RBY OU Missing Analyses

Discussion in 'Gen 1 Analyses' started by sulcata, Feb 8, 2015.

  1. sulcata

    sulcata stéphane curry best waifu Forum Moderator Server Administrator Forum Moderator Server Administrator

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    http://wiki.pokemon-online.eu/page/1st_Gen_Tiers

    Currently the Wiki has analyses for the following Pokemon:

    Despite these Pokemon having analyses, they likely need updating in light of new ParaSlam mechanics on Normals and overall metagame shifts. Also I'd like to know who wrote these so we can credit them on the forums Isa says it was some guy named Omanyte mostly, but it was overall a mixture. These were salvaged from the old wayback machine's copies of the old Wiki.

    The following Pokemon currently are in need of analyses:
    • Exeggutor (page was 'saved', but it wasn't readable) Very Important
    • Jynx (was not saved by the wayback machine) Lower Priority
    • Lapras (was not saved by the wayback machine) Lower Priority
    • Tauros (was not saved by the wayback machine) Very Important
    • Victreebel (no analysis) Lower Priority

    If you'd like to contribute or update an analysis, reserve it in this thread. If updating an already written analysis, post a thread with the original analysis in spoiler tags, and then start making changes in the rest of your post. If creating an analysis from scratch, post a thread with a skeleton of your analysis so that others can critique it more easily before you write it up. Once it reaches the Grammar Check stage, I will upload it to the Wiki and wait for @Samphire and her Grammar Patrol team to clean it up before I upload it again.

    RBY UU, LC, etc. analyses can also be reserved if anyone is actually interested in those.

    Reserved Analyses:
     
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2015
  2. Ortheore

    Ortheore One beautiful monster

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    oo I'll reserve Tauros and Egg for now (though if someone else wants to do these, I'm fine doing the other ones, just let me know)
     
  3. sulcata

    sulcata stéphane curry best waifu Forum Moderator Server Administrator Forum Moderator Server Administrator

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    I think @Piexplode wanted to do a few of the ones we didn't have analyses for when he gets unbanned in 2 days or so. For now I think it'd be best to focus on one at a time to produce more complete analyses and to divide the work load.
     
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  4. Feena

    Feena New Member

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    I can help with Lapras, Jynx and Victreebel. If you need to update, just tell me and I gonna do my best.
    Anyway, what about translate it to spanish?
     
  5. sulcata

    sulcata stéphane curry best waifu Forum Moderator Server Administrator Forum Moderator Server Administrator

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    Again, I'm limiting the number of reserved analyses to one per person for now since there seem to be so few left with a couple people wishing to contribute. This will allow for the analyses to be more focused imo. New Pokemon will be able to be reserved once the current analysis is fully written and prepared for the Grammar Check stage.

    In terms of updating I'm not particularly sure, because I'm not exactly that knowledgeable of RBY. There were some things like Psychic being recommended on Gengar's main set when it would most likely fit in "Other Options" (that's fixed). I'm guessing there's more dated information.

    So @Ortheore and @Feena, which one are each of you reserving?
     
  6. Ortheore

    Ortheore One beautiful monster

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    I'll stick to Egg, since Piexplode has already written a decent Tauros analysis on pokemon perfect so I'll let him handle that

    Edit: Cloyster, Victreebel and Dragonite are all listed in both BL and OU on the tier list you linked, when they're banned in BL

