[WIP] Lapras

Discussion in 'Gen 1 Analyses' started by Feena, Feb 13, 2015.

  1. Feena

    Feena New Member

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    Lapras is a bulky pokemon with a powerful stab blizzard that can hit hard as alakazam psychic. Is the best para fusion user in the metagame making it a dangerous threat.

    Parafusion Lapras

    Blizzard
    Body Slam
    Confuse ray
    Thunderbolt/hyper beam/sing

    Probably this is the most popular set, it needs little prediction and some luck. Blizzard is it main attack, hitting hard pokemons like exeggutor, golem/rhydon, tauros, snorlax and having a chance to freeze something like chansey or starmie. Confuse ray is to paralized pokemons making it easier to kill without getting damaged. Body slam is for alakazam, chansey and jynx who resist blizzard pretty well and can hit Lapras hard. Body slam is the safiest way to kill a weaken pokemon, save some PP and put some pressure while parafusing alakazam, chansey and jynx. If you want a finishing move against those pokemon, hyper beam is the best idea. In that case you should replace thunderbolt, losing coverage against starmie, cloyster and slowbro.
    Another option to replace thunderbolt is sing, is a good move to put chansey or snorlax to sleep both pokemons that don´t like that. If your oponent don´t know you have sing and sacrifices his sleep pokemon you can sleep another one in the late game, that is always a good idea.

    Check and counters

    Chansey switches easily and hit lapras with supper efective thunderbolt, but be aware with parafusion and hyper beam variants that with some luck can kill chansey. Exeggutor can mega drain lapras, and do some damage but don´t like being hitted with blizzard. Starmie receive little damage and can hit hard with thunder bolt, forcing lapras to switch out.
    Zapdos has stab thunderbolt and nice crit chance, but is weak againts blizzard. Gengar can carry thunderbolt too and have high crit rate, but it don´t like switching in a blizzard attack.


    Sorry for my broken english, I going to fix errors ASAP. If I miss something, or find some mistake you can PM me =)
     
  2. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom Active Member

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    Yes. Of course, it kinda wishes it had Thunder Wave and Recover like Alakazam and Starmie do.

    Remember that it can't paralyse Tauros/Snorlax/Chansey anymore.

    Also remember that parafusion is not synergistic. Parafusion isn't better than the sum of its parts; in fact, it's worse.

    STAB Blizzard is good, yes. Remember, however, that Lapras' crummy Special and Speed mean it'll still usually fail to 2HKO Tauros.

    No. It's for anything that you think you'll be tangling with for 4+ turns - that you won't be switching out of but which can stand up to Lapras' attacks. This usually means Recover users (Rest users don't take the full brunt thanks to Rest's wasted turns still counting vs. CRay's duration). Confuse Ray helps quite a bit against unparalysed Chansey, as it gives you a slightly better chance of landing the freeze. Paralysis means Confuse Ray is less useful (but still worthwhile vs. Chansey).

    Alakazam is still hit harder by Blizzard than by Body Slam.

    Body Slam cannot paralyse Chansey, remember.

    I'd prefer to lose Confuse Ray, to be honest. Hyper Beam on its own gives you a similar chance to beat Chansey to Confuse Ray.

    Snorlax won't be switching into Lapras under most circumstances. Remember that RBY Snorlax doesn't have 318 SpDef yet.

    And you should, again, probably be replacing Confuse Ray since Confuse Ray's main use is against Chansey and Sing already gives you a shot at that.

    Good luck having Lapras still around in the late-game, but yes this is kinda a no-brainer. Of course, most good players will be aware of the possibility of Sing, and it's not exactly guaranteed to land.

    Read this, it's the full calcs for that.

    Mega Drain does less than Psychic, and as Egg is outsped and 2HKOed it's not remotely a check let alone a counter. But it is quite dicey to switch Lapras into Exeggutor, because if Psychic procs a specfall on the switch it's forced right back out. Exeggutor also has a surprisingly good matchup when unparalysed against paralysed Lapras - but, of course, most players accept paralysis on Egg in the opening.

    Thunderbolt 3HKOs, so it's still not a Chansey-level wall, and Starmie absolutely loathes paralysis. Thunder's worth consideration, too; it's a 2HKO.

    Guaranteed 2HKO both ways, but Lapras can freeze or miss. Zapdos is crippled by taking a STAB Blizzard, but it is technically a check (though not a counter).

