[ORAS] ORAS OU Metagame Discussion Thread

Discussion in 'Past Gens Discussion' started by Finchinator, Nov 2, 2014.

  1. Purpleseamonkey

    Purpleseamonkey PO Alt: y0

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    Manaphy will lose to ferro running leach seed, twave, or power whip and does about 40% with +3 ice beam. Psy is not a very good coverage move as it means losing ice beam (dnight and lati's become problems) or energy ball (rotom, waters in general). Offensively Manaphy can be checked quite easily with both thundy (and thundyT) and serperior both being able to switch in on unboosted icebeam and 1hko. Not to mention kyuremb (quite good in the meta atm) which can live any attack boosted). Tbh Manaphy is sort of outclassed by Keldeo because having an extra stab that also beats chansey (something that counters Manaphy) as well as the speed to outspeed all 100s and chomp, thundyT, Landoi. If that wasn't enough Keldio also does better against latios because icy wind 2hkoes the switch without taking dmg, while Manaphy has to have enough health to tank a dracoM (does about 80% with lo). If you are patient and have solid reasoning, broken/balanced elements of the meta will be banned/unbanned (so not deo).
     
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2015
  2. Celebi.

    Celebi. Active Member

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    @Lameflame

    Manaphy is a Pokemon that I have used RELIGIOUSLY in OU for the past two gens now. It's one of my favorite Pokemon to use because of how potent of a force it is. As an avid user of Manaphy I can tell you that is does have some critical flaws. Tail Glow + 3 attacks doesn't do particularly well against Stall because it doesn't beat Unaware Clef and Chansey/Blissey (although weakening them enough means Mana is you win con). And more Offensively oriented teams pressure Manaphy way too much for it to be incredibly successful. Rest+Hydration is also a little match up based, but it's comparable to CM Clef, CM MegaBro, CM Sab. However, Manaphy happens to do absurdly well against more balanced teams. I'm gonna try to explain why I think it hasn't gotten a suspect, or even been talked about.

    Speed tier
    Manaphy sitting at base 100 is AWFUL. It has great bulk but there are plenty of faster offensive threats that can take chunks of damage off to guarantee a revenge kill (Talonflame, Mega Pinsir, Lati@s, Garchomp, Lando-I, etc.). Base 100 speed is also pretty bad because of the Pokemon it competes with inside of the base 100 Speed Tier (Mega Cham, Mega Garde, Chari X/Y, etc.). Most of these Pokemon Manaphy can't afford to set up on and potentially lose speed ties to result in Manaphy's death. The faster mons are outpacing Manaphy anyway so the extra speed doesn't help. That being said, Manaphy is "forced" to run less Speed EV's to outspeed key slower threats and instead add onto Manaphy's bulk. This is helpful, but often doesn't quite help enough when it comes to dealing with the stronger, faster offensive mons in thee tier. Unlike Jirachi and Celebi, Manaphy actually really wants the Speed rather than the added bulk. This Speed makes it hard for Manaphy to make a real impact on offensive teams. Stall on the other hand, is always getting outsped by Manaphy either way.

    Usage
    Sitting at under 3% usage, Manaphy isn't something that appears on ladder much. Because it doesn't appear much, it doesn't come into others' minds as quickly. The introductions of new Megas, and an insane Speed creep in the OU tier certainly hurt Manaphy's usage. Offensive teams are really popular so Manaphy doesn't make as much of an impact as it does in theory. Manaphy also has a bit of a hard time getting up a free Tail Glow. This usually involved a double switch, or some sort of slow U-Turn/Volt Switch to get Manaphy in on something it scares. Often times setting up a Tail Glow means taking a decent chunk of damage, that against Offensive teams, usually puts Manaphy in range for one of the faster mons to come in and revenge. The Rest+Hydration set finds it a bit easier to set up, but it's set up requires an extra turn. Being able to recover off the damage means Manaphy NEEDS Rain up. You'll have to switch into something that doesn't 2hko Manaphy, set up Rain, and then Rest in order to really get that set going. Again, it definitely functions better against defensive teams because often times their only way of dealing with Manaphy is status. Opposing weather also gives this set some problems as predicting a Rest means Manaphy does nothing for 2 turns.

    As a TL:DR, base 100 Speed hurts Manaphy a lot more than it does its other base 100 counterparts (Rachi, Celebi, etc.), the prevalence of Offensive teams and the Power/Speed creep ORAS brought hurt Manaphy's criminally low use. The Rest+Hydration set takes a bit of setting up to do, and against excels against Defensive/Balanced teams, and the Tail Glow set doesn't get past Clefable or Chansey/Blissey which you see on every Stall team ever are the reasons why I think no one has looked at Manaphy very much (although I think it certainly is suspect worthy).

    @Dr. Doom
    Ferrothorn is a good check. HP Fire ALWAYS wins, Phys. Def. Ferro kind of loses unless Leech Seed, Protect, and Power Whip. Plus it gets worn doesn hella quickly and has no reliable recovery outside of Lefties. The Rest+Hydration set gets 3hko'd, has a fantastic recovery option, and Scald can burn. Not a favorable match up for Ferro.
    Just a few calcs
    +3 252 SpA Manaphy Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Venusaur: 350-412 (96.1 - 113.1%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
    +3 252 SpA Manaphy Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Thick Fat Mega Venusaur: 176-208 (48.3 - 57.1%) -- 91.8% chance to 2HKO

    +3 252 SpA Manaphy Psychic vs. 252 HP / 240+ SpD Mega Venusaur: 262-310 (71.9 - 85.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    +3 252 SpA Manaphy Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 240+ SpD Thick Fat Mega Venusaur: 132-156 (36.2 - 42.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

    0 SpA Mega Venusaur Giga Drain vs. 80 HP / 0 SpD Manaphy: 192-228 (53.1 - 63.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

    I suppose if you want to run Sp.D Mega Venu you have a solid check, but you never recover enough to not die to Psychic. Phys. Def. Mega Venu just needs a bit of prior damage and it becomes a game of rolls (I don't know how to accurately calc how much Giga Recovers for Mega Venu) but after messing around on server a bit losing ~20% make it a game of rolls. Any more and the match up is heavily skewed into Manaphy's favor. Again, this is completely match up based. If Manaphy has Psychic Mega Venu always loses to 1 on 1. Ice Beam and it becomes a game of rolls. I suppose you could always Sleep Powder, but you run the risk of taking a +3 Psychic to the dome. Mega Venu NEEDS to be near max (at 97% Sp.D doesn't die to +3 Psychic) to reliably win. The Rest+Hydration set can set up on Venu. Although I do agree with the fact that Mega Bro is probably better as a CM user, Manaphy has its advantages. Again, these are 4 Pokemon. The two you mentioned are completely set based.

    The idea that Fairies existing makes Mega Sab not broken is ridiculous. Deo-D was also banned for a large reason because of the Deo-Sharp combo which hasn't gotten any less potent.
     
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2015
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  3. Dr. Doom

    Dr. Doom Long time hater of stall

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    Psychic and HP Fire generally aren't good coverage options. On Tail Glow Surf > Scald IMO, as that set's all about power. You also have to give up Ice Beam or Energy Ball to fit them in, and if you give up Ice Beam you lose to the Dragons (apart from Charizard X and Garchomp) and if you give up Energy Ball you lose to Rotom-W and almost every other bulky water for that matter. I know usage statistics aren't golden, but how many Manaphys actually ran either of those moves?