    Edit2: I went through the analyses and wrote stuff on what I thought
    • The Zam analysis describes it as a special sponge. While it can function like that, it can also function as a lead and sweeper which are obviously pretty different.
    • Dnite's analysis should place more emphasis on paralysis in C&C, especially since Dnite lives non-STAB Ice attacks.
    • Gengar should have NS slashed before MD, as NS is FAR superior.
    • Golem's analysis lists Gyara as a check but not Bro/Lap/Cloy.
    • Far out so many Gyara mentions when it's straight up unviable.
    • Withdraw>Reflect on Bro, thanks to Crystal's mechanic discoveries, I'd slash it with Twave tbh.
    • Surf is garbage on Starmie imo, it offers practically nothing compared to Psychic's wallbreaking ability. Blizzard and recover are staples, Twave is practically a staple, 4th slot should be Tbolt/Psychic and everything else in OO (HBeam is alright too)
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2015
  7. sulcata

    sulcata stéphane curry best waifu Forum Moderator Server Administrator Forum Moderator Server Administrator

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    yeah I'm in the middle of updating and fixing the tier lists.
    My list of wiki things to do kind of goes like:
    Get and add content -> Manage tier listings -> Create links and formatting for convenience -> Other things

    edit: Oh also, I'll try to write up some additions to reflect those improvements and post threads if I get the time. Anyone else is welcome to it though.
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2015
  8. Feena

    Feena New Member

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    I will reserve Lapras, it´s one of my favorites pokemons and I play it a lot.

    Another thing you should fix is special stat, they have GSC special attack and defense
     
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2015
  9. sulcata

    sulcata stéphane curry best waifu Forum Moderator Server Administrator Forum Moderator Server Administrator

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    I know they use the same stat, but the importable thing hasn't been coded for importables for gens 1 & 2 (missing items, abilities, etc. throw it off sometimes too).
     
  10. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Badged Deucer

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    I can make a version of my Tauros analysis for Pokemon Perfect for PO. Where do I post? I'll try and adapt it to PO format, unless it's fine as I first post it.
     
  11. sulcata

    sulcata stéphane curry best waifu Forum Moderator Server Administrator Forum Moderator Server Administrator

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    Just make a post in the First Generation analyses subforum. Call it like, "Tauros" or "Tauros Analysis" or something. That way people can discuss whether or not certain details and matchups need to be mentioned.
     
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  12. Feena

    Feena New Member

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    I finished my lapras analysis and put them in the old gen forum. Hope you like it =)

    EDIT:

    I tried to delete the post in old gen discussion in order to move it here but I could not.
    Sorry about that
     
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2015
  13. sulcata

    sulcata stéphane curry best waifu Forum Moderator Server Administrator Forum Moderator Server Administrator

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    It doesn't seem to be there (that I can see), just repost it in this subforum I guess.

    edit: oh I see where it is, I'll get someone to move it.
     
  14. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom Active Member

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    I've got enough on my plate and haven't been actually playing for a while, but I'll try to supply some thoughts.
     
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  15. Ortheore

    Ortheore One beautiful monster

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    Since my Egg analysis is just waiting on grammar, I might go ahead and reserve Jynx. I won't get anything up in the next couple days because of uni work, but after that I'll be able to smash it out
     
  16. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Badged Deucer

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    wait wait wait wait JYNX IS FREE :O

    I might well take it we'll see

    either way I'm gonna write one on pokemon perfect.. and an advanced vs beginner's guide's probably not gonna be too different, although since I'm a major jynx player I'll sneak in a lot of extras in the advanced one.

    if u wanna take it feel free :] I've gotta work on a 3rd smog article before I work on my next RBY analysis anyway so I wouldn't be starting it for a few days at least.
     
  17. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom Active Member

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    Can grammar checks be done by anyone, or does it have to be someone in particular?
     
  18. Ortheore

    Ortheore One beautiful monster

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    @Piexplode if you want the Jynx analysis, feel free, I can do Bel I guess (although I'm nowhere near as familiar with it as I am with Jynx). I don't really mind either way

    Also m9m there's an actual grammar patrol that is supposed to do grammar checks, but a quick look at the rest of the analyses indicates that they've been suffering from a slight case of being completely dead. So I'd say anyone can do grammar checks, it's better than nothing
     
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  19. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom Active Member

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    Starmie needs a new analysis, methinks. Surf isn't very popular anymore (largely because people did the maths and worked out how crippling its lack of secondary actually is, but also due to the fall of Rocks), and there's the lead set which always runs Psychic. I think Piexplode or someone else said recently that Mie's "standard" set these days is Blizzard + Recover + two of [Psychic, Thunderbolt, Thunder Wave], which sounds about right to me; Surf should be in Other Options (which should also mention Hyper Beam).

