffer at Dragal's hands. So I'd move this up to A-

    Golbat - Golbat is one of the most consistent defoggers in the tier.If not the most consistent. Great defensive typing and awesome bulk make it extremely useful. It doesn't like Knock much but even without Eviolite its resistances can still let it perform decently. Considering cress is soon to be kill, I'd put this up to A- as well.

    Porygon-Z - This isn't the best Pokémon in the meta and I would go as far as to say Dragal is better, if only because it's different. Porygon-Z is a monstrous hitter though. Nothing is quite so strong in LU and I would say that would earn it a place in B+

    Bronzong - I don't understand why this is B-, it's a great steel type, it has advantages over Registeel and Steelix, and some disadvantages, but I'd say it balances out well enough to make it into B+ with them.

    Shuckle - This is the best webber in the tier imho. I'd put this up to B+ just for how crushingly good at webbing it is.

    Sigilyph - It's better than Xatu, B imo.

    Poliwrath - I feel like this isn't that good. You can't throw it on any team the team has to be something it fits well in. I'd say that description better fits it to C+

    Tauros - I love Tauros as much as the next guy but I really don't see it standing up to the walls LU has to offer, nor the other physical attackers. Its speed tier is neat but beyond that it really doesn't have much going for it. C+ at best imo.

    Audino (M) - I feel you've underestimated this thing. It's not the best mega LU has but it's at least as good as Banette, probably better tbh. C+ imo.

    Froslass - Froslass is the second best spiker in this tier if you ask me. After keys. We all know what Froslass does I don't need to explain it. All I will say is that I believe in this meta that function should earn it at least B, more likely B+

    Gorebyss - Smashpass is good. Smashpass is better than Regice or Masquerain. B- or C+ imo.

    Eelektross - I feel like C- is a huge underestimation of Eel. I'd even go so far as to move this up to B-, but more likely C+. It's such a useful Pokémon in so many circumstances. No unassisted weaknesses great special sponge with AV, immune to paralysis, extreme coverage. It's just great.

    Jellicent - Ok it may have fallen from Grace but C- is a bit far. It's still really fat, it still has a fast-ish Taunt, it still has WoW, it's still a spinblocker. It's still decent. I'd put this in B- or C+ as well.

    Hitmonchan - I appreciate what you're doing here and it's true nobody should use Hitmonchan. But looking at it I would say it's probably deserving of C at least.

    Fletchinder - Currently unranked, not sure why. Fletch is an extreme threat. I don't feel I need to go into detail as to why it's an extreme threat. I'd put it in B+ or even A-
     
    Last edited: May 5, 2015
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  40. Aurist

    Aurist I do not jump for joy. I frolic in doubt.

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    Made some changes:

    Klefki to A. Meloetta-S to A-. Exploud, Whimsicott to A-.

    Shuckle, Porygon-Z, Fletchinder, Heliolisk, Seismitoad, Noivern to B+. Froslass, Sigilyph, Bronzong to B. Drapion, Medicham, Ninetales to B-.

    Jellicent, Eelektross, Mega Audino, Gurdurr, Archeops to C+.

    Some of the other things are a bit more debatable, I'd like to hear additional opinions.

    I also feel like in the current state of the tier our A tiers should be more packed than it actually is, I think a lot of stuff could debatably go higher including Dragalge, Golbat, Pangoro, Registeel, Mega Steelix. As well as debating whether some things deserve to rise within the A tiers themselves - Shaymin, Vaporeon, Braviary, Hippowdon, etc.

    I'll fix the layout shortly, it's gotten a bit messy.
     
    Last edited: May 5, 2015