[ORAS] ORAS OU Metagame Discussion Thread

Discussion in 'Past Gens Discussion' started by Finchinator, Nov 2, 2014.

  1. Spoovo The Pirate

    Spoovo The Pirate Meep! Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    Because Baton Pass on its own is near harmless, and would damage the metagame a lot more than it would help. Dry Baton Passing is a helpful means of scouting, especially in lower tiers. I mean, I'm fairly sure this is why the restriction was made in the first place; to avoid banning such an integral move.
     
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  2. Edna

    Edna Chasing the Dragon Forum Moderator Forum Moderator

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    Problem is not Baton pass, but more Scolipede and Espeon in the same team. I think one Baton Pass user could have been way better for nasty passing, quick passing etc
     
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  3. Lameflame

    Lameflame Active Member

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    Oh we're talking about this again
    (and here I was hoping for a Genesect retest)

    Recent trends in the metagame should illustrate the dangers of banning something too harshly; all those that were in favor of banning Baton Pass outright versus complex banning it to 2 members (or 1 member) should take notice. Celebi has risen in prominence as a NastyPasser and a general Keldeo check, and I've even seen Mew's sets include more than just the common stallbreaker set and pass a Swords Dance / Rock Polish more often than I'd ever seen it. Banning it altogether months ago would have really stifled innovation and development of the metagame. Scolipede has not changed in any relevant way in ORAS, or even in XY for that matter (you could argue new threats like fast-taunt users, Talonflame, etc. have made it's job even harder). Espeon hasn't changed either.

    The only thing that's really changed about QuickPass teams -- namely the DennisPass team with multiple suicide leads, "screeners" and support Pokemon -- is the introduction of Geomancy as a usable move for Smeargle. I have actually seen regular teams with 4 non-BP pokemon, a Smeargle and an Espeon, just looking for an opportunity to Geomancy + Cotton Guard + Spore/DV + BP, the latter two not being too difficult after the former two have been achieved. Espeon has enough firepower after one Geomancy boost (+6) and one cotton guard (+3) to make Stored Power a spammable win-condition in-tandem with Dazzling Gleam. I don't know how you could argue that the team itself is broken or in need of being nerfed, since over half of the members kill themselves within 1-3 turns.

    My suggestions would be, in this order:

    1) Do nothing, but talk about the strategies in which players can play around QuickPass teams / manage lead-BP users
    2) Ban Geomancy from OU, as this is really just a Smeargle nerf given that Xerneas will never be OU...
    3) Really, let's stick with Option #1.
     
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  4. Haze Victory

    Haze Victory Dem slumps..~

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    In reply to @Cameltoed's post.
    Baton pass is already limited to 2 mons atm,but the real problem as I mentioned being Scolipede + Stored power,Magic bounce Espeon requires just one Baton pass user,Scolipede.I doubt banning Baton Pass altogether from the tier would be something healthy for the metagame as Baton Pass also fills in other roles as helping Psychic mons escape Pursuit,allow late switches in order to pivot,allowing ingrain mons to switch out,etc.And since we would have to ban BP from the lower tiers first before banning it from OU,which might cause lots of unbalance in the overall state of tiering.Banning BP to one user doesn't seem to do much either since as mentioned,Scoli + Espeon is all that seems to be causing trouble and you rarely find an additional baton pass user in these teams.
    Suspecting Scolipede seems to be a good idea though,since Scoli is OU already.It seems the the main cause Espeon is able to set up and is able to pass the boosts in minimal steps (Step 1 - Iron Defense - The step where opponent switches to an offensive mon/Taunt user to take Scoli out or put a stop to it.But by this time Scoli already got to +1 speed and at +2 defense thanks to iron defense.At this point Scoli sets up another Iron Defense if in case the opposing mon is a physical attacker or merely spams protect to get to +2 speed.)
    Step 2 - At the start of turn 3,baton passes said boost to stored power mon (Usually Espeon.And then sets upon the face of the taunt mon,if incase it chooses to taunt and/or phazes it out instead if it chooses to phaze Espeon by any means bar Dtail or Red card.)
    The only means of stopping this is playing carefully from the team preview,but the slightest of mistakes results in Scoli switching in on an unfavourable mon,setting up an iron defese and getting to +1 speed.Ready to pass off the boost.This may sound like exaggerating but lel.There aint any means of taking out that Espeon after two - three turns of setting up.And that's just the part Scoli plays a role in.CM boosts appear later ^_^.Making even quagsire look Dumbstruck lel..Oh wait,it always does :/
    Edit : Again,the reason I suspect this is because other quick passes can be put a top to through timely taunt,phazing and even an unaware mon.Scoli + Espeon well played on the other hand though surpasses this,and at the same time surpasses Unaware mons that one would expect to be an answer to set up sweepers.Making them much harder to put a stop to.
    Smeargle + Espeon is rather easy to stop through means of Taunt though Scoli excapes non prankster taunt by merely gaining the speed boost needed to outspeed said taunt user.
     
