February + March ORAS NU Potential Suspects Discussion

Discussion in 'Gen 6 NU' started by Weavile, Feb 1, 2015.

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  1. Weavile

    Weavile Phoenix

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    ORAS NU -> ORAS OU
    Lopunny

    ORAS NU -> ORAS UU
    Gallade
    Pidgeot
    Serperior
    Vaporeon

    ORAS NU -> ORAS LU
    Amoonguss
    Dragalge
    Glalie
    Golbat
    Hippowdon
    Klefki
    Magneton
    Sceptile
    Tangrowth
    Wobuffett
    Xatu

    ORAS LU -> ORAS NU
    Abomasnow
    Banette
    Durant
    Kabutops
    Kingdra
    Mawile
    Politoed
    Shaymin
    Shuckle
    Smeargle
    Starmie
    Yanmega

    Some extremely interesting and extremely scary drops here. Possibly most notably Shaymin, which I never expected to actually drop.

    We've lost Amoonguss and Vaporeon to LU and UU respectively which is likely to shake up the meta a lot in itself. But Klefki, Magneton, Dragalge and Hippowdon are also leaving us, which gives us an interesting meta that's nothing like what we had before.
     
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2015
  2. Suigetsu

    Suigetsu Active Member

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    Can't wait to get testing, those drops/rises smell like a very fresh meta.
     
  3. ShowMeTheMankey

    ShowMeTheMankey savage

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    this is disgusting
     
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  4. Dr. Doom

    Dr. Doom Long time hater of stall

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    Yanmega is incredibly threatening. Its Speed Boost set is lethal late game, while the Tinted Lens set can 2HKO just about anything bar Regice. Durant's incredibly powerful too, but it is held back by its frailty. I was going to suggest a Braviary retest, but I think that'll have to wait. This is the biggest tier shift I've ever seen. We might have to rethink the 4% cutoff point.
     
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  5. DSM01

    DSM01 Jammin' out

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    So we lost many defensive and offensive staples and gained a ton of offensive powerhouses. Starmie could be a good spinner for defensive/balanced teams but ultimately I think we're going to see a lot of Smeargle spike stack offense.
     
  6. East's Mascot

    East's Mascot The Tyrant

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    So, a lot of stuff dropped/rose...

    Yanmega:
    I think this is the most threatening out of the bunch. Nothing really wants to switch in bar spdef Milo. Specs Tinted lens and protect 3 attack w/ LO and Speed boost are both incredibly viable sets. Very few things can switch into the LO set, let alone the specs tinted lens set which allows it to push through things that would normally resist it's stabs. There's not really much to say beyond damage calcs, I think this is worthy of a suspect.
    252+ SpA Choice Specs Tinted Lens Yanmega Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Camerupt: 214-252 (62.2 - 73.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (This is with mega stats)
    252+ SpA Choice Specs Yanmega Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Regirock: 160-190 (43.9 - 52.1%) -- 77% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
    252+ SpA Choice Specs Tinted Lens Yanmega Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Steelix: 168-198 (47.4 - 55.9%) -- 93.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock (Again, with mega stats)


    Kingdra:
    Kingdra can run multiple sets which include: Choice specs, Rain Dance LO (Swift Swim), Focus Energy (Sniper), and DD variants (RestoChesto/SubDD). Kindra's specs set is honestly probably the least threatening since we have experience with specs dragons with roughly 95-100 SpA (Cough Noivern Cough) and Kindra's coverage is even worse (Limited to Dragon/Water/Ice) which means it gets walled by generally the same things as Noivern. The Focus Energy set has more raw power, but struggles to sweep due to it relying on forcing switches to setup and killing slower walls (base 85 speed and lower). Since a lot of NU mons are really fast right now, it struggles to sweep; however, it's wallbreaking power is stronger than the specs set since it can go for repeated Draco's on spdef walls such as Milotic/Jellicent. The Rain Dance set overcomes the speed flaw, but lacks the power to bully its way past NU's premier special walls, it is however incredibly threatening to offensive teams who lacks the sturdy walls the balance/stall can run. The DD sets are also threatening in their own nature, if you switch to Jellicent as Kingdra sets up a DD and then a sub in your face, you're pretty much screwed. As much as I love this mon, I feel that it's just too good for nu currently. Maybe next gen Kingdra, maybe next gen.

