Oh, didn't know mega camel was going up too? That'll make things interesting; Typhlosion'll be the top Fire-type now for sure. Mega Audino's still a fairly solid choice, in spite of her awful ability, but I reckon Glalie would likely be the most used mega in April, due to the sheer power of Suicide Fridge. :3
Updated the list with tier changes. As for the drops we've had: Dugtrio A- : Great ability to trap and revenge kill certain mons, fantastic 120 base speed stat and a a powerful stab EQ . It's attack stat leaves a lot to be desired, but LO/Choice band alleviates that problem slightly. Glalie A : Extremely powerful, but fails to get past bulky waters like milotic or jellicent. Overall a solid A mon imo. Registeel A: Excellent defensive mon, don't need to say much more. Xatu B+ : It's ability gives it excellent utility, and considering lack of good spinners in NU atm it's extremely useful. Although prone to get Pursuit-trapped by Dark types like Spiritomb/Skuntank. Would like to hear more opinions regarding these! (Not gonna discuss Wobbufet because its obnoxious, and Drudd is getting suspected anyway)
What do you guys think about Virizion? With Noivern gone, Virizion is better than it was before, but is it enough for it to move to A+? It has multiple sets that it can run (Swords Dance with Life Orb/Lum, Calm Mind, I've even seen Choice Band) which can make it a little hard to predict too. It's also sitting in a nice speed tier with very few mons able to outspeed it without a scarf. Its special bulk is pretty nice too which can sometimes make revenge killing it harder. Poison types can give it trouble, but Vileplume is the only mon above B+ that resists both of its STAB moves.
Tiered Registeel where Bronzong was (A-) Added Pelipper to C (THANKS @Cirno <3) Moved Liepard up to C+ and Seviper to D Also added Scyther to B- Registeel needs to be discussed some I guess, as does Scyther. Glalie, Dugtrio and Xatu too.
Xatu I can see up high. Magic Bounce gives it amazing utility, but its lack of bulk - even when invested - holds it back. Maybe a B/B+? Scyther's Rocks weakness hinders it, but it has great Eviolite bulk, access to Defog, and Roost to keep it healthy. That said, Knock Off kinda harms it. Maybe somewhere in the Bs too. As for Glalie and Duggy, I can't say I've seen one of either of them lol. O.o
Fletchinder is somewhere in A-tier It dismantles offensive teams after a Swords Dance and it's not as hard as you might expect to set up because it gets to invest a lot of EVs into HP, 'resists' Knock Off, and most Pokemon aren't touching it after it sets up Then considering it gets two free moveslots to run whatever, whether it's Overheat to kind of dent Mega Steelix (35% to SDef variants, up to 50% on the Adamant 252 ATK ones), Will-0-Wisp to cripple opposing Pokemon, Roost against Sucker Punch or to heal off SR damage, or Tailwind to set up another sweep, its support options are pretty ridiculous. Furthermore it's one of the best revenge killers in the tier, being 'fast' enough to trump scarfers, smashpass, your opponent's +6/+6 DD Scrafty, or Chlorophyll users on sun teams to name a few examples. It makes it a lot easier to not autolose to opposing teams that you might not necessarily have prepared for.
Glalie - I'd place this in B+, it's pretty good and it certainly has power, but it's somewhat slow and struggles vs things like Milo and Thick Fat Hari. Dugtrio - B perhaps, it doesn't gain an awful lot of mileage out of its trappings imo, but it does have a niche. Xatu - B+ or A-, solid ability, nice CMer, etc etc etc. Fletch - I'd move this to A- easily, it's a huge huge threat. Virizion - I honestly think this should go S (Sirizion hype) but A+ would be ok I guess.
I like making odd teams it gives Weavile work to do Flareon: like B- or something, good special tank, flare blitz is strong especially after a flash fire boost (2HKOs Jelli/Milotic, can take a scald then proceed with the KO), fear of Guts means opponents are hesitant to status it. Torkoal is a threat though. Dunsparce: C-/D. I tried. I really tried. Oddly enough, only sweeps if the opponent has a Torkoal [citation needed]. Hypno: C/C+. Mush is better (though this has Wish). MEGANIUM: C+ at least. SD Meganium is a threat. Seriously.
