We moved Pelipper from C to C+: Pelipper does have a good typing (even with the rocks weakness) as it resists Fire and Fighting, two very prominent typings in NU right now. The problem lies with it's SpDef mainly as it's just too low to effectively switch into the common Fire types (Magmortar and Pyroar can hit it with Thunder Bolt and Hyper Voice respectively) and Typhlosion can just blast through with Eruption. It is still a good fighting resist due to it's good Physical bulk and has access to nice moves like Defog, U-Turn, Scald, Roost, and Knock Off, but we feel that moving it up to B- is just too much right now. ( Sorry Cirno :[ )
Lord Pelipper approves of this. Also, I've been playing with Mawile, and I think it should move from B- to B or maybe B+, but that might be too much. Life Orb Sheer Force hits very hard, and with speed investment Mawile can be surprisingly efficient such as being able to outspeed and OHKO bulky Malamar. It also gets Sucker Punch to hit things that outspeed it. However, it can have problems with Fire types and Steel types if it doesn't run Fire Blast/Fire Punch. Swords Dance and Stealth Rock are a couple of moves it has access too as well.
a few noms: Dugtrio B+ --> A Dugtrio is really good because it just eliminates a lot of mons easily and pairs extremely well with a lot of threatening mons like klinklang, sneasel, cinccino, and typhlosion. it traps and weakens / kills a lot of bulky mons like registeel, lanturn, and garbodor making it very easy to sweep with the right teammate. in addition, it can also trap and kill offensive pokemon such as typhlosion and sawk, so it always pulls its weight in every battle. in addition, it doesn't really face a 4mss issue, and earthquake is really the only compulsory move on it. so, you can run aerial ace to trap and ensure that virizion dies, stone edge for coverage, memento to help a teammate set up (especially when you can choose the memento target), sucker punch to ensure that you beat glalie 1v1 with an intact sash, substitute to enable you to trap houndoom, and stealth rock for an almost guaranteed rocks because xatu can't switch in. it provides really good support and definitely deserves a place somewhere in A. Glalie A --> A+ glalie is incredible as a wallbreaker and pairs very well with a lot of threatening late-game sweepers. its double-edge + explosion actually does 85% minimum to spdef bronzong, so there goes your normal resist / klinklang check, etc. it can deal around 90-something% damage to registeel and poliwrath with an appropriate move + boom. teams that lack one of these mons that force it to boom just take loads of damage from the glalie user simply clicking double-edge. double-edge, ice shard, and explosion cover a lot of things, enabling you to run anything from eq to freeze-dry to spikes to super fang in the last slot. base 100 speed means that unlike something like clawitzer, it isn't relatively useless against offensive teams and it has prio ice shard to boot. nothing switches in safely on this, and it removes a lot of troublesome pokemon easily. really its biggest flaw is probably that it relies on boom and it takes a lot of residual damage, but it deserves at least a+ imo given that it wallbreaks really well, maybe even S at a push o.o
@Draciel @da raikage @Cirno and myself completely re-wrote the list again. A whole lot has changed so be sure to give it a good look over n_n
Why is Kabutops lower than Sandslash???? Kabutops can actually break some of the ghost types that it needs to, and has priority for random offensive mons, and hits incredibly hard. The only things that commonly switch into Kabutops are either crippled by Knock Off or take a lot anyway. Pinsir probably needs to be lower; Moxie sweeps are extremely rare, and require waaaay too much support to justify it, especially with the SR weakness. ~B or B+ Bronzong could probably drop to A-, it's not really great with all of the fire types and the lack of recovery on a steel. Garbodor is both literally and figuratively trash, drop to B- pls. There are 0 reasons this should be higher than Qwilfish, Omastar, and Weezing. Granbull might deserve a drop with Togetic and Audino and a lack of things it can /actually/ switch into consistently thanks to everything with Poison coverage and the number of mixed attackers. No recovery makes /attempting/ to stop Sawk a lot more difficult than it should be.
At the very least I think Kabutops should be the same as MANslash, since kabutops has: priority for the insane fire types in the tier, makes things like Rotom C and Eelektross reluctant to switch in, can reliably pressure Glalie and make it run away, defeats things like Togetic and Scyther by itself without really sacrificing move slots, more reliably pressures Vileplume, most grass types worth using, the list goes on. Kabutops is being criminally underrated here, and a fighting+electric weakness doesn't really work against it since Sawk KO's the Sandslash set that reliably beats ghosts (MANslash) while defensive sandslash loses to Gurdurr. Rotom c and Eelektross just laugh at it since it really wants toxic on defensive sets and Knock Off on offensive ones. On that note Sandslash is fine in B+ imo since its SD sets can beat mismag with lum and golurk without support. It and kabutops both have "problems" with Spiritomb but really Kabutops should be sitting with it in B+. Its STAB really gives it a better offensive edge than Sandslash in this metagame, and while you're not going to use defensive kabutops any time soon, defensive sandslash is pretty sub par on all accounts.
Moved Kabutops to B+ since it's actually quite threatening atm. Rest of the list looks pretty OK to me at this point, will have to test more to evaluate the suggested changes.
