[ORAS] ORAS OU Metagame Discussion Thread

Discussion in 'Past Gens Discussion' started by Finchinator, Nov 2, 2014.

  1. Haze Victory

    Haze Victory Dem slumps..~

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    If my older post seemed confusing,I meant I'd have to think twice before running certain very viable Diancie checks;Ferro,Bronzong,Celebi of the kind as my team'd be hindered to a great extent when coming across a Mega eye carrying team.Which would hinder my support mons to a great extent just by switching into them.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 15, 2015
  2. Ortheore

    Ortheore One beautiful monster

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    I've recently tried using MSab and I've just found it underwhelming. It could just be that I'm not using it effectively or that my builds aren't that great, but I've found it to be really lacklustre. Its bulk really isn't that great when you consider it gets very few resistances, meaning it's overwhelmed easily, and it's super susceptible to burns from Scald/Lava Plume, which just ruin it. It has practically zero offensive presence, even with a boost or two under its belt, so a lot of the time the only way it's forcing plays is by threatening WoW, which many fairies and all fire types couldn't care less about.

    That said, this is mostly from my experience using it, in casual battles I've seldom faced them and I've also not seen too many stall teams, which is the matchup that would break MSab. After all, everything I described above hinges on applying offensive pressure.

    Edit @ Below: CM Wisp
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2015
  3. Spoovo The Pirate

    Spoovo The Pirate Meep! Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    What set have you been using? Would it be the Calm Mind set? Or just a Mega'd version of its standard physically defensive Foul Play... thing?
     
  4. Haze Victory

    Haze Victory Dem slumps..~

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    Mega Sableye has horrible firepower,and fails to ko a large no of mons even at +6.Cm set relies on it's ability of not being taunted or phased out in order to set up consistently to pull off a sweep..
    Off topic,I've battled you on the ladder Ortheore and the foul play set fits ur team much better.Give that a spin maybe and see how things work out for you.
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2015
  5. Spoovo The Pirate

    Spoovo The Pirate Meep! Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    Once Mega evolved it can't be by normal means though, due to Magic Bounce. They'd literally have to Dragon Tail it out (or Mold Breaker, but ehh...)
     
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  6. Ortheore

    Ortheore One beautiful monster

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    I just recently faced (today, last night, idk) a MSab while running pretty much full stall, so I might as well post while I actually remember. My general plan was to fish for a burn on it and then just stall it out. I found this to be very effective- despite my pitiful offensive presence, once I got the burn I was able to just keep bashing away at it (I was running Clef but that got KO'd over the course of the battle). It tried to set up, but due to the damage it was taking it was still spending many of its turns spamming Recover, to the point where I could've feasibly PP stalled it. That's not really beating it, but it's not losing to it either. In the end it was switched out at like 50% and failed to make an impact after that (helps that I was able to get hazards up and keep them up iirc).

    So I don't think MSab is close to being broken in terms of what it accomplishes even against a dream matchup. The real question is what it stops the opponent from accomplishing- if you're running stall/balanced and it's shutting down all of your hazard setters, you're in for a rough time. Still undecided here, would need more battles to decide, especially since most of the time either I'm not playing at my best or my opponent isn't playing well, one of the two, which makes it tough to get a clear picture of its support-neutralisation power.
     
  7. Oh So Penspin

    Oh So Penspin Hail RNGesus, our Lord and Saviour!

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    Alright, I've had this on my mind for quite a while and I want to hear your opinions. I do not think this suspect should be banned, but I want to hear what you think about this and what impact it would have on the metagame. @Mods: if this is not the approriate thread, please delete this post and tell me so I can make a new topic.

    I'd like to propose the following suspect: Stealth Rock. Reasons are as follows:
    • It is probably the most overcentralizing force in any metagame, as nearly every team carries it and most teams have something to prevent/remove it. Entire playstyles and games are based around hazard control.
    • It has an enormous impact on teambuilding. Not only does it "force" you to use hazard control if you have a Pokemon weak to SR, it also invalidates entire types and/or typing combinations.
    I'll edit the post if I can think of more stuff to say, pretty late atm.
     
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  8. Spoovo The Pirate

    Spoovo The Pirate Meep! Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    Well umm... there's no doubting that Stealth Rock is overcentralising. 99% of teams have either it or one of the Spikes, and I'd say a good 60% at least have something that deals with Stealth Rock, be it Magic Bounce, Defog, or the classic Rapid Spin.

    I reckon however, that Stealth Rock is keeping the game more balanced than it is unbalancing it. Without it, things like MegaZard Y, Volcarona, Talonflame, and hell, even things like Gyarados would be much tougher.

    And Ho-Oh up in Ubers would be nigh on unstoppable. Even with SR clipping his wings, he's still a top tier threat, which puts both it and Stealth Rocks' effect on the metagames into perspective.

    While it could definitely be interesting seeing a tier without Stealth Rock, you'd essentially have to recreate the entire tier, as Spinners and Defoggers would have much less of a niche without the most common of hazards, and everything weak to Stealth Rock would suddenly become a shit-ton more viable.
     