I'd have a lot of difficulty justifying the usage of SD Meganium over Sawsbuck, to be honest. Sure, more bulk, but considerably slower and less powerful, with an average-at-best movepool. 0 SpA Flareon Lava Plume vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Sawsbuck: 218-260 (72.4 - 86.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock 0 SpA Flareon Lava Plume vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Meganium: 168-198 (55.8 - 65.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery And let's face it, the extra bulk doesn't make a huge difference. An uninvested STAB Lava Plume still 2HKOes both of them. Figured I'd use Flareon for the calc seeing as it was appropriate. (Also assuming you're using like 252 Atk / 252 Spd Jolly or something for the spread) Being slow and frail, with a Stealth Rock weakness to boot, I'd be hesitant to give it such a high ranking as B-. It may 2HKO Specially defensive Jellicent with Flash Fire boosted Flare Blitz, but it'll practically kill itself from the recoil alone (assuming CB set). 25% from Stealth Rock + 1/3 recoil of 404 HP (being generous and not taking SR/Lefties into account) = roughly 200 HP lost from just taking out one pokemon. It might just barely be able to switch into Stealth Rock again afterwards, assuming it takes absolutely no damage on both occasions it switches in. Much as I love Flareon, I dunno if I could justify a B- myself. Hypno I can see, due to Wish and sleep immunity giving it some usefulness. Also some good movepool options, like Foul Play and Seismic Toss so that it isn't cockblocked by Dark-types. Wouldn't put it any higher than a C myself, due to just how much effort you need to go to just to justify even using it.
One poke that I've actually been happy using is Delibird. Gen 6 egg moves have actually changed it from a piece of garbage that can (never) spin to a decent hazard lead. With Spikes, DBond, and some combination of Rapid Spin, Icy Wind, Toxic, Counter, Seismic Toss, and Fake Out, Delibird can usually set up a layer or two of spikes, spin opposing hazards away, and potentially get a KO as well. It is by no means a top tier threat, but I could see it somewhere in the low C or D range.
I wouldn't even go that far personally. It's far too slow or frail to be a good hazard setter. Accelgor and Froslass are better.
Froslass is A tier. Accelgor is B- tier. C- and D are lower than both of these. So Delibird goes there to show that Accelgor and Froslass are better. This is not a hard concept to understand.
"C Rank Pokémon have some sort of niche in the metagame but are generally sub standard and require large amounts of team support. Their niche is not entirely infringed upon but they may face stiff competition from higher ranked Pokémon for their team spot" Remind me, what niche does Delibird have over Froslass and Accelgor? If it has to be ranked at all, D is the absolute top it should be.
"Their niche is not entirely infringed upon but they may face stiff competition from higher ranked Pokémon for their team spot" "may face stiff competition from higher ranked Pokémon for their team spot" Also, the ability clear hazards and set spikes is a niche.
And is being absolutely terrible at both of those roles part of the niche too? Seriously, it's at best D rank. Setting hazards and clearing them can also be done by Sandslash and Armaldo.
Neither of those get Spikes though, which is at least something. I get what you're saying, and I agree that Delibird is a fairly desperate choice no matter how optimistic you are, but it is at least something vaguely unique to the burd. Fake Out, Counter, Spikes, Destiny Bond with Focus Sash... it could actually work, I have to be honest. Play it well, and you might just get two layers and a kill out of it.
I hate you. But your suggestions are sound. Flareon - I could easily justify C+ and I think I can see B- pretty well too. Really specially fat, really strong, just lacking in speed and physical def. Has a good movepool now and does some real damage. I feel like people underestimate it because they keep trina use the Toxic Orb garbage set. Dunsparce - Dunsparce has shit stats and a pretty mediocre Movepool (well it gets some great moves but its stats make them a lot less than great in many cases). But it does get Serene Grace and that gives it some degree of a niche. I'll trow it in D if someone wants to move it up by all means do. Hypno - Mush is definitely much better. But yeah Wish is a neat thing. So I'll give that a nice clean C, I probably think C- is better personally just because of how much better Mush is but. It's not a bad mon really. I'd have a lot of trouble justifying SD Sawsbuck over SD Virizion (except in Sun but then you also have Exeggutor, Victreebel and Shiftry to compete with in which instance I'd have trouble justifying Sawsbuck over them). SD Meganium is quite significantly fatter and isn't weak to fighting, can pull off a bulky booster just fine (no a bulky booster uses HP investment not 252 speed!!) which Sawsbuck can't really do. But you're right Sawsbuck is generally "better" as an SD grass but Virizion definitely eclipses them both and arguably Saws more than Meganium due to Aromatherapy and Meganium's other uses so if Sawsbuck can have a place Meganium definitely can. re: Delibird. This list's purpose isn't to document what is a threat but rather how good things are in relation to each other, which by its very nature doubles as a threat list of sorts. But threat list isn't its primary focus. So Pokémon like Delibird that have any notable feature at all in any way can earn spots in low tiers because it doesn't matter that Froslass is better in every practical way, it's simply documenting that Delibird exists and there is some degree of far fetched reason that it might be usable. You wouldn't list something like Machop because it's completely and utterly eclipsed by Machoke let alone Gurdurr, it has absolutely no distinctive feature from those Pokémon. So yeah Delibird is a D mon
Drop Steelix somewhere from B- to C now that its megastone is banned. Registeel can probably rise to A or A+ since it faces less competition from Steelix.
