[ORAS] ORAS OU Metagame Discussion Thread

Discussion in 'Past Gens Discussion' started by Finchinator, Nov 2, 2014.

  1. Cameltoed

    Cameltoed Excadrill gira

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    I totally agree on this

    About Mega Altaria: it's a really good mon, it can run more and more different sets but:
    1- it's so slow, even if it's DDancer u can still outspeed it at +1 with a lot of mons. Jolly Exca on sand outspeeds it at even +2...
    2- it has a lot of common weaknesses. Steel, Fairy and Ice are common offensive types in ORAS, and the first two are usually characteristic of bulky mons that can tank every altaria's moves (e.g. Mega Scizor - Ferrothorn - Clefable)
    3- it has a quite reduced movepool. Ok, Fairy+Ground+Fire means almost perfect coverage, but if you're running DDancer, u gotta miss fire move unless mixed dancer (which lacks EQ or Roost). If you're running special attacker, u gotta miss EQ unless mixed set (which lacks something else useful); anyway the based special attacker hasn't enough firepower to get through several walls and it's so easy to check (SDef Hippo, Clefable, SDef Jirachi, SDef Gliscor, even SDef Celebi etc)
    4- it can be easy revengekilled and stuff like Scizor (one of the best mega of the tier) always scares it.

    in shorts: absolutely good, totally not suspect-worthy. If power creep of this gen was lower, maybe it could have deserved a suspect but in a gen like ORAS it's a standard good mon.
     
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  2. Purpleseamonkey

    Purpleseamonkey PO Alt: y0

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    I find Thundurus vastly more threatening than manaphy because of the shear versatility of its sets by switching one move, thundi can have very different checks and counters and there is only one that deal with all sets (Venu)

    Thundurus runs:
    Tbolt
    Hp ice
    Focus blast/knock off
    Thunder wave/knock off/nasty plot

    By shifting one move, Thundurus can fill an entirely different role on any given team and would need to be counterplayed very differently. Running twave gives any team a blanket stop to most offensive mons, Running knock off makes Thundurus much harder to switch into and cripple checks like chansey and amoongus therefore blowing holes in the opposition's team, Nasty plot makes for an extremely dangerous late game sweeper with an incredible amount of speed and power capable of of beating chansey and other special walls. One wrong misplay will often end a game when facing Thundurus.
    In contrast Manaphy has only two sets (which one is revealed as soon as it attacks). It is always safe to assume TG 3 attacks because of how many free turns rain rest needs to actually threaten anything (which is why it's hardly used) and they do have some overlapping counters in ferro and kyuremb. TG 3 attacks has a couple of defensive counters and lots of offensive checks that are all very useful mons outside of beating manaphy. The necessity of setting up can easily be leveraged by opposing players and is a high risk/high reward option as opposed to Thundurus who is crazy dangerous as soon as it is on the field.
     
    Last edited: May 28, 2015
  3. Oh So Penspin

    Oh So Penspin Hail RNGesus, our Lord and Saviour!

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    I'm not so keen on a Manaphy suspect to be honest. Sure, it shines versus Stall and Balance builds, but it is quite bad vs more offensive teams. Its success is very matchup-dependent, unlike Geninja and Lando-i for example, which did well vs every team. Imo, only Pokemon that threaten every playstyle should be considered as suspect.
     
  4. Spoovo The Pirate

    Spoovo The Pirate Meep! Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    Though the point of suspecting a pokemon is to see if it imbalances a tier. Manaphy takes Stall and Balance teams apart quite efficiently, thus hindering their viability. As much as I hate stall, should it become inviable, you'd need to suspect the cause of that, would you not?
     
  5. Cameltoed

    Cameltoed Excadrill gira

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    Just as you said, like Lando-I and Greninja. Following the logic I believe it should be at least suspected (or we have to unban Lando and Gren but do we really want this?)
     