I somewhat agree on the Garbodor argument. However I wouldn't drop it to B- that's silly. I'd drop it to B+. Garbodor is ok and it's a decent spiker. Aftermath is nice and gives it an interesting niche. But in general its niche gives it no more of a place than the mentioned Qwilfish as a spiker or as a Poison type than Weezing. At least imo.
I'd say Garbodor's niche is what it's always been; the middle man. It has move Special bulk than Weezing or Qwilfish, more physical bulk than Roselia (and even Qwilfish if you ignore Intimidate), a decent base 75 Speed that's actually superior to Roselia's, far better than Weezing's, and only marginally worse than Qwilfish's. Dual Spikes is an obvious, due to it being about the only reason to use Garbodor, but it also gets an active recovery move in Drain Punch, which is hella useful for wearing shit down as well as keeping it healthy, while Weezing and Qwilfish have to make do with Pain Split or Rest. It also has lots of other weird stuff in its movepool including Rock Blast, Clear Smog and Infestation, to name a few interesting ones. It may lack a decent STAB (why does it learn Drain Punch, but not Poison Jab?! D: ), but it has a fair few moves the others would kill for, the best overall bulk out of all the pokemon listed in this post, and several oddities that make it useful. I'd say somewhere in the Bs is perfectly justifiable for Garbodor. After all, one man's trash...
Garbodor's lack of a water typing and better special bulk means that it checks grass-types much better than qwilfish, which includes stuff like Virizion and Lilligant, which obviously are relevant threats. It can also go defensive on both sides, meaning it is versatile. Unlike Weezing it gets both spikes and toxic spikes and can punish physical sweepers that go out of control with rocky helmet + aftermath. It also has the option to go offensive and while it doesn't get taunt like qwilfish, a max attack garb can also lure in stuff like Xatu or gastrodon and outspeed and 2hko them with gunk / seed bomb. Neutral on its placing but saying it's worse than the other two is a mistake.
The thing is, Garbo can't keep its hazards up (Qwil can at least Taunt shit), has to rely on sacrificing itself to considerable damage to numerous Pokemon, Qwilfish's movepool is just soooo much better (Dbond does a better job than Rocky helmet + Aftermath at taking things down), Qwil can spread status, Qwil can use Intimidate to incredible effect against NU's physical sweepers, Qwil can actually use Black Sludge and not have to rely on Drain Punch for healing (Pain Split's about as reliable, but Black Sludge really helps out). Qwil simply has far more options, which makes it much harder to switch into. Intimidate is also unbelievably useful for Qwilfish, since it makes prediction all that much less game defining. Qwil has a much easier time recovering from a misprediction or a stray EQ from Sawk or Granbull. This is also where Pain Split shines, since Qwil doesn't need to hit something weak to it to actually recover health. Qwil's Twave can also cripple incoming threats (like Cryo or Mesprit) which again helps it support the team. 252+ Atk Choice Band Sawk Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 160+ Def Garbodor: 312-368 (85.7 - 101%) -1 252+ Atk Choice Band Sawk Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Qwilfish: 204-242 (61 - 72.4%) Qwil also fares a lot better than Garb against most of NU spinners, not being 2HKO'd by Kabutops, giving Sandslash a great deal of stress switching in, does about as good against cryo, handles Mantine + Pelipper a good bit better (if you're using Taunt), Qwil does better against Torkoal as well. Garbodor's Special Bulk is barely relevant, since all of the the special Pokemon that Garb can switch into bar Virizion, Qwil and Weezing can too (Mega Audino), or can't switch into Qwil and Weezing (Lilligant) or end in a stalemate at best for Garb (and garb has a much harder time recovering health than either Weezing or Qwil). Weezing can handle physical sweepers just fine, since Clear Smog is a thing and doesn't require you to die to use it. Qwilfish also has Haze to prevent boosting shenanigans. Qwilfish does offensive just as well, if not better than Garbodor, since Qwil can suicide if needed, and requires far fewer Speed Evs to outpace NU's faster walls (85 outspeeds quite a bit more than 75, especially since NU hosts a lot of the base 80s now). Qwil also has access to priority which is simply great for a lure. Qwil also makes a better lead since it can taunt most of NU's hazard setters, while a lot of them fear Water STAB moves. Checking CM Virizion, and maybe Lilligant, doesn't really make up for all of the issues Garbo has, especially if you're using it for hazards (if you aren't then why the fuck are you using Garbo) which garbo cannot keep up well, and has a more longevity issues than Qwil when it comes to resetting hazards. I might have overstated things when I said B-, but it doesn't deserve to be in the same tier as things like Vileplume or Klingklang at all. Side note, Kabutops doesn't really struggle with Spiritomb 252 Atk Life Orb Kabutops Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Spiritomb: 133-157 (43.7 - 51.6%) -- 66.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery (that's just Jolly too, Adamant 2HKOs with rocks 100% and without ~35% It might not get a Spin off 100% of the time, but it requires much less effort than Sandslash to Spin, and is much more useful outside of a spinning role (hello Weak Armor revenge sweeps). Also, has anyone here used Pinsir to any great degree, every time I've faced it its never done enough to warrant being in A-,
I'll admit qwilfish has a much better movepool than garb but you're also forgetting some of the stuff garb can do as well. it also gets pain split if you fancy letting it live longer, and while it doesn't get taunt it can at least poison the defoggers or boom on them if you're that concerned about keeping hazards up. and yes while intimidate and destiny bond are nice, rocky helmet + aftermath is also very reliable if you're trying to emergency check a pokemon (qwil won't be able to destiny bond a faster threat and you don't have to sac 2 mons to do so). also garbodor gets both haze and clear smog (and explosion) so weezing and qwil don't have advantages over that. yeah intimidate helps a lot in switching into mispredictions, but then qwilfish is still badly crippled and doesn't punish opponents for using a wrong move or spamming u-turn as much. garbodor is also actually able to threaten the mons that it walls more than qwilfish: gunk shot hits much harder than waterfall and actually dents things + threatens them with poison and makes stuff like xatu or mesprit think twice about switching in. correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that checking grass-types over qwil is a pretty big deal especially with virizion and lilligant being extremely threatening. garbodor is the best mon to go to if you want something that checks fighting and grass types and provides both spikes (and an emergency check to stuff) in one slot and if you are less concerned about losing a bit of utility and ability to keep hazards up. don't think that is too far fetched, and honestly I'd forgo my ability to beat pelipper and sandslash if it means I can breathe a bit easier when trying to check virizion. I'm not saying that garbodor is objectively 100% better than qwilfish. I'm saying that garbodor is not worse than qwilfish.