    Also, can we fix the wiki so it lists RBY Pokemon as having RBY stats? Please? Not just the incorrectly-split Special; even the numbers are wrong (Starmie has 328 Spd and 298 Spc, for instance, not 266 and 236/206).
     
  20. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Badged Deucer

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    right now I consider standatward twave/tbolt/recover+psychic or blizzard
    it's kinda up to dispute, but I mean it could even seriously run Hyper Beam (marco has a good team with it)
    it could do with an update tho sure but there will be a lot of arguing over what should be the replacement :P
     
  21. Isa

    Isa Well-Known Tauros

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    the standard is not tbolt+psychic stop saying its the standard just because you and your circle of friends like it

    what m9m posted is the ACTUAL standard set, where psychic is standard on lead sets and tbolt is more common on nonlead sets
     
  22. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom Active Member

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    Well, I mean, the merits of each move basically are:

    Blizzard and Psychic: Spammable due to decent power/typing and deadly secondaries. Blizz is particularly useful vs. Egg/Zapdos/Dragonite, Psychic vs. Gengar.
    Thunderbolt: Slowbro and other Starmie.
    Thunder Wave: Paralyse shit.
    Surf: Rocks, Jynx.
    Hydro Pump: Rocks, Jynx, also the extra power can be useful (best chance of 2HKO on Tauros, for instance, and it poses a credible threat to Zam with a 3HKO).
    Hyper Beam: Jynx, Zam, Chansey.
     
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2015
  23. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Badged Deucer

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    Psychic is also your best move versus lax/tauros (after maybe h pump), and chansey (pressures it most easily, making it harder for it to come in, especially if combined with give-no-fucks-hyper beam) tbolt should have a mention as neutral to jynx
     
  24. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom Active Member

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    Blizzard 2HKO-or-better vs. Tauros - 28.44% (9.09% OHKO)
    Surf 2HKO vs. Tauros - 39.27%
    Psychic 2HKO vs. Tauros - 40.22%
    Hydro Pump 2HKO-or-better vs. Tauros - 49.06% (6.37% OHKO)

    Blizzard: 229/256 * 26/256 (first one hits and freezes) + 229/256 * 230/256 * 57/256 * 229/256 * 57/256 (both hit, first one crits and doesn't freeze, second one crits) + 229/256 * 230/256 * 57/256 * 229/256 * 199/256 * 537/1521 (both hit, first one crits and doesn't freeze, second one doesn't crit, and they 2HKO) + 229/256 * 230/256 * 57/256 * 229/256 * 199/256 * 984/1521 * 26/256 (both hit, first one crits and doesn't freeze, second one doesn't crit, doesn't 2HKO and freezes) + 229/256 * 230/256 * 199/256 * 229/256 * 57/256 * 537/1521 (both hit, first one doesn't crit or freeze, second one crits, and they 2HKO) + 229/256 * 230/256 * 199/256 * 229/256 * 57/256 * 984/1521 * 26/256 (both hit, first one doesn't crit or freeze, second one crits, doesn't 2HKO and freezes) + 229/256 * 230/256 * 199/256 * 229/256 * 199/256 * 26/256 (both hit, neither crits, first one doesn't freeze but second one does) + 27/256 * 229/256 * 26/256 (first one misses, second one hits and freezes)

    Surf: 255/256 * 57/256 * 255/256 (both hit, first one crits) + 255/256 * 199/256 * 255/256 * 57/256 (both hit, first one doesn't crit but second one does)