  6. Ortheore

    Ortheore One beautiful monster

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    I couldn't disagree more with thing requiring universal effectiveness, if a Pokemon is broken in specific matchups that's still a problem- this basically restricts a player's choice of playstyle, making the tier more homogenous and stale. If we just disregard issues faced by stall/balance, that naturally forces the meta to consist predominantly of offense. If everything were offense v offense, it would swiftly grow boring

    Saying that kind of thing is only setting us back

    EDIT:
    Ah k, that's fair enough. It's just your earlier post was much more general and represented a more problematic line of thinking imo
     
    Last edited: May 30, 2015
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  7. Purpleseamonkey

    Purpleseamonkey PO Alt: y0

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    The point of suspecting and bans is to isolate broken elements of the metagame, not to promote one playstyle or increase the viability of teams that need to adapt. If you think this meta is as simple as; slow, 2 base 100 plus, and four base 100 plus that's a very one dimensional way of looking at this tier, does not fully appreciate all the cores we have at our disposal, and is just plain bad team building. Don't bootstrap from other suspects! There are huge differences in power between the aforementioned banned mons and manaphy, but such discussion usually leads nowhere because this is not the same matagame so what constitutes as broken must be different as well
     
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  8. Oh So Penspin

    Oh So Penspin Hail RNGesus, our Lord and Saviour!

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    If you had read correctly, you'd have noticed that I used the word "unlike", which is fundamentally different from the word "like".

    Yes and no. If a Pokemon completely invalidates an entire playstyle, it is overcentralizing and should be suspected. However, stall is still pefectly viable despite Manaphy running around. Manaphy is in no way centralising or restricting teambuilding right now imo; it's something most offensive teams naturally have checks for and a threat to consider for most stall/balance teams.
     
  9. Cameltoed

    Cameltoed Excadrill gira

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    actually Landorus-I is not that good vs offensive teams, and Greninja sucks vs stalls... or better, they need support to do something (Landorus has Rock Polish ok but it loses coverage while greninja needs spikes to be effective vs stall)
     
  10. Xdevo

    Xdevo Phrasing Super Moderator Tour Director Super Moderator Tour Director

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    I'm not going to say this is how the OU leaders think, but this is how I've always thought of playstyle dependent Pokemon.

    If a Pokemon completely invalidates a playstyle, granting a win against eg Stall a huge majority of the time without much real playing required is bannable for just that even if it's close to useless against other playstyles.
    If a Pokemon is simply really good against a playstyle, granting a win often with some deal of actual playing required, isn't bannable for just that; it would have to be at least 'good' against other playstyles.

    The biggest problem with this is taking team match-up rather than playstyle into account. Like say, some Pokemon absolutely destroys stall without Chansey, but can't really touch Chansey. I personally wouldn't consider that the former situation because Chansey is good and common on Stall, but if some Pokemon destroyed stall teams without Quagsire, it probably would be, since Quag is neither good or common (compared to Chansey at least).
    It's a lot more difficult for offensive, since offensive teams are generally much more varied than stall, so the former line of logic kinda falls apart there.

    Finch edit: I generally agree with this. While Chansey isn't as common on stall currently, the example doesn't matter as much as the line of logic behind the post, which is what I am 100% in agreement with (fuck anyone who uses Chansey haha)
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 30, 2015
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  11. Purpleseamonkey

    Purpleseamonkey PO Alt: y0

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    I strongly disagree with this line of thinking because it promotes that certain teams and mons must be able to deal with all balanced portions of the meta and that is exactly the type of oversimplification I'm talking about. If stall is adapting to things that beat it by not running chansey that is very healthy because it is changing with the tier rather than all stall mons becoming unviable. There have been many meta's where full stall is not viable and honestly I think thats completely fine also. Offense uses a larger variety of ways to check threats other then switching and healing which makes it almost always more viable then stall. The viability of stall is determined by; 1:how centralized a tier is and 2:How easy are top threats to switch into. What we think of as stall should really be called anti-meta because its main goal is to find synergistic switchins to top threats. These anti meta type teams highlight broken things that have almost no switchins and need revenge killers (ie: landorus). That being said, just because something destroys standard stall does not make it broken because that is pretty much one or two copy and paste teams that have refused to adapt and change up the cores due their fragile and codependent nature. Cores are good because they check a large portion of the meta, but when they don't work we should look for new cores rather then concluding something needs to be banned because we cant check it in the ways we would like to.

    To sum up what I'm trying to say: throw the idea of playstyle out the window, this is a game of matchups and each layer or element you add to your team makes you cover more threats but also leaves you more vulnerable in other areas. When most people talk about playstyle they really mean pace; where faster playstyles try to maximize a few turns and slower ones try to minimize the impact of each turn. We can make any "playstyle" better by banning things that increase or slow pace respectively, but that has very little to do with balancing a tier and more to do with personal preference of pace. The idea of "playing around threats" was created because we should not always check something with a slow recovery switch in, but rather use all options at are disposal when teambuilding. Therefore a slow pace is not the proper gage for broken because it looks at such a small portion of the meta while ignoring how something is handled in most games. Ban broken pokemon; let people run whatever type of team works
     
  12. Oh So Penspin

    Oh So Penspin Hail RNGesus, our Lord and Saviour!