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  9. Ortheore

    Ortheore One beautiful monster

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    I would strongly oppose any kind of SR suspect. Stealth Rock facilitates as many strategies as it invalidates, and being a universal form of residual damage is quite a big deal for all kinds of playstyles. Not to mention that it's not as though it's impossible to use strategies that are otherwise "invalidated" by SR- stuff like Char-Y and Focus Sash are totally usable despite the existence of SR.

    Of course it's more than that, it's that I think it adds to the overall strategy of the tier- by providing another means of dealing damage, one that's separate from attacks and status, you create more interesting situations, where players must evaluate the risk and reward involved in not just the usual stuff like attacking using status, recovery and whatever else, but also the cost of maintaining hazard control. This added dimension of possible outcomes and the necessary risk-reward evaluation associated with it, I think is positive and contributes to the overall depth of pokemon. At this point hazards are such an ingrained part of the metagame that to remove SR would be to create an altogether new metagame with little resemblance to the current one.

    Furthermore I think banning moves in general is something we really shouldn't aim to do. As much as possible we should aim to restrict bans to only one category of things (in this case, pokemon). The more we ban things like abilities, items and moves, the more complex our tier list becomes, so banning things that aren't an actual pokemon is something that should be considered very carefully- in a situation such as this, where SR contributes to the meta as much as it restricts (imo) it should not be done at all.
     
  10. Haze Victory

    Haze Victory Dem slumps..~

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    Sr has been the most important hazard throughout generations now,and is one of THE biggest forces shaping the competitive environment.Apart from that I don't see SR being nearly as restrictive anymore after the buff on Defog and it's darn easy to slap a viable defogger on every team type to get rid of SR.If something,hazards had never been as easy to get rid of before as they are this gen.Due to that and everything else explained by @Spoovo The Pirate and @Ortheore above I'd oppose to a Sr suspect myself.
     
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  11. Finchinator

    Finchinator IT’S FINK DUMBASS

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    I am perfectly fine with people discussing stealth rock, but please discuss it properly if you would like to partake in this discussion.

    By this I mean, don't worry about the consequences of banning SR, as that is essentially theorymon, which is discouraged. For example, saying that Volcarona or Charizard would become too good if Stealth Rock were to leave is far from the truth as you don't know that they would become broken, you have never played a metagame without SR, and, therefore, you don't know know the truth. Sure, it is a safe bet to say they would improve as you're getting rid of a major hinderance that requires these pokemon to either be supported with Rapid Spin or Defog users or take 50% upon switching in, but there is no saying how much they would improve and what else would change in the metagame, so these type of arguments are lackluster and approaching tiering decisions with a "I'm scared of the potential consequences of changing something" sort of way as opposed to a "would this help or hurt the metagame right now" or a "is this broken or not in the current metagame" is not the right way to do it - if we had that philosophy, tiers would never change as we would be too scared of the consequences of banning anything, so stay away from that.

    With that being said, Stealth Rock is pretty much a staple on every team and has been prevelant in OU dating back to DPP, which attests to its consistent viability and impact on OU. However, I think that at this point ST is, more or less, a part of the game that is ingrained in the competitive culture. I find myself trying to make this weak "everyone uses it and had used it, so don't get rid of it as we are so accustom to it" argument when in reality, that's not a reason to keep it, it's just lazy justification. Upon putting more thought into it, the prospect of creating a test ladder for OU without SR allowed is quite interesting to see how it affects trends and the quality of the metagame, but I don't know if we have the playerbase or universal interest to pull this off, so until I am certain we have that, I'm back to contemplating how to argue this. With even more consideration, I've gotta say that Stealth Rock is super common, yes, but that doesn't make it overpowered, just worth using. Like any other thing worth suspecting or at least discussing, for it to be deemed broken it has to have a negative affect on the metagame and(/or) prove to have a lack of checks/counters. Stealth Rock's affect is hard to gauge as everyone uses it, so there's nothing to compare against it and it's obviouslt prevelant, but is it in a bad fashion? No way to say, so I'm onto the checks/counters of SR. There are a multitude of Rapid Spinners and Defoggers, although the former are a bit limited in the modern metagame, but there are still plenty of ways to remove it while there are also many resists and some immune (Magic Gaurd), so I'd say that SR has sufficient checks/counters to deem not banworthy or suspect worthy for now, but if we gain the sufficient interest and playerbase to make a test ladder for OU without SR, I may look into it, but no guarantees and it still depends on what others think on the matter, too.
     
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  12. Spoovo The Pirate

    Spoovo The Pirate Meep! Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    An SR-less ladder would be imbalanced as fuck for the first could of months, due to just how ingrained SR is into the metagame, but it'd certainly be interesting to try. I mean, Smogon's got a Mega-less ladder, so we'd certainly stick out by trying something like that.

    I'd never support an SR suspect, but it could be fun to try the game without SR every now and again. It's basically the same reason people sign up for tournaments, right? Testing their abilities under different circumstances (like that one going on in UU atm, which conveniently has Stealth Rock banned, iirc).
     