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2015
  5. Purpleseamonkey

    Purpleseamonkey PO Alt: y0

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    Suspecting bp would be a big mistake. It is very comparable to sleep in that it is not broken on its own but it becomes a dumb, over-centralizing strategy when you can have more then one user which is why I would have preferred a limit 1 to the initial complex ban; for consistency sake and logical tiering the augment was that chains were the broken element which was very valid. Setting the number to 2 seemed a bit arbitrary but the complex ban was defiantly warranted but bp is still sort of a problem because of the man running point. Scoli is a member of every good passing based team and is invaluable to hyper offense in general. The fact that all of these formulaic teams are so successful is mainly because it is very difficult to stop without really over preparing for it with prio taunt
     
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2015
  6. Fatarus

    Fatarus New Member

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    We should ban whimsicott from ORAS OU CC 1V1, it's just plain evil and if it doesn't automaticly win the tourney it ends up in sudden death where the opponent will change his team just to get a stupid taunt. Why would it be authorized come on it's an horrible torture for the opponent. Also we should autoban people who use him because seriously it's bull.
     
  7. Sakuya Izayoi

    Sakuya Izayoi love to hate

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    oras ou =/= 1v1

    bp is just gay to play against, its not overcentralising, it becomes a game of whether you pack taunt thundurus or its counters or you straight out lose to it.

    I would like to bring up discussion about MSableye as a potential suspect next, I'm just going to quote my own post:

    also protect msableye on its utility set is actually legit because it prevents mgarde/mdiancie + sr setter teams from shitting on it by leading with the fairy on the msableye lead while still safely mega evolving and having magic bounce to prevent sr from getting set up on your side of the team. also a v nice lure in forcing mlopunny to eat 50% damage if it goes for hjk :] metal burst is also p cool on sdef msableye as it lures in and koes zard y while also putting more pressure on heatran, doing a solid chunk of damage.
     
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  8. Finchinator

    Finchinator IT’S FINK DUMBASS

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    This is for ORAS OU, not CC 1v1. There are no bans in Challenge Cup and it is not intended to be a competitive tier. Please refrain from posting things of this nature in this thread in the future, thank you.
     
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  9. Dr. Doom

    Dr. Doom Long time hater of stall

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    A couple of Pokémon I'd like to discuss retesting:

    Shaymin-S:
    Yes it's very fast and quite powerful, and can hax its way through potential counters. However, it's extremely frail and I can think of several good checks off the top of my head: Chansey, Dragonite, Skarmory and Ferrothorn to name a few. SubSeed really lacks coverage since its STABs effects are just too good to pass up.

    Deoxys-D:
    If I remember correctly, the main reason Deoxys-D was banned for its ability to provide support with hazards. At the time, Aegislash was legal in OU and that was bar none the best spinblocker ever. Now though, Aegislash is gone; Excadrill is a superb spinner, and Lati@s, Skarmory, Zapdos and Mandibuzz are all there for your Defogging needs. Yes it will form a good core with Bisharp, but a Pokémon does not become broken if it has teammates that can deal with its checks. That "logic" could be applied to just about anything.
     
  10. Rabidragon

    Rabidragon Sakura's pet in Liga America

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    The biggest problem with shaymin-s is not really the power, is the drop of special defense with seed flare, with serene grace it has an 80% to drop the spdef of the opponent by 2 stages which makes extremely difficult to wall, for example a standard chansey may seem like a good answer, but after the drop of spdef chansey can only aim for a toxic or a seismic toss and will fall inevitably...

    252+ SpA Life Orb Shaymin-S Seed Flare vs. 4 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Chansey: 122-146 (19 - 22.7%) -- possible 5HKO

    252+ SpA Life Orb Shaymin-S Seed Flare vs. -2 4 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Chansey: 247-292 (38.4 - 45.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

    252+ SpA Life Orb Shaymin-S Seed Flare vs. -4 4 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Chansey: 368-434 (57.3 - 67.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    252+ SpA Life Orb Shaymin-S Seed Flare vs. -6 4 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Chansey: 495-582 (77.1 - 90.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    Sure, it depends a lot of the drops from seed flare and shaymin is probably going to end poisoned, but the point with chansey is clear.