    I'm sorry, how is discussing a Pokémon checks and counters in a SUSPECT DISCUSSION ridiculous? You claim my point's "ridiculous" (clearly hypocrisy doesn't bother you) without giving any explanation why. And please stop with that DeoSharp bullshit - Excadrill can spin away the hazards and wreck Bisharp with Earthquake, Mega Sableye reflects the hazards back and cripples Bisharp with Will-O-Wisp, Mega Diancie does much the same with Earth Power (Moonblast is also a 2HKO on Bisharp). Stallbreaker Talonflame and Terrakion with Taunt also wreck this core, although they're less common.

    To everyone making using the "logic" of "a Pokémon has teammates that can deal with its checks/counters, therefore it's broken" - PLEASE STOP. It's a stupid argument. Bringing teammates to deal with your star Pokémon checks/counters is basic teambuilding 101. Moreover, you could use that logic as a basis to ban just about anything. Observe:

    Dragonite needs to be banned. Magnezone can reliably kill almost all of its checks and counters - Skarmory and Ferrothorn take massive damage from Thunderbolt and Hidden Power Fire respectively, most Fairies are wrecked by Flash Cannon (in Azumarill's case Thunderbolt) and on top of that Magnezone can switch in on the Ice, Rock, Dragon and Fairy moves for Dragonite while it can switch in on the Ground, Fire and Fighting moves Magnezone draws.

    Yes I know I posted this before, but obviously it's fallen on deaf ears.

     
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  4. Celebi.

    Celebi. Active Member

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    Huge ass wall of Psychic calcs for @Dr. Doom
    +3 252 SpA Manaphy Psychic vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W: 192-227 (63.3 - 74.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

    +3 252 SpA Manaphy Psychic vs. 120 HP / 252+ SpD Alomomola: 232-274 (46.3 - 54.6%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

    +3 252 SpA Manaphy Psychic vs. 232 HP / 24 SpD Alomomola: 364-429 (68.8 - 81%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

    +3 252 SpA Manaphy Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Suicune: 181-214 (44.8 - 52.9%) -- 85.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

    +3 252 SpA Manaphy Scald vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Slowbro: 164-193 (41.6 - 48.9%) -- 81.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

    +3 252 SpA Manaphy Scald vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Slowbro: 164-193 (41.6 - 48.9%) -- 81.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

    +3 252 SpA Manaphy Psychic vs. 92 HP / 0 SpD Azumarill: 246-290 (67.5 - 79.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

    +3 252 SpA Manaphy Psychic vs. 240 HP / 16 SpD Assault Vest Azumarill: 161-190 (40.1 - 47.3%) -- 51.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

    252 SpA Manaphy Scald vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Unaware Quagsire: 154-183 (39 - 46.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery (Quag does shit to Manaphy anyway)

    +3 252 SpA Manaphy Psychic vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Gastrodon: 239-282 (56.1 - 66.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery (Also does shit to Manaphy)

    +3 252 SpA Manaphy Scald vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Empoleon: 97-114 (26.1 - 30.7%) -- 67.8% chance to 4HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

    +3 252 SpA Manaphy Energy Ball vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Empoleon: 146-172 (39.3 - 46.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery (Emp does 0 to Manaphy)

    +3 252 SpA Manaphy Psychic vs. 200 HP / 56 SpD Seismitoad: 241-284 (60 - 70.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

    +3 252 SpA Manaphy Psychic vs. 40 HP / 216+ SpD Lanturn: 181-214 (45.1 - 53.3%) -- 91% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

    +3 252 SpA Manaphy Energy Ball vs. 40 HP / 216+ SpD Lanturn: 362-428 (90.2 - 106.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

    +3 252 SpA Manaphy Psychic vs. 196 HP / 0 SpD Lanturn: 256-302 (58.1 - 68.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (Lanturn is bad and Specs VS doesn't even kill)

    +3 252 SpA Manaphy Psychic vs. 224 HP / 0 SpD Tentacruel: 350-412 (98 - 115.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

    +3 252 SpA Manaphy Energy Ball vs. 224 HP / 0 SpD Tentacruel: 175-206 (49 - 57.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery

    +3 252 SpA Manaphy Energy Ball vs. 252 HP / 212+ SpD Jellicent: 294-348 (72.7 - 86.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

    +3 252 SpA Manaphy Psychic vs. 252 HP / 212+ SpD Jellicent: 147-174 (36.3 - 43%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
    So long story short, Psychic doesn't do anything bad against these mons. Most of which just get set up to +6 on and/or do nothing to Manaphy anyway. You never give up Ice Beam ever. Zard X gets hit harder by Scald/Surf.

    What do you mean they aren't good coverage options?
    Manaphy @ Leftovers
    Trait: Hydration
    EVs: 80 HP / 252 SAtk / 176 Spd
    Timid Nature
    - Tail Glow
    - Ice Beam
    - Scald / Surf
    - Energy Ball / Hidden Power [Fire] / Psychic
    There are a few other viable EV variations (max/max, enough to outspeed max speed Gliscor/Kyu-B, but this is the most standard)

    Scald > Surf imo because the only notable thing Surf does that Scald doesn't is having a better chance to KO Chansey after Rocks. The damage difference is so small is negligible. Scald has a chance to burn so when you aren't at +3. Scalding when things like Ferro/Lati@s/Mega Venu come in you have the potential to get a burn which significantly hampers their ability to wall you. If your team is weak to Ferro, you use HP Fire.

    I'm not saying your conclusion about Mega Sab not being broken is ridiculous. Saying it isn't broken because Fairies exist, however, is. Magic Bounce doesn't stop Deo from setting up hazards as Skill Swap is a thing (allows Sab to be Taunted as well, this can lead to mind games depending on the set. If I'm Mental Herb and you don't mega and Taunt I get a free layer. If you Mega and I Skill Swap I get free layers). I don't think it should be re-tested, but if others think so as well it's not in my power to decide. Deo-Sharp also wasn't the only reason for Deo-D leaving OU (the last discussion wasn't particularly good) but it was deemed that the overall support Deo-D provided was too much. I think it'd be interesting to see a discussion about Deo-D because the last one was so lacking though.

    @Purpleseamonkey
    Manaphy isn't outclassed by Keldeo in any way, shape, form, or fashion. They have two COMPLETELY different jobs. Doing 40% is more of a min damage type deal against Ferro as the fully invested Sp.D set is the only one that takes less than 40% from +3 Ice Beam. Thundy's and Serp don't really want to switch into an Ice Beam. They can only do so once and have to be used the rest of the game only for revenge killing. Kyu-B is actually a really solid check though.
     
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2015
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  5. Dr. Doom

    Dr. Doom Long time hater of stall

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    Stealth Rock and Spikes are a given on most Deoxys-D, as its claim to fame is being a fast bulky hazard setter. As for the final 2 slots, I could use any combination of the following moves:

    Recover so I can set up hazards repeatedly throughout the match
    Taunt to prevent opponents setting up on me/Defogging/laying their own hazards
    Thunder Wave to cripple fast frail attackers
    Toxic to cripple walls
    Knock Off to remove foes items, and prevent me struggling if I get Taunted
    Seismic Toss/Night Shade to do consistant damage and again prevent struggle
    Magic Coat to reflect back opponent's hazards and faster Taunts

    Skill Swap is a highly situational move. In most matches it won't be needed at all, and the moves listed above are far less situational. Even Magic Coat is more useful. Just because a Pokémon can run a move, doesn't mean it necessarily should.

    To clear up any confusion, I wasn't claiming Sableye wasn't broken because Fairy types exist. I was saying it wasn't broken because there's a lot of Pokémon in OU that can easily check it, and in the cases of Clefable, M-Gardevoire, M-Diancie, Sylveon, Special or bulky Dragon Dance M-Altaria outright counter it.
     