    252+ SpA Choice Specs Kingdra Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Milotic: 174-205 (44.1 - 52%) -- 75.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
    252+ SpA Sniper Kingdra Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Milotic on a critical hit: 262-310 (66.4 - 78.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
    252+ Atk Kingdra Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Granbull: 102-121 (26.5 - 31.5%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery (After a DD and intimidate)
    +1 252+ Atk Kingdra Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Milotic: 217-256 (55 - 64.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery


    Shaymin:
    Shaymin in NU really surprised me, but I'm having difficulty saying it's broken/not broken. I feel that it's teetering on the edge due to a bunch of factors. It arrived alongside M-Abomasnow and Yanmega, both of which can check/revenge kill it and it really depends on its coverage move to push through certain mons. If it lacks HP Ice, it can't really touch Noivern. It is also checked by Sap Sipper mons (Bouffalant/Miltank), Trevenant, Togetic, and other non water SpDef walls. I'll have to reserve my judgement on Shaymin for the time being.

    M-Abomasnow:
    A mon similar to M-Camel, but instead of rocks for utility it can go as a Mixed attacker or go straight for an SD set. It also has priority in the form of Ice Shard which allows to to revenge kill certain mons (Weakened Shaymins, Noiverns, etc). At the moment, I think it's actually healthy for the tier as it keeps other threats in check. Not too much can safely switch in, but switch ins that come to mind are the sap sipper bros (AV Bouff/spdef Miltank), SpDef M-Lix, Emboar, Durant, Skuntank, Klingklang and Bronzong. It is also revenge killed by various pokemon (Sawk, Fletchinder, etc)


    Starmie:
    Starmie is also surprisingly healthy for the tier imo. It lacks the power to kill NU's SpDef walls (Milotic, Jellicent, Gastro, LickiLicky, Musharna etc) and can be trapped by pokemon like Skuntank and Spiritomb. Starmie adds another Rapid Spinner to the tier, but also brings back the possibility of spinblocking which was always interesting in NU (Misdrevius in bw2). At the current moment, I don't think Starmie is broken.


    Durant:
    Durant is a massive powerhouse. I have had bad experiences with missing crucial moves due to hustle, but its power is undeniable. It's capable of running a 3 good sets, Hone claws to remedy it's poor accuracy (lol stone edge for every move), CB for raw power, and Scarf for revenge killing. Durant is fairly fast at base 109 speed and is very powerful due to hustle. Whilst it relies on it's coverage move to kill certain things (Superpower for M-lix, Thunder Fang (yes you heard me right, err read) for Qwilfish, Poliwrath, and Jellicent, Rock Slide for fire types, etc.), it forces you to guess what coverage move it's running and that scouting can cost you a pokemon. At the moment, I wouldn't be against a suspect for this thing.


    I'll add more calcs in later (probably)
     
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  7. OUAzumarill

    OUAzumarill Active Member

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    I just wanna say that it's both hilarious and sad that Altaria didn't rise. It's not like it's going to see any use from here to UU anyway. ;(

    Durant and Yanmega would be both of my first choices for suspecting. Both can easily rip through even moderately prepared teams. Yanmega in particular is scarier to me as its abilities make it far less predictable and harder to work around.
     
  8. Beyoncé

    Beyoncé (ू•ᴗ•) u r silly

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    Really excited for Mawile dropping to NU. I've been waiting to test that sheer force set for a long time.

    Alsp with M-Abombasnow Hail teams are definitely going to be pushing through NU. Alot of obscure pokemon come back into light(Frosslass) and with all the ice pokemon in NU with benificial hail abilities ( Snow Cloak, Ice Body) it's gonna be nice to see ice types getting a rise in usage.
     
  9. Weavile

    Weavile Phoenix

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    So the suspects I am thinking are most urgent in no particular order because they're all kind of crazy.
    Yanmega, Durant, Shaymin, Kingdra

    Of these I think Kingdra may actually be the most threatening. It's insanely powerful with its Critdra set and proficient with a DD Chestorest set. It's honestly a huge huge threat and you'd do well to never underestimate it.

    Then would come Yanmega, since it simply gains momentum as it goes and is extremely powerful with solid coverage. However its rocks weakness leaves it a little more limited than Kingdra in my opinion.

    Shaymin's main threat is the SDef drop from Seed Flare, it leaves its list of reliable counters stopping dead at Regice. It's also a good Subseeder and all round amazing Pokémon.

    Durant is just a monster. Toby will tell you how much of a threat Durant really is. Its hone claws sets can sweep but its frailty is really something. Dying to Haunter's itemless Shadow Ball for example. But its high speed and impressive raw power without setup make it a real threat. Especially in a meta like we have now where Regice counters like 3-4 major new threats and is setup fodder for Durant.
     
