[ORAS] ORAS NU Viability Rankings

Discussion in 'Past Gens Discussion' started by Weavile, Nov 26, 2014.

  1. Draciel

    Draciel ALLEZ! ALLEZ! ALLEZ!

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    Agreed that Heliolisk warrants a higher rank, so moved it to A+. Rearranging them alphabetically is a pain though :^[

    Gonna advocate Pangoro for A or A+ even, it's pretty retarded atm, and has zero switchins. It can run SD/Choice band /AV sets all of which are extremely good. So definitely warrants a higher position.

    Also agreeing that Froslass could go higher, I think A+ would be good for it.
     
  2. Weavile

    Weavile Phoenix

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    Pokémon (Current Rank) (Proposed Change) [Explanation]

    Tauros (C) (Up) Possibly B-, at least C+. It's an extremely strong hitter against anything but the fattest of walls. I can't see it lower than Stoutland or Sawsbuck at all.
    Granbull (B) (Up) Probably B+, I don't like Granbull at all but I would argue that it performs better than the current B tier.
    Lanturn (B) (Up) Literally exactly the same comment as above but replace Granbull with Lanturn
    Shiftry (B) (Up) Best offensive defogger. Its frailty isn't too much of an issue, its Knock is powerful and so is its Leaf Storm. Probably B+ but I might even stretch to A-
    Omastar (B) (Up) Good smasher and good hazard setter, could do better on the typing front but we can't all be perfect. I'd say this is B+ at least.
    Garbodor (B-) (Up) Neat poison type with a neat ability and access to normal spikes to distinguish itself from Drapion. I'd say B+ but B is probably fine.
    Sandslash (B-) (Up) I hate Sandslash. But it's not a bad spinner really, especially since our options are limited for them. B is probably ok but I would go as far as B+
    Clawitzer (B) (Up) Seriously powerful Pokémon. Not easy to wall at all without something like Mega Audino, with Milotic on its way out this gets one less good counter. B+ imo.
    Sigilyph (A-) (Up) Sigilyph is a fucking monster. Tears down stall and poses a credible threat to offense. This is A imo.
    Pangoro (A-) (Up) Well we're probably banning it soon but that's an A+/S tier mon right there.
    Fletchinder (A-) (Up) Another extreme threat. Priority Acro and Wisp allow it to take on most everything the tier has to offer to some respectable degree. It's not hard to support and can easily sweep. A at least imo.
     
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  3. Dr. Doom

    Dr. Doom Long time hater of stall

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    Agree with all of those apart from Fletchinder. It's a great revenge killer, but it's weak before boosting and very fragile.
     
  4. Spoovo The Pirate

    Spoovo The Pirate Meep! Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    All makes sense to me. And Doom, Fletch may be underpowered and frail before setup, but just remember how easily it can set up. Most Rock/Steel-types won't wanna come in because of Will-o-Wisp, and everything else is threatened by its Acrobatics aside from rare bulky Electrics. I reckon Weavile's placing is good for it.
     
  5. Draciel

    Draciel ALLEZ! ALLEZ! ALLEZ!

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    Agreeing with all the proposed changes that Weavile mentioned.
    Tauros C -->B at least, I'm actually surprised it was at C and that we didn't move it up earlier. LO+sheer force+great coverage, it's very powerful indeed.
    Shiftry B --> A-/A. Best offensive defogger, really strong with LO.
    Fletchinder to A.

    Adding for suggestions:
    Cinncino: B+ --> A-. The LO set is surprisingly strong with Tail Slap/Bullet seed/Knock off/Rock Blast hitting most things hard. Also amazing speed tier allowing it to outspeed almost everything in the tier.

    Hariyama B+ -->A-. Hariyama is amazing atm, Good bulk and Thick Fat+Assault Vest allows it to check the fire/ice spam quite easily while having excellent firepower and hitting everything hard.

    Klinklang B --> B+. Shift Gear+Gear Grind makes it a deadly late-game sweeper, while having enough bulk to set up on most mons. I wouldn't mind with A- too tbh.

    Weezing C+ -->B-/B. Solid physical wall with WoW; also has Toxic Spikes/Clear Smog as handy utility moves. Deserves a higher ranking imo.