-1 252 Atk Life Orb Virizion Leaf Blade vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Qwilfish: 87-105 (26 - 31.4%) -- 18.6% chance to 4HKO 252 Atk Life Orb Virizion Leaf Blade vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Qwilfish: 133-156 (39.8 - 46.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO 0 Atk Qwilfish Poison Jab vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Virizion: 218-258 (67.2 - 79.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO Qwilfish keeps Virizion in check just fine. Obviously it doesn't KO but qwilfish can still destiny bond on a slower member of the other team or taunt a defogger that doesn't bother it and pain split or just set up hazards if it's a pivot on offensive teams after Virizion switches out or kills itself on you. The only real edge Garbodor has in checking grass types is against rotom c and Lilligant, both of which can sleep or burn(or volt switch continuously) on switch ins then continue attempting to do their job. I've actually been running a rocky helmet qwilfish myself for a bit(and with it you definitely beat Virizion unless substantially weakened) and honestly the fact that it has intimidate has made it fair much better against pretty much everything in the tier Garbodor can check. The thing about Garbo is that outside of 1 or 2 grass types, everything it does is worse than Qwilfish which is why it has been such a niche pokemon for 2 generations now. And last gen it didn't have qwilfish to overshadow it. If qwilfish doesn't have the speed to destiny bond something Garbodor doesn't have the speed to explode when it's about to die, and bonding on switch ins actually gives some people a very awkward position to get out of, same way explosion does except you don't sacrifice a pokemon instantly; it gives you a window to think of what to do next. With intimidate, qwilfish normally doesn't even need something like Aftermath because if you build your team around it instead of expecting it to "save" you like Garbodor can sometimes, Intimidate is more than enough to keep in check all the banded or SD pokemon(like Virizion) you need it to. It doesn't have to just sacrifice itself like Garbodor to check things that go out of control because with taunt and intimidate things normally don't happen that way unless your opponent out plays you. Garbodor has to sacrifice itself completely to maybe put people in a difficult position. Qwilfish can do it on a whim and more easily on switches if something faster is incoming with destiny bond. Let's also not forget that most fighting types outside of Virizion do have access to Knock Off, which further hinders Garbodor's performance against them compared to what Qwilfish can do with its move pool and intimidate. I'm actually completely neutral on Garbodor's placement here, up to the point that saying it's on the same tier of general usefulness as Qwilfish because it's just not. Definitely does not deserve A- as long as Qwilfish isn't at least A rank, which qwil also doesn't deserve either but you could make a case for A- if you really wanted it there. Garbodor has too many things about it that scream "Hi I'm a completely niche glue you might find useful on your team!" When Qwilfish can universally fit on more of them easier unless you need quite specific jobs done in a match. Weezing is better at hazing physical seeepers, Qwilfish is the much better pivot and keeps its hazards down comparatively easier, and all three can't really reliably wall special threats outside of specific pokemon. Everything Garbodor can do is a specialized version of both of those pokemon, and its general usability is a tad bit worse for it. The only reason it's not worse at all is because of specific things that some teams can find answers for elsewhere, like AV Vital Spirit Magmortar for Lilligant and also nabs rotom c and Vileplume - and would love a choice item rotom can trick it! tl;dr Garbodor is just too niche of a mon to really warrant it being the same tier as Qwilfish when the bloat fish is so good by itself. And qwilfish can run a very successful Rocky Helmet set. Small edit: weezing also does get all three of explosion, haze and clear smog, having only 5 less base attack than garbodor to use boom with. Only thing it lacks are regular spikes and obviously the other assorted physical attacks garbodor has and gains will o wisp instead. And actually qwilfish can indeed learn explosion. Garbo's niche is decreasing more the longer I actually see what weezing has for a move pool on top of qwilfish being here.