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  10. East's Mascot

    East's Mascot The Tyrant

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    Something that should be noted I think is that right now, everyone is spamming the new drops that they think are broken without really thinking. Because of this, I don't think the current metagame is a good representation of what it could be. I still stand by what I said that Yanmega/Kingdra (Durant and Shaymin to an extent) will need to be suspected and most likely banned (at least in the case of Yanmega/Kingdra). Sadly, some things that would have been very helpful vs some of the drops (Golbat/Amoongus/Vaporeon/Magneton) left at the same time which left the meta unstable. I think Yanmega and Kindra should be suspected asap, but I think the other two should wait about a week after the first round of suspecting to allow the metagame to stabilize a bit and see what happens.

    Something else I want to mention that has somewhat been swept under the rug due to the drops is Emboar. Reckless Emboar has pretty much 0 switch ins. Banded Flare Blitz is capable of 2hkoing hippowdon (I'm aware it left the tier, but it's just a demonstration of its power) and has access to Reckless Wild Charge to break through bulky waters. It has the capability of going mixed with a pretty good movepool. Not even pokemon that resist the hit are safe:
    252+ Atk Choice Band Reckless Emboar Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Camerupt: 186-219 (54 - 63.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (This is with mega stats)
    I think this is a really threatening mon that is hard to deal with for most play styles, bar hyper offense which still usually loses a mon to Emboar. Emboar is capable of running scarf pretty well since it has a very diverse movepool, it''s hard to counter and you can lose a mon scouting out it's movepool. After the more blatently broken things get banned (Kingdra/Yanmega as well as potentially Durant/Shaymin), I believe this should get suspected as well.
     
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  11. Beyoncé

    Beyoncé (ू•ᴗ•) u r silly

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    After playing this new meta I've come to conclude my opinions on some things.

    Kingdra
    Critdra is ridiculous imo. Only the most dedicated of special walls can switch in on a sniper crit draco meteor. Also with the lack of strong fairy representation in nu(Mawile has the life orb glitch on android and dies from hydro pump. Granbull is a hindrance outside of trickroom. Togetic is a good counter but doesn't like sniper ice beams.)

    Shaymin
    How did this adorable hedgehog drop from LU? :c It's really too strong for NU. It's Serene Grace moveset is too powerful because anything that comes in to tank a seed flare(like a fellow grass type) either takes a sp.def drop or a flinching Air Slash. Neither of which is something many teams can handle. Not to mention it still has amazing damage output outside of hax.

    Durant
    This thing is an absolute beast. Sure hustle gives all its attacks 80% accuracy but holy crap it's worthy trade off. Again like critdra only dedicated physical tanks/walls can switch in on this thing. Everything else is 2hKO'd or just flat out dropped. It also has very good typing for NU being the only bug/steel in the tier other than Wormadam-Trash. It gives him a host of resistances and immunities with that single weakness to fire. Which isn't even a problem with rocks and a bulky water.

    Yanmega
    Honestly in my opinion this is the least threatening of the LU drops. It can run hard hitting sets like tintspecs and speed boost life orb. But it's dual stabs plus rock weakness really hold it back. It's lack of boosting moves give it trouble breaking past pokemon that resist it dual stabs. Also in a tier full of rock & ice tpes Yanmega's terrible bulk hinders it again.

    Good drops for NU! Yay~ :D

    Mawile

    I was excited to see her finally drop into NU and I wasn't let down. A seriously strong fairy type with good typing. Great coverage and power. Despite sheer force being a little glitchy Mawile is very healthy for NU and a fresh new fairy type for the tier.

    Starmie
    I was surprised to see Starmie drop to NU. I was a little upset honestly, not gonna lie. But it's nice to see a new spinner gracing NU. Respectable power and blazing speed allow it to effectively blow away rocks. Meaning teams don't have to rely of defoggers like Togetic and Skuntank. (I'm still partial to Armaldo though. :3)

    Mega Abombasnow
    While at first I thought he'd be too much for NU but with the admission of hail. Mega Abombasnow is really fun. Ice types are rising up from the bottom of NU thanks to Abombasnow and honestly hail is really fun to play against. Alot of critical plays, makes me feel like I'm playing chess.
     
  12. East's Mascot

    East's Mascot The Tyrant

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    Quick note: Only Shaymin's normal form is NU which can't use Serene Grace. It instead has the ability Natural Cure, don't confuse Shaymin Normal with the monstrosity that is Shaymin-Sky *Hax
     
  13. Beyoncé

    Beyoncé (ू•ᴗ•) u r silly

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    Omg you're right, I got it mixed up because I was in class and just got double haxed by a Shaymin. Sorry ;-;
     
  14. Weavile

    Weavile Phoenix

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    Draciel new NUTL. On the lookout for a third musketeer still. I am impressed with a couple people. Is a hard choice.
    Durant and Yanmega are probably still the next suspects. Id like opinions in Mega Aboma tbh. Dont hear a lot of it.
     