  6. Haze Victory

    Haze Victory Dem slumps..~

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    The only Pokemon I can see safely switching into a Mega Sableye are the Fairy types and specially defensive Talon.As for the notion of forcing it to switch out,fairy types and Mega Lopunny are the only things that come to mind.Most of it's other checks(Heatran and such that people mention) can either be set up on easily or beaten with a Metal burst/Night shade carrying set.
    Inb4 'Night Shade wut -_-?',It's a very viable move on Mega Sableye.Allowing it to beat opposing MSableye 1v1 and deals consistent damage regardless of a burn on the non-CM set.Metal burst in the other option but I'd rather not run it on a base 50 HP mon,but that's just my preference.
     
  7. Purpleseamonkey

    Purpleseamonkey PO Alt: y0

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    DeoD would be every bit as powerful in the current meta as before. While skill swap was situational before (just eseon), these days with every other team running a mega diancie or sableye skill swap would defiantly be standard because it beats its best and most common stops. DeoSharp+Ghoast would still be really dominate and would centralize hyper offense because its hard not to use Deo (so good), and then if you have deo you might as well run sharp for dfog. Deo's movepool is ultimately too good to be considered balanced in ou because any efforts to stop it can very easily be beaten by adjusting one move on its set and it has very little opportunity cost. We could get into further detail but anybody that has half a brain can see how good this would be with skill swap/rocks/spikes/(twave or recover) +metal herb/redcard. I hate to be so simplistic about it but something that has access to duel screens+ hazards+taunt and most importantly skill swap with that much bulk is wayyy to good at setting up hazards and working around stops to be considered for ou.

    Not gonna touch the mega eye thing because I'm very nonpartisan atm. It does have many hard counters but is also quite splashable to preform a variety of roles quite well
     
  8. Lameflame

    Lameflame Active Member

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    I appreciate the reply and the analysis on Manaphy. The thing is though, I'm still a bit unclear as to how Manaphy does not auto-win (and by that, I really mean automatically 6-0) Balance and Bulky Offensive teams. I know Manaphy's speed tier leaves it vulnerable to pressure by offensive teams, and that full stall nearly always runs Chansey to somewhat-reliably check it (kinda), but what is there for Balance and BO? Going back to what I said in an earlier post, if my options consist of avoiding burns with Power Whip SpDef Ferrothorn, mind-games around Ice Beam / Psychic with SpDef Mega Venusaur (which consumes a mega slot and changes my team a lot) or Unaware Clefable which cannot actually "beat" Manaphy IMO, I don't see how these team archetypes are even viable.

    Obviously that's a blatant exaggeration but my point is simply that one wrong move by the Balance user and/or one great read by the Manaphy user to get to +3 can end games abruptly. That's what differentiates Manaphy from other current suspects and ubers that I mentioned before. Maybe I'm totally off base here, but never (ever) have I run a balance or bulky team and faced the kind of pressure that Manaphy imposes from something like Lando-i, Gene, Aegi, etc. (Maybe Greninja, but even that is a truly horrible comparison as Manaphy doesn't kill itself to LO, has far better bulk, can get to +3 in one turn and can heal to full + prevent status with Rest + Hydration.) I really don't feel like I'm overselling it's capabilities; see the video I've shared in the spoiler below for an example of what I'm talking about.

    For the record, I am basing my arguments on the TG + RD + Scald + Ice Beam / Psychic set.

    I guess my question is: Do I have to run Unaware Clef, Chansey, SpDef Mega Venusaur or Power Whip Ferrothorn if I want to play a bulky offensive team in this metagame? Am I totally forgetting a great check to Manaphy, or am I really doomed to using these shaky checks to neutralize an average-risk, exceedingly high reward pokemon like Manaphy? Seems like a very unhealthy match-up reliant pokemon to me, and definitely suspect worthy.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qrs1UhCNce4

    Just as a disclaimer, I'm not endorsing either of the two players in this video, I just picked it arbitrarily out of the many battles I could have chosen which highlight Manaphy's destructive potential against teams like this. I didn't want to use one of my own replays because people would just say "git gud play better", or the like, and my point would be lost.
     
  9. Purpleseamonkey

    Purpleseamonkey PO Alt: y0

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    Off the top of my head things that check that manaphy (if youre running rain dance you should run rest): Azu, Ferro, Latios (counters if no ice beam), Venu (counters if no psy), CM bro, Starmie, Serperior (counters with no icebeam), KyuremB (counters), RotomW (counters if no psy). I really don't think rain/glow/two attacks is an optimal set because it loses much need coverage for offensive mons and lacks rest (and investment) to pressure teams that struggle to 2hko

    All of these mons fit on a variety of teams and playstyles and all have other uses aside from checking manaphy. Its bad speed tier and low power before setup allows for both offensive and defensive checks and counters. It neither centralizes the meta nor breaks past things that can check/counter all sets and is therefore a balanced sweeper. There is no intrinsic need to increase the viability any sort of playstyle. A meta full of stall or hyper offense can be just as balanced as one which encourages any pace of play
     
  10. Celebi.

    Celebi. Active Member

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    If you're running Rain Dance you're much better off running CM/Rest/Scald/Rain Dance, and the set I mentioned earlier for Tail Glow. Tail Glow + Rain Dance is sort of awkward as a set imo. It works but it's sort of a mix of the sets and I don't think it works as well as either individual set. Just a little nitpick about the video, PDC had nothing for (offensive) Water types anyway. I mean look at everything he doesn't have for Starmie, Rotom-W, Keldeo (Torny works until it gets burned), Azu, etc. Anytime any of the listed mons were on the field they got a kill (except Keldeo). Not meaning to take anything away from what Manaphy can do, but he legit had nothing for Waters to begin with.

    I don't quite agree with everything @Purpleseamonkey in his post (Latios has a good chance to get 2hko'd by +3 Surf, Scald burn guarantees, CM Bro beat the CM set, has a really iffy match up against Tail Glow, Rotom-W is never going to be a counter, Serp only counters the CM set). If you're looking for counters, there aren't many of those, however, there are actually a good amount of checks to Manaphy that can be used on balanced teams. I do encourage you to explore around a bit because they aren't difficult to find. I do think Manaphy is suspect potential. I'm just not overly convinced that it deserves to banned, or a major concern for the time being.
     
  11. Purpleseamonkey

    Purpleseamonkey PO Alt: y0

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    I really get tired of having to explain my self when people don't read and don't use basic logic when posting. Latios is a counter to non ice beam sets because if they tail glowed you gave los a free switch in, so even if they get the 1st turn burn they will be 2hkoed b4 the next attack. If they attack their scald does not 3hko so it is a counter. CM bro wins always (if no energy ball) because +3 scald does not 2hko and will be able to boost alongside manaphy and will always win the crit war. Manaphy cant 2hko rotom with anything but energy ball so if you dont have that gl. Same goes for Serp and ice beam except Serp can ohko and sweep. @Celebi. you seem to be giving manaphy two turns to set up at full health and then attack a switch in which is not how checks or counters work.

    The best and main set is tail glow three attacks which is worse than keldeo against stall because it is countered by chansey and venu (can fit on lots of teams). The opportunity cost for running psychic is huge considering how common rotom, slowbro, and azumarill are and that it does not ohko venu after rocks. The secondary set of mono rain rest is quite good vs stall but struggles against any offensive mon. We certainly wont suspect manaphy in the current meta because of all the evidence that it's not broken
    Id love to hear some Meye talk though
     
  12. Oh So Penspin

    Oh So Penspin Hail RNGesus, our Lord and Saviour!