  13. Finchinator

    Finchinator IT’S FINK DUMBASS

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    The point would be to see the affect on the metagame after it stabilized if that sort of ladder were to be implented. Like a normal suspect, it takes a while for the ladder to become stable, but it would eventually work out!
     
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  14. Dr. Doom

    Dr. Doom Long time hater of stall

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    While I wouldn't personally ban Stealth Rock, I must admit I'd be keen to see what OU would be like without it.
     
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  15. pokemonnerd

    pokemonnerd Only uso listens to pnerd. Devo too. Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    Think of how dominating Charizard Y will become once we have the best hazard hands down in the game removed. Or how Volcarona can actually become marginally more useful again instead of sulking in low usage.

    Seriously speaking though I would be all over a SR-less ladder. It controls every single metagame far more than most people will ever give it credit for(LC notwithstanding since everything dies in ~2 turns max anyway), and the only excuses people bring up for it is that it's a move that isn't an auto win condition so we shouldn't ban it or it's been around for so long that it's not necessary to do anything to it. Which are both piss poor arguments and wouldn't hold water if we were talking about a pokemon or ability.

    It'll never be banned in the standard tiers proper(I'm certainly not expecting it to have a suspect) but having a metagame where we could really see and experiment with SR being removed is a worthwhile endeavor in my opinion. Since battling against friends gives such limited views on how it really affects the game.
     
    Last edited: May 20, 2015
  16. Spoovo The Pirate

    Spoovo The Pirate Meep! Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    The only thing I'd have against an SR-less tier - even a nonserious one - would be Focus Sash on just about everything that didn't touch the ground. That'd prove damn annoying.
     
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  17. Dr. Doom

    Dr. Doom Long time hater of stall

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    I don't think that would necessarily be the case. Think about the airborne Pokémon in OU.

    Landorus-T: Would rather use Leftovers on defensive set, Double Dance would rather use Lum Berry, Scarf would rather use...well, Scarf
    Lati@s: Would rather use Life Orb on offensive set or Light Clay for Dual Screens, or in the case of Latias its mega stone
    Rotom-W: Would rather use Leftovers
    Thundurus: Nasty Plot set could use Focus Sash, but all other sets would prefer the power of a Life Orb
    Talonflame: Yeah, Focus Sash with 2 recoil moves? Lol no
    Dragonite: Maybe on the DD set, but personally I'd use Lum Berry or Weakness Policy
    Zapdos: Prefers Leftovers
    Charizard: Unviable without its mega stones
    Altaria: See Charizard
    Gyarados: Prefers Leftovers or its mega stone
    Skarmory: Sturdy essentially gives it a free Focus Sash anyway
    Gliscor: Needs to run Toxic Orb
    Gengar: Maybe on offensive sets, although it will miss vital KOs without a Life Orb
     
  18. pokemonnerd

    pokemonnerd Only uso listens to pnerd. Devo too. Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    The only real flyer that would benefit from sash would be Dragonite since it can set up, but like Doom said you'd really want lum or weakness policy. Everything defensive misses out on Leftovers(that 6% is always underrated) and everything that attacks needs as much power as they can possibly get from any source. Or assault vest for the special tanks.
     
  19. Oh So Penspin

    Oh So Penspin Hail RNGesus, our Lord and Saviour!

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    Nice to see some discussion! I'd love to have a test ladder without SR, but I'm not sure how many people would play it.

    Spikes/Toxic Spikes will become more popular probably, so Sash is still not a guaranteed safety net.
     
  20. Spoovo The Pirate

    Spoovo The Pirate Meep! Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    Well I was exaggerating a bit, but I do see the Sash becoming a lot more common if an SR-less metagame is spawned. Particularly in lower tiers, where there's frail but powerful threats like Vivillon and friends in NU.
     
  21. Funbot28

    Funbot28 Active Member

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    Suspects of:

    [​IMG] or [​IMG]
    These things are so broke right now after Lando-I got banned. They became so over centralizing, and kinda limit teambuiling. Diancie kinda destoys Balance, and Sableye kinda destroys opposing Stall teams. They are quite deserving of bans or at least suspects. Don't mind either or (maybe both?).
     
  22. crazystarf

    crazystarf New Member

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    I am willing to vouch mega Diancie for suspect; there needs to be proof (doesn't have to be completely solid) that diancie is causing an imbalance in the metagame, but compared to things like mega salamence, it doesn't seem to be that potent.

    mega sableye will have to wait. I imagine bouncing back random status moves make life a living hell for stall teams.
     