    Dragonite may seem like a good answer too, and he can beat shaymin 1 on 1 with outrage and extreme speed, but not if he switches against a seed flare with a drop and loses the multiscale, he is then destroyed with air slash...(im using the standard DD set without evs on defenses, a defensive dragonite has chances to survive however)

    252+ SpA Life Orb Shaymin-S Seed Flare vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Multiscale Dragonite: 33-39 (10.2 - 12%) -- possible 9HKO

    252+ SpA Life Orb Shaymin-S Air Slash vs. -2 0 HP / 0 SpD Dragonite: 331-390 (102.4 - 120.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    252+ Atk Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Shaymin-S: 124-147 (36.3 - 43.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

    Ferrothorn and Skarmory are great answers too, but they are destroyed by HP Fire which is pretty usable once Shaymin-s is in Ou instead of Ubers...

    252+ SpA Life Orb Shaymin-S Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ferrothorn: 234-276 (66.4 - 78.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

    0 Atk Ferrothorn Gyro Ball (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Shaymin-S: 195-229 (57.1 - 67.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


    252+ SpA Life Orb Shaymin-S Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Skarmory: 234-278 (70 - 83.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

    0 Atk Skarmory Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Shaymin-S: 272-324 (79.7 - 95%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    We are not even considering a drop with seed flare in the switch with those 2, just a plain HP fire

    From my point of view Shaymin-S is still too powerful to play in Ou, his combination of power, speed, coverage moves and "hax" is really hard to handle, however his main weakness is SR and old fashioned priority with Talonflame or with ice Shard so its not really invincible

    I cant comment about Deoxys-D because honestly i never used one and i dont have enought experience to judge it
     
  11. Lameflame

    Lameflame Active Member

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    @Dr. Doom

    As an equally "long term hater of stall", I sympathize with you wanting to reintroduce Shaymin-S as a great OU wallbreaker. Unfortunately, aside from the fact that serene grace is atrocious it can hax its way past potential checks and counters, the number of actual checks/counters it has are very minimal. I don't see it as a balanced sweeper and honestly, the only set I think it needs to run in OU is mono-attacker with Seed Flare / Air Slash / HP Fire / Earth Power to hit and either OHKO or 2HKO a large portion of the metagame. It can do so without even having to run Modest in most, if not all circumstances. The only thing really keeping this thing in check is the shaky accuracy of Seed Flare and the chance that in certain instances, it will be forced out if it doesn't get the (really high chance) -2 SpDef drop. Talonflame, Rotom-H and Togekiss are the best overall answers to it, while Zapdos, AV Tornadus-T, and Chansey are situational checks based on whether the Skymin user gets the -2 drop, and how much HP they have upon switch-in (and if it's Timid vs Modest). For these reasons, I think I'll have to pass on a Skymin retest at this time.

    As for Deoxys-D, I don't think it's role will have changed very much if at all. I think given the rise of Mega Sableye it's capabilities vs those Stall/Balanced teams will be severely crippled as it's complete set-up fodder, along with being relatively dead-weight against Mega Diancie balance teams. Excadrill is a fantastic pokemon in this metagame, especially as a spinner alongside Reflect Type (or offensive) Starmie, so you are not wrong to make those points. Taunt SpDef Gliscor is way more relevant now than at the time of Deo-D's ban, as are other (somewhat less relevant) Taunt users such as Serperior, Skarmory, Mandibuzz and SpDef Talonflame, so these are all measures that make Deo-D's effectiveness as a hazard setting lead much worse. It obviously can perform other roles, and I think the effectiveness of those roles would determine whether or not it's a good fit for the OU metagame. It certainly isn't something that you could and should splash on any team of any playstyle, as it's offensive presence is minimal at best and as I've said, it's support capabilities are good but lesser now than they used to be (and Stall has much better things to be running anyway). I would be pretty enthusiastic about a Deo-D retest, even if only for a short period of time given that nothing currently stands out to me as being broken, over-centralizing or unhealthy about it.