    Eh, it's not even a guaranteed 3HKO - Gengar's special bulk in RBY is quite impressive. But no, nothing really wants to switch into Blizzard except another Ice-type.

    There's also Jolteon; it's only 3HKOed and usually 2HKOs back (the crit rate doesn't hurt either). Psychic Slowbro has a pretty decent shot at getting rid of Lapras, particularly if Lapras is missing Tbolt or if it can get Amnesia up before getting Tbolted (Lapras' crit rate isn't exactly spectacular).

    Rest is an idea. Reflect + Rest is rather hard to kill; only Psychic and Thunderbolt pose much threat. But Lapras typically wants to use its movepool.
     
  3. Ortheore

    Ortheore One beautiful monster

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    ninja'd by m9m but I cbf changing what I wrote

    I definitely think Sing should be slashed with Confuse Ray. I really don't think Confuse Ray is essential for Lap, especially since with Sing, you should be incapacitating your #1 parafusion target. Sing is pretty self-sufficient but it's much less consistent than parafusion (lol).

    Maybe mention somewhere that a major benefit of parafusion is that it generates lots of free turns to bring threats like Rhydon in.

    C&C I think could maybe use a bit of work
    Egg isn't a check at all, it's slower, Ice weak and MD is pretty ineffective.
    After Chansey idk, everything becomes pretty shaky, some things I'd mention are
    Starmie is easily #2 check, could maybe mention that it isn't 2HKO'd by Tbolt
    Alakazam, Gengar, Jolteon (tbolt for the latter 2, Zam is bulky enough). All 3 take a ton of damage though.
    Zapdos is better mentioned as a revenge-killer since it really can't afford to switch into Lap
    Maybe mention Jynx? Outspeeds, can't be frozen, STAB Psychic. Takes a lot from BSlam though
    Random ice types can help by sponging a Blizzard here and there

    ok I read m9m's post, and I think his points are good
    Dropping either Tbolt or CRay works, neither one is truly essential or irreplaceable. They're just useful
     
  4. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom Active Member

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    I'd disagree. Parafusion forces you to commit to it and then still gives a <55% chance of working, whereas Sing doesn't really force a commitment since you can use it as Chansey switches in. If you hit something else, you can still take Lapras back out and conserve it, whereas if you try parafusion on Chansey and it doesn't work Lapras will be paralysed and probably heavily damaged as well.

    Doesn't give a huge benefit. If you C-ray paraChansey as it comes in, switch to Rhydon, and they switch Chansey out, you've taken a 3/8 chance of them getting a "real" move vs. you not getting off a "real" move at all (whether they predict Rhydon is of course another matter). If you'd doubled to Rhydon as Chansey came in, you still wouldn't have landed a "real" move, but they wouldn't have that 3/8 chance either.

    Of course, if Chansey is already in when you're C-raying it, it gets a little better.

    It's not a check or counter, certainly. But it's worth mentioning that Lapras isn't a full counter to Egg either, given that it's often touted as one. (Stun Spore more so than MDrain IIRC; the key point in any case is that STAB Psychic is deadly in Special vs. Special matchups.)

    I'd have to agree; it's obviously nowhere near as good as Chansey, but what it has over the rest is that the threat of Starmie coming in and just soaking a Blizzard means Lapras is going to be throwing out its weaker coverage moves more, which makes it much less of a threat in general. None of the other checks are nearly as good at blunting Lapras' offensive potential vs. other stuff.

    Well, yeah, Cloyster makes an okay pivot, but it's risky. Articuno is so obviously a bluff that it probably won't work. The only other Ice-type in OU besides the aforementioned Jynx is Lapras itself (Tbolt decides that matchup).

    True enough. But if you don't care about Starmie walling you to kingdom come, you're halfway to swapping out Lapras for Cloyster.
     
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  5. Feena

    Feena New Member

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    You can´t paralize normal types with body slam, but snorlax and chansey are not hard to paralize with your other pokes

    Why do you think that both status are worse?


    IMO it worth the risk



    I don´t understand why you say that confuse ray against a paralized chansey is less useful






    Well maybe this is a personal opinion but I don´t find thunderbolt useful against starmie (who has t wave and recover) and slowbro (who can use amnesia and then rest)





    Starmie usually switch in in a predicted blizzard, you can predict that and use thunderbolt but then staying is not a good idea



    I agree




    I gonna add this.
     