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  15. East's Mascot

    East's Mascot The Tyrant

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    Mega Abom is a really interesting drop, it's super bulky, real strong, and has decent coverage in Grass/Ice/Ground. Ice Shard allows it to revenge certain mons w/ the coveted Ice priority and still dents most mons since it's backed up by an impressive base 132 Attack. It's pretty hard to switch in safely due to it's powerful mixed attacking prowess, but checks/counters that come to mind are...
    Counters: Bronzong (Needs Iron Head instead of Gyro Ball)
    Checks: AV Bouffalant (really good atm!!), PhysDef Sap Thick Fat Miltank (this will lose to the SD set, Sap Sipper will beat SD sets however), fire types (resist Ice Shard, hit for 4x damage), Fletchinder (Listing this separately since it relies on Acro instead of Fire stabs), Mantine, M-Steelix, M-Camerupt, Gurdurr, Sawk, Hariyama, Lord Mawile, Avalugg, Qwilfish, Muk (a few more mons, but I don't think I can list mons worse than Muk as viable at the moment as Muk is already pushing it).

    As you can see, there aren't many (only 1) counters to M-Abom, but there are quite a lot of checks that can fit onto most playstyles. M-Abom is also weak to Rocks, so it needs defog/spin support or it loses 25% of it's HP upon every switch in. At the current moment, I don't feel like M-Aboma is broken; however, this could be biased because I really like most of the mons that check/counter it so they're usually on my teams. I really do think that it's manageable, but this is coming from an offense/balanced playstyle user so I'm not sure what Stall/HO users feel about it.
     
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  16. Dr. Doom

    Dr. Doom Long time hater of stall

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    I'd like to talk about Tyrantrum. For those of you who don't know, its hidden ability Rock Head has recently been released world wide. This means it can use STAB Head Smash with no recoil. That, and the additions to its movepool from the ORAS tutors has made it so much more threatening than it was before. And it's quite bulky and has acceptable Speed which can be boosted (more on that later).

    Sets:
    Choice Band
    Tyrantrum @ Choice Band
    Trait: Rock Head
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spd
    Adamant Nature (+Atk -SAtk)
    Head Smash
    Outrage
    Superpower
    Dragon Claw / Earthquake

    Meet one of the best wallbreakers you'll see in this tier. This set is pretty self explanatory - fire off Head Smashes and watch shit die. With a Choice Band equipped, Tyrantrum's Attack sits at a whopping 562, and when you're firing off a move with 225 power (factoring in STAB) off an Attack stat like that...there's almost nothing you can't 2HKO. Rock Head makes Head Smash very spammable, as nothing's immune to it. Outrage is the alternate STAB if you don't feel like risking Head Smash's accuracy - the only relevant fairy is Granbull, who's still 2HKOed by Head Smash, so it's fairy safe. Steel types resist Tyrantrum's STABs, so the next move is designed to hurt them. Superpower does 50% (ish) to Steelix, while 2HKOing Ferroseed. Dragon Claw is the safe STAB move, although it's mostly filler. Earthquake hits Klefki harder. EVs maximise Speed and power.

    Boosting Sweeper
    Tyrantrum @ Life Orb / Lum Berry
    Trait: Rock Head
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spd
    Adamant Nature (+Atk -SAtk) / Jolly Nature (+Spd -SAtk)
    Dragon Dance / Rock Polish
    Head Smash
    Dragon Claw / Outrage
    Earthquake

    Tyrantrum too slow for you? That's easily fixed. Dragon Dance enables Tyrantrum to tie with Ambipom and Cinccino at +1 with an Adamant nature, or outrun max Speed Jolteon with a Jolly one. Rock Polish grants a bigger boost, enabling Tyrantrum to outrun Scarf Primeape and Sawk with an Adamant nature. Head Smash is again the main STAB, and 2HKOes everything that doesn't resist it. Dragon Claw is the safe STAB for when you don't want to risk a miss, but it is quite weak. Outrage is stronger, but does lock you in. Earthquake gets brilliant coverage with the STABs, hitting all of NU for neutral damage. Again, EVs maximise Speed and power.

    Bulky Rock resists can check it well, but pretty much nothing can safely switch into it. In fact the only Pokémon that can is Steelix. I'm not saying it's broken, I haven't done enough testing for that, but it's certainly worth a look. If it doesn't rise on its own.
     