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Virizion Giga Drain vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Qwilfish: 298-351 (89.2 - 105%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO i wouldn't consider Qwilfish a good check to Virizion at all since it flat out gets OHKOed by Virizion's other set, nor can it really do much lasting damage back to Virizion. I've also not heard of any Qwilfish that runs Poison Jab, and in doing so you're compounding its 4MSS a lot more, for one move that enables it to shakily check one mon. Garbodor doesn't explode on stuff, it just comes in on an opponent as it attacks and inflict 40% damage on it, making it much easier to take down. To get Qwilfish to do the same thing it would need to sacrifice a teammate, then come in and be faster than the opponent. In addition Destiny Bond is sometimes not as good because it also gives the opponent the liberty to play around Qwilfish. With Rocky Helmet + Aftermath you're forcing the damage onto the Pokemon that Garbodor is supposed to be inflicting emergency damage on. this is sometimes even more useful than intimidate, especially when you're staring down a boosted opponent that is faster than you, or an opponent that KOs you anyway and can just come back again. Both soak up Knock Off pretty well, and i don't get why knock off would hurt Garbodor more than qwilfish when both lose their item. and yes qwilfish does have a better status movepool but garbodor threatens opponents with its attacks much more as gunk shot is much more powerful than waterfall and threatens things with psn Completely niche? Garbodor in itself already provides a solid grass check (sure Lilligant can sleep you, but this applies to a lot of its checks, and a spdef garb can sleep through Lilli and win), especially being a really solid check to both Virizion sets. I find myself using qwilfish if maybe i need paralysis support or something, but i don't think it's more universal than garb. Part of the reason, I believe, is that qwilfish is a bulky water that checks neither fire-types nor water-types, which makes its water typing quite a liability as it just gives the team more weaknesses. In addition, apart from spreading intimidate and perhaps paralysis I don't really find qwilfish that threatening as waterfall is pretty weak. I would argue that garb is more universal as it can actually check more stuff thanks to its typing and its ability to actually harm them. Spikes is important
Samurott should be like A- or B+, it hits very hard, has great coverage, and has taunt to shut down most of NU's special walls, or can use SD for some variety. Its better than most of the things in B+ as it stands so it really doesn't belong in B.
Moved Samurott to A- because its really powerful with solid coverage, and it hits everything really hard with LO. Also moved Pinsir to B+ from A-
Updated with the tier changes. Changes made: Removed Glalie, Ferroseed, Swellow, Masquerain, Pinsir and Shuckle Added: Magneton to S: Extremely threatening, even more so with Dugtrio still in the tier. Golbat to A- : Excellent fighting/fairy check with access to Defog. Overall a solid utility mon that can fit on most teams. Claydol to B: Decent spinner with access to levitate and SR of its own, but quite passive and and loses to the spinblockers easily. So B ranking should be ok for it. Hitmonchan to B: Another spinner which can run offensive LO or Assault vest sets. Once again loses to most of the common spinblockers, or gets crippled by WoW. So should fit well in B for now.
Not so sure B's right for Claydol. Sure, it can spin, and it's practically immune to hazards, meaning it can keep on spinning, but it completely lacks recovery, and has crippling weaknesses to very common types (i.e. Water and Knock Off/Dark). Maybe a touch lower? B- or C+?
Claydol is very fat and has an interesting typing. Its resistances, immunities and movepool (Spin/Toxic/Dual STAB/Screens/Etc) give it uses that I'd say justify at least B.
I don't really see why Magneton is ranked higher than Rotom-C Rotom-C has more flexibility (Trick/WoW), stronger STAB, actually beats Lanturn, doesn't get trapped by Dugtrio, and is bulkier if Magneton isn't holding Eviolite... Obviously Magneton has its own upsides over Rotom-C but I don't see it being that much better than it
Made a bunch of changes which I should've done some time ago. Removed Dugtrio because it got banned. Rotom-C to S: Probably the best NU mon at the moment, can run Scarf/Specs/bulky WoW sets all of which are extremely effective. Rightfully deserves S ranking. Sneasel to A+: Fast and powerful sweeper with access to SD/priority and Pursuit as well, overall an excellent offensive mon. Kabutops to A-: Kabutops is a very threatening wallbreaker, with powerful dual STABs/SD/priority aqua jet. Weak armor is also a very useful ability for it, and at +1 speed can easily sweep late-game. So deserves a spot in A- tier. Stunfisk to B+: One of the more reliable magneton checks in the tier, also a decent SR setter with solid bulk and Static. EDIT: Some other changes I made: Hitmonchan, Lilligant to B+ Ambipom to B Torterra to B-
Misdreavus for possibly B-/C, though it's outclassed by Mismagius, it has a good nieche at running taunt wisp pain split hex. It did a lot of work for me and I think it should be considered for C at least
Servine really needs to drop. It's not very powerful without Specs and a boost, and without Eviolite its hardly bulky. Grass has terrible coverage, and there are a lot of things that Servine simply cannot hit hard enough (Registeel, Bronzong, Virizion) to not die. It's not fast enough to get away with such a low starting power and low bulk. Primeape deserves a bump up to B or B+. U-turn makes this thing a fantastic pivot, while Gunk Shot does enough that fairies will regret switching in. Defiant is a fun little tool to fuck over Qwilfish and Granbull. I also feel like Togetic should fall to B+ or B. It suffers from a lot of competition with MegAudino and with Golbat who do Bulky Fairy and Defog better respectively. The SR weakness makes walling things hard, especially if you can't get momentum. Some other things that are entirely opinionated - Samurott, Tauros, Klinklang, and Scrafty to A, Drapion to A+, Hariyama to A-, Granbull to B+.