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    RP Lando-I absolutely raped offense, while non-RP variants were incredibly hard to switch in to for faster paced teams (much like MegaVoir is still extremely threatening to offense). Greninja did NOT suck vs stall, as Low Kick took down most of the mons that could switch into its special attacks.

    Coming back to @Xdevo's argument: "If a Pokemon is simply really good against a playstyle, granting a win often with some deal of actual playing required, isn't bannable for just that; it would have to be at least 'good' against other playstyles."

    I think this sums up a suspect really well. To me, Manaphy is very good vs stall and slower balance builds, but it's just 'meh' vs faster paced teams. Therefore, it should not be suspected.
     
  13. Lameflame

    Lameflame Active Member

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    I'm willing to withdraw my support for a Manaphy suspect, at least for the time being. I've made it pretty clear why I personally think it's suspect worthy (if not ban-worthy) in my earlier posts, but in fairness I think the metagame should have a chance to settle a bit first seeing as Landorus was only just recently banned. With Landorus gone, I have to admit that I've seen a big surge in KyuB usage which does an okay job of checking Manaphy (minus scald burns) and other offensive Manaphy checks e.g. Thundurus-i and Serperior. Not that I ever said it lacked offensive checks, but rather their increased presence as a result of the Landorus ban seems to be worth observing for at least a couple more weeks before charging into suspecting yet another offensive pokemon.

    Hopefully this doesn't come off as nitpicking but I think Landorus' effectiveness versus offense has been a bit overstated lately. Landorus-i is/was objectively worse against fast offensive teams, and even with a RP boost I think well-equipped HO squads could deal with it. I'm not trying to defend Landorus here or anything like that, I supported the ban, but in the context of Manaphy vs Landorus I don't think the difference in their capabilities vs offense are that pronounced that one "rapes" offense and one is "meh" -- I'd say Manaphy is "meh" and Landorus is "okay" at best. Small points, but just felt like sharing.

    Also imo Greninja was pretty average at best against stall but I don't feel like digging up that old grave at the moment.
     
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  14. crazystarf

    crazystarf New Member

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    Instead of banning potential suspects, I would like to propose that we check potential suspects that could be unbanned instead of banning more suspects. Deoxys-N and Reshiram come to mind as two primary suspects that I would like to see tested, as some of us weren't here during the test of Deoxys-N at Smogon (if it was properly tested at all). Here are a few reasons why both suspects should be given a chance to be tested.

    Deoxys-N:
    -numerous priority moves that can OHKO it (watch out for Bisharp and Talonflame)
    -may not have enough power to break through certain tanks and walls before being KOd.
    -poor offensive and defensive typing.
    -cannot switch in on ANYTHING.
    -no mega evolution

    Reshiram:
    -weak to all entry hazards (especially SR)
    -average speed tier
    -competition with mega altaria as a wallbreaker
    -no boosting moves (other than flame charge, which sucks)
    -may bring interesting changes to the standard metagame.
    -unban of Kyurem-B.

    Any thoughts?
     
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2015
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  15. Haze Victory

    Haze Victory Dem slumps..~

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    Speaking of a retest,we seem to have already reached a phase where we should start retesting past threats already.That,unless somebody to actually mention a potential threat that needs suspecting in the coming weeks.
    That being said,Aegi definitely needs a retest in this new phase of the Metagame with many more prominent threats that might be capable of standing up to it and hence tho,Aegi might not persist be as big a pressure on teambuilding now as it was before.But that's only theorymoning and it's hard to say how things would turn out in practicality.Voting for a potential retest here.
     
  16. Dr. Doom

    Dr. Doom Long time hater of stall

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    I seriously hope you're trolling, but just in case you're not.

    NO WAY!!

    Deoxys-N is incredibly fast and incredibly powerful. It has attack stats on par with (and in many cases surpassing) the megas, and unlike them it can hold boosting items. Those massive attacking stats with a vast movepool mean there is absolutely nothing that can switch into it. Yes it is extremely frail, but it's not too difficult to bring it in with slow U-turns/Volt Switches. It was legal in the beginning of XY, and it was insanely OP.