    As for Mega Sableye, I'm very conflicted about this. I don't think Mega Sableye is a broken pokemon. It has a number of common checks and counters, most of which happen to be fairy type but not all (e.g. Charizard X, one example). The fact that it "gives stall control of the hazard game" is undeniable, as although it's not quite that simple, the stall player has a huge psychological edge over the non-stall player who doesn't know when to set up hazards, double-switch, etc. (as if we don't already have to worry about that with Gothitelle). I find myself having to play very conservatively against Stall teams that run it (so all of them...), and it's not really a winning tactic to play conservatively versus stall so it definitely has strengthened the playstyle overall since X/Y, not sure why people always revert back to the "stall is dead" rhetoric as it's stronger now than it used to be in my opinion. It will never appear on a HO team, and is really just exclusive to Stall (although it's certainly very viable on well-built balanced teams that can switch into the things that beat MEye normally), so it only really over-centralizes Stall. Right now, I think the OU metagame has enough wallbreakers and bulky set-up sweepers that can muscle past Mega Sableye and it's partners, so I am going to remain undecided about this for now until I have a better idea of where OU is headed.

    There is an absurd level of "offense-phobia" or "power-creep phobia" going on between so many players that people are making really rash decisions about what the next suspects / bans should be. I argued against the Mega Metagross ban but there was a legitimate pro-ban side and I see the logic there. Landorus-i isn't as omnipotent as people make it out to be, but is it potentially deserving of at least a suspect? Probably, mostly due to Knock Off's buff that lets it beat things that in Gen 5 would've otherwise checked it or forced it out (e.g. Latias, Mew) and the increased viability of Sludge Wave. However, people are now talking about "well gee if Keldeo is over-centralizing the meta let's just ban Keldeo" or "Altaria can run all these viable moves, time 4 ban", plus there's always that guy that is still upset that Thundy-i and Zard X are still around. I'm pretty tired of players looking to make OU into a Stall-fest whereby if you don't run M-Garde, M-Heracross or M-Gyarados, you're doomed to failure against all of the bulky teams in OU these days. I realize this isn't something everyone will or even should agree with, but it's just my two cents and the day I run into three identical stall teams consecutively again on the ladder (happened just yesterday) is the day I throw in the towel.
     
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  12. Dr. Doom

    Dr. Doom Long time hater of stall

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    OK, fair points on Skymin, while I would love a retest after reading the points you've made I have to concede that it probably would be too much for OU to handle.

    I'm OK with Mega Sableye - it's a great mon, but most Fairy types can easily force it out or outright KO. Azumarill has to watch out for Will-O-Wisp but still wrecks it one on one with Play Rough while shrugging off its Dark Pulse or Foul Play. Mega Gardevoir can switch into anything it does (pre mega evolving it can Trace Magic Bounce to reflect a Will-O-Wisp back onto Sableye), and then wreck it Hyper Voice. Clefable doesn't care about a burn due to Magic Guard and the Calm Mind set uses it as set up fodder, while the Unaware set completely ignores any boosts it might have while 2HKOing with Moonblast (unless it's running an in my opinion inferior specially defensive spread). Special Mega Altaria can do much the same as Gardevoir, although physical sets lose if they lack Heal Bell or Substitute. If it's already mega'd, Diancie can come in on anything it does without taking much damage and OHKO with Moonblast. And please don't anyone use the "logic" of "it has teammates that can deal with the Fairies" or "it can just switch out to a teammate who can deal with X check/counter." Bringing teammates to deal with your mega's checks and counters is basic teambuilding 101, and unless they've been trapped any Pokémon can switch out.
     
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  13. Edna

    Edna Chasing the Dragon Forum Moderator Forum Moderator

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    About Mega Sableye: While it is true it loses to most of the fairy types, it is a huge problem in Stall as an archetype. Stall have walls such as Quag,Chansey,Cresselia and I pass some to threaten most of the fairy who will eventualy loses by chip damage/hazards.
    Diancie: Chansey wall it unless you play physical diancie
    Azumarill: Skarm/Quag/Willow reduce efficiency
    Mega Gardevoir: It wins only if it packs taunt
    Mega Altaria special/mixed: Taken by Chansey
    Sylveon: Chansey
    Clefable: the CM versions/ Unaware win everytime, that's pretty much the best counter
    Zard X: can take willow, set up DD's etc, but loses to Quag
    Zard Y: Unless it has Flare blitz or DD, loses to Chansey.

    As you can see, most of the checks and counters are taken with stall teams and that leaves only Taunt Garde and Clefable who are really solution to Mega Eye.

    About Skymin: Excellent speed, hax pokemon like Rachi, but with better offensive stats, can run LO, Scarf, Sub Seed, Healing wish support. Will most likely be broken in OU, but a test could be nice.