i agree with most of the stuff said above, but I don't really agree that togetic does a worse job than golbat as it does have several advantages, such as pivoting a lot more easily with baton pass, having access to other nice moves like nasty plot / heal bell / twave, and taking on psychics like Mesprit much better. It can drop but I wouldn't rank it lower than Golbat. Also not too convinced that Primeape's access to U-turn makes it B+ worthy as it gives up a lot of power compared to using Sawk, can't switch into much, and the speed tier still isn't fantastic, so B seems like a better place for it I don't think Misdreavus should be ranked that high (ie. B-), Mismagius can also do the same thing but with the speed helping it to burn / taunt a lot of things faster before they can react even when it puts evs into bulk ---------------------- Tangrowth should probably rise. it's a great blanket check to a ton of things in the tier. a set of Giga Drain / EQ / Poison Jab / filler can check a whole bunch of physical attackers that don't have a super effective stab move. regenerator is a godly ability that basically allows it to switch into anything for free and even stay useful after accidentally being brought down to less than 10% or something. This set would counter physical Virizion, possibly one of the most threatening mons in the tier rn. It helps greatly in checking Sawk as it can switch in, figure out the move Sawk uses and whether or not it is banded, and switch back out to the appropriate teammate because it takes only slightly over half from banded cc and regenerator means it can always come back healthy. also counters the likes of Klinklang, pretty much every physical grass + rotom-c, pretty much every physical ground-type, pretty much every physical rock-type, pretty much every physical normal-type, and can easily be used as a pivot. easily a or a+ Rhydon can rise, it's another fantastic mon because it hard stops a lot of things (normals, birds, some poison-types) and can perform a lot of roles on the same set, having access to good moves like edgequake, sr, megahorn, double dance. apart from the compulsory eq + stone edge rhydon can otherwise be easily customized with the last 2 moveslots. sets with SD can help the team break through bulky boosters like CM Mush / CM Audino and heavily damage stuff like Gurdurr trying to switch in to check it, and so SD + rocks Rhydon is easily one of my favourite sets. It can perform so many roles really well, so it should definitely be somewhere in the a ranks clawitzer should drop out of A- down to maybe B. there aren't many cases when i would use it over samurott as samurott's special STAB still hits harder and is less predictable, it's slower, it doesn't have access to aqua jet so all the fire-types can actually safely stay in to 2HKO it, and u-turn doesn't quite justify its A- ranking Registeel can also drop out of A- imo, it's easy to take advantage of as it's very passive and relies heavily on twave to do much back to offensive mons, plus it doesn't have reliable recovery so it can't wall as many things as it would like. doesn't fit too nicely on offensive teams, and it probably fits better in B+ ambipom and cryogonal are ranked a little high, ambipom isn't that good and cinccino / tauros are here to outshine it, while cryo's bad defense is exploited too easily and its coverage is awful, more often making it a liability than a useful team member. A bunch of other changes in the lower ranks that look good to me are: Barbaracle and Carracosta from C+ to B-, Articuno from C to C+, Ursaring from B- to C+, Rotom-F from C- to C+/C, Rampardos from C- to C, Whirlipede and Meganium from C to C-, and removing Croconaw, Pikachu, Tangela, Walrein, and Bastiodon -- they aren't worth using at all.
Honestly this thread needs a lot of stuff shifted IMO....like shit so many of the rankings are contradictory. Absolute Garbage that shouldn't be listed or dropped to a whole new rank: Mightyena: Seriously this thing is garbage, shouldn't even be listed AT ALL. Croconaw: ^See above. Just because it has the same shit as Gatr, doesn't mean it can come close to filling its shoes. Bastiodon: D rank in all honesty. It doesn't have a niche at all in this meta Raticate: Lol Slaking: lol Pikachu Whirlipede Walrein Armaldo Stuff that isn't complete trash but has no reason to be used ATM or very unusable Mantine: No Typhlosion, no reason to use this. Magneton&Rotom-C being so good make this. Lanturn being a common&great pivot serves as a detriment to the stingray as well. What does it really do? Servine: Why is this so high? It's only niche is on sticky web teams. Needs a few turns to ramp up and it's speed tier isn't THAT great. Use it to abuse Xatu bouncing your webs back with shit like Malamar&Pawniard. Ursaring: solid C IMO. So many other normal types I'd use in a heartbeat over it. A shitty Zangoose. Stoutland: Is sand even a thing? Fraxure: Still slow after a boost unless you run Jolly in which case you miss out on crucial KOs Still V Good but should be a bit lower Sigilyph: Lower to A or A- IMO. A superb mon but so much other high rank shit has a great match up vs it Probably should rise Leavanny: Should probably rise given that Masq is gone so it makes it comparatively better as a sticky web user