    EDIT: Forgot the insect
    Whirlipede Unranked --> C+/C. One of the few mons that has access to Spikes/Toxic Spikes together;has decent bulk with eviolite and a 4x fighting resistance. Speed Boost+Endeavour is a very potent combo, especially against mons that have no reliable recovery. So deserves a place in the rankings :]
     
    Last edited: May 12, 2015
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  6. Green Soul

    Green Soul New Member

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    Granbull should really be B+ or even A- its a solid check to most of the high tier fighting types we currently have like virizion sawk and gurdur. It also has really high attack so a choice band variant is really hard to switch in to because granbull does not only have the monopoly on physical stab fairy moves but also has great coverage in eq,fire punch + stone edge/cc
     
  7. Weavile

    Weavile Phoenix

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    I did most everything there. I put Weezing in B- because I had already done B by that point and forgot about it. If someone wants to move it up be my guest.
    Also while you're at it I'd suggest moving Chatot down to B-
     
  8. Draciel

    Draciel ALLEZ! ALLEZ! ALLEZ!

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    "k"
    Added Weezing to B
    Moved Chatot to B-
    Also added Whirlipede to C.
     
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  9. Weavile

    Weavile Phoenix

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    eyo I feel like we've greatly understated Avalugg. Especially with Milotic now gone it just got a little better. I would say it's C+ much more than C-
     
  10. scorpdestroyer

    scorpdestroyer Active Member

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    I'm probably quite late on most of this but I genuinely feel that a lot of stuff on the rankings don't reflect their actual viability. I'm probably not in the greatest position to question this as my PO NU experience is probably inferior but as far as I know, this is a "viability ranking", which is supposed to be a list of Pokemon in terms of viability.

    I don't know how much my definition of viability differs, but to what I know a Pokemon is viable if there's a good reason to use it over another similar Pokemon in a team (ie has a unique role), and the better the Pokemon performs that role, the more viable it is.

    Conversely, a Pokemon that performs in a role well doesn't necessarily make it viable if there's some other Pokemon that completely eclipses it -- this mon would probably fall in the C or D rankings somewhere because it's simply not as viable, as there's little reason to use it when a better option exists. To quote a post in the thread that supports whatever I've established:
    Bold part of the quote above implies: if a Pokemon performs worse in a role than another, it isn't viable because it's shit in relation to another similar Pokemon and has no unique place to fit.

    There are some stuff I feel should change but the ones that stand out to me are: Throh in B, Sandslash in B+, Malamar in A, and the proposed Avalugg to C+

    Alright, I acknowledge that Throh does RestTalk Bulk Up better than Gurdurr. I'm not so sure if that's the case for Throh vs Hariyama since Hariyama has more resistances, is slightly faster meaning it can outrun more stuff with fewer EVs, and also hits harder off the bat, making it less dead weight vs offensive teams and freeing up teambuilding slots. However I'm just going to give the benefit that Throh is better at this role of RestTalk Bulk Up (which I highly doubt) and go from there.

    So we'll just establish that Throh's niche is a bulky RestTalk + Bulk Up set. Remember, it's viable if there's a good reason to fit it into a team. But there isn't a good reason to fit Throh into a team.

    RestTalk BU is so incredibly niche that realistically, the only reason you'd try and put it in is if you're building around Throh. You don't just go "wow my team would really like a RestTalk Bulk Up user right now" halfway through teambuilding. Compare this with Gurdurr and Hariyama. It is perfectly reasonable to think "wow I could do with a catch-all check to Normal- and Rock-types" or "wow my team could use an Ice resist and a Shiftry check that hits hard".

    In addition, RestTalk BU Throh isn't a worthwhile pokemon to build around. Sure, it can work in some rare cases, like if the opponent brings stall without a bulky ghost or something, but the set has a multitude of problems:

    - it is hard walled by any Ghost-type or Psychic-type. this means you're having a much harder time supporting Throh than Gurdurr or Hariyama, which can at least pose some semblance of a threat to Fighting resists
    - it doesn't hit hard prior to set up, so you're mostly limited to shuffling and chipping away before that. this means that Throh's teammates have to work much harder just to ensure Throh gets a chance to set up (thus making it dead weight vs a team that doesn't allow it to), unlike Gurdurr and Hariyama which can still accomplish something despite a poor matchup and with less team support
    - it's dead weight vs offense, because you can't really threaten the things you would like to with the poor STAB move. in addition greater offensive pressure = less chance to set up. this means that bringing Throh will not give you a good matchup against a very common playstyle, unlike Gurdurr and Hariyama which almost always do something useful regardless of matchup
    - guess what's the most common playstyle?
    - the opportunity cost of using Throh is way too great. you're giving up the priority and STAB semi-recovery move that Gurdurr provides. or, you're giving up the priority, hard hitting move, and/or extra resistances that Yama provides. all of this for... the ability to RestTalk Bulk Up slightly better than the other two.