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    The main issue that I have with Manaphy being a potential suspect is that it only shines vs Stall/Balanced, making its suspect worthiness extremely matchup reliant. Versus Offense it just lacks the speed, power and bulk (it has a good amount of all, but not particulary a lot in any stat) to really do the job properly. It's like saying Mega Lopunny is overpowered because it is so good vs Offensive teams.

    To me, potential suspects have all or at least many of the following:
    • Good matchup vs all/nearly all common playstyles.
    • Generally easy to slap on teams.
    • Metagame defining. This can be through sheer usage (Aegislash), metagame molding (DeoSharp meta) or forcing people to run multiple checks and counters/centralization (Genesect, Greninja).
    • A small pool of counters and counters for the most common sets.
    Manaphy just doesn't seem to have to those properties to me.
     
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  13. Edna

    Edna Chasing the Dragon Forum Moderator Forum Moderator

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    Manaphy is extremeley threatening to all playstyle I fail to see how it's bad against offense. Bulky takes less than 50% on Tflame B.birds, and can potentialy set up with CM/Rain Dance/Rest against water mons.

    But I don't believe it's banworthy for the following reasons:
    - Extremely matchup reliant, if you have the bad set against the wrong playstyle it will suck
    - T.glow sets lack all the necessary bulk to set up, unless you try provoking switches
    - CM sets are slow to set up and needs shitload of supports
    - Scarf set ( yes that exists) won't do enough damages even with the U-turn momentum.
    Of course I still have to admit it's an amazing late game sweeper. But it requires way too much support imo.


    Mega sableye: well, other the fact it makes stall a pain to deal with, it can fulfill many jobs ( already discussed up though). Still a S rank mon due to the support it provides, defenitely needs a suspect
     
  14. Celebi.

    Celebi. Active Member

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    @Purpleseamonkey
    I literally just said I didn't agree with a few things lol. That's it. Please don't tell that I'm not reading or using basic logic because I am. There is no need to attack me. I don't think Latios is a counter because in my book, a Manaphy counter can switch into +3 Manaphy and be fine (and also the only reason you should not be running Ice Beam is if you're the CM set. Otherwise the opportunity cost is too large). Checks can switch into a boosting Manaphy and force it out/live a hit and 2hko it. Seems as if we're just looking at it from a different perspective. No need to get all defensive. Relax. I could very well be wrong in what I see a Manaphy counter is, and if that's the fact, so be it. Even if that is the case, Lati still only counters the CM set because there is no reason to ever not run Ice Beam unless you're CM.

    Tail Glow + 3 attacks isn't worse than Keldeo against stall imo because Keldeo is almost always Choiced meaning it's heavily prediction based. I guess Sub/CM Keldeo can be a thing but then you run into similar problems that Manaphy has with other mons. Venu only counters Manaphy if it isn't running Psychic. Sp.D lives a +3 Psychic after Rocks but proceeds to die the next turn. Keldeo is a whole hell of a lot easier to deal with as you can basically just insert a Grass Pokemon on your team and be fine. Defensively dealing with Manaphy is much harder. Offensively they are about the same. I really disagree with the opportunity cost of Psychic though. Nothing comes to mind that can beat Manaphy if it is running Psychic over Energy Ball that isn't a healthy CM Mega Slowbro. Everything else is 2hko'd and none of the mons you mentioned 0hko back. CM Mega Bro loses if its forced to Rest after 1 CM which is why I called it an iffy match up.

    @Oh So Penspin
    Mega Lop is actually really good against Balance and Stall as well, but that analogy isn't even good. Limiting 1 playstyle vs. limiting 2 playstyles isn't the same argument. Manaphy has 3 of the 4 properties on that list. It isn't metagame defining because no one uses it.

    @Carlmurray
    Manaphy is kind of bad against Offense because of it's Speed Tier and reliance on setting up to be anything threatening. Most offensive teams can pressure it out of setting up/deal with it rather quickly after it sets up. The CM set is a little better it just has a hard time finding opportunities to set up.

    I think Manaphy is certainly suspect worthy, not saying I think it should be banned because I'm not convinced that it should, but I don't think Manaphy is anywhere near top priority.

    Anyway, about Mega Sab. I think it definitely needs a suspect. None of the Offensive Fairies can switch into willy nilly. Mega Garde and Mega Diance can switch into it twice(unless Dark Pulse/Mega Garde). Azumarill fears the burn. Physical Mega Altaria needs Heal Bell, otherwise it fears the burn. The Special set can switch in pretty freely though.

    4 SpA Mega Sableye Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Mega Diancie: 78-93 (32.3 - 38.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
    4 SpA Mega Sableye Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Diancie: 70-84 (29 - 34.8%) -- 100% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
    0- Atk Mega Sableye Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Mega Diancie: 79-93 (32.7 - 38.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
    0- Atk Mega Sableye Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Diancie: 72-84 (29.8 - 34.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

    4 SpA Mega Sableye Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gardevoir: 116-140 (41.8 - 50.5%) -- 90.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    0- Atk Mega Sableye Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 24 Def Mega Gardevoir: 109-130 (39.3 - 46.9%) -- 37.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

    Outside of these Fairies Mega Sab is a giant pain in the ass. The CM set can set up whenever it wants without fearing status (bar Synchro/Magic Bounce/Scald/Lava Plume users) or phazing outside of Dtail. It can sweep teams rather easily. It's incredibly difficult to kill, and it renders quite a few Pokemon useless. The defensive sets are also rather difficult to deal with. Not in the same way as the CM set, but it's walling potential is really high. Mega Sab does have the potential easily overwhelmed because of its defensive nature, slow speed, and no leftovers, but like I said earlier, unless you have one of these Fairies, hell, even with these Fairies, Mega Sab provides far too much utility for Balance/Stall.
     
  15. Oh So Penspin

    Oh So Penspin Hail RNGesus, our Lord and Saviour!

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    Now that the bantrain has departed from station Landorus-I (choo choo!), I'd like to propose its next destination: Diancite. I believe Mega Diancie is too much for the current OU metagame for the following reasons:

    1. Mega Diance has hardly any counters (easily removed by team support too). It's to the extent that it controls games on the higher ladder and in tournaments when used, to some extent.
    2. Mega Diance has versatility that is (now) unparalleled and in the given metagame, so many combinations have so few drawbacks.
    3. Mega Diance has above average speed and access to Rock Polish to bolster it to an even greater extent while it isn't weak to the most common priority either.
    4. Mega Diancie has spectacular power to abuse its coverage, speed, and other aforementioned traits.
    5. The ORAS OU metagame has a conglomeration of offensive threats that make teambuulding as a whole incredibly limited and even stressful when trying to fit some pokemon onto team. Getting rid of something that is broken as it is, even if it is borderline in the eyes of some, will only improve the tier.

    252 SpA Mega Diancie Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 181-214 (53 - 62.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 230-270 (67.4 - 79.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    While the power difference is quite noticable, Diancie has the following qualities over Lando-I:
    1. It has a much better offensive typing, as Fairy/Rock are both good STABs to have.
    2. It has a much better speed tier. 110 is actually above average.
    3. Its ability, though argueble worse than Lando-I's, enables it to bring a lot of utility to the team its on.
     