Mantine walls Samurott and Defogs which is something I guess, especially since nobody is going to run HP Electric with Lanturn and Gastro being in the tier I don't actually know what Prinplup is doing in B- tier though (or even being on the list at all to begin with) Actually if you knocked every NFE down a letter rank or so except for Gurdurr it'd probably look a lot better imo
Remove mons that rised Here are my noms on the drops: Spoiler A+/S Mega Camel is one of the heaviest hitters in the format, being one of the best wall breakers in NU. 145 Sp.Atk coupled with Sheer Force is completely devastating and difficult for any wall to come in. It also has decent support moves in Stealth Rock and WoW, becoming a tank if needed to. The only thing really that holds it back is it's abysmal 20 Spd coupled with it's rather poor Fire/Ground defensive typing, meaning any relevant water type can outspeed it and most of the time OHKO it. However, most of these water types really don't appreciate switching in on STAB and Sheer Force boosted Earth Power's. Being the only mega, also means that there is absolutely zero opportunity cost in using it, and can be splashed on any offensive team really. Definitely high/top tier. Spoiler A/A+ Escavalier is also extremely powerful and amazing at wall breaking aswell. 135 Atk with the ability to hold items like Choice Band to further enhance it's monstrous attack. It also holds above average bulk with 105 defenses and powerful moves to abuse in Megahorn and Iron Head. It is a great trapper to Psychics thanks to Pursuit, and checks some of the metas most prominent threats in Klingklang, Vivillion, Kangaskhan, etc... The main drawback of it is exactly like Mega Camel in that it also possess poor speed, meaning it has to take a hit before it can dish out damage. However, Bug/Steel is amazing defensively, meaning most the time it will be able to sponge a few attacks. Amazing mons that should be high tier. Spoiler C/C+ Masquerain really does not appreciate the NU environment due tot the fierce competition it has to face with Vivillion, like all the other butteflies must do. However, it carves itself a niche with Sticky Webs and Intimidate + Quiver Dance, meaning it can find some opportunities to setup, although it envies not to have Sleep Powder. Really didn't test too much with it, but this is what i'm feeling so far. Spoiler B+/A- Shuckle is an amazing support mon in NU thanks to it having Sticky Webs and Stealth Rocks and having titanic defenses. It also has good moves to use like Infestation, Toxic, Encore and Knock Off to effectively annoy and potentially grab a kill. Mental Herb lead set is what I have been using with Mega Camel, as it immensily supports it due to lowering opposing speeds. Shuckle has defenitely influenced the hazards game in NU, and it's ranking should reflect that. Haven't used regular Camel, so no opinion on that
(Mega) Camerupt is the easiest S ever, its existence forces literally every Steel type not Escavalier out of the metagame, Fire Blast just destroys anything it hits for neutral damage, it is the definition of tier warping and it makes any defensive or support Poke that can't touch it a fairly large liability to run on any team With Rotom-C and Magneton gone I think it makes sense for Lanturn to be S-rank I think Esca makes sense in A, being vulnerable to burns and there being many resists to its main STAB constrains it plus HP Fire being readily available to like 90% of the Pokemon Esca wants to switch in on. Probably would bump up if/when (when) one of its best checks in Mega Camerupt gets banned, which would also make Wish support actually feasible to run Shuckle is very good and probably deserves somewhere in the A/A- range as it both sets up hazards (incl. Sticky Web) consistently and can disrupt opposing hazards leads with Encore plus its bulk means that it isn't necessarily a suicide lead unlike most other Sticky Web users Mantine should move up to B+ and most Steels should probably drop a rank as long as Esca and Mega Camerupt are NU and flavor of the month