    I honestly think all of those above points make Throh a Pokemon worthy of D, since there is zero reason I would consider Throh over the other Fighting-types = not viable. If anything it certainly isn't on par with the likes of Cofagrigus, Rhydon, and Kabutops.

    ---

    This post is quite long so I'll be brief as to why I think the others are over ranked:
    Malamar: It's not as good as A. Strong special attacks can overwhelm it, while bulky Ghost-types aren't too uncommon and those usually hard wall Malamar. it's good but placing it alongside those other A mons is overrating it in my opinion
    Sandslash: slow and lacks reliable recovery which means it gets worn down really easily. it doesn't find a lot of chances to switch in because most things can do reasonable damage to it. B+ is giving its spinning ability more credit than it's worth, and that's actually placing it above Claydol and Kabutops.
    Avalugg: there's almost nothing that would justify using a physically defensive ice-type on my team since it doesn't resist anything useful and is weak to a lot of relevant stuff. rapid spin is cool, yeah, but another bulky spinner or defogger that isn't forced to recover each time it comes in (sr + switching into a not piss weak attack would do enough to force that) would almost always be my preferred choice.

    Also, this is probably a mistake but I don't see Dugtrio and Banette on the rankings :o
     
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  11. Weavile

    Weavile Phoenix

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    Yeah anything obvious missing from the rankings is my bad from a couple days ago where I fucked up the formatting and had to re-write some of it.

    Well your assessment of this list being incorrect in general would depend on how you define "viable"
    If you define viable as "what objective reason do I have to run it over something else that does similar things" then yes, I would say this list falls short in more than a few places.
    If you define viable as "how good is this Pokémon if I were to rank it out of 10 on its own merits" I would say this list is a lot more accurate.

    How we should define "viable" is probably a discussion topic, but the rank descriptions would imply the latter definition more than the former and so I subscribe to the latter definition. When I said "in relation to each other" I didn't mean so much "what's outclassed by what" as "on the same scale".

    Sandslash being above Claydol and Kabutops is wrong, Claydol and Kabutops should move up with it I quite agree.
    Malamar is really good. There are only a couple bulky ghost types. Sdef Jellicent takes 70% from +0 Knock so I wouldn't call that a good check. Spiritomb with Rest will 1v1 Malamar but non-rest sets won't. Cofagrigus has a hard time as offensive sets are hit for a clean 50% by Knock and defensive sets can't touch Malamar in return. Banette has Dbond so it does what it does to everything else. I think you simply underestimate the squid.
    252 SpA Life Orb Virizion Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Malamar: 173-204 (46 - 54.2%) -- 4.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
    252 SpA Mega Abomasnow Blizzard vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Malamar: 157-186 (41.7 - 49.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after hail damage and Leftovers recovery
    252 SpA Life Orb Heliolisk Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Malamar: 146-173 (38.8 - 46%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
    252 SpA Choice Specs Rotom-C Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Malamar: 165-195 (43.8 - 51.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
    252 SpA Life Orb Mesprit Dazzling Gleam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Malamar: 172-203 (45.7 - 53.9%) -- 2.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

    About the only special attacks that actually cleanly 2KO this are Typh's max HP Eruption (which can be made to not 2KO with a simple Superpower) or specs Typh's Fire Blasts, or LO Magmortar's Fire Blasts. Well that is excluding Bug Buzz Vivillon of course, that's an obvious OHKO.

    Avalugg is trash, I would not use it. But it's better than Armaldo (in C) in that it actually CAN recover and it takes physical hits better. They're both bad rock-weak spinners that you probably shouldn't use.
     
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  12. East's Mascot

    East's Mascot The Tyrant

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    I think both Claydol and Sandslash should move down to B- as I have a hard time justifying using either of them. Sandslash has nice physical bulk and STAB EQ alongside Rapid Spin and Stealth Rocks, but it's SpDef is terrible and it seldom lives long. Claydol looks a lot bulkier than it is and just has too many weaknesses which means it walls almost nothing, it's only use is that it has Rapid Spin.

    Malamar is probably a little too high at A and should move down to A-, but it shouldn't be slept on as it's still a huge threat right now. Most Psychic types can beat it by using Signal Beam, but the current meta favors Dazzling Gleam/Moonblast to hit things like Spiritomb/Scrafty/Pangoro which leaves Malamar more wiggle room to beat them. Obviously Fairy type moves hit Mala for SE damage, but they don;t usually do enough to 2hko and can ko'd in return by a +1 Knock Off (assuming they switched into Superpower).