I think you're really sleeping on Steelix. It's no longer the amazing all-rounder that Mega-Steelix was, but it's still a great pokemon in the current metagame. It's massive 200 defense stat allows it to take on most physical attackers fairly well (although it can be hit by knock off pretty hard and loses leftovers unlike M-Lix). I Feel like it's a B+ mon as it still does a pretty good job at walling pokemon like Cincinno/Klinklang/Kangashkan. It's SpDef is really poor and it's attack is rather middling as well, but it is a really reliable rocker that does really well right now as it can smack Registeel w/ STAB EQs which is pretty nice seeing as the best Registeel can do is Seismic Toss which is a 5HKO factoring in Leftovers. Maybe I'm overselling it, but I feel like regular Steelix is still a good mon that should be considered on your teams, just don't try to replace Mega Steelix with it because they're definitely not the same pokemon. 252 Atk Choice Band Cinccino Bullet Seed (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Steelix: 90-110 (25.4 - 31%) -- approx. 1.2% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery 252 Atk Choice Band Cinccino Bullet Seed (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Steelix: 75-90 (21.1 - 25.4%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery +1 252+ Atk Klinklang Gear Grind (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Steelix: 60-72 (16.9 - 20.3%) -- possible 7HKO after Leftovers recovery +1 252+ Atk Klinklang Gear Grind (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Steelix: 48-58 (13.5 - 16.3%) -- possibly the worst move ever 252+ Atk Kangaskhan Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Steelix: 104-124 (29.3 - 35%) -- 100% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery 252+ Atk Kangaskhan Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Steelix: 84-100 (23.7 - 28.2%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery Registeel is a really good mon and can wall quite a few pokemon successfully, but it lacks offensive presence and can rather easily get setup on. I'd say A-. I'm feeling a little tired so I won't get too into it, but Registeel lacks reliable recovery and although it's Steel typing means it cannot get poisoned, it's very susceptible to Scald burns and has no way of healing it's status on it's own. Jellicent has Water Absorb and Milotic has Marvel Scale which means that burns don't affect them as much. On top of that, the premier special attackers right now are mainly fire types (Typh/Magmortar) or Electric types (Helioisk/Eelektross). Typh/Mag can click their fire stab of choice and Helioisk can Volt Switch/Focus Blast whilst Eel can Volt/Flamethrower. Registeel is definitely an insanely bulky pokemon and an incredibly reliable rocker, there is no doubting that. I just feel that Registeel is just too passive in the current metagame to warrant a higher rating than A-.
I think Samurott could do with bumping up. It can be both a special wallbreaker and physical sweeper, so you never really know what it's going to do. Now that Feraligatr's gone, the physical set faces considerably less competition. I'd say somewhere in B.
Samurott is a decent Pokémon but its speed tier is just really upsetting. I could maybe afford it B- but I really don't think any higher than C+ describes it accurately. In a meta riddled with Virizion, Heliolisk, Eelektross and Abomasnow it just doesn't find it too easy to perform well consistently. We should all consider the placement of Throh for a minute. Because I think it's higher than most people would put it. (Like I'd seriously consider putting it in B or B-) I think Sigilyph deserves A- at least. It near single-handedly beats stall without Spiritomb or an appropriate Drapion and it's definitely fast and strong enough with recoil-less Life Orb and no rocks damage to deal some serious hurt to offense I think Vivillon could move up to B+, it may have trouble with Registeel and Steelix (although a lot less of it now), but it can really do some seriously disgusting damage if it gets going, which Sleep Powder can help it do fairly easily. Offensive teams need to rely on fast scarfers (Typh) or some strong priority (Kanga/Fletch) to really deal with it. Klinklang I think could move up to B now, Registeel is unfortunate but the less Steelix the better for it since Dugtrio can at least heavily damage Registeel unlike MegaLix. Even without Dugtrio support it's a reasonably good sweeper worthy of what's in B at the moment. Would also like to add Meganium to C+ or C. Seriously I believe it's a contender to Sawsbuck as a Swords Dancer in this metagame and it can also do all the other fat Pokémon stuff like aroma, albeit to a slightly sub-par effect when Vileplume is in the tier. I would consider moving Gastrodon down to B and Musharna up to B+, Gastrodon does not like a meta with so much Virizion, because Virizion also encourages Vileplume usage and it just gets worse and worse for Gastro. Whereas Musharna loves the Pokémon that Virizion brings together and Virizion itself. It also has good stats and a great movepool. Thoughts?