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  17. Spoovo The Pirate

    Spoovo The Pirate Meep! Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    It's worth noting that Tyrantrum also gets Hone Claws, which can patch up the accuracy of Head Smash and any other inaccurate moves it may spam. This'll help it power through slower teams with ease. Sticky Web support, and it can be deadly.

    Actually, I may be tempted to give this a try:

    Tyrantrum @ Leftovers
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spd
    Jolly / Adamant
    Rock Head

    -Substitute
    -Hone Claws
    -Dragon Tail
    -Head Smash

    Essentially a poor man's Kyurem, but hey. :D
     
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2015
  18. Dr. Doom

    Dr. Doom Long time hater of stall

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    I'm not sold on Hone Claws: Tyrantrum's too slow to use it effectively. However, a Sub + 3 Attacks set could be interesting as it can force out quite a few Pokémon. I'm thinking...

    Tyrantrum @ Leftovers
    Trait: Rock Head
    EVs: 168 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def / 84 Spd
    Adamant Nature
    Substitute
    Head Smash
    Dragon Claw
    Earthquake

    EVs outrun 0 Spd Milotic, max Attack with the rest in bulk.
     
  19. Weavile

    Weavile Phoenix

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    Hone Claws and sub 3 attacks are sub standard sets for Tyrant imo. DD gives it everything it needs. The 3 attacks sub set doesnt need Dclaw at all so might as well mame it SubDD with some slight EV changes.

    Hone claws especially is looking like a bad durant atm. But DD would appear to be real.
     
  20. Draciel

    Draciel ALLEZ! ALLEZ! ALLEZ!

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    The set I'm actually scared about is the Banded set; it's like clicking on Head Smash and watch everyone die, and has pretty much zero switch-ins other than Steelix ( which dies to a well-predicted EQ/Superpower). Even standard Bronzong has a high chance of getting 2hkoed by banded Head Smash, and a few offensive fighting-types are even ohkoed lol. A few calcs :

    252+ Atk Choice Band Tyrantrum Head Smash vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Primeape: 288-339 (106.2 - 125%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    252+ Atk Choice Band Tyrantrum Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Bronzong: 168-198 (49.7 - 58.5%) -- 69.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
    252+ Atk Choice Band Tyrantrum Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Golurk: 231-272 (60.4 - 71.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

    EDIT: Quagsire, Poliwrath and Gurdurr are decent switch-ins as well. But still it's very scary n_n
     
  21. Dr. Doom

    Dr. Doom Long time hater of stall

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    Don't forget, it also has that STAB Outrage. Quagisre, Poliwrath and Gurdurr are all 2HKOed by a Banded Outrage, and all the 3 Fairies in NU (Mega Audino, Whimsicott and Granbull) take massive damage from Head Smash so they're not going to switch in:

    252+ Atk Choice Band Rock Head Tyrantrum Outrage vs. 252 HP/4 Def Eviolite Gurdurr: 234 - 276 (62.6 - 73.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252+ Atk Choice Band Rock Head Tyrantrum Outrage vs. 252 HP/252+ Def Leftovers Poliwrath: 229 - 270 (59.6 - 70.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252+ Atk Choice Band Rock Head Tyrantrum Outrage vs. 252 HP/252+ Def Leftovers Unaware Quagsire: 246 - 291 (62.4 - 73.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252+ Atk Choice Band Rock Head Tyrantrum Head Smash vs. 252 HP/252+ Def Leftovers Whimsicott: 307 - 363 (94.8 - 112%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
    -1 252+ Atk Choice Band Rock Head Tyrantrum Head Smash vs. 252 HP/252+ Def Leftovers Intimidate Granbull: 222 - 262 (57.8 - 68.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252+ Atk Choice Band Rock Head Tyrantrum Head Smash vs. 252 HP/252+ Def Mega Audino: 235 - 277 (57.3 - 67.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
     
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2015
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  22. topah

    topah Active Member

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    what happened to my tier
     
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  23. ZoroDark

    ZoroDark i know everything

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    honestly can't we just quickban yanmega. there's nothing in the whole tier that can stand up to specs bug buzz whereas the speed boost set needs a little more support but it's just as dangerous. the only thing that's holding yanmega back is its sr weakness but starmie is as consistent as spinners get. it also has ridiculous synergy with yanmega so ya the sooner this thing gets banned the better.
     