    Throh is one that I never understood why we ranked it so highly, I find it largely outclassed by the aforementioned Gurdurr and Hariyama as a bulky fighting type. It's niche is obviously different in that it uses RestTalk to increase it's longevity, but that makes it incredibly linear and makes it lose to pretty much any Fairy/Psychic/Ghost type. It requires WAY too much support to be placed in the B ranks, I'd move this down to C.

    Avalaugg and Armaldo should both be moved down to D rank or at least C- honestly instead of moving one up to match the other, I have no way of justifying using either and have not seen one team where I thought that the role they preformed was unique enough warrant using them over any other hazard removal/setter.
     
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  13. Draciel

    Draciel ALLEZ! ALLEZ! ALLEZ!

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    Apparently Weavile missed the two of them while re-doing the list; I've put them back (Banette to A- and Dugtrio to B).

    Considering the lack of quality spinners we have, Sandslash and Claydol are both semi-decent choices but they could be moved down a notch to B or B- maybe; Sandslash has a niche with Knock Off and good physical bulk, but Claydol does have better overall bulk. They really suffer from lack of recovery tbh.

    I think Malamar deserves A, it's special bulk is better than it seems, as you can see from the calcs weavile posted. Considering Ghost types, Spdef Jellicent loses to it, Cofagrigus loses to it; Spiritomb with Rest can beat it reliably though. Still think it reaches win-con way too fast.

    Avalugg is bad, it's probably a C- mon along with Armaldo.
     
  14. Spoovo The Pirate

    Spoovo The Pirate Meep! Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    ^Not to mention Sandslash can actually damage things too with its good Attack stat; Claydol just kinda sits there.

    And Scorp: While some mons may outperform others in specific roles, that does not make the latter necessarily outclassed. Take Sandlash vs Claydol vs Kabutops as SR Setters + Spinners for an example.

    Sandslash has pure Ground typing, meaning only two weaknesses and no quadruple, while it also has a good Attack stat and Swords Dance to put up a fight if it needs to.

    Kabutops also has most of these features, however its Water/Rock typing, while just as good offensively, lands it an Electric weakness and a quad Grass weakness, making it less capable a spinner against teams that packed a lot of Volt Switch users, for example.

    Lastly, while Claydol has by far the best survivability of the two, it's practically useless when it comes to actually threatening things. Unless the target is literally weak to one of its STABs (or VERY frail), it won't be doing a lot of damage to them anytime soon.

    So while one may be better than the other(s) as a spinner overall, said superior spinner could be an inferior attacker (case in point, Sandslash vs Claydol), different teams require different pokemon to fill the role, and thus all are on the viability rankings, albeit in varying places.

    Make sense?
     
  15. Green Soul

    Green Soul New Member

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    I think Aurorus should be a bit higher than C- because yes it has horrific defensive typing and mediocre speed but it has two good abilities good bulk and good offensive power. It also has good offensive typing in rock ice and very good coverage in earth power and thunder bolt it can be a good wallbreaker and hard to switch in to.
    About C+ rank seems more fitting to me.
     
  16. scorpdestroyer

    scorpdestroyer Active Member

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    I respectfully disagree with this. Whichever definition you subscribe to, a Pokemon's viability will always be determined in relation to other Pokemon's.

    If, in a hypothetical scenario, Conkeldurr drops to NU, would Gurdurr still be ranked in A-? Certainly not, it would probably be unranked because why would you use Gurdurr in a tier where Conkeldurr exists? Gurdurr's traits would still be good in a vacuum, but when you place it inside a metagame where other Pokemon outshine it, its positive traits are significantly less valuable.

    This list is a resource to show players which mons are worth fitting into their teams, and to what degree they are worth using (please correct me if I am mistaken). By putting completely outclassed Pokemon in a high rank based on their traits examined in a vacuum, you're sending a message that this Pokemon is worth being put into a team, when in reality it is completely not worth using at all.

    I hope the people running the thread consider reranking the Pokemon based on how useful their niches are on a team. If this has already been discussed and decided against then I won't pursue it further

    sorry if I wasn't clear but I didn't mean to say that Sandslash is completely outclassed or anything. I still maintain that Sandslash should be in a lower rank though
     
  17. Spoovo The Pirate

    Spoovo The Pirate Meep! Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    That's what the rank descriptions are for. More subtle ways of saying 'use this, motherfucker', and 'don't use this, motherfucker'.