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  16. Edna

    Edna Chasing the Dragon Forum Moderator Forum Moderator

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    How comes diancie does not pack counters? Chansey, spe def hippo, ferrothorn ( if no hp fire!!), spe def mega scizor, phy def mega venusaur, mixed/spe def Mew and I pass some
    Not weak to the most common priority? Scizor is #1 in usage atm, and it has Bullet punch who ohko everytime lol.
    Not to mention it suffers from all the Mega Lopunny and scarf lando who both ohko after rocks.
    The Rock Polish set needs a shitton of teamworking, as you need to remove Scizor, Lando-t and others.
    And you seem to forget some things about it: If you are playing lead diancie, you must have Protect, and that can open free space/set up/sub to opponent.
    Unless like me you play HP ice, you'll most likely fail to ohko important stuff such as Lando-T who can freely ohko you.
    Diancie among all the broken megas, while it's excellent, is surely the less banable thing because you have 3 moves you could play, 2 pretty standard, so it's just debating to use EP or Hidden Power.
     
  17. Oh So Penspin

    Oh So Penspin Hail RNGesus, our Lord and Saviour!

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    Ferrothorn and Scizor get rekt by HP Fire and are easily removed by Magnezone. Thought Talon was more common than Scizor, so that's a mistake on my part, apologies.
    Mixed Wall Hippo is 2HKOd 96% of the time after SR, full SpDef is not really viable (especially considering Hippo is not used too often as well).
    Most MegaSaur are offensive nowadays, which means it gets 2HKOd after SR and the tiniest bit of residual damage. Furthermore, Mega Diancie gets Psychic/Psyshock, which can be used in the 4th moveslot.
    Chansey takes 78%+ from 2 Dia Storms + SR, so it needs to be healthy to counter.
    Mew (Hazard Control set) is 2HKOd 86% of the time with SR and can't do much in return.

    Funny that you mention Protect having troubles getting set-up on. There are not too many Pokemon as far as I know which will setup on MDiancie. Also, it makes MDiance able to deal with Scarf Lando-T and Mega Lopunny; it actually allows Diancie to outplay Lando-T (free switch if EQ, otherwise free attack) and Mega Lopunny isn't too keen on clicking HJK if it has seen Protect.

    Rock Polish is indeed a horrible set, but hey, it meant I could c/p Finch's explanation to ban Lando-I. Fun thing is that Diancie can actually pull-off a 4 Attack, CM or RP set; exactly the same as Lando-I.
     
    Last edited: May 11, 2015
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  18. Edna

    Edna Chasing the Dragon Forum Moderator Forum Moderator

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    252 SpA Diancie Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Hippowdon: 160-189 (38 - 45%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
    252 SpA Mega Diancie Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Scizor: 224-264 (65.1 - 76.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252 SpA Mega Diancie Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 104+ SpD Mew: 150-177 (37.1 - 43.8%) -- 99.7% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
    4 Atk Mega Diancie Diamond Storm vs. 252 HP / 104 Def Mew: 147-174 (36.3 - 43%) -- 97.2% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
    4 Atk Mega Diancie Diamond Storm vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 216-255 (33.6 - 39.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

    So hippo is a counter, Mixed Mew is a counter, Chansey is a counter, only way to beat it is to crit.

    In regard to Landos and Lopunny:
    Lopunny sub can easily Fake out then sub on the Protect, that means your team will get instant smashed if you make a bad play.
    Landorus staying is a 50/50 for both, both user will stay? One user will stay? The lando will switch and you Moonblast?
    Hence, Diancie even fears a Lead Gyarados as you don't know if he's going to DD, Mega, or attack.

    I'm not quite sure why you feel like Diancie is broken, it is too risky for it to bounce hazards users, namely Heatran, Ferrothorn, Garchomp sash, Landorus and some others. It's a nice pokemon, it's also the mega I've used the most so I'm aware of it's flaws, even a DD lead Zard will make you think twice before leading with it, not to mention those trolls Scarf/AV bisharp/Excadrill who will instantly make you lose a valuable pokemon.

    By experience, I can assure that some pokemons ( such as gengar) are far more broken than diancie because of its low 50 speed it has before Mega'ing and therefore having a hard time to mega ( let's be honnest, most the players are used to face Diancie Lead, so it's not like they don't know how to deal it)

    Also: spe def Jirachi will take it all day long, it's not when one loses to a pokemon because he has a unprepared team for some mons that we should suspect the mon every second
     
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  19. Purpleseamonkey

    Purpleseamonkey PO Alt: y0

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    Offensively i think mega dia has a lot of troubles regarding coverage and its original poor speed and sacrificed bulk when when mixed. That being said, I think we really need to consider the team support of magic bounce. Much like mega eye, dia is quite splashable on any sort of offensive team and is very threatening by simply supporting its team post mega. The reason many dia run protect is that it allows for complete hazard control as a lead which is very powerful. When dia was first released i thought it would dominate the meta with offensive sets, while this has proved not to be the case (any sweeper set is sort of terrible) its control of the hazard game has proved to be invaluable to offensive teams and has very few ways to prevent it from accomplishing its role.
    Yo yo this might be a little early for you all to hear this but,
    how about MDiancie tho?
    From the outset when i saw diancie's stats i was excited to use this thing and knew it would be ou material, what i didnt know is how good it would end up being.
    What it does:
    Rocks!
    Diancie @ Diancite Lv. 100 -- Clear Body


    Nature: Naive/Timid - EVs: 252 SAtk / 252 Spd

    • Earth Power
    • Stealth Rock
    • Moonblast
    • Diamond Storm/ Hidden Power
    Diancie is unique because it is the most defensive user of magic bounce with great fairy typing and 50/110/110. These combination of traits make Dianical once of the best stealthrock setters in ORAS beating lead talonflame and preventing opponents from setting up rocks themselves. In addition to this MDianical speed and typing make it extremely hard for any defogger to even think of throwing one up

    Ohkos all defoggers after rocks (sans skarm)
    4 Atk Diancie Diamond Storm vs. 252 HP / 168+ Def Zapdos: 284-336 (73.9 - 87.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
    252 SpA Diancie Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Latias: 288-342 (95.6 - 113.6%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
    252 SpA Diancie Moonblast vs. 248 HP / 108 SpD Mandibuzz: 338-402 (79.9 - 95%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
    252 SpA Diancie Moonblast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Latios: 336-396 (111.2 - 131.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    252 SpA Diancie Hidden Power Fire vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Mega Scizor: 304-360 (88.6 - 104.9%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
    252 SpA Diancie Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Skarmory: 204-242 (61 - 72.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery


    Ohkos and outspeeds exca
    252 SpA Diancie Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Excadrill: 326-384 (90.3 - 106.3%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO


    Beats heatran (who fails to set up rocks!)
    252 SpA Diancie Earth Power vs. 248 HP / 220+ SpD Heatran: 328-388 (85.1 - 100.7%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
    0 SpA Heatran Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Diancie: 150-178 (62.2 - 73.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery



    Offense!
    Diancie @ Diancite Lv. 100 -- Clear Body
    Nature: Timid - EVs: 4 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd


    • Hidden Power
    • Calm Mind
    • Earth Power
    • Moonblast
    Diancie @ Diancite Lv. 100 -- Clear Body

    Nature: Rash - EVs: 64 Atk / 252 SAtk / 192 Spd

    • Hidden Power
    • Rock Polish
    • Moonblast
    • Diamond Storm
    Diancie has a sky high attack and spcA which makes having a hard counter almost impossible.
    252+ Atk Diancie Diamond Storm vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 279-328 (39.6 - 46.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
    But despite this it's poor physical movepool make running significant investment in attack foolish so chansey is a good check to most special sets (cm needs to be at +3 to 2hko with moonblast after rocks). Having one commonly used counter does not make dianicie balanced in ou. With base 160 and 110 speed diancie runs a very effective cm set that 2hkos most of the teir at +1 and has amazing coverage.
    +1 252 SpA Diancie Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W: 256-303 (106.2 - 125.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    +1 252 SpA Diancie Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-T: 327-385 (102.5 - 120.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    +1 252 SpA Diancie Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 352-416 (100 - 118.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    Rock polish sets are also becoming quite common to beat offensive checks such as greeninja scarf exca/rotom and functions well because it resists common dark and flying priority.