  6. Ortheore

    Ortheore One beautiful monster

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    I was totally not aware that people claimed Lap countered Egg lol.

    Feena, I'm pretty sure m9m doesn't mean that they're worse together. They're still better with each other, but they partially cancel each other out. In this case it's that combining 25% chance of fp with 50% chance of confuse doesn't give you 75% of being immobilised, but instead it's 62.5%. It's like if you add 1+1 and get 1.5 instead of 2; 1.5 is still >1, but it's not as large as it should be (just as an example).

    I guess I should probably elaborate more on what I'm thinking of when I say parafusion helps generate free turns. I definitely wouldn't rely on parafusion to bring Rhydon or even Tauros in on a fresh Chansey. I meant that parafusion allows you stay in and chip away at Chansey and force a predictable Softboiled attempt, with a significant chance that it will fail, in which case, you don't need to create anything when Chansey comes back in (heck, you could even go for the KO). If you're bringing something risky like Tauros in (you generally shouldn't be, but it's possible), you could also potentially have parafusion dissuading it from staying in and Twaving

    As for stuff on Tbolt, sure it doesn't 2HKO Star, but iirc it doesn't take much residual damage to turn that into a 2HKO. So against a paralysed Starmie it doesn't take a lot of damage for you to then be facing a potential KO (though your opp should really switch in that instance). Unparalysed Starmie is irrelevant in this case, because you should be BSlamming to fish for para

    Tbolt is still crazy useful against Bro- you really need tbolt somewhere on your team to pressure Bro without resorting to explosion mindgames or w/e

    Good stuff so far Feena
     
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  7. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom Active Member

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    Yeah, this. Confuse Ray lasts on average 2.5 turns, takes 1 turn to use, and gives a 50% chance of turn loss, for net gain of 0.25 turns (assuming they stay in and wait for it to run out).

    If they're paralysed, it still lasts on average 2.5 turns, still takes 1 turn to use, but only denies them their turn 37.5% of the time (because 25% of the time they've already lost their turn to paralysis, and that multiplied by the 50% of confusion is 12.5%). This gives a net loss of 0.0625 turns.

    As such, Confuse Ray is less useful against paralysed opponents than fresh ones. Its use in those cases is solely in upping the variance - giving some hope to an otherwise-hopeless matchup - rather than actually creating turn advantage on average as it does against fresh opponents.

    Getting through Starmie with Tbolt is much easier than getting through Chansey.

    Getting through Starmie without Tbolt is significantly harder than getting through Chansey.

    You try and paralyse it with Lapras' own Body Slam or something else, and then either go straight for the kill with Tbolt or call Lapras back and wait for the next opportunity to bring it in (at which point Starmie can't counter Lapras any longer).

    Lapras certainly isn't a reliable Slowbro counter, but when the crab comes out you want to hurt it as much as possible, as fast as possible, preferably with whatever you already have in, so that you can force it to Rest and get some breathing room. Lapras' Thunderbolt can accomplish that, while the rest of its attacks only tickle (making Lapras setup bait).

    You paralyse it first. Predicted Starmie -> Body Slam. Predicted paralysed Starmie -> Thunderbolt. If you don't have Thunderbolt you can paralyse Starmie but it still walls you because of its bulk/Ice resist/Recover.

    IIRC Isa claimed that.

    Ya.

    Specifically, it means you can force Slowbro into Resting before having to switch Lapras out. Many more options open up for defeating Slowbro when it's asleep.
     
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2015
  8. Ortheore

    Ortheore One beautiful monster

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    Bumping because I'm kinda wondering if anything's happening here and if I can take over this lol. @Feena are you still working on this?

    Personally I'm leaning towards separating parafusion Lap and Sing Lap into 2 different sets- I remember discussing this ages ago with Lutra and they really do play quite differently- one requires para support and is aimed at creating free switches for other stuff, while Sing sets aim to incapacitate Chansey and then attack with their top check removed
     
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  9. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom Active Member

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    One thing I didn't mention that perhaps I should have is that the Lapras vs. Cloyster 1v1 is a lot more even than you'd think. Cloyster needs 18 Clamp hits or so to get Lapras into Hyper Beam range, which is 6 Clamp uses before Lapras gets two Thunderbolts in. Clamp's accuracy is 75%, so that's roughly even odds.

    Does Sing Lapras pick different moves for the rest of its set than CRay Lapras? Because I mean if not, there's nothing to stop you just slashing it and then noting it in the set description.
     
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