    In a vacuum's all well and good, but being outclassed in one role doesn't stop a pokemon from being outclassed completely. Like, Gurdurr may give Hariyama a slight edge as a Guts abuser due to its Drain and Mach Punch, however Hariyama has more immediate power than Gurdurr with a better Attack stat, Close Combat, and far greater special bulk. Not to mention that Hariyama can run sets other than Guts sets.

    Things like Delibird and Ariados may seem really weird on that list, but they still have some kinda niche in the tier that makes them useful. For example, Delibird makes a hilarious Suicide Spiker, and Ariados can eventually spinblock without being a Ghost-type due to its rare access to both entry hazards, Protect, and Disable. Sticky Web to slow the target down (and hopefully outrun), then Protect against the obvious Rapid Spin, and Disable afterwards. Toxic Spikes too, but ehh, let's not get too ambitious.

    Make sense? Even the shit in the low tiers has some reason to be used.
     
  18. OUAzumarill

    OUAzumarill Active Member

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    Now, I know that Tales has gotten a lot weaker since the death of Drought, but I'd still say it belongs around low B or C rank. Fire is still an amazing defensive typing, and it has some pretty sweet support moves moves like Hypnosis, WoW, Confuse Ray, Roar, and Disable. It even has some form of recovery in Pain Split. It also has base 100 speed, making it faster than most fat mons. Finally, it has the movepool to still run offensive sets, preferably with NP or CM.
     
  19. Spoovo The Pirate

    Spoovo The Pirate Meep! Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    Also worth noting that Flash Fire gives it the boost it would've had when Drought was active, so Ninetales didn't really lose out on that much, imo.
     
  20. Weavile

    Weavile Phoenix

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    No it lost out THAT much. Non-Droughttales can't use Solarbeam making it notably weaker against Water-types off the bat. But Energy Ball is still good, so that mitigates that for the most part. The problem comes when Flash Fire is only activated under certain not too common conditions as opposed to Drought which is every time you come in, and it also removes your Water-type weakness. Flash Fire doesn't even begin to substitute for Drought.
     
  21. Spoovo The Pirate

    Spoovo The Pirate Meep! Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    Well yeah, that's no question. I'm just saying, in terms of power and utility in the tier, it's not a catastrophe for Ninetales. Chlorophyll sweepers and Typhlosion/Heliolisk on the other hand are crippled by comparison.

    Though I can imagine Energy Ball instead of Solar Beam cost it a few KOs...
     
  22. Weavile

    Weavile Phoenix

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    Typh and Heliolisk are still two of the best Pokémon in the tier. Shiftry is also still pretty great.
    Eggs is still ok, not great though.
    Victreebel sucks.
     
  23. OUAzumarill

    OUAzumarill Active Member

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    I'm not quite sure about this part. WoW users are all over the place in this tier, and powerful (oftentimes choiced) fire users like Typh, Magmortar, Pyroar, and Houndoom are also pretty damn common as well.
     
  24. Weavile

    Weavile Phoenix

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    Compared to the glorious 100% frequency of Drought you pretty much never get hit by fire moves.
     
  25. pokemonnerd

    pokemonnerd Only uso listens to pnerd. Devo too. Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    I don't see how this really affects anything related to how we are tiering things in viability currently, seeing as Conkeldurr does the exact same thing Gurdurr does now but better. Of course it would be much lower if here at all.

    Hariyama vs Throh is actually a legitimate cause for discussion and looking at both separately is important because one is better at doing one thing while both have moves the other doesn't. Throh is the better pokemon to use if you want a RestBU user since it can use Circle Throw and rack up hazard damage while attacking. It also has Knock Off and higher special bulk than Hariyama(only reason why Hariyama is a special pivot at all to anything bar Typh is Assault Vest), which eliminates the "ghost types wall it to no end" argument.

    252 SpA Typhlosion Eruption (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Hariyama: 214-253 (43.4 - 51.4%) -- 7.4% chance to 2HKO
    252 SpA Typhlosion Eruption (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Throh: 174-205 (39.1 - 46.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

    That little bit of bulk also makes a big difference when it comes to smaller hits chipping at you as well. Plus you get much more defense than Hariyama while boosting and you're not able to be Knock Off'd in the case of Gurdurr. And honestly, once Throh gets going if it's a dual attacking move set, something is at least going to die with it unless you didn't take care of Sigilyph, Fletchinder etc.

    B is the perfect place for it. If it was ranked alongside Hari and Gurdurr I'd have a problem, but it's not.
     
  26. Draciel

    Draciel ALLEZ! ALLEZ! ALLEZ!