    Reshiram wouldn't be as OP as Deoxys-N, but it would still be way too much for OU. Its STABs combined with Turboblaze hit all of OU neutrally bar Azumarill, M-Altaria and M-Diancie. 2 130 bp moves coming off a 150 base Special Attack stat are going to blow everything that doesn't resist them (or isn't named Chansey) out of the water. And while it may have average Speed, it has very solid 100/100/120 defences and nice defensive typing. This thing would decimate OU.
     
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  17. crazystarf

    crazystarf New Member

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    For Aegislash to have a chance to be unbanned we may need to bring something else back from ubers. You can probably name a few checks and counters for Aegislash already (Lando-T and heatran anyone?), but looking at the tier right now for OU chances are that Aegislash cannot come back.

    Probably because of that King's Shield shenanigans.....

    That's quite a different opinion from what I was expecting, especially since Reshiram has a better offensive typing than Deoxys-N. Reshiram does have 100/100/120 defenses but the pokemon that you listed that counters Reshiram are very common in the standard metagame. It would be better if Reshiram had better coverage moves to hit the pokemon listed (as well as better setup moves) but right now Reshiram seems lacking.
     
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2015
  18. Haze Victory

    Haze Victory Dem slumps..~

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    Unbanning one broken Mon to check another broken Mon is not the least bit of an answer.And please refrain from theorymoning to the fact that Aegislash cannot come back.Off the top of my head Landorus-T,Stallbreaker Talon,Heatran,Mega lopunny,Mega Sableye,Mega zard (Both X and Y) with roost,and in the hands of an experienced player Bisharp are mons that can not only switch into Aegislash but also beat it 1v1.Garchomp and most other ground and fire mons revenge kill it rather efficiently.I seem to have covered every playstyle there is with the checks mentioned,I must've left out a few checks tho as I've recalled these over the top of my head based on what I've commonly faced people using on the ladder.That leaves out the Kings shield shenanigans you mention and we for one don't yet know if it's gonna make Aegislash broken in this new and drastically changed meta.
    That said,I'd rather have it banned at the end of the retest if it comes out as broken,tho wouldn't unban another Ubers mon merely for the sake of checking it.
     
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2015
  19. crazystarf

    crazystarf New Member

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    If Finch decides to re-test Aegislash for unbanning it, I am all up for it. The counters that you listed seem to be valid, which can probably contribute to the suspect test.

    The problem is, does Aegislash centralize the metagame to the point everyone has to carry Landorus-T or Heatran (probably the best two counters for Aegislash) to kill it? If it does it's going to be tough to make a case for an unban. If Aegislash does not centralize it can have a good chance of coming back.

    That said, I was unavailable for the Aegislash test so if it decides to get tested, I will gladly vouch for it.
     
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  20. Dr. Doom

    Dr. Doom Long time hater of stall

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    To be fair Heatran and Landorus-T are 2 of the best Pokémon in OU right now so putting one on your team isn't a hardship. I'd be all for a few retests - ones that come to mind for me would be Deoxys-D (Skill Swap is NOT a thing), Aegislash and dare I say Genesect.
     
  21. Oh So Penspin

    Oh So Penspin Hail RNGesus, our Lord and Saviour!

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    I'd be in favour of retesting Deoxys-D, Aegislash and maybe Genesect (in that order), but I think Reshiram is way too strong for OU. As mentioned, its STAB combination is ridiculous and is only resisted by 3 mon in the tier. Combine that with an excellent typing, good defenses and a decent speed tier (for a wallbreaker) and you have a monster in OU.
     
  22. crazystarf

    crazystarf New Member

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    With the suspect discussion underway, testing Genesect might be a tough one, especially since it got Shift Gear. I am also concerned whether the changes made in ORAS may have harmed Genesect, or helped it.

    A scarf set or a physical/Special sweeper may end up as main sets if it gets retested.
     
  23. Ortheore

    Ortheore One beautiful monster

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    Lando-T is a really shitty check to Aegi- it can switch in exactly once, and against a pokemon with as much defensive utility as Aegi, that's really not good enough. Heatran suffers from lack of recovery and Sacred Sword weak, but I guess it walls SubToxic?

    Personally I oppose a Deo-D suspect, while I'm also leaning against an Aegi suspect.