  23. Haze Victory

    Haze Victory Dem slumps..~

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    True that MEye destroys opposing stall teams that haven't heavily prepared for it or aren't running a Sableye themselves.Tho status isn't the only reason for that.Imo the main struggle begins when the opponent tries to stallbreak a team containing Mega Sableye and utterly fail in their attempts of crippling opposing stall using knock off/taunt as Sableye takes them both like a boss :3.Furthermore a no hazard policy is the holy grail of awesomeness to all stall teams,stating a Mega eye stall team will always be able to pressurize an opposing stall team not containing MEye by safely getting in hazards,tho you can't say it's true the other way around.Sure if ur running stall tho you can always get past this by running SR on your Clefable to force MEye out,or by running rocks on a specially defensive Excadrill.But that's not something easily done most of the time as Clefable most always has multiple other roles to fill in,and Excadrill doesn't really fit most stall teams out there.As for Diancie tho,I certainly don't feel it's broken as from my post above and I'll quote it again.


    Of the two if something,I'd like to see MEye get a suspect testing for all reasons I've explained in this thread earlier.Tho it wouldn't pain me if it doesn't get one right away as the tier has shifted quite a bit from what it was in the beginning of ORAS and it certainly takes time for the new trends to kick in.
     
    Last edited: May 23, 2015
  24. OUAzumarill

    OUAzumarill Active Member

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    Spikes, TSpikes, Sand Stream, Snow Warning, priority, Prankster, Ditto, Scarfers, phazers, hazers, Unaware, and fat mons that can take a hit or two still exist. Assuming you are correct and such a thing does happen (which I highly doubt it will), those teams will get mauled by people building actually good teams and eventually the fad will all but die out entirely.

    Finch edit: this post is in response to a post that got deleted, just to clarify and avoid confusion on the quote/response
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 27, 2015
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  25. pokemonnerd

    pokemonnerd Only uso listens to pnerd. Devo too. Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    People also drastically underestimate how much power pokemon actually lose out on when they opt for a sash and not any stat/move boosting items. Dragonite doesn't even need one, Talonflame gets walled even harder by rotom/Tyranitar without something like Sharp Beak(or just using a band), Gliscor wants that guaranteed 12.5% heal every turn and is a weaker Landorus-T anyway and Lando gets stopped by Gliscor and Slowbro without a boosting item.

    Knock Off is still very highly splashable on anything that acquires the move and you have other methods of ensuring that sashed pokemon don't completely steamroll you. Of course it would happen, it's the first thing that comes to mind when you don't have to worry about SR. It really won't be that big of a deal.
     
  26. Funbot28

    Funbot28 Active Member

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    I think there are many more broken mons who deserve a ban, before we implement a Stealth Rock Ban

    Just my opinion
     
  27. Dr. Doom

    Dr. Doom Long time hater of stall

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    Such as? We already discussed Mega Sableye and Diancie. Mega Sableye lacks offensive presence and is easily checked by OU's Fairies. M-Diancie is hard to switch into, but bulky Steel types not weak to Ground like (Mega) Scizor and Ferrothorn are great checks. It rarely runs Hidden Power Fire as it's in a highly competitive Speed tier and the negative IV means it won't tie with Lati@s, Gengar, opposing M-Diancie and M-Gallade anymore.

    I would love to try a Stealth Rock-less OU, I think it would make be really interesting. It would make Charizard-X a top tier threat, although IMO it's already one of the best sweepers in OU.
     
  28. pokemonnerd

    pokemonnerd Only uso listens to pnerd. Devo too. Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    I kind of want to remind everyone that we're talking about making a separate ladder, not an actual stealth rock suspect or ban. If an actual suspect ever happens at all it'll be much later than this.

    And honestly we all know how much of a shitfest that discussion would be without playing in a SR-less metagame anyway. Separate ladders are cool though.
     
  29. .Rawr!

    .Rawr! c(°3°)כ

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    A SR-less tier sounds interesting, but i think it will become a sort of "Sky battle" tier, with all flying and levitators running rampant, maybe even magic guarders too - Alakazam, (mega)altaria, Char-x, Dnite, Gengar, (Mega)gyarados, Gliscor, Lati@s, Lando, Lando-T, Megapinsir, Rotoms, Skarmory, Hydreigon, Talonflame, Cresselia, Sigilyph, Thundurus, Tornadus-T, Zapdos, Clefable, Togekiss, Mandibuzz - maybe a few grounded pokes will still be used, specially those immune to toxspikes (steels and poisons ya).
    Like that, defog and rapid spin usage will decrease dramatically (also byebye defiant bisharp too), stall will decrease as well with the lack of its main hazard, and maybe sand offense will become more popular with sand damage like only passive damage.

    Still, could be fun to try the tier, so :3
     
  30. Cameltoed

    Cameltoed Excadrill gira

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    Does anyone thought about Manaphy for a second? Ok it's a all-100 base mon so the speed isn't its maximum but its very large movepool + Tail Glow (or even other sets like CM RainDance, TG RainDance, SubAArmor etc) makes it destroy every mon slower than him. You can just hope to check him w/stuff like lati or raikou but 1- Lati dies after icebeam and Hwish or other stuff exists; 2- Wacan Berry/Rindo Berry are not that uncommon and they're perfect in order to get rid of something
    It's coverage allows it to get rid of usual counters, HP Fire takes out Ferrothorn, EnergyBall all bulky waters, Psychic MegaVenu (plus AV Conk), ShadowBall is a good compromise to hit both Latwins and Slowbro.
    It just requires few support and it can destroy everything's not named offense. I think it deserves a suspect
     