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    Ninetales is still a threat, because with access to Nasty Plot and a good speed tier by itself it can do quite a lot of damage with Fire Blast/Energy Ball/Extrasensory at +2. But I'd concede that Houndoom/Typhlosion are better Flash Fire attackers, so Ninetales should be in B imo.

    Regarding the viability of other Drought abusers, Shiftry is still the best offensive defogger in the tier, and deserves A-. Victreebel and Sawsbuck do take a severe hit in their viability, although I still won't place them lower than they already are (C+).

    @pokemonnerd you missed the main selling point of Hariyama as a firespam check, and that's Thick Fat. Going by your calcs:
    252 SpA Typhlosion Eruption (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Thick Fat Hariyama: 106-126 (21.5 - 25.6%) -- 0.6% chance to 4HKO

    I wouldn't mind lowering Throh to C, considering it's outclassed by Gurdurr as a set-up attacker and Hariyama for it's utility; I think it needs too much support to be successful, and is a dead weight in most cases.
     
  27. pokemonnerd

    pokemonnerd Only uso listens to pnerd. Devo too. Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    @Draciel you completely missed the point that I pretty much said that Throh's claim to fame is its bulk up set. If you're looking for an all purpose pivot then Hariyama is obviously leagues better since it has thick fat and a much better suited move pool for hit and run tactics. If you're looking for a bulk up user that basically is Gurdurr that doesn't depend on Eviolite(Leftovers recovery is huge...) then Throh is your mon.

    The point of the calcs were to show the slightly better bulk when using a bulk up set as I said in the post.

    I really don't think it should drop from B. Maybe B- but C just completely undersells its usability even with Gurdurr being "better" in that role. Even though both of them play completely differently on teams.

    The main reason Throh should be B anyway is because it requires more team support to be useful while Gurdurr is your basic "I need a good fighting type" stand-alone mon of this gen's NU.
     
  28. Draciel

    Draciel ALLEZ! ALLEZ! ALLEZ!

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    The main reason why I think Throh should be lowered is because of it's lack of options. The standard BU set that's been mentioned runs like: BU/Rest/Storm Throw/Sleep Talk or Knock Off. Now it has to choose in between Sleep Talk or Knock off as the 4th move; while Sleep Talk might seem the most logical option, it then becomes hard-walled by the plethora of ghost types we have, also failing to hit the fairies and psychics for good enough damage. If you choose Knock Off for the last move, it does help out with the coverage part, but it then becomes a sitting duck for 2 turns after using Rest. Considering the fast-paced and offensive nature of the metagame, I don't think that's a viable option.

    If you compare with the other B ranked mons we have, Throh is way too passive. Although I won't mind agreeing to a B- position for it.
     
  29. Dr. Doom

    Dr. Doom Long time hater of stall

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    I agree with Draciel - between, Virizion, Pangoro, Gurdurr, Sawk, Hariyama & Poliwrath there's little to no reason to use Throh. The Bulk Up + RestTalk set is completely walled by every Ghost and Psychic type, as well as being total Taunt bait. C+ Tops IMO.
     
  30. Spoovo The Pirate

    Spoovo The Pirate Meep! Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    If you're worried about ResTalk vs Knock Off, why not RestoChesto?

    Sure, it has that potential for being Knocked Off, but almost everything runs that risk, and this means you can run a coverage move while setting up, and restore your HP when needed, albeit only once.
     
  31. East's Mascot

    East's Mascot The Tyrant

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    C Rank: C Rank Pokémon have some sort of niche in the metagame but are generally sub standard and require large amounts of team support. Their niche is not entirely infringed upon but they may face stiff competition from higher ranked Pokémon for their team spot.

    I think this describes Throh, it does have a niche in the resttalk set that works if your opponent lacks a Ghost/Psychic type; but it faces stiff competition from Gurdurr/Hariyama as a bulky Fighting type. Hariyama outclasses it damage wise and Gurdurr is just the better bulk up user thanks to drain punch and priority. I don't think ranking Pokemon whilst ignoring their competitors is a good way to rank them either. With the number of good Psychic types and Ghost types in the tier, Resttalk throh just isn't that good. RestoChesto works once, but then it loses out on the guts boost from rest so why would you not use Gurdurr in that situation. I think the C rank is right where Throh belongs as it fits the description to a T.
     