    Psychic: 255/256 * 57/256 * 255/256 (both hit, first one crits) + 255/256 * 199/256 * 255/256 * 57/256 (both hit, first one doesn't crit but second one does) + 255/256 * 199/256 * 85/256 * 255/256 * 199/256 * 73/1521 (both hit, neither crit, first one is a special fall and they 2HKO)

    Hydro Pump: 204/256 * 57/256 * 14/39 (first one hits, crits, and OHKOs) + 204/256 * 57/256 * 25/39 * 204/256 (first one hits, crits and doesn't OHKO, second one hits) + 204/256 * 199/256 * 204/256 * 57/256 (first one hits and doesn't crit, second one hits and crits) + 204/256 * 199/256 * 204/256 * 199/256 * 846/1521 (both hit, neither crits, and they 2HKO) + 52/256 * 204/256 * 57/256 * 14/39 (first one misses, second one hits, crits, and OHKOs)
     
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2015
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  25. Spoovo The Pirate

    Spoovo The Pirate Meep! Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    Fuzzy said he might look into this at some point, because it panders to later generations rather than earlier. I too would like to see the wiki all prettiful.
     
  26. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom Active Member

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    It's a 5HKO (0.013% chance of 4HKO is negligible) compared to Psychic's 7HKO (with 11% cold 6HKO + specfalls) and Surf's 95% 3HKO.

    Tbolt's barely better than STAB Psychic when there's only a 2x type differential (ie, Psychics that are not Water, Waters that are not Psychic, and Flyings). Psychic after 1 Special fall does more than Tbolt against those targets, and most of them rely on special moves to hit back. Tbolt's real targets are those with a 4x type differential, i.e. Slowbro and other Starmie (and theoretically Gyarados).
     
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2015
  27. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Badged Deucer

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    True, I was meaning to ask you to do similar calcs with Jynx like u did with Tauros
     
  28. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom Active Member

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    Show me a utility that can do mixed-attack 5HKO calcs (preferably exact, but I can live with percentages) and we'll talk. I'd need the numbers for the chance to 5HKO with Psychic after a second-turn or third-turn Special fall, and there's no way I'm doing those by hand the way I can do 2HKOs. The Tbolt 4HKO was a particularly easy case (very limited space due to how unlikely it was, and symmetric), and I was quoting the Psychic cold 6HKO from a utility.
     
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  29. sulcata

    sulcata stéphane curry best waifu Forum Moderator Server Administrator Forum Moderator Server Administrator

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    mine can, sorta. Just look for the "set hp" link next to the damage roll when you do a calculation.

    It lets you set the damage to a range based on the damage roll of the previous calculation. It accounts for repeated damage values, damage values with a difference between them >1, etc. It doesn't however account for critical hits, specs falls, or accuracy, although I could probably make it do that relatively easily with the set up I have going currently.

    If the chance to KO is less than 0.1% it'll just say that it's a "possible" KO. I could get it to return the chance as an exact fraction as part of "more options" if you'd like, since I have the function returning it anyway.

    There's a lot of other cool probability stuff like exact chances with multi-hit moves, berry considerations, changing BP moves, etc. that I should probably document clearly somewhere.

    edit: forgot to link but it's in my sig
     
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2015
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  30. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom Active Member

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    I've been using yours for quite a while. I didn't realise that's what "set HP" did; it works perfectly for specfall calcs AFAICS from testing it just now (though the auto-reset to max HP when changing stat stages is moderately annoying). Exact fraction would be nice, though.

    Full simulation of N-hit KO chances (multiplying out all the probabilities for the various ways a Pokemon can get KOed in N hits accounting for crits/accuracy/secondaries/damage rolls) is something I can do myself given the damage rolls, and I wouldn't trust a calculator with it unless it was fully transparent (it's enough of a humiliation to have to use them, but trusting them makes me feel like I can't even claim credit for the result). So don't feel obliged on my account.
     
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