    Last edited: May 27, 2015
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  31. Ortheore

    Ortheore One beautiful monster

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    Manaphy sounds like a decent suspect atm tbh. I've yet to run into trouble with it, but its presence when teambuilding is pretty significant, its Tail Glow set is v dangerous, with the ability to beat any of its given checks with the appropriate coverage move. I don't think it's too much for stall to handle, offensive Tail Glow is readily stalled out, while most mono-attacking sets are similar in nature to CroCune- tough to deal with but not really broken. Balanced teams can find Manaphy a nightmare to deal with though so it might be worth suspecting. I'm still not sure what way I'd lean regarding Manaphy but it's a good suspect candidate *shrugs*

    I've also started to waver on my MEye stance- I still think it's not broken, but I'm beginning to think a suspect wouldn't be a bad idea either, it just cockblocks so many things. MDia is definitely not broken imo.
     
  32. NaCl

    NaCl noided, noided

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    TG+Rain Dance Set though is not so common, actually deals very well against Stall because it easily setup on a lot of things and can 2hko/ohko most members of a Stall team with few boosts (only Unaware Clefable isn't 2hkoed under rain, but the Scald burn rate rewards Manaphy in a 1v1 situation);

    Only more offensive teams can deal well against Manaphy because they apply constant pression and prevent Manaphy to setup easily, so yea, prolly suspect worthy
     
  33. Cameltoed

    Cameltoed Excadrill gira

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    About Mega Sableye: as long as fairies exist, it will be not suspect worthy. It simply can't do anything with em (just hope tu burn DD Mega Altaria w/out Facade, but Altaria could be mixed also and could run HBell.. Azu isnt that used.. diancie, clefairy, special mega altaria etc are quite common so megableye isnt that nightmare)

    About Mega Diancie: it can run 4 sets: AOA, Protect+3Atk, RockPolish, CMind.
    Mega Diancie has several flaws:
    1- 4MSS. Without Rock Polish it can't outspeed its revengekillers even though 110 speed isnt that bad so it's the lesser evil; without Protect it can't megaevolve safe, it can't stop decently mega lopunny and it can't scout scarfed rkillers; without HP Fire it can't do nothing vs Ferro and Scizor in predict, without Earth Power it can't do nothing vs Heatran, not-sand Excadrill and few other things; Diamond Storm is really useful and Moonblast is mandatory. Psyshock in CMind sets help do something vs Venusaur and Chansey.
    2- Lack of wallbreaking power. Unless it's a recipe of CM/Plot Pass, it can't break a lot of walls by itself; MegaVenusaur, SDef Hippo, Ferrothorn(w/out HP Fire), Chansey, etc. If it's running CMind, it will be destroyed by everything it scares with Diamond Storm.
    Also Diancie it's really weak to priorities and every bulky ground/water in rkill, i really don't find it broken
     
  34. Finchinator

    Finchinator IT’S FINK DUMBASS

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    Finchinator / Finch
    I shall give my two cents on some things being discussed currently.

    Manaphy is a great measure against balanced teams and slower-paced teams in general. The best set, in my opinion, is Tail Glow + three attacks. What makes Manaphy stand out from other special attackers is the fact that it has a move, in Tal Glow, that gives it +3 SAtk in conjunction with a movepool that lets it take full advantage of the +3. The most common variant is Tail Glow + Scald + Ice Beam + Energy Ball, but Hidden Power Fire or Psychic can be thrown in. Manaphy is often able to set up without much trouble thanks to 100/100/100 natural bulk while attacking after setting up isn't that much of a challenge either thanks to base 100 speed. In regard to counters, Ferrothorn can annoy and beat (if it has Power Whip and avoids getting burnt beforehand or missing) non-HP Fire variants, AV Raikou (actually liking this thing as of late, surprisingly) can check it quite well, Unaware Clefable is a hard counter to it, Mega Venu walls any variant lacking the rare Psychic, Chansey (ew) fucks it over, Kyurem-B tanks just abiut anythin and retaliates for big damage, Empoleon tanks and roars it out, and a few other things deal with it defensively. Common offensive checks (or situational checks, to varying extents) are Thundurus, non-AV Raikou, Keldeo, Latios, Latias, Zard-Y, Serperior, Mega Manectric, and a few others. Overall, I would say this set is a menace to many balanced teams, but there are a sufficient amount of answers to it in the tier to either stop it completely or minimize the damage it may do to a fair enough extent. However, there are also Rain Dance (Hydration) + Tail Glow or CM sets that do help against some of the defensive checks mentioned above like Ferrothorn, Chansey, etc. as it can rest and continuously set-up. The thing is that these variants are even more passive and weak against offense while defensive teams can usually work around it due to lack of coverage that it doesn't heighten the pro-ban cause for Manaphy too much (it certainly helps it, but it isn't the biggest pro for it). Overall, I tbink Manaphy is a really good pokemon that may warrant a suspect for being so good against generic balanced sort of teams with various sets, but I don't think it is good enough - still sort of on the fence though, so please keep discussing Manaphy.