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  32. OUAzumarill

    OUAzumarill Active Member

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    Now for some NFE pokes that I've been using:

    Machoke: It has better special bulk and speed than Gurdurr and has a annoying niche in being a No Guard Dynamicpunch abuser. Combine that with Knock Off, a solid base 100 attack, and a bunch of great coverage moves (most notably a Stone Edge that won't miss), it is extremely difficult to switch into. It can run a bulk up set, but usually just a 4 attacks set is its best. I like it somewhere in B or maybe C+.

    Wynaut: Basically plays like Wobuffet, except not as fast or bulky. It can still get the job done if played right, trapping and killing offensive pokes. It's not fully reliable and can't stop any wallbreakers like its older sibling can, but it does enough to warrant a rating at least in the C range.

    Metang: This thing just doesn't die. It has some pretty solid bulk even without the Eviolite, and it's typing allows it to be a nice replacement for the currently LU Bronzong. Somewhere in the C range is solid for it.

    Murkrow: It's got relatively decent offensive presence on both sides of the spectrum and also has the movepool to be a great Prankster support mon. While I'd argue it's mostly outclassed at all of its roles individually, the fact that it can fuse them together as well as perform either role well enough to be included on some teams. C- seems like the right spot.

    Riolu: It's gimmick Copycat Roar set is just that: a gimmick. However, it's a gimmick that can win games if the proper team is built around it and it is used correctly. It's still pretty unreliable, so somewhere from C or D works.

    Hippopotas: With the Eviolite it is near as bulky as it's evolved form. It still has the same non-lefties recovery, the same phazing, the same SR support, and the same sand stream. The only thing it's really missing (other than lefties) is the ability to hit as hard with EQ, which really isn't that much of a loss. I'd almost argue for a B+ or A-

    Duosion: This thing, like it's older BL2 buddy, can wreck stall teams with its Magic Guard CM set. It is also a badass in TR teams and can utilize Regenerator to be a strong hit-and-run attacker. C+ or B-.

    Fraxure: Hits harder than most fully evolved Pokemon, and the Eviolite really boosts its bulk to levels resembling Druddigon. It makes a pretty sweet DD or SD sweeper. I'd almost put this in A-.

    Zweilous: This thing has the third strongest Outrage in the game, out-damaging Ubers like Ray and Zekrom. With a band slapped on, anything it hits will probably die. It is slow though, so B may be a good rank for it.
     
  33. Draciel

    Draciel ALLEZ! ALLEZ! ALLEZ!

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    So considering the new drops we have: Bronzong, Pinsir, Poliwrath, Stoutland, Tangrowth and Togetic.

    Bronzong - > A-. It's a great defensive mon which functions similar to Registeel, with no ground weakness but a dark type weakness in exchange. Also it's the best M-Glalie counter in the tier, so deserves A-

    Pinsir -> A-. I'm actually a bit skeptical how Pinsir will perform, it looks very threatening on paper with a huge attack and Mold Breaker/Moxie; but I haven't seen it enough in practice yet; still looks like a A- mon to me.

    Poliwrath ->B. Has it's own niche with RestTalk/Circle Throw, works well in conjunction with hazards. Solid defensive mon which can also run an offensive Rain Dance set. B or B+ would fit it.

    Stoutland -> For some reason it wasn't removed last time, so it's ranked already.

    Tangrowth -> B+. A overall solid mon with good defensive and offensive capabilities. Can run Specs/AV/Phys Def sets well; and Regenerator compliments it very well. I'd place it in B+ for now.

    Togetic -> B. Never really liked Togetic much, because it felt too passive. But that doesn't take away from the fact that it's an excellent Fighting-type check with decent overall bulk, also has access to defog making it a good support mon. So B seems ok for it .

    Some other changes I'd propose:
    Typhlosion to A+. Also Malamar could be potentially A+ because it sweeps through teams just like that.

    Also updated the list with the tier changes.
     
  34. East's Mascot

    East's Mascot The Tyrant

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    I'd almost argue that Typh should go to S without Milo and Jelli holding it back. It's capable of running Scarf/Specs/Charcoal (or Flame Plate) which are all amazing right now. Flame plate has the advantage of bluffing specs and the ability to switch up moves+use Will-o-Wisp, scarf is a speedy threat and specs is very very hard to wall right now.