I agree with moving Throh into the Bs somewhere. I've used a Bulk Up Rest-Chesto with Storm Throw (Crits for days) and Knock Off that could be pretty hard to stop if it got going. Guts is a very nice ability to have too. I also agree with Sigilyph moving into the As because a LO attacking set does work very well. CM + 3 Attacks makes it better suited for offensive teams, but I can see where some coverage could be sacrificed in order to decimate stall by having Roost. I would be okay with Vivillon moving up a little bit. Compound Eyes Sleep Powder and Hurricane can be deadly in combination with QD, and Giga Drain can be used to ruin Rock types' day and recover health while sweeping. I would like to note that AV Vital Spirit Magmortar also shits all over this though. The other suggestions make sense, but I haven't used any of those recently, so I'll refrain from commenting about them.
Just my personal opinion, but with Steelix gone and Wobbuffet probably joining it, I'd move Fletchling somewhere into the A's. Of course it's going to have some problems with Eel, Helio, and the like, but its ability to completely demolish the opposition with a priority Acrobatics is utterly insane. And as for unforementioned stops (Registeel, Archeops, Sashed Dugtrio), the thing is Fletch usually comes around late-game, not early-game like these three do. The only one who you'd ever see lategame (unless Banded Duggy, which gets demolished by Fletch anyway) is Registeel, which you can usually stall out with Will-O-Wisp + Roost.
Meganium giving both Sawsbuck and Vileplume competition makes sense to me, because it's far bulkier than the former, and considerably faster than the latter, with better overall bulk and no Psychic weakness, plus an actual Ground resistance, which is useful in this tier atm. Not certain on offensive sets myself, but hey, if you've tried them and they work? *shrugs* Throh I can see working as a more specially bulky Gurdurr, that isn't crippled if its Leftovers/Chesto Berry gets removed. Much more flexible, with a more fun STAB to spam in Storm/Circle Throw. Both are good and viable. Oh also, Assault Vest Throh is fun as fuck.
Agreeing Throh should be in B; it has a niche with Bulk up+Storm Throw and is quite hard to kill if it manages 1-2 BUs. Also has Knock off to hit ghosts. Sigilyph in A- and Vivillon in B+: I also agree with these. Regarding Meganium, I think it would be good in C; even though it has higher bulk than Sawsbuck, it's still outclassed by it. Especially Sawsbuck has Chlorophyll and is a way deadlier threat with sun-support. Gastrodon would be a decent mon atm if not for Virizion/Vileplume everywhere; the current meta is pretty tough for it. So B might be a good place for it. Fletchinder is pretty amazing atm, and the best late-game cleaner; with access to Swords Dance and priority Acrobatics it can set up a sweep quite easily, and has Will-o-Wisp to cripple incoming rock/steel switchins like Rhydon/Registeel. So definitely warrants A/A-
Ok. Reshuffled a few things. Musharna -> B+ (From B) Fletchinder -> A- (From B+) Sigilyph -> A- (From B+) Banette -> B+ (From A-) Gorebyss -> B+ (From B-) Vivillon -> B+ (From B) Gastrodon -> B (From B+) Throh -> B (From Unranked) Klinklang -> B (From B-) Meganium -> C (From Unranked) Also properly ordered it
I think Tauros deserves better than C personally. Its STAB Rock Climb 2HKOes anything that doesn't resist it/isn't a wall and it hits an excellent Speed tier allowing it to beat the likes of Virizion and Mismagius. Although its Attack stat is average at best, Sheer Force makes up for it. "B Rank: B rank Pokémon are effective in their roles, they are often limited to one or two overlapping roles due to their limitations in stats, typing or movepool. They often require a reasonable amount of team support to be successful." I think that describes Tauros very well. It struggles with dedicated physical walls and bulky Ghosts, but is deadly late game and is a solid revenge killer too.