    Mega Sableye has gotten a lot of discussion in the last and still is, but after an initial hype for it, it has seemed quite lackluster to me. Mega Sableye is annoying and can apply continuous pressure on defensive teams, sure, but there is a long list of checks and counters to it and even with the increased bulk, it can still be broken through by almost all of the top tier offensive threats while also being slower than them. I can say without a doubt that the CM and defensive sets can cripple a lot of things, wall some pokemon, and prevent opponents from setting up hazards or trying to inflict status, which is great, but with fairy types (especially Clefable, but also Mega Diancie, Mega Altaria, Mega Gardevoir, Azumarill, etc.) being so common and so many things being able to 2HKO it or brush off anything Sableye has to throw at it, Mega Sableye just isn't good enough, despite the aforementioned positive attributes it possesses, to be deemed suspect worthy or broken. I wouldn't even call it a top five mega in the current metagame. With that being said, feel free to continue discussion!

    Mega Altaria and Mega Diancie to come!
     
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  35. Deleted

    Deleted New Member

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    The problem is that a lot of you guys are looking at Sableye as an individual pokemon and of course as that it is nothing special (still far from bad though). It is IMO more like gen 5 weather starters (Politoed, Ninetales), that weren't good on their own but were a necessity on many teams regardless, solely due to their abilities. Sableye now is pretty much that, but for stall teams (seriously, what other megas do you see on stall?). It gives stall a huge match-up advantage against the majority of balance teams since they use rock setters like Helmet Chomp, Ferrothorn, Hippowdon, Landorus-t, Skarmory, Terrakion etc. Stall is then often almost impossible to break through for such teams, mostly due to not being able to get hazard damage, meaning that double switching won't accomplish anything. The only two mons that can kinda get up rocks regardless are Clefable (very rare with SR) and Heatran (requires prediction). As for fairies countering it, only Magic Guard Clefable really switches in for free (disregarding Knock Off), others can get worn down or even crippled (Azumarill). Also, think of it in the context of what fairies gain from coming in, only Mega Gardevoir can really punish stall teams, other fairies are easilly walled by the rest of the team.

    I'm not sure if it is actually ban-worthy yet, but some of you are understating its effect on the metagame.
     
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  36. Lameflame

    Lameflame Active Member

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    Just a couple of thoughts:

    Manaphy: I'm really glad I wasn't the only person wondering about a potential Manaphy suspect. Finch's post essentially covers the nuts and bolts, but I'd like to extrapolate a bit. First, when you're talking about its checks and counters, you have to consider how it actually plays out in a battle. For instance, I'm currently using KyuB as my Manaphy check given its increased viability as a wallbreaker and anti-meta balance breaker. Yes, in theory you can come in on a +3 Scald and fire back with a Fusion Bolt, or whatever, but if you get burned then it's not really checking Manaphy anymore. Things like AV Raikou are still taking 50-60% from a +3 Scald. I am also still extremely skeptical of the argument that Unaware Clefable counters Manaphy, I've heard it a dozen times but it straight-loses to 252SpA Rain Dance sets in my experience (both using and fighting against Manaphy); if you factor in Scald burns, or even if you don't, it seems like it's just tanking a couple hits and hoping not to get crit / relying on Moonblast drops. To me, it seems like the only substantive difference between Manaphy and Landorus, as far as balanced teams are concerned, is that Manaphy needs a turn of set-up and Landorus doesn't -- yet Manaphy's far superior bulk seems to compensate for this trade-off. I know it has plenty of offensive checks but so did Landorus, and I thought the whole point of that suspect was that it's unwise to talk about suspect as though they're in a 1v1 situation versus all their checks (e.g. Landorus vs Latios). Manaphy just seems like it's extremely high reward no matter what team you're using it on, and the only risk -- being somewhat deadweight versus offense -- seems like a fine trade-off when you absolutely demolish the other playstyles.

    Mega Sableye: I have actually gone and tested M-Sableye on a couple different balance teams. It's not that great. It can be situationally very good, but to call it anything other than a balanced pokemon is really a joke. It's tough to say whether or not I'd support a suspect because Mega Sableye isn't broken. However, the primary concern is, especially with all these discussions of stall-breakers leaving the tier, that it not only over-centralizes stall but gives it a highly favorable match-up versus plenty of things that would otherwise give the opposing player some chance at breaking the core. Truthfully it would be nice to have a defensive pokemon suspected for a change. Also I strongly resent arguments I've heard lately (not necessarily here) saying "well, you'll just have to play smarter now versus stall, git gud" since Mega Sableye has become the brainless staple on every meaningful stall team in ORAS. Stall isn't a bad playstyle this gen, I would need some serious persuading to the contrary and moreover I think any suspect regarding M-Eye is going to come down to stall's strength as a playstyle, not M-Eye's individual brokenness or lack thereof.