    The amount of support Deo-D brings is ridiculous- obscene bulk and good speed mean it almost always gets at least two layers of hazards down, with the possibility of coming back in for more, creating an immense amount of pressure for literally any team. Coupled with a swiss army knife movepool that let it do anything from cripple threats to shut down opposing boosters/hazards to beat things that were supposed to stop it (mostly looking at Magic Coat here). I really don't think MDia and MSab are enough to balance it (even then Skill Swap is a thing, even if it's overshadowed by other options)

    Finding switchins to Aegi's most basic KS+3 attacks set was a nightmare- its Shadow balls seriously hurt, almost all resists got demolished by Sacred Sword. With its great bulk and excellent typing, even against offensive teams it would find plenty of opportunities to come in and cause trouble. That set was just so splashable that I feel like it overshadowed its offensive and SubToxic sets, with the latter being notable for destroying practically anything that might hope to wall it. Still, idk how it would fare in this meta since I don't even have a clear idea of how things have changed.
     
  24. Cameltoed

    Cameltoed Excadrill gira

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    Why would we unban stuff when there are already too much threats in this stupid matchup reliable metagame

    Aegislash won't solve nothing (and if you think so you surely never did aegi unban suspect on smog)
     
  25. Haze Victory

    Haze Victory Dem slumps..~

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    Well,I don't see many suspects being named out either,other than my occasional rant about MEye and MDiancie already having been named non-ban banworthy by the community,above;Which I agree with.I doubt there are prominent threats still out there that haven't been looked into earlier and continue to pose to be extremely threatening now,bar a few mons maybe like Zard y,Mega garde etc with not many obvious switchins,but these have already been pointed out from time to time and am guessing been looked into as well as they haven't got a suspect discussion yet despite having been around for a very long time.
    You seem to have gotten the entire concept of retesting aegi wrong mate.Most people want it retested coz they believe it may not stand to be nearly as broken in this meta as it was before.I for one believe the same tho it's impossible assuming anything outcome without a retest.
    However if there are threats still present in this meta that people feel is broken,and actually deserves a suspect testing.I'd by all means support it.Tho I don't see anything like it happening of recent.
     
  26. crazystarf

    crazystarf New Member

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    I think the amount of broken threats probably mellowed out after than Landorus ban. When certain things get banned there are other pokemon that will stand out and dominate the metagame; if we decide to bad Diancie or Landorus-T, something else will take top spot.

    Actually Landorus-T is at risk for getting suspected since it has a habit of hitting top 5 in usage; heck, I see the thing all over the place in PO.
     
  27. Funbot28

    Funbot28 Active Member

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    The thing is even though something is used very often, it doesn't mean its broken in some cases. If we look at Lando-I, it wasen't really used that much, but was still broken and thus banned. I don't think Lando-T is nearly that broken as Lando-I was
     
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  28. crazystarf

    crazystarf New Member

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    If Lando-I was deemed to be that broken, shouldn't people have used it more since it's that good? This is similar to the Skymin controversy back in DP where Skymin was being suspected for ubers, but the vote turned out to be extremely close with the other side stating that Skymin never topped the usage charts during its suspect test.

    Anyways my point is that it would be refreshing change to see something get unbanned instead of getting banned for a change. Giratina-o unban was actually cool except it turned out to be April fools.
     
  29. Purpleseamonkey

    Purpleseamonkey PO Alt: y0

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    I get you guys are bored but 99% of above posts are broken checking broken or just crazy ideas like "lets shake up the metagame with reshiram guyz!". Aegi is silly overpowered and the only reason why its banning was even a little bit close was people's reluctance to ban the premiere mon of gen 6 (see: genesect in gen 5). After trying to read some of what you guys are suggesting, I can confidently say these post are using very little metagame knowledge because it's never "about that time" to start just trying things to see how broken as shit they are; thats not how tiering works. If you could actually use enough theorymon to suggest that DeoD, Reshi, Aegi, ect. could be balanced in the metagame by all means do so, but anyone who plays po (and makes their own teams :^l) understands the blatant reasons why these mons would be very overpowered.

    About usage=/=broken:
    Usage has a very interesting dynamic because we try to build the best teams possible but the meta is never truly balanced; so when something is a counterplay to top threats its usage will skyrocket more than said threats, especially if it can switch in on itself (Heatran, Lando, Scizor, Rotom). This is a very interesting effect that things that can check themselves see a huge increase in usage because top players are trying to always put themselves in an advantageous position. Things like thundurus-i can only be used so much because not every team has a use for its offensive capabilities (debatable) and running one still leaves you vulnerable to opposing thundurus. Where as with lando-t, you a great check to many physical attackers; most importantly landorusT. This ability to self check greatly increases the viability of top threats because the more they are used the more people seek the best answers to them: themselves
     
  30. pokemonnerd

    pokemonnerd Only uso listens to pnerd. Devo too. Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    Usage means absolutely nothing in terms of a pokemon actually being too much for the tier. It's an indication that it is easy to fit onto any team you can find on the ladder and that's about it.