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  24. Weavile

    Weavile Phoenix

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    So I'd like to hear more thoughts on Noivern and Tyrantrum as potential suspects. The former has been around a while but people seem to think it's an issue now. Personally I don't see it but hey.
    Tyrantrum has a new tool in recoil-less Head Smash which lets it tear through many of the things that it once feared. After using it a fair amount I'm doubting if it's healthy for the meta or not. Specifically I refer to DD sets (well I use DD Hone Claws but that's just me)
     
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  25. Spoovo The Pirate

    Spoovo The Pirate Meep! Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    I personally see Noivern as a threat, but nothing metagame breaking. Common walls like (Mega) Audino can easily handle it, and while it hits hard, neither of its hard hitting moves can be relied on. Draco Meteor cripples it, and Hurricane is horribly inaccurate. While that doesn't an argument make, it does mean Noivern's constantly treading on eggshells unless it runs one of its weaker STABs, Air Slash or Dragon Pulse.

    Togetic is another fairly common counter, while Offensive Eviolite Piloswine can take one of anything and cut it down with an Ice Shard. (Mega) Abomasnow can tank either power STAB and do the same thanks to Soundproof...

    Noivern has a few viable answers in the tier, so I don't reckon it's too damaging for the tier just yet.

    Tyrantrum on the other hand... it tears through everything that isn't a Steel-type using just its STABs. Literally nothing else is bulky enough to eat two Head Smashes or Outrages. Even Fairies can't risk switching in, because:

    -1 252+ Atk Choice Band Tyrantrum Head Smash vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Granbull: 222-262 (57.9 - 68.4%)

    Ouch.

    For most Steels, it has Earthquake or Superpower to neuter them too, so I personally reckon Tyrantrum deserves a suspect before Noivern in any case.
     
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  26. East's Mascot

    East's Mascot The Tyrant

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    When using stall or bulky offense, Noivern isn't "broken" in that there are no answers (however you're forced to run one or multiple of them thanks to switcheroo and I believe some of them, answers used on stall/bulky offense, aren't healthy for the tier itself either, cough Milotic cough) ; however, offense has very limited answers to it and you're forced to run them if you don't want to get 6-0'd by Noivern. Noivern is very fast with a base 122 speed and has access to STAB Draco Meteor, STAB Hurricane (or Air Slash) and coverage or momentum options in Flamethrower, Focus Blast, and U-Turn which allows it to plow through offense. Bar scarf users and HP Ice Jolteon, their are very limited options to dealing with Noivern. Noivern also has access to Switcheroo which can really mess up it's switch ins (Milotic, Jellicent, Togetic) which should be noted. If there was a suspect test, I would vote ban and would support a suspect test for this mighty dragon.

    Tyrantrum needs to go, between Band, Scarf, and DD sets... It's just too powerful for the tier. Scarf sets mess up offense, Band destroys stall and balance, and DD sweeps if it can get 1 or 2 DD's under it's belt. I don't think I need to post calcs to show off the power of Base 150 moves coming off of Base 130(ish) attack. This needs to go.
     
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2015
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  27. E.T.

    E.T. Random Slowpoke Super Moderator Server Administrator Articles Leader Super Moderator Server Administrator Articles Leader

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    Noivern has been a strong force in NU since XY, and while maybe it's worth a suspect, I don't think it is broken. Most stall and balance teams shouldn't have a problem standing up to it. I can see where offense might have more trouble with it, but it is weak to SR and most sets don't have Roost. If it is worthy of a suspect, I think there are more pressing issues atm. (the following, Yanmega, or even sun/heat rock)

    I haven't had the misfortune of battling a Rock Head Tyrantrum yet, but just hearing about it is enough for me to agree that it needs a suspect sooner rather than later.

    Another monster that has arrived or will arrive very soon is Sheer Force Feraligatr. It shouldn't take too long for people to start calling for it to be suspected as well. As for Typhlosion and Meganium (lol), I don't think their abilities are good enough to make them worth discussing.
     
  28. Spoovo The Pirate

    Spoovo The Pirate Meep! Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    I can definitely see Typhlosion becoming a lot stronger in NU with Flash Fire though, with a Scarf Eruption 2HKOing bulky resists after a Flash Fire boost:

    +1 252 SpA Typhlosion Eruption (150 BP) vs. 200 HP / 56 SpD Seismitoad: 191-225 (47.6 - 56.1%) -- 82.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

    I mean, an 82% chance is pretty damn likely. I can't imagine its set will change any, aside from Specs maybe becoming more common, however it'll certainly pose much more of a threat, and other Fire-types will have to watch their step. If it carries an Air Balloon, it'll also pretty much function as a wall to Mega Camerupt (assuming no coverage moves). That's rather lucrative.

    Worthy of suspect though...? Nah, I doubt it.
     