    Mega Altaria: For the time being I'm pretty content with this being an S-tier threat and leaving it at that. Every tier / gen has a "best" pokemon (or two) and this will likely be one of them. Call it a simple argument, but having <100 speed in this metagame is just not good. I don't buy any arguments saying it restricts teambuilding because if you can't fit bulky steels, fairies or powerful STAB Ice users/prio on your team, in Gen 6 ORAS OU, maybe I can direct you to the RMT section of the forums. Many of its sets have common checks too, or synergize with a different M-Alt check such that a good team can come prepared. As far as unpredictability, every set it can run benefits from the surprise value it has in your opponent having to do a bit of scouting beforehand, which to me is nothing unreasonable. It also has to weigh the opportunity cost between choosing a set with more coverage (Return / EQ / DD / FB or Roost) versus entirely self-sufficient sets e.g. Cotton Guard + Refresh + Return. Essentially what I'm saying is that it can do a lot of things really well, but with only 4 moveslots and one EV spread at a time, it has to pick and choose its battles. Great pokemon atm but not considering this for a suspect.

    Mega Diancie: Not broken, no suspect, no ban.
     
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  37. Purpleseamonkey

    Purpleseamonkey PO Alt: y0

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    First let me say i really dont like regulating the entire metagame to three playstyles because to put it briefly, that is a huge oversimplification of a very complex dynamic system. There are popular cores that work and tend to characterize things such as offensive or stall teams. That being said, saying there is any one pokemon that completely neutralizes a playstyle is either just false or an excessive amount of hyperbole. There are so many options at our disposal when it comes to building all types of teams that we need to separate things that have very little ways of counterplay from mons that take advantage of popular metagame trends and cores.
    Which brings us to manaphy, it needs a turn to set up and its many hard checks/counters (KyuB, Ferro, Serp, Chansey, AVRai, Venu, Clef) are quite splashable on all types of teams (with some good offensive presences themselves). Unlike lando, manaphy is not threatening at all before setting up, therefore limiting its ability to weaken its counters. The inability to get off two hits (or none if they outspeed and you set up) on incoming checks is hugely problematic for a mon so slow and one dimentional. Every electric type, sans rotom, can come in and live any attack, outspeed, and ohko. Its lack of speed enables most offensive mons to end a sweep with strong stabs limiting its ability to set up even further. With optimal coverage manaphy has a couple of hard counters in chansey, venu, fero, clef, and kyub; and while having hard counters is not definitive evidence that something is balanced, when the mon in question functions as an all out sweeper it is a very good indicator.
     
  38. Lameflame

    Lameflame Active Member

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    I agree with you that it's over-simplification to say that every team is one playstyle / archetype or another, or that it has to be stall, balance or offense. I also agree with you that there is a substantial difference between a pokemon that is difficult to counter-play versus something that's anti-meta. My point about Manaphy is that if you look at what people choose to use on "balance" teams, or stall, bulky offense, semi-stall, etc., you are going to see a relatively smaller group of OU viable pokemon to fill the defensive niches these teams need filled. Manaphy has ways of beating almost every one of these, even with sub-optimal coverage. It seems to me that if you aren't running fast offensive mons, you are already fighting a losing battle against Manaphy. The only "hard counters" Manaphy has are things like Gastrodon, Jellicent and Seismitoad on the OU CM set with just Scald. Even when you do bring the Manaphy checks, things like Power Whip Ferro/KyuB are hoping not to get burned, Unaware Clef is trying to manage burns + crits + recovery stalling which seems like a very lackluster way to "beat" something, Chansey gets set-up on regardless of the coverage and so you're left with, again, a couple of fast offensive mons. Which is fine, and I'm all for a more offensive metagame, but that's if we acknowledge that overcentralization is no longer as strong of an argument in keeping something or not.
     
  39. Purpleseamonkey

    Purpleseamonkey PO Alt: y0

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    Manaphy can never kill chansey unless its rain rest and that has a whole host of other counters and is a generally flawed set
    +6 252 SpA Manaphy Surf vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 250-295 (38.9 - 45.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

    Kyub's choice scarf set always counters even if you get burned while they predict a switch and scald
    252+ Atk Teravolt burned Kyurem-B Fusion Bolt vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 147-173 (43.1 - 50.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

    The lo wins 70% of the time if they go for the tail glow (30% scald burn so you deal ~47% with FB) and always if they go for the scald (even if they get the burn)
    252+ Atk Teravolt burned Kyurem-B Fusion Bolt vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 147-173 (43.1 - 50.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
    252 SpA Manaphy Scald vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kyurem-B: 60-71 (15.3 - 18.1%) -- 98.4% chance to 4HKO after burn damage

    Ferro with leach seed beats any non rain rest and power whip+seed beats all.
    +3 252 SpA Manaphy Scald vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 103-122 (29.2 - 34.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery and burn damage
    Loses even if it gets the burn

    UnClef carries aromatherapy so it will always be able to heal itself up and kill your manaphy
    252 SpA Manaphy Scald vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Unaware Clefable: 118-141 (29.9 - 35.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery and burn damage
    or even
    252 SpA Manaphy Scald vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Unaware Clefable: 93-111 (23.6 - 28.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery and burn damage

    In regards to rain rest: rain rest beats two of manaphy's best counters in chansey and Clefable, but the problem with this set is that it gains a whole host of other counters and makes some overlaping checks/counters even more threatening. RR Manaphy give free switches in to serp, Celebi, Thund/T, Kyub, Rotom, Ferro, Latios, Venu, Breloom, Keldeo, Goth, MAlt, other Manaphy, MSceptile (As well as all water imunne mons). There is almost no reason to add all of these counters just to beat clef and chansey so this set is much more of a response to peoples tendency to use these things as blanket checks to manaphy (and because both of these things are on all stall).