    I would go further but this discussion has happened more times than I would care to admit.
     
  31. Purpleseamonkey

    Purpleseamonkey PO Alt: y0

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    I would not say "absolutely nothing". I would more describe it as a loose correlation; where we want to use the most powerful mons but we also are heavily influenced by the climate of the tier. This causes the most used mons to be antimeta, but its not as if usage is a random irrelevant stat when determining the balance of mons. As always context is most important
     
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  32. pokemonnerd

    pokemonnerd Only uso listens to pnerd. Devo too. Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    Which is why mentioning usage is useless and adds nothing to the discussion. "Context" is what makes it easy to understand - not necessarily agree with - but understand why a pokemon like Landorus-I was banned. It's also what makes Aegislash's ban justifiable: not its usage, but the impact it actually had on the tier when used in the most optimal ways.
     
  33. Lameflame

    Lameflame Active Member

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    Aegislash:
    As far as the Aegislash thing goes, the retest that occurred on Smogon's ladder not too long ago provided a lot of great insight for anyone who actually played the suspect ladder instead of theorymonning based on XY and etc. The argument about 50/50s was all-but-dismissed at the end of the discussion, not because it's not relevant but because the term "50/50" is often thrown around to describe situations that aren't truly "50/50", but are really one player failing to recognize certain essential facts about a battle versus the opponent. Aegislash is certainly not a "broken" pokemon in its own right, and no, it does not have 150 offenses and defenses all at the same time -- it relies on King's Shield to check everything it is supposed to and there are plenty of pokemon that can OHKO it even in shield form after minimal or even zero prior damage (see: LO Mamoswine, Adamant Bisharp, any offensive Heatran, Zard Y, etc.). I also seriously resent the crap argument that it "could always be running ... ABCXYZ coverage move" all on the same set. Aren't we over that horrendous logic? The only thing I've ever heard that's worse is the "well, Mega Metagross doesn't have to run Meteor Mash or Zen Headbutt!!!", at which point I throw my hands in the air and give up.

    That being said, the reason Aegislash is so difficult to re-integrate back into OU is because it fundamentally changes the viability of over half of the tier. This drop (or rise) in viability is due to either a pokemon's inability to beat Aegislash by itself (Mega Medicham, Mega Gardevoir), its increased offensive potential when paired with Aegislash (our friend Landorus-i), or are simply outclassed in almost all relevant ways by Aegislash itself (see: Jirachi). To be fair, I think a lot of the points made about Starmie, Jirachi, Celebi, Toxicroak, Hawlucha, Garde, Gengar etc. as being "literally unviable/unusable" are horrible and are only made by players who didn't play the ladder. Of course those things are all viable and can still be very good. What makes Aegislash unique though, to me, isn't just that it blanket-checks all these mons but that it can afford to be overloaded while doing so. I don't think it's the ultimate pokemon people claim but it is definitely the ultimate pivot, as it can reliably check so many different things it's theoretically supposed to check. This is different from something like Garchomp, who theoretically can check SD Talon, Bisharp, MLopunny etc. but in practice only has enough bulk to check 1-2. Furthermore, Aegislash's presence in XY OU didn't seem as disruptive or noticeable because it was always there. Sounds simple, but you can't really know if something has warped the metagame around itself if the metagame you're playing literally is the Aegislash metagame. I don't see it coming back or being re-tested here but I wouldn't be against it, I guess.
    _____

    Also there is literally nothing broken about Landorus-T, if anything its usage has seen a noticeable decline now that people have figured out Garchomp, Hippowdon and (to an extent) Gliscor do just as well to check (the also declining) Birdspam and other physical attackers that once overloaded this thing. "Double Danceorus" is a pretty nice set atm but is easily beatable, and again, this is its best set in my opinion. Has nothing in common with Landorus-i except the name.