    Conclusion: Although diancie is susceptible to the common scizor, when supported properly with magnezone and/or rocky helmet it becomes too much to check both offensively and defensively. Diancie can effortlessly set up rocks while supporting its team and keeping up great offencive pressure, or sweep less balanced teams with cm or rockpolish for stall and hyperoffence respectively. Its combination of high powered attacks, high utility ability, good coverage make it suspect in the ou environment.
    While my opinion has shifted from this original post, it does highlight dia's versatility in the current meta despite its now obvious flaws
     
    Last edited: May 11, 2015
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  20. Ortheore

    Ortheore One beautiful monster

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    mmm yeah I'm a little skeptical on MDia being broken. Being weak to BPunch, AJet and a bunch of relatively common scarfers is an issue, as well as the fact that in order to MEvo safely you need to gimp your coverage with Protect. And it's not without its walls either- unless you CM, a lot of mixed walls can take its attacks and wear it down, and if you CM it's still having a tough time, due to less coverage and being weak to offense. Amoonguss is a thing that hasn't been mentioned. I haven't run the calcs, but between GDrain and regenerator it isn't too shabby vs MDia

    I don't think its hazard control is especially good, a lot of hazard setters threaten it especially since it has trouble MEvoing, but this could just be down to the set/manner in which I've used it (I've run 4 attacks a lot)

    HP Fire MDia takes souls tho

    Not saying it couldn't be broken, just that I don't see it that way at this point in time.
     
  21. LordRelmar

    LordRelmar LordRelmar King Of Absols FFAr Competitive Battler

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    I think if mega metagross is gonna be in OU then it should not be allowed to have automize or rock polish or agility or what ever because when it is that fast you can beat it and have to bring priority like shadow sneak with sash because it still get bp and with its insane attack stat its not fair cause of the coverage it gets now with the move tutors in ORAS so if there is gonna be mega metagross they should keep Aegislash as well cause its one of the only counters and you would have to run defense if it gets its attack up with meteor mash but that is my opinion also I think that Lando - T should get thought about because it has gotten to the point where you will see it in almost every team and if not it, its ferrothorn I'm just tired of seeing them so something needs to happen.
     
  22. Dr. Doom

    Dr. Doom Long time hater of stall

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    Mega Metagross has already been banned. As has Landorus-I.
     
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  23. Oh So Penspin

    Oh So Penspin Hail RNGesus, our Lord and Saviour!

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    Wat. If we can use such spreads:
    252+ SpA Mega Diancie Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 112 SpD Hippowdon: 226-267 (53.8 - 63.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
    252+ Atk Mega Diancie Diamond Storm vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 279-328 (43.4 - 51%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

    More realisticly (vs Bulky SD):
    252 SpA Mega Diancie Hidden Power Fire vs. 248 HP / 200 SpD Mega Scizor: 252-300 (73.4 - 87.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

    50/50s and prediction shouldn't be used as an arguement imo, as it can go both ways. Risk vs reward is probably a better criterion.

    I really like this line: "it's not when one loses to a pokemon because he has a unprepared team for some mons that we should suspect the mon every second"
    That's basically what happened quite a lot recently.

    Do you even interpunct? :v Also, as Dr. Doom pointed out, these mons are already banned.
     
  24. LordRelmar

    LordRelmar LordRelmar King Of Absols FFAr Competitive Battler

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    wait then why when i was playing a couple of days ago they where being used in OU i thought mega meta was unbanned from ubers and wasn't aegis lash getting tested
     
  25. Oh So Penspin

    Oh So Penspin Hail RNGesus, our Lord and Saviour!

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    You must have been playing on Pokemon Showdown, Smogon's battle server. They use a different banlist than we do.

    Welcome to the forums here though =)
     
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  26. Haze Victory

    Haze Victory Dem slumps..~

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    Celebi,Bronzong,Shaymin,Ferro,Gastrodon,Jirachi,Amoonguss and Mixed Gliscor are some of the best checks to Diancie on bulkier teams and do their job at walling it incredibly well.I might've left out a few,but those are all I can recall off the top of my head.

    A few calcs with Sdefensive Celebi with a spread of 252 HP / 16 Def / 208 SDef / 32 Spd.Naturally,the 32 speed Ev's are standard to outspeed Jolly Tyranitar's pursuit,and the rest goes into Hp and Sdef.The 16 Ev's goes into Celebi's Def to survive a Diamond Storm regardless of Sr.Much effective spread for Oras and not hard coming up with.Tho Smogon doesn't mention it so don't expect the weaker players to be using it.
    -252 SpA Mega Diancie Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 210+ SpD Celebi: 135-160 (33.4 - 39.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
    -4 Atk Mega Diancie Diamond Storm vs. 252 HP / 16 Def Celebi: 160-189 (39.6 - 46.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
    The same applies to Shaymin.

    A few calcs with Jirachi (Standard Smogon set from their website.)
    -252 SpA Mega Diancie Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 176+ SpD Jirachi: 69-82 (17 - 20.2%) -- possible 7HKO after Leftovers recovery
    -4 Atk Mega Diancie Diamond Storm vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Jirachi: 81-96 (20 - 23.7%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery
    -252 SpA Mega Diancie Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 176+ SpD Jirachi: 176-208 (43.5 - 51.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
    -252 SpA Mega Diancie Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 176+ SpD Jirachi: 176-208 (43.5 - 51.4%) -- 6.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

    Bronzong,Amoonguss,Ferro and Gastro don't need to be spoken about.Standard Ferro always beats Diancie unless it's running hp fire,and standard stallbreaker Gliscor always beats it in the absence of SR making the two of them rather shaky checks maybe.The others mentioned tho are solid checks to a Diancie and will always beat it 1v1 regardless of Sr present.
    There ya go,I speak for stall and maybe really bulky offense and balance as well.What makes Diancie not nearly as broken to me as it seems on paper is that it always runs a generic set,ie Moonblast,Diamond Storm,Earth power and it's always safe to assume that it carries Hp Fire.Apart from that,it dies to most rock setters 1v1,bouncing back hazards becomes the flip of a coin due to which and I doubt is worth the risk for the most part.It's too soon to decide anyway tho IMO,and we should give it a reasonable time after the current shifts in tier anyway,if incase a suspect comes up.
     
    Last edited: May 13, 2015
  27. Purpleseamonkey

    Purpleseamonkey PO Alt: y0

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    I dont know why im seeing dia's with +/- attack or spc attack nature in calcs. Dia hits 110 and thats a pretty key reason to be +speed seeing as it speedties gar, latios, latias, mgallade, Diannce and outspeeds chomp(!!!), MGard, maxRachi, Keldeo(!!!), MMedicham, Zapdos, and MPinser. There is huge opportunity cost not to run a speed boosting nature so for the purposes of competitive discussion all spc attacking sets should be timid and mixed sets should be -def or -spcD
     
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  28. Oh So Penspin

    Oh So Penspin Hail RNGesus, our Lord and Saviour!

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    Those spreads were a sarcastic reaction to Carl's 252/252+ SpDef Mega Scizor spread. I'm well aware that 110 base speed is one of Diancie's main selling points.
     
  29. Dr. Doom

    Dr. Doom Long time hater of stall

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    Which is also why Hidden Power Fire's a risk. The negative IV means you won't tie with Lati@s, Gengar and M-Gallade anymore.
     