    Tangrowth seems like an A- rank mon, great physical bulk means it'll be able to deal with threats like Gurdurr, Kangaskhan, Hariyama, and Shiftry with ease:
    252+ Atk Gurdurr Drain Punch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Tangrowth: 72-85 (17.8 - 21%) -- possible 6HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
    252+ Atk Silk Scarf Kangaskhan Double-Edge vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Tangrowth: 129-153 (32 - 37.9%) -- 0.3% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
    252 Atk Choice Band Sawk Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Tangrowth: 177-208 (43.9 - 51.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
    252+ Atk Choice Band Sawk Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Tangrowth: 195-229 (48.3 - 56.8%) -- 36.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
    252+ Atk Hariyama Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Tangrowth: 126-148 (31.2 - 36.7%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
    252+ Atk Life Orb Shiftry Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Tangrowth: 117-138 (29 - 34.2%) -- 99.3% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

    It's let down by it's poor SpDef and somewhat sparse movepool which doesn't allow it to attack most relevant grass types (Vileplume/Virizion), but it can also run AV and Specs sets to varying degrees of success. I think it's versatility is enough to place it into the A ranks.

    Malamar is also a hugely annoying threat right now, ready your random bug coverage moves e.e
     
  35. Machineae

    Machineae ex NU leader

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    I agree with your opinion on Tangrowth. Having success with a special AV set. Hard to take down especially when your opponents main wallbreaker is down. Pyroar and Magmortar are a bit troublesome but no poke should be able to handle everything anyways. A- seems appropriate.
     
  36. Draciel

    Draciel ALLEZ! ALLEZ! ALLEZ!

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    So me and my fellow leader @da raikage decided to overhaul the rankings a bit, with all the new tier shifts. Feel free to post if you disagree with any of the changes.

    Bronzong - > A
    Pinsir - > A-
    Poliwrath - > B+
    Tangrowth - A-
    Togetic - A-

    Typhlosion - > S (from A)
    Lanturn - > A- (from B+)
    Drapion - > A- (from B+)
    Houndoom -> A- (from B+)
    Gastrodon - > B+ (from B)
    Garbodor - > A- (from B+)
    Musharna - > A- (from B+)
    Scyther - > B+ (from B)
    Dugtrio - > B+ (from B)
    Sneasel - > A- (from B)
    Tauros - > B+ (from B)
    Pawniard -> C (from Unranked)
     
  37. Nicehat

    Nicehat PO client damage calc: preview.tinyurl.com/o8e7hss

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    Vivillon to A-tier:

    It's a hugely threatening Pokemon with almost 100% accuracy Hurricane and one of the best setup moves in the game aka Quiver Dance. Steelix, Abomasnow, and Fletchinder leaving the tier mean that there are fewer ways to beat it, and if Bronzong takes Steelix's place that will be all the better as LO STAB Bug Buzz hits for neutral damage, 2HKOing all but the most specially defensive Bronzong after a Quiver Dance.

    Furthermore, it has the ability to completely blank one of its counters with Sleep Powder; the drawback that Sleep Powder doesn't affect Grass types is virtually irrelevant as no Grass types will enjoy tanking a STAB Hurricane or Bug Buzz anyway. Also, a lot of its counters are also complete Dugtrio bait (Lanturn, Magcargo, Carbink, etc).

    4x SR weak is a large drawback but Sleep Powder can still get you an opening to set up even if you can't tank a hit, and Vivillon can trump most SR leads 1v1 anyway which makes it a powerful lead option against your opponent's bulky SR leads like Uxie, Bronzong, Rhydon, etc, thus preventing your opponent from putting SR up early.

    The main vulnerability Vivillon has is that it can be revenged by Mega Glalie and other powerful Ice Shard users, but even just as a decently fast offensive Pokemon with almost perfect accuracy sleep infliction and Hurricane it can accomplish a lot even without setting up, especially if Hurricane manages to confuse your opponent's more defensive switch-ins.
     
  38. Dr. Doom

    Dr. Doom Long time hater of stall

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    Haven't tested the others yet
     
  39. E.T.

    E.T. Random Slowpoke Super Moderator Server Administrator Articles Leader Super Moderator Server Administrator Articles Leader

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    I have become a disciple of Lord Pelipper, and I believe the lord should ascend from the C rank to at least the B- rank due to its good defensive typing and access to Roost, U-Turn, Defog, Scald, Air Slash and a plethora of other moves. Also, the departure of Milotic and Jellicent from the tier makes it more viable as an option for a bulky Water type with reliable recovery which gives it a niche over its winged kin Mantine.
     
  40. Spoovo The Pirate

    Spoovo The Pirate Meep! Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    Knock Off is another move that's definitely worth mentioning, as it has great utility in spite of coming from Pelipper's shit Attack stat, and it's one of those moves that really separates it from Mantine, because aside from Roost, Mantine gets all of those listed moves too.

    ...once I get some spare time, I should really test this new tier shift. D:
     
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