So it seemed like time for an update of the viability listings, due to the loss of a ton of NU's most threatening Pokemon (Sneasel, Virizion, Drapion, Magneton, Rotom-C, etc). So a more or less complete overhaul was done. The new rankings are in the spoilers below, and will be added to the OP whenever I/someone have the time / effort to do so. Spoiler Gallade - S+ Sawk -S Chesnaught - S? Escavalier - A+ Gurdurr – A+ Magmortar – A+ Mega Audino - A+ Mesprit – A+ Musharna – A+ Spiritomb – A+ Tangrowth – A+ Vaporeon - A+? Hariyama – A Houndoom – A Kabutops – A Kangaskhan – A Lanturn – A Registeel – A Scyther – A Vileplume – A Vivilion – A Bronzong – A- Cincinno – A- Clawitzer – A- Eelektross – A- Klinklang – A- Mismagius – A- Rhydon - A- Scrafty – A- Shiftry – A- Tauros – A- Xatu – A- Zangoose - A- Gastrodon – B+ Golurk – B+ Granbull – B+ Jynx – B+ Kecleon - B+ Lilligant – B+ Mawile - B+ Omastar – B+ Primeape - B+ Regirock - B+ Rotom - B+ Skuntank - B+ Togetic – B+ Weezing - B+ Accelgor - B Ambipom - B Carracosta - B Cofagrigus – B Crustle – B Exeggutor - B Garbodor – B Gorebyss – B Gourgeist-XL - B Gourgeist-S - B Hitmonchan – B Lickilicky - B Ludicolo – B Mantine - B Pelipper - B Piloswine - B Poliwrath – B Pyroar – B Qwilfish – B Sandslash - B Stunfisk - B Aurorus - B- Beheeyem - B- Bouffalant - B- Cacturne – B- Claydol - B- Ferroseed - B- Huntail - B- Liepard - B- Miltank - B- Misdreavus - B- Monferno - B- Muk - B- Nintales - B- Pawniard - B- Rotom-S - B- Throh - B- Torterra - B- Trevenant - B- Ursaring - B- Articuno - C+ Avalugg - C+ Barbaracle - C+ Combusken - C+ Cradily - C+ Cryogonal - C+ Dodrio - C+ Drifblim - C+ Floatzel - C+ Gogoat - C+ Golem - C+ Haunter - C+ Jumpluff - C+ Marowak - C+ Ninjask - C+ Raichu - C+ Regice - C+ Sawsbuck - C+ Shuckle - C+ Stoutland - C+ Swoobat - C+ Tangela - C+ Victreebel - C+ Whirlipede - C+ Altaria - C Arbok - C Duosion - C Dusknoir - C Electabuzz - C Flareon - C Fraxure - C Frogadier - C Gabite - C Kadabra - C Kingler - C Lapras - C Leavanny - C Linoone - C Mr. Mime - C Probopass - C Raticate - C Relicanth - C Roselia - C Rotom-F - C SLIGGOO - C Ariados - C- Armaldo - C Bastiodon - C- Carbink - C- Ditto - C- Dragonair - C- Dusclops - C- Furfrou - C- Gigalith - C- Glaceon - C- Heatmor - C- Leafeon - C- Machoke - C- Magcargo - C- Meganium - C- Mightyena - C- Munchlax - C- Murkrow - C- Pikachu - C- Prinplup - C- Purugly - C- Rampardos - C- Rapidash - C- Servine - C- Seviper - C- Torkoal - C- Volbeat - C- Whiscash - C- Zebstrika - C- Zweilious - C- Butterfree - D Clefairy - D Croconaw - D Electrode - D Hypno - D Luxray - D Regigigas - D Shedinja - D Slaking - D Swanna - D Walrein - D Wartortle - D Wormadam-S - D OP has been updated, please feel free to note any irregularities.
hi is vaporeon UU or NU? it's legal on the ladder on PO + is on this VR, but in the tier listing on the main forum it's listed as UU as pointed out by my friend rozes would like confirmation before i have to play this week for powc please *-*
whatever it is on the PO main server/ladder is correct with 99% likelihood. i will tag @Draciel who leads NU/tiering administration and runs the tournament to make sure and he can confirm this in the next ~12 hours
Vaporeon is allowed in tiers: ORAS Ubers, ORAS OU, ORAS UU, ORAS LU, ORAS NU If you're unsure about what pokemon is in what tier, just go in the server and type /tier pokemon and you'll see in what tier it is. Also just to note I haven't seen too much of Vaporeon recently so I don't know how powerful it is yet. Also i'll update the list Edit: Batman actually updated before I did
Proposing additions regarding latest shifts: Archeops to A-: Good lead Stealth Rock setter; has handy moves like Taunt, Defog, U-Turn; has great Attack before Defeatist; has great Speed tier. Fletchinder to A-: Priority Acrobatics and Roost; can be effective Swords Dance sweeper and revenge killer; can't do much to Rock-types outside of Will-O-Wisp. Magneton to A+: Great Choice Scarf or Choice Specs user; all three abilities (Study, Analytic, and Magnet Pull) can be useful; is also somewhat bulky with Eviolite. Jolteon to A: Excellent Choice Specs user due to its combination of Speed and Special Attack; Speed tier makes it very threatening when Electric absorbers are removed. Mandibuzz to A+: Extremely good bulk for NU; supports the team with Defog and Taunt; beats most physical setup Pokemon with Foul Play; Overcoat protects it from Sleep Powder. Not proposing a rank for Mega Glalie because I think it should be suspected next. STAB Refrigerate Double Edge hits for massive damage to things that don't resist it, and it is only resisted by Steel, Fire, Water, Ice, and Thick Fat. Steel- and Fire-types get bopped by Earthquake, and Water-types get bopped by Freeze-Dry. Avalugg and Walrein are the only notable Ice-types that can switch into it, and Hariyama can check it with Thick Fat and priority. Speaking of priority, Mega Glalie gets Ice Shard too. Not proposing a rank for Hoopa because I think it should be suspected as well. It has sky high Special Attack and Special Defense. For example, Assault Vest Hoopa without any defensive investment can survive Choice Specs Adaptability Draco Meteor from Dragalge who was recently banned. Hoopa also hits hard with its base 150 Special Attack on both defensive spectrum with its STAB combination of Psyshock and Shadow Ball, and for Dark-types that resist this combination, it has Focus Blast. Its Speed does hold it back though because it is threatened by faster physical attackers.