    TG 3 attacks can never be useful against stall teams but is still a slow sweeper. Rain rest is bad because it's only good vs a chansey+clef stall team that decided not to check RR Mana. Both sets have a lot of counters and require a good deal of support as all out sweepers. Manaphy is not broken because all types of teams can find common switchins and it has a good deal of risk itself for a mon that can be so easily threatened and find itself unable to setup.

    Thundurus and MEye seem like the most centralizing aspects of the metagame simply due to their utility
     
    Last edited: May 28, 2015
  40. Haze Victory

    Haze Victory Dem slumps..~

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    Suspect it or not,but am gonna leave 2 RMT's teams that very well utilize a MEye,and maybe people can play around with it to see the way MEye works.Most people have a misconception of picking up the CM set on MEye and building around it,what they don't realize is that MEye doesn't need support.It IS the support.

    MEye Semi-stall by Branflakes (A player from Smogon.)
    Sableye (M) @ Sablenite
    Trait: Prankster
    EVs: 248 HP / 252 SDef / 8 Spd
    Careful Nature (+SDef, -SAtk)
    - Fake Out
    - Knock Off
    - Will-O-Wisp
    - Recover

    Excadrill (M) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Mold Breaker
    EVs: 220 HP / 252 SDef / 36 Spd
    Careful Nature (+SDef, -SAtk)
    - Earthquake
    - Iron Head
    - Toxic
    - Rapid Spin

    Manaphy @ Leftovers
    Trait: Hydration
    EVs: 240 HP / 252 SDef / 16 Spd
    Calm Nature (+SDef, -Atk)
    - Scald
    - U-turn
    - Rain Dance
    - Rest

    Gliscor (M) @ Toxic Orb
    Trait: Poison Heal
    EVs: 248 HP / 244 Def / 16 Spd
    Impish Nature (+Def, -SAtk)
    - Earthquake
    - U-turn
    - Taunt
    - Stealth Rock

    Talonflame (M) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Gale Wings
    EVs: 192 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def / 60 Spd
    Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
    - Brave Bird
    - Will-O-Wisp
    - Taunt
    - Roost

    Clefable (M) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Unaware
    EVs: 248 HP / 184 Def / 76 SDef
    IVs: 0 Atk
    Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
    - Moonblast
    - Calm Mind
    - Heal Bell
    - Moonlight


    Team by a friend of mine.Yagami_Light.
    Sableye (M) @ Sablenite
    Trait: Prankster
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SDef
    Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
    - Calm Mind
    - Dark Pulse
    - Recover
    - Will-O-Wisp

    Heatran (M) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Flash Fire
    EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SDef
    Calm Nature (+SDef, -Atk)
    - Earth Power
    - Lava Plume
    - Roar
    - Stealth Rock

    Chansey (F) @ Eviolite
    Trait: Natural Cure
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SDef
    Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
    - Heal Bell
    - Protect
    - Seismic Toss
    - Wish

    Quagsire (M) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Unaware
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SDef
    Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
    - Recover
    - Scald
    - Stockpile
    - Toxic

    Skarmory (M) @ Rocky Helmet
    Trait: Sturdy
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SDef
    Impish Nature (+Def, -SAtk)
    - Counter
    - Defog
    - Drill Peck
    - Roost

    Amoonguss (M) @ Black Sludge
    Trait: Regenerator
    EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SDef
    Calm Nature (+SDef, -Atk)
    - Clear Smog
    - Foul Play
    - Giga Drain
    - Synthesis

    I don't take credit for either of those teams as I pretty much lost all my teams after I format my disk.These were two teams that I'd played around with prior to building mine,and gave me immense success on the ladder.
    Not sure if this infracts me coz I seem to be on topic here.

    As for Manaphy,it sure makes for a suspect worthy mon.Manaphy's only drawback is it's average base 100 speed stat.It's got a fantastic movepool,chooses it's own counters,and is capable of running multiple sets that works very efficiently.It sure may have a tough time against faster paced offensive teams,but it shines best when against more bulkier teams imo and can completely dismantle one given it's running the right set.The Rain dance + Rest set is one of the best stallbreakers out there by experience and it can always choose to run the right moves depending on what the team requires on it's other sets,in order to beat bulky offense and balance playstyles.I may be exaggerating here but Manaphy seems to me as something definitely suspect worthy and has a lot going for it.