  29. East's Mascot

    East's Mascot The Tyrant

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    Something I want to bring up is the possibility of Milotic being "broken" in the NU tier. It's kind of difficult to call a wall broken, but I believe Milotic is just too much for the NU tier. It's bulk is absolutely ridiculous (calcs below), access to STAB Scald with a pretty good SpA, and it has good speed for a wall (almost hitting 200 w/o any investment). It has decent utility moves in Haze and Dragon Tail to stop the opponent setting up, Recover which has much more PP than moves like Moonlight/Synthesis and it has good abilities in Competitive (fucks over Sticky Web teams) and Marvel Scale which means that if you T-Wave it, it becomes even harder to kill.


    252+ SpA Eelektross Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Milotic: 170-204 (43.2 - 51.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
    252+ SpA Exeggutor Giga Drain vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Milotic: 164-194 (41.7 - 49.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
    252 SpA Choice Specs Noivern Draco Meteor vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Milotic: 160-190 (40.7 - 48.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
    252+ SpA Choice Specs Yanmega Bug Buzz vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Milotic: 138-163 (35.1 - 41.4%) -- 76.7% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
    4 SpA Vileplume Giga Drain vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Milotic: 110-132 (27.9 - 33.5%) -- 89.4% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
    252 SpA Choice Specs Typhlosion Hidden Power Grass vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Milotic: 108-128 (27.4 - 32.5%) -- 65.3% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
    252 SpA Life Orb Heliolisk Grass Knot (100 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Milotic: 156-185 (39.6 - 47%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery (Generally not running Tbolt since Hyper Voice was released)
    252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Milotic: 133-159 (33.8 - 40.4%) -- 37.2% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

    Also, with POWC coming up really soon, would it be possible to have shorter suspect tests to get the really broken things out of the way/suspected before it starts (Yanmega, Tyrantrum, Noivern, Milotic, M-Abom )
     
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2015
  30. Dzi

    Dzi So Nyuh Shi Dae

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    Feraligatr pls. Surprised that its only mentioned once in this thread. It wasn't much of a trouble before but lately people have been starting to use it coz its DD set is really unstoppable. The only real counter to it is probably Poliwrath which takes Waterfall/Ice Fang/Crunch nicely but struggles to hit back.

    oh wait its up lol
     
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2015
  31. Weavile

    Weavile Phoenix

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    After these two suspects (Fera/Tyrant) we're probably gonna let it rest for a week or two.
    We've had requests for Noivern and one or two for Starmie (the latter of which I don't really favour much). Noivern especially is in consideration.

    Soon we might have that Braviary retest that's been on the cards for a while, so that's neat. That is if you guys want that retest. Lemme know.
     
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  32. Dr. Doom

    Dr. Doom Long time hater of stall

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    Yes please, Braviary was a great mon in the tier but it had enough flaws, checks and counters to not be considered broken IMO. Regirock, Eviolite Rhydon, defensive Carracosta, Klefki and (Mega) Steelix spring to mind. Everyone freaked out over the Band set's wallbreaking prowess, but really it wasn't much different to Band Sawk: few counters, but quite a lot of checks as it was easily outsped. The Defiant argument's not a great one either, as there are plenty of Spinners in the tier so getting rid of hazards usually isn't a problem.
     
  33. East's Mascot

    East's Mascot The Tyrant

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    I have to disagree, I don't think it should be retested. Klefki left the tier, bulky Carracosta just isn't good right now, and M-Lix outclasses Rhydon and Regirock as rockers right now. With Hippo and Magneton also gone, I really don't agree with allowing Braviary back into the tier at such a crucial time (middle of powc). Spinners are more prevalent right now since Starmie is around, but defiant should not be discounted. Defiant can get grabbed off of almost anything, an intimidate from Granbull, a SpDef drop from Energy Ball, etc. But my main qualm is that the only mons that can safely switch in from the top 100 used pokemon in NU are: M-Steelix, Bronzong, and Regirock. The problem is that allowing Braviary back into the tier will make M-Steelix even more centralizing and the latter 2 are setup fodder for the bulk up set (as is Steelix if it runs Toxic/Stone Edge/Dragon Tail over Roar). Another issue is that even CB Braviary won't have too much trouble w/ MLix, Regirock, and Rhydon if it just clicks Superpower and Bronzong won't exactly appreciate it either. Scarf Braviary also smashes offense since Magneton is gone and other electric types will just drop to a Return (Helioisk/Jolteon) or two (Lanturn/Eelektross/Rotom-C). If Braviary drops to NU, M-Lix's usage will rise to ridiculous levels (it's already at 38% in ranked stats which is incredibly centralizing, 9% higher than Starmie rofl) and the NU metagame will become even more unstable. We're almost at an ideal metagame if you ask me (just get rid of Noivern/Milotic/current suspects).