Vap to A Lanturn to A+ Jolt to A Magneton to A Mandibuzz to A Archeop to A- Jynx to A- Tauros to A Glalie to C Rotom to A- Pyroar to A- Samurott to A Baby Hippo to B- Stoutland to A- Will update OP shortly
-Raticate to UR/D - why is this ranked lol, it basically has no niche over any other normal type in tier, while it does have u-turn i dont see the reason to ever use this pokemon over Swellow which can run the same set(but specs is more effective), zangoose which has access to close combat and can actually hit rock/steel types while crippling something with knock off, and clearly the superior option for hazard based teams(kangaskhan). -While at this, Tauros should move up to at least A+, due to the great speed tier which outspeeds most of NU,great coverage which allows it to shit on balance and offense, and even boosting move in Work up that allows it to put pressure to more stall builds, its power coming from sheer force+ LO is no joke while having enough bulk to take on any hit and not being revenged. -Musharna to A, this pokemon offers nice utility (normal,psychic,fighting check), can be a decent wincond with Cm or a cleric for balance, but its stopped by way too many common mons in NU(skuntank ,regi etc..) and isnt really A+ worthy, vulnerable to hazards and status if it doesnt run heal bell, usually fight for its 4th moveslot, not being able to drypass or CM pass due to BP being banned on PO is pretty big, since its one of biggest niches for mushy. -Audino to A+, this mon is way too passive and isnt really worthy running outside of stallish builds, theres definitely more drawbacks than benefits of using it due to being setup bait for every single sweeper and hazards, Cm set needs plenty of boosts to be threatening and its prety much stopped by any taunt user, while offensive CM is pretty mediocre and easier to take down. Still a pretty bulky pokemon and ok-ish addition to bulkier teams so drop to A+/a is fair. -Kabutops drop to B+/B, considering damp rock isnt available in NU, kabutops doesnt have many niches in the tier, SD set is done more effectively by samurott due to more setup opportunities(bulk,typing) and torrent ability +Megahorn which is pretty big, while Rapid Spin is prety bad on kabutops considering its revenged by anything, theres plenty better hazards removers for BO/balance. -Shiftry to A, one of most threatening pokemon in tier due to the lack of knock off switchins not called audino, can run lure set with extrasensory/ SD set which is a pretty strong wincond and explosion which can give setup opportunities for teammates that benefit from skuntank/garb/weez weakened/dead. Sucker Punch priority is amazing which makes it great anti offense mon. -Klinklang to B, unfortunately for klinklang theres a plenty of todays metagame mons that effectively check it, while many of them dont even give it setup opportunities. While klinklang may look decent with its above average bulk, repeadetly switching it into ice/grass/psychic mons will result in dead klinklang. I cant even count how many of mons stop klinklang in some kind of way and are great rn( hitmonchan,gurdurr,regi,magneton,gastro,etc...) -Garbodor to A, why is the Best spiker in tier ranked so low ?.? like literally the decent bulk it has and plenty of pokemon like audino/vileplume/gurdur/hariyama it can freely set up both spikes and toxic spikes, Aftermath+rocky helmet combo that may prevent spinners from removing hazards and while at that, it has great matchup vs hitmonchan which is best spinner, while shiftry if it clicks defog it just dies from gunk shot. It can also run both defensive and offensive set, and has plenty of options for 4th slot depending on team. Fits from HO/BO to some balances/semi stall archetypes. -Stoutland to B/B- , Sand is really mediocre playstyle and rather limited to what you can use on it, its rare and not that good, outside of sand stoutland isnt really effective compared to kangaskhan which gets scrappy+double priority, and there are better wallbreakers or Scarf users, sry but this pokemon just isnt fitting in A. -Pyroar to A, great speed tier and dual typing with strong stabs, which allows it to click hyper voice without caring for mons like lanturn which takes massive chunk, hp grass ohkoes any potentialy shell smasher, while 4th slot can be wisp/taunt/overheat/fthrower depending on which item you run and what you need, wild charge is also decent if you wanna lure mantine/pelipper for samurott sweep etc.. -Zangoose to B, this mon may be strong, but being wore down too quickly is one of the main drawbacks, since its picked off by any priority move and revenged by anything, not to mention there are better cleaners like swellow. -Purugly to Unranked, again another mon that has no niche over any other normal type, despite having defiant its attack is not impressive even if it manages to get +2, and it cant switchin on any defoger safely, no reason to run this over tauros or swellow. -Weezing to A-, great defensive mon and blanket check to plenty of physical threats, poison typing + levitate is so good in NU, giving it answer to fighting/ground/grass/audino, not to mention access to Will-o-wisp and Taunt+pain split gives it great matchup vs more passive builds.. -Whirlipede to Unranked, this mon has no niche in NU over any other spiker, despite having speed boosting its not outspeeding anything at +1 rofl, youre better off running Garb which can check more pokemon and run defensive and offensive set more effectively. -Jynx to A, Jynx dual stab is pretty much unmatched in NU, giving it ability to hit any ice checks like hariyama/magmortar/lanturn pretty hard with psyshock, and despite its physical frailty its special bulk is quite decent and can check some water/ice types. Its one of most threatening balance breakers, and sash is scariest item since it gives it second chance of sweeping. -Barbaracle to B+, this threat cant just sit in C rank with all the mediocre mons like cradily, with access to shell smash+tough claws it can sweep any unprepared team after a boost. Another cool set is scarf with 4 atk or switcheroo, which can surprize revenge some threats or cripple balance builds. Its also pretty bulky which gives it easier setup opportunities with SS, and with scarf it can switch on mons like jynx/normal/flying types. -These were just on top of my head since theres more of pokemon to discuss here