Wynaut for C or C- rank please It's obviously not Wobbuffet but it can still trade 1-for-1 with scarf mons and can easily switch into Mega Audino or other slower walls and render them setup fodder with speed investment (which it should have, otherwise it's way too slow) Destiny Bond + Encore can combine to either get a kill or force an opponent to give you a free turn if they can't OHKO you and Encoring them isn't safe (since you get 2HKOd by a lot more than Wobb does) I've been running it a lot recently and although it's definitely much worse and much harder to use than Wobb it can still do mostly the same things as long as you play it really carefully
I know I'm a little late on Throh discussion, but I don't see why you would ever want to use it over Hariyama or Gurdurr. It technically has niches over both Gurdurr with its higher special bulk and Hariyama with its better STAB move for a setup sweeper, but missing out on immediate power and priority is a pretty tremendous downside. They all have Guts as well as other options for abilities (Iron Fist on Gurdurr because nobody wants to status this thing in fear of Guts and Thick Fat on Gurdurr because tons of good Ice-types in this tier), which Throh effectively lacks because Mold Breaker sucks on it. Like I get why it's ranked at all; I just don't get why it's ranked so highly.
Going to advocate for Helioisk to A+ (or even S really, one the biggest threats in the tier right now honestly) as I feel it's amazing. Heliolisk (F) @ Life Orb Trait: Dry Skin EVs: 252 SAtk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk) - Volt Switch - Hyper Voice - Surf/Thunderbolt/Focus Blast/Dark Pulse - Grass Knot/Thunderbolt/Focus Blast/Dark Pulse Helioisk has pretty much 0 safe switch ins bar Torterra due to its wide movepool and great coverage options. Dry skin means it can safely switch into water types and it's speed tier is amazing right now as it can outspeed even Virizion and get solid damage off with Hyper Voice then Volt switch out meaning that it's in range of Hyper Voice next time. It's coverage options, mainly Grass Knot and Surf, make it so that no ground type besides the aforementioned Torterra can block Helioisk's Volt Switch. Spike Stack is also fairly good and can be combined with Helioisk to just dismantle the tier. The most effective way to deal with Helioisk right now is to get rocks up and have pokemon that can soak up Volt Switch and wait for Rocks+LO damage to whittle it down. There are pokemon that can safely switch in, but they have no way of keeping it there and are all outsped meaning that it can just Volt Switch out. Dark Pulse seems really random as a coverage option, but can be used to hit pokemon like Gourgeist/Trevenant whom Helioisk can otherwise not touch.
Hariyama and Throh just do different things. I would hardly call them directly comparable, despite their similarities. Gurdurr is a more valid comparison and Gurdurr is definitely the best non-Virizion/Sawk fighting-type right now. However even when comparing to Gurdurr, Throh does different things. The RestTalk Bulk Up set is unique to Throh and it does that particular thing best. Would I use it over Gurdurr? Probably not in most cases. But that doesn't change that if I were to use it, it would perform like a B rank Pokémon Also re Heliolisk. You forgot the lord HP Flying Heliolisk, fuck Virizion. I would agree with A+.
Just figured I'd point this out on the Heliolisk thing; 252 SpA Choice Specs Heliolisk Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Torterra: 223-264 (56.5 - 67%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery Unless you're running AssVest or some weird Specially defensive set (which imo are both fairly poor sets), Torterra's getting annihilated.
Dunno if I agree that Throh is still B-rank material for the role it does provide, but I guess it distinguishes itself enough from Gurdurr and Hariyama to not be considerably lower. Thanks for the response. Agree with Heliolisk for S, also think Froslass is pretty easy S too. On top of its absurd offensive presence, Heliolisk carries a Ghost, Water, and paralysis immunity, which is huge for offensive teams that don't really have enough room to cover these things specifically. imo the best set is Life Orb Volt Switch / Hyper Voice / Grass Knot / Focus Blast, but Grass Knot only does about 60% to max HP Milotic, so Thunderbolt is kind of legit too. I usually prefer just Volt Switching on it and going into something else that can threaten it. In general I think coverage like Dark Pulse is just unnecessary because you can just Volt Switch out of stuff like Gourgeist and Trevenant anyways. Froslass makes Spikes offense not only incredibly good but also incredibly easy to run. Not a lot of teams I've run into have things to prevent you from getting up two layers of Spikes or one layer of Spikes and a kill with Destiny Bond, and most of them that do are really predictable and easy to play around (Cinccino, Crustle, Klinklang, etc). You can't even set up on Froslass because of Taunt, and even if you're faster, Froslass can run Icy Wind to slow you down. You can even be punished for playing around Destiny Bond if the Froslass user is running Taunt. It also prevents Rapid Spin/Defog because Ghost/Taunt, and you can run another Ghost (see: Mega Banette) as a secondary spinblocker. This Pokemon is probably too good for NU, but even if you think it's fine in the tier, it's still pretty easy S material.