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  30. Sakuya Izayoi

    Sakuya Izayoi love to hate

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    ?

    sdef mega scizor and hippowdon are both fairly common sets in the current meta, why did you see the need to "exaggerate" your post with the first two calcs that prove nothing? furthermore i'll go on to say that sdef mscizor/hippo are probably the best sets they can run atm because they check a plethora of stuff. while yes, both probably won't run maximum sdef investment but they will run close to the amount regardless.

    having few or no counters doesn't make the pokemon broken. and in the same vein, having many counters doesn't make the pokemon any less broken. tbh i feel that the first statement is so terribly wrong, mega diancie barely provides to the team and it's not exactly the biggest momentum stealer in the metagame so i fail to see how it controls the momentum in games. tbh i have yet to see a game where diancie was so vitally important in a game where it just stopped the opponent from dismantling the team.

    tbh i dont really see how choosing earth power or hp fire as your last slot can even be versatile. what are the combinations that diancie have exactly?

    rp diancie isn't exactly a common thing and honestly it's a lot less effective compared to rp mmeta and lando i. mmeta had really great bulk and defensive typing which let it set up a rp easily, and lando i does have 2 immunities + a very important fighting resist which does aid in setting up a rp too. diancie honestly isn't that good of a bp user because its bulk is really terrible in mega forme. i guess you can rp pre-mega but even then it is still stupidly slow and outrun by a lot of threats even at +2.

    yea agreed

    yes its true that ou has lots of offensive powerhouses but diancie is a pokemon that through my own personal experience it is easier to just bring a couple of checks or fit a durable counter like jirachi/mscizor/mvenu that can continuously take hits. in the current metagame where balance is being so dominant (basically hippo+torn t+mega+fillers) megas such as mscizor and mvenu also fit perfectly in such builds. tbh most teams in the metagame atm are either very fast-paced teams (usually having 3 mons about the base 110 speed tier) or running these fat hippo+torn t balance that can stick around for a long time. both of these playstyles have adapted and it becomes relatively easy to handle mega diancie as long as you have a brain and know how to not sack your scarfer or fast mons early game.

    yea its true that diancie does have better dual stab typing than landorus-i but that's because landorus-i doesnt even have a good special move to make use of its flying-stab LOL

    yea ok

    what utility does it actually bring btw? bouncing opposing sr when diancie straight up loses to every single sr setter in the tier and even heatran runs flash cannon or epower now just to ensure diancie doesn't bounce them. diancie provides 0 defensive utility to the team and the only utility it brings to any team is that it does punish teams that lack a steel that take its on effectively, but if you can't even slap a steel despite them being everywhere and they are so slappable on every playstyle and on every team (such as ferro) or run faster mons to take advantage of diancie's fraility, i'll honestly be considering whether i want to scrape this team since it's probably going to lose to a lot more threats other than mega diancie. lando i at least has knock off as a general utility move but what the hell does mega diancie have and what does magic bounce actually provide for it?

    tl;dr diancie is a pokemon that is easy to play around and you usually already cover diancie when thinking of other threats or by slapping a steel. also if it runs hp fire just bring in any base 110 speed tier mon and just kill it. you are overestimating mega diancie's ability to break down walls when in reality it has a lot more obstacles in its way, and the metagame has adapted and prepared itself for it very well. it's definitely one of the better mons in the tier, but i honestly can't even call it the top pokemon, let alone a pokemon that needs to be given a suspect discussion to decide whether it should be banned or not.

    i'm happy with the current metagame atm, maybe if we can get rid of geopass chains that would be chill
     
  31. Haze Victory

    Haze Victory Dem slumps..~

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    Rp set.May not be as common but I have come across ppl running it.And even tho Diancie may have a hard time pulling a RP off,it helps outrun threatening scarfers most notably the likes of Exca,Mag,Lando,etc.Tho I'm not sure how well this Diancie functions pre-rock polish early - mid game here as it fails to outspeed anything past a base 95.
     
  32. Kland

    Kland One true god

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    i i think we should think about banning infernape next, like greninja metagross and landuros it can mixxed attack which is op as i can't safely switch in anything.

    I mean it's even faster than landuros and wit ha life orb and it's great typing can out pace most of the metagame and 2hko the WHOLE METAGAME!

    1. Infernapes has hardly any counters. It's to the extent that it controls games on the higher ladder and in tournaments when used, to some extent. AS below

    212 Atk Life Orb Infernape Close Combat vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 562-663 (87.5 - 103.2%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO with rocks up thats a 100% chance to ko

    44 SpA Life Orb Infernape Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Skarmory: 445-525 (133.2 - 157.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO easy ohko

    44 SpA Life Orb Infernape Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 515-608 (146.3 - 172.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    44 SpA Life Orb Infernape Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 8 SpD Landorus-T: 291-343 (76.1 - 89.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

    212 Atk Life Orb Iron Fist Infernape Thunder Punch vs. 240 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 255-302 (63.5 - 75.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    212 Atk Life Orb Infernape Punishment (60 BP) vs. 72 HP / 0 Def Latias: 156-185 (48.9 - 57.9%) -- 95.7% chance to 2HKO

    212 Atk Life Orb Infernape U-turn vs. 72 HP / 0 Def Latias: 179-213 (56.1 - 66.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    -1 212 Atk Life Orb Iron Fist Infernape Thunder Punch vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Gyarados: 348-411 (88.5 - 104.5%) -- 25% chance to OHKO

    44 SpA Life Orb Infernape Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Sableye: 148-175 (48.6 - 57.5%) -- 95.3% chance to 2HKO max def

    212 Atk Life Orb Infernape Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Sableye: 175-207 (57.5 - 68%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    212 Atk Life Orb Infernape Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 160 Def Clefable: 224-265 (56.8 - 67.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

    212 Atk Life Orb Infernape Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 160 Def Clefable: 299-354 (75.8 - 89.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

    212 Atk Life Orb Infernape Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 250-294 (63.4 - 74.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

    212 Atk Life Orb Infernape Gunk Shot vs. 240 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 338-400 (84.2 - 99.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    44 SpA Life Orb Infernape Grass Knot (100 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Slowbro: 244-289 (61.9 - 73.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO



    i mean it's a monster nothing can switch in vs it, and it has 108 speed!

    we need to ban this now i don't feel safe when this 1 pokemon prevents me from doing anyt safe switch ins.

    I Mean you can customise the infernape to choose what it beats and choice what you want it to beat


    AND i mean besides it's clearly brokeness abillity to 2hko the entire metagame, it has access to choice scarf which can surprise things that i try to out pace with,

    it can run set up moves like sword dance and work up and can even taunt stall.

    followed by

    "it has u turn to keep momentum regardless and that's coming off an attack higher than greinja's special attack"


    and it has fake out to break sashs!


    TO SUM UP: with the abillity to 2hko the entire metagame with it's life orb set which can be customized to beat what you want, it has u turn to keep momentum and. It can be set up sets to surprize people and sweep them, with a higher speed stat that landuros and has a better use of choice scarf due to higher speed and. It even has access to proirity of both physical and special STABS. ASwell it has access to rocks

    which means

    2. Infernape has versatility that is unparalleled and in the given metagame, so many combinations have so few drawbacks.


    3. Infernape has above average speed and access to Choice scarf to bolster it to an even greater extent. It also reists common proitiy like sucker punch

    4. Infernape has spectacular power to abuse its coverage, speed, and other aforementioned traits. calcs above prove this

    and finally my 5th point

    5. The ORAS OU metagame has a conglomeration of offensive threats that make teambuulding as a whole incredibly limited and even stressful when trying to fit some pokemon onto team. Getting rid of something that is broken as it is, even if it is borderline in the eyes of some, will only improve the tier.
     