    Other interesting topics right now:
    M-Aboma= This is a "little" more threatening that I anticipated when played by anyone with a brain and it forces Bronzong to run Iron Head over Gyro Ball.
    Starmie=Also pretty threatening to offense, somewhat manageable but I could see a suspect since it provides incredible team support. It's going to rise on it's own next shift anyways though.
    Helioisk=Very threatening mon in it's own right, watch out for it since it has amazing coverage
    Milotic=You can't kill this e.e
    Mega Steelix= I kind of touched on this, but ranked stats shows that it has 38% usage right now which is pretty stupid. It outshines every other Stealth Rock user as well, super centralizing as is let alone if Braviary is let back into the tier. Also really hard to kill (lives cb sawk's CC wtf)
     
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2015
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  34. Spoovo The Pirate

    Spoovo The Pirate Meep! Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    Odds are Starmie'll be going LU by next month anyway, judging by usage stats (hell, it's above 4% on OU right now, lol), so I don't personally think Starmie's worth testing all too desperately.

    As for re-tests, would Tornadus-I be worth considering?

    With the banning of both Drizzle and the Damp Rock from the tier, Tornadus lost its primary weapon, i.e. perfect accuracy Hurricane, and it's below 3% usage in LU. I'd argue Toxicroak too, but he's sitting pretty at 6% usage in UU lol.
     
  35. Weavile

    Weavile Phoenix

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    Tornadus-I is still an extremely threatening and powerful user of Bulk-Up. ChestoAcro or just raw Acro is still a major threat. I would say it's probably not a great idea to retest it right now. I can't think of many good checks to it. You have Mega Steelix, but even that doesn't really like Superpower much due to no recovery. So you end up relying on things like Regirock (which still doesn't like Superpower but at least it has lefties to help a lot) and Archeops to really take it on. The latter of which isn't ideal at all what with its frailty and rocks weakness. I don't think it'd be an unstoppable force but I don't think it's what the meta needs right now.
     
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  36. Dr. Doom

    Dr. Doom Long time hater of stall

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    False. Rhydon and Regirock both bring different things to the table than Mega Steelix - Rhydon has better Attack, better offensive typing, similar bulk due to Eviolite and doesn't fill your mega slot. Regirock again is used for its Rock typing to check Fire, Flying and Normal types. There's no doubt Braviary would be a great Pokémon in NU, easily one of the tier's top mons, and maybe it would be broken but we won't know unless we test it. I think we were too hasty in banning it, and as is the worrying trend these days everyone was all "OMG one set has no 100% safe switch ins, ban it!" Apart from Spiritomb, Band Sawk has no absolutely safe switch ins and people are fine with that in the tier.
     
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2015
  37. Spoovo The Pirate

    Spoovo The Pirate Meep! Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    I think the Smogon effect also plays a large part in it. In spite of us not following them, the fact that they have a much larger playerbase - a lot of whom are also here - and the fact that they're a lot more banhappy than here, has a huge influence on how people think;

    'OMG Smogon banned it, so it must be broken here too!'

    for example.
     
  38. Dr. Doom

    Dr. Doom Long time hater of stall

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    So true. I remember Landorus-I in BW2 - Sheer Force had been released for nearly a year, and most people were fine with it. Then Smogon banned it and suddenly everyone thought it was totally and utterly broken.
     
  39. Weavile

    Weavile Phoenix

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    Well that's just completely not relevant. Also that would be a valid observation if the metagame was in a static vacuum for a year, but it wasn't. It was changing the whole time and people's perceptions were too.

    Anyway. This tier and Smogon's NU are just completely different. I don't believe it can be anything but the most ignorant and stupid person who can call for a ban of a Pokémon in this tier because Smogon's NU banned it, and I've not heard such a call in a long time.

    Please don't bring up that which isn't relevant.
     
  40. Draciel

    Draciel ALLEZ! ALLEZ! ALLEZ!

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    Getting this back on track;

    I don't think it's a good idea to retest Tornadus atm, it's just too fast and too strong. With high-powered STABs in Hurricane/Acrobatics coupled with Knock off/Superpower/U-turn and priority Bulk up; it's just too powerful for the tier. I guess M-Steelix does the job, but it has no recovery and still takes a decent amount from Superpower, and Tornadus can just U-turn on it to something appropriate. So yeah it'd be too centralizing for the meta.
     
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