    I 100% agree with what you said about usage but can't agree with most of your comments about re-testing things.
    • Firstly, while I'm not personally saying I think OU is stale or boring, retesting things for the sake of making the metagame less stale and more interesting is hardly a new idea, or automatically a bad one. As an example, the ORAS Ubers community (seemingly on both PO and PS) is suffering from a perceived staleness of their metagame, and there have been several requests for test-bans and other changes to improve it. There's also a sub-forum tournament going on in NU that's allowing higher-tier, previously NU mons as a way to stimulate interest. I think those are great ideas! At the end of the day it's just a game, and if some players want to see what the metagame would look like with XYZ added or removed, I don't see why that makes someone a bad player or a poor teambuilder which it sounds like you're suggesting. (I agree that some of the above posts could have elaborated a bit more though, so I'm only speaking for myself and in general here).
    • Secondly, and more importantly, I think there needs to be at least a bit more of an open mind when talking about re-tests. It is very disturbing to me that this is a thread meant to discuss "potential suspects and retests", as stated by the TL himself, but when the latter are brought up for discussion the players are ridiculed for their lack of skill and poor understanding of the tier. Again, I'm just speaking generally here and not defending anyone in particular, but this seems to be a very unfair and unhealthy mindset for discussion about the OU metagame. I respect others' opinions and don't think this is entirely false, but the whole "OU has a conglomeration of threats and we can't check them all!" thing is starting to become quite overblown. If there ever exists a team which can reliably defensively check every offensive pokemon, don't count on seeing me around until things change.
    • Thirdly, there are some current ubers that I think would be worthy of retesting; not because I'm bored, want new toys to play with, can't build teams or however you like to characterize it. Rather, I truly believe they would be balanced in this tier. A personal example of mine that I would absolutely love to defend would be Genesect. I'm not ashamed to argue that I think the ORAS OU metagame would not be very kind to Genesect, and would easily be the most challenging OU climate for it to have ever existed in. You have even stated yourself in previous posts that you're not fully convinced Genesect is broken in this tier and that it would be one of a small handful (if not the only current uber) you'd support retesting. You're also in the company of several tournament players who have either privately or publicly (see: Lyconik) stated they'd love to see it retested for many of the same reasons I share. I know there may be some serious salt about it given how wonderfully the last suspect test went, but for the sake of healthy productive discussion I think it should be allowed to progress.
    Hopefully we can agree on at least some parts of that.
     
  34. Purpleseamonkey

    Purpleseamonkey PO Alt: y0

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    It's not that anyone is against any retest, rather its just most of them are quite brain dead. Gene would be even better in the current meta than x/y for lots of reasons. Scizor is no1 in usage right now and gene outclasses it in just about every aspect. Mixed? check. better priority? check. Better ability? check. Better boosting? check (Rock polish>sdZor).
    Genesect would be far better than anything in the current meta and would have such little opportunity cost it could be run on all teams as the ultimate scout. Its unpredictability combined with the sheer power of download boosted attacks makes counterplay extremely difficult. Even further so in ORAS OU; fairy types have settled quite nicely into the tier and everyone having a genesect on their team would completely eliminate the typing balance. While scizor does not have much offensive presence (which is why bulky sets are quite good), gene would switch in on the stabs of all of these mons and threaten to sweep/gain momentum making them practically unviable. This is all without going into the specifics of the cb espeed sets and how it's sort of like a d/p scizor on steroids.
    What the point is: why is gene not even better then before with greeninja, mawile, lando, aegi, bp, ect. gone? If anything it is relatively more powerful because the tier is so less prepared to check it with these op blanket checks gone

    Also while smog's tiers are similar I really dislike using them as any sort of reference point because even subtle differences have huge consequences (Not in aegi's case although)

    Ubers is a mess of a tier tbh and should never be used as a good example in tiering. Maybe when they decide if they want to balance things or let it actually be ubers because eventually you're gonna ban the whole tier if you go down that road, but select banning MRay and leaving other stuff (PDon, Xern) makes very little sense from a constancy standpoint
     
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2015
  35. Edna

    Edna Chasing the Dragon Forum Moderator Forum Moderator

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    Tbh Genesect suffers from speed tier ( 99 is less than average nowadays) and will have to rely on Choice Scarf most of the time ( Shift Gear is ok but it's so frail it's way too risky).

    I won't be against retesting Genesect by reseting ladder and make vote to see what people want.
    To be fair, with threats like Zards, Altaria, Keldeo and I pass a lot, I feel like Genesect would have hard time at sweeping 'easily' as it will need lot of support in order to work properly.

    Also, some day in the future, Volcanion will take it with ease if it'as AV. Yeah I think it deserves to be tested again
     
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  36. crazystarf

    crazystarf New Member

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    This argument would have worked if there was permanent sun, but there is no permanent sun anymore. Not to mention stealth rock and life orb damage racking up means that Reshiram only has a limited amount of chances of attacking (although Roost does help a bit)

    Reshiram seems to be a pokemon that seems broken on paper, but may not be that great in practice; 90 base speed is below average and bad defensive typing holds it back (neutral to fairy is cool tho).