    Last edited: May 14, 2015
  33. ZIAH

    ZIAH ¬_¬

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    " Ok. I've read over this discussion twice now and discussed the mater at decent length with my colleague, @@MetalGross, and we've came up with the verdict to the Landorus-I Suspect.

    Call us crazy, but we're banning it and here is why:

    1. Landorus has hardly any counters. It's to the extent that it controls games on the higher ladder and in tournaments when used, to some extent.
    2. Landorus has versatility that is unparalleled and in the given metagame, so many combinations have so few drawbacks.
    3. Landorus has above average speed and access to rock polish to bolster it to an even greater extent while it isn't weak to common priority either.
    4. Landorus has spectacular power to abuse its coverage, speed, and other aforementioned traits.
    5. The ORAS OU metagame has a conglomeration of offensive threats that make teambuulding as a whole incredibly limited and even stressful when trying to fit some pokemon onto team. Getting rid of something that is broken as it is, even if it is borderline in the eyes of some, will only improve the tier.

    I know this is very tl;dr ^^ but I've made 2-3 posts on the matter and if you PM me, I will elaborate once more, but this isn't the place as this thread is now being locked.

    Feel free to call me and metal out for not going with the slight majority in the thread, but many arguments were lackluster and failed to address opposing counter points. Majority =/= validity.

    tl;dr = Landorus is now banned from ORAS OU. "


    God damn Finch what happened to you
     
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  34. ZoroDark

    ZoroDark i know everything

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    i hope all of you get infracted

    For real this is an incredibly childish way to react to Lando-I getting banned. The first simile that comes up is that of a crying 3-year old after their toy is taken away. The decision has been made, so unless you can magically come up with good arguments that will sway the OUTL's right now, you're just going to have to suck it up. I bet that if we had waited until Smogon had banned it, which is only a matter of time, none of you would have been complaining right here and now. So just enjoy we're doing a much better job tiering OU than they are right now, and enjoy a more balanced OU metagame in which there's a ton of viable playstyles and niche Pokemon to use.

    edit: also if someone can come up with a decent infernape team actually post it im interested oO
     
    Last edited: May 14, 2015
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  35. Oh So Penspin

    Oh So Penspin Hail RNGesus, our Lord and Saviour!

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    @ZoroDark; all jokes aside, I actually don't mind too much that Lando-I has been banned, as it is probably more broken than Mega Metagross, Deoxys-D and Aegislash ever were. What annoys me though is the way the suspect discussion is organised here. Nearly all recent suspects have been very close calls; especially Lando-I which actually had a majority sentiment for no-ban. While it is true that any non-knowledgeble player can post on these forums, disregarding a majority is not a good thing if we want to keep some sort of democracy. To me (and to some others as well) it feels that posting on a Suspect Discussion has no real value, as the decision is made before the discussion has taken place. That is the reason some of us are childish and salty that Lando was banned.

    I completely understand that we can't use Smogon's voting system, as we simply lack the player base. I'm also not accusing @Finchinator or @MetalGross of being stubborn, narrow-minded or incapable as tier leaders, because I know they are not. However, I feel that some sort of OU council, to aid the tier leaders in taking decisions with significant impact (as banning a Pokemon to Ubers is irreversible most of the time) would be a good addition. This council could consist of skilled battlers (thinking top ladder, top tournament players, top forum tournament players and well-respected battlers in general).

    Just my 2 cents. I'll stop being salty and work on that Infernape team.
     
  36. Finchinator

    Finchinator IT’S FINK DUMBASS

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    Yo, I can't read everything right now, but the Lando decision isn't bejng reversed for a while, if at all. There should be at least one suspect or retest before Landorus is retested and I personally don't think it should be retested regardless, but if there are enough people with logical arguments asking for it, Metal and I will have to consider it.

    Also, @infernape team, some Italians used a team with like: Sash SR Lead Nape / Thundy / BDrum Azu / CB Dnite / LO Bisharp / Mega Lop in the past ( replay of it being used in a tournament can be seen here: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ou-33593 ) and I know Nog RMTd a team with an anti-meta bulky Infernape during XY ( RMT can be seen here: http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/rise-of-the-planet-of-the-apes.3508994/ ).

    Only post here about potential future suspects or retests in ORAS OU
     
  37. gengar17

    gengar17 someone turn this nothing into gengar

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    Mind you, i definitely couldnt care less if lando was banned or not, last time i've used lando-i was when mega salamence was in OU. My criticism that was deleted was more a jest towards the people who were bashing on the anti-ban arguments while implying that their sub-par pro-ban arguments are flawless.
     
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  38. MetalGross

    MetalGross gems…

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    Yea I had to delete a bunch of posts, please talk about suspects in this thread.
    Mega Metagross and Lando-I were both close calls, but I felt there was both times enough support in the threads themself to warrant a ban. I can assure you we read the threads thorougly before making any kind of decision. Paragraph votes just aren't a possibility anymore because the playerbase is rather low and there never were a lot of paragraphs that got approved when that was still being used.

    Kland I wish you the best of luck with Infernape, I'm sure you'll make it work. Also, I didn't know Infernape got Gunk Shot. Interesting indeed!

    Re: Diancie: Diancie is a good pokemon, but pokemon that arent weak to its STABs can usually take on it. For example, Clefable, Celebi, Amoonguss,... Scizor if it's lacking HP Fire (still a 50/50 if it does have HP Fire)
    Diancie's main problem is that it just doesnt hit hard enough. It barely misses out on 2HKOs against Hippo, Celebi etc with SR up. HP Fire is a necessity if you want to beat Skarmory and Scizor, but you lose out on the speed tie with Gengar and Latis. Diancie's bulk is hindered by its very low HP stat and most of the times you miss out on your first turn because you have to use Protect, which costs you a moveslot. Good mon, but far from perfect (and broken imo)

    Atm I'm testing out Mega Sableye. There's been some posts about it in the past and so far I can assure you it's an annoying as fuck mon. Not convinced it's deserving of a suspect yet though.
     
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  39. Haze Victory

    Haze Victory Dem slumps..~

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    Tbh,I don't really care about a Meye suspect anymore tho I wouldn't mind it getting one either.Imo the few things that make Mega eye unhealthy don't just include the incredible amount of support it pours in but the fact that it completely nullifies some of the best support mons by merely switching into them.Over the top of my head Ferro,Skarm,Chesnaught,Bronzong,Mew,Celebi are a few.Any set running 252 evs in hp gets this done,the remaining evs can either go into Def or SDef regardless.Speaking of Diancie,most it's checks are cold stopped by Sableye,and I'd think twice before using any of the above mons (Bar Mew and Celebi) while MSableye exists in OU.
    Do what ya'll have to lol.I've run Mega eye throughout OU so I can care less,but for the sake of the meta I wouldn't mind seeing it be the next suspect.With that said,the meta looks much different now after the last couple of bannings and I can already feel a higher amount of freedom when building nowadays.Say what ya'll have to but Lando being banned has opened up plenty of room on teams to counter other threats and maybe we should just wait a reasonable amount of time before our next suspect testing and watch how teams utilize this newfound freedom to cope with the remaining threats of the tier in this mean time.
     
    Last edited: May 14, 2015
  40. gengar17

    gengar17 someone turn this nothing into gengar

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    so like.. mega sableye + regular diancie or regular sableye + mega diancie?
    Anyway, i think sableye adds so much to stall, not only from its very good typing and ability and pre-mega ability, but as haze victory said, it just completely stops some very used mons, and if that is enough to warrant a suspect, so be it.