    Edit: With regards to Genesect and Aegislash, there were a couple posts on Smogon about unbanning stuff and people were up in arms over it about how unbanning things might unbalance the current metagame (for example, unbanning Genesect may affect OU in ways that people wouldn't expect).

    Aegislash was retested on Smogon a few months ago and it didn't turn out so well. Retesting it and getting it unbanned is be a tough case (although Smogon may have been biased during the test).
     
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2015
  37. Ortheore

    Ortheore One beautiful monster

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    Dude seriously, Resh in OU would be a total joke. Its typing may not be great, but it isn't that bad either- its only weaknesses are Dragon, Ground and Rock, which are significant no doubt, but there's still a sizable portion of the metagame that doesn't threaten it. Not to mention it's got its fair share of useful resistances as well- Fire, Electric, Steel and Grass are all useful to varying extents, and its bulk is ridiculous for an offensive mon. Hell it could even run defensive sets and make it work. Combined with offensive power+coverage that lets it do whatever the fuck it wants it would be pretty ridiculous

    Seriously, stuff like Choice sets, SunnyBeam, Toxic+roost, Subroost, prob a few others would all be incredibly potent. Tailwind is a thing, so it can sweep as well as wallbreak

    Like it's cool talking about retests and suspects, but this one really isn't going to happen.

    Personally I think we're fine not retesting anything atm.

    With Genesect, it literally has coverage for everything except a handful of Fire types (Heatran, Zard-X etc). It's another pokemon that has a movepool that allows it to demolish whatever it chooses.
    There's a whole host of sets Genesect can run- Scarf, Band, Shift Gear, LO/EBelt 4attacks, etc. It's not merely a sweeper, it can fit a host of different roles- scout, revenge-killer, wallbreaker, sweeper. Often these can be done by the same set. It's a little like Lando-I in that it's a massive threat without the need for setup, and outside a handful of counters (Heatran, I guess Zard-X as well) it gets to pick and choose what pokemon wall it.

    Zard-X works against Gene, Zard-Y risks Tbolt but I guess is otherwise good, Altaria is checked by Gene lol (IB, Iron Head etc.), while Keldeo loses to Energy Ball or Tbolt. As for Volcanion, it's not here yet and it's not as though Genesect's going anywhere, so I don't think that's relevant.
     
  38. Edna

    Edna Chasing the Dragon Forum Moderator Forum Moderator

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    Wasn't mentionning these pokemons as Genesect counters/checks lol, I was trying to say their presence will give genesect hard time at set up and that's why I think the best set it can use is Choice Scarf ( but that's just theory we haven't tried anything in ORAS with Genesect)
     
  39. Sakuya Izayoi

    Sakuya Izayoi love to hate

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    yea i'll actually like to see genesect back in the tier, i think what ou needs is a pivot that isn't overcentralising by a huge margin (basically not aegislash). i think looking at the current state of the meta there are enough ways to beat genesect but not so much that genesect is bad, rather it promotes smart play and counterplay, and make the game more reliant on a skill-based matchup which is what we want in a balanced metagame compared to a still kinda match-up reliant metagame. extra priority is always nice to have, especially to make set-up sweepers harder to sweep completely a team and also beat the significant usage of fairies currently.

    i'll also like to see a bit of discussion on mega metagross. i've been playing a lot on ps (the different between our ou and theirs is that they have mega metagross in the tier) and i find that its actually managable to play with it currently. both metagame are shifting towards a bulkier state, with bulky grounds becoming more and more dominant and this prevents mega metagross from being broken. yea it's unpredictable but many teams have enough checks that beat all sets and all coverage moves and even offense teams can play around mega metagross fairly easily with the increased usage and viability of darks, most notably weavile. i think looking back mega metagross' ban was unnecessary, but i enjoy both metagames equally so i'm happy even if mega metagross is not allowed to be reintroduced back in the tier. just my 2 c.

    would be cool to have either back in the tier, perhaps we might make a more enjoyable metagame :)
     
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  40. Spoovo The Pirate

    Spoovo The Pirate Meep! Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    Lol, Megagross only just got banned, so it won't be coming back any time soon.

    I don't have much to say on Genesect, due to being really out of touch with OU, but it'd be interesting to see it back in the tier, to say the least. After all, it's not like you have any tier changes every other month that keep OU fresh, huh? A test unban is about the closest you've got most of the time.