    About Deoxys-D: Ew, Deo Sharp has proven to be a broken combo, it can run skill swap to take advantage of mega eye abilities and set up rocks/spikes, I think it will remain broken af.

    Smogon is testing Giratina-O, that was surprizing, because it can check stuff like Zard Y,Landorus( who are hardly counterable) and still giving offensive presence, defog support, antispin support, what are you thought on it? Do you think it deserves a test?
     
  14. Finchinator

    Finchinator IT’S FINK DUMBASS

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    Very brief thoughts.

    Baton Pass doesn't need any sort of restrictions right now in my opinion. The archetype is crippled to the extent that playing around it when you aren't using a completely passive team is possible and the game can often be decided by who plays better, which is how a 'competitive' game should be decided. Feel free to disagree and I will look into this moreso than I already have if I must, but I just don't see BP as being banworthy or anywhere near as toxic to the metagame as it once was.

    Mega Sableye can look broken from the surface and it was hyped a lot at first, but as the metagame settled and standards formed, the fact that mega sableye is just a top 10 or so mega evolution that is annoying, but not suspect or ban worthy became evident to me. Fairies are all over the place on bulky teams (I'm talking about you, Clefable) and they also run SDef SD Roost EQ Gliscor, which laughs at Sableye once Toxic Orb is up (easy to do vs most Sableye teams). This in addition to some other things leads me to the conclusion that it isn't "too good" vs stall despite it's abilities and movepool and against offense, it can be overpowered and deemed pretty useless besides the initial prankster wisp on physical attackers and checking hazard stack with prankster taunt and/or magic bounce. Overall, it's a solid poke, but nowhere near banworthy atm imo.

    The one thing that strikes me as being broken is Landorus-I. It has Sheer Force, unparalleled mixed attacking capabilities (with emphasis on the special side), a brilliant movepool, and sufficient speed (and RP!!!). In terms of counters, there are very few universal counters (only like Cresselia, Blissey, and a few irrelevant things) whereas many things have to risk it having [insert viable move] to check it and sometimes, a certain variant of Landorus can flat out win against a team. Rock Slide, HP Ice, and Sludge Wave have seen increased usage as of late and the already common Focus Blast, Psychic, Earth Power (ofc), Knock Off, RP, and even CM can also be used, just to show its versatility atm, and there are hardly any counters to it regardless of the four moves it uses, so add in the unpredictability and I believe Landorus is a bit too much for OU. Will post at length in the near future on this, especially if people disagree with me on this matter, as I have a strong opinion on this matter.

    Tl;dr: Ban lando 2015
     
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  15. Sakuya Izayoi

    Sakuya Izayoi love to hate

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    honestly i feel that msableye by itself is only really good for stall/balance teams because of the sheer support and utility that it provides to teams, msableye by itself honestly is really bad. while fairies are very solid counters to msableye, it doesnt prevent msableye from doing its job as a utility pokemon. thats what makes msableye push over the edge for me, it is a low risk high reward pokemon, it is a pokemon that will never fail to do its job properly as a supporter and bouncer for stall unless the opponent brings 6 fairies/checks then it cements my point that msableye overcentralises the metagame. the scary thing about this is that msableye has an entirely different set. cm msableye is by far one of the most threatening stallbreakers to exist, simply because it cannot be status'd except bar moves like scald/lava plume. yes cm msableye faces a lot more trouble vs fairies, but thats exactly why msableye+gothitelle is such a potent duo for obvious reasons. its true that msableye has a lot more counters compared to previous suspects but i also dont think there is a single suspect capable of providing the same level of support for an entire playstyle.

    zard x loses to foul play, zard y loses to metal burst btw so this only shows msableye isn't as one dimensional as it seems to be!

    gira-o is really really broken honestly, like the only hard counter to this is wigglytuff and protect clefable lmao,,, gira-o simply makes teambuilding so much easier because it blanket checks a shitton of stuff such as keldeo, landorus-i, zard y etc and promotes lazy teambuilding. on top of that, gira-o has really strong as fuck offenses and still excellent all around bulk. the most broken aspect of gira-o is that it is able to run so many sets effectively, just from the top of my head: subCM, subHC, resttalkdtail, mixed, offensive defog, eq+hp fire steel killer and all are extremely threatening against all archetypes. probably the most potent one atm is subCM because it flat out dismantles stall while still being able to grab a sub vs offense and p much guarentee a kill. offensive defog is also an amazing set that plays much like latios except it hits so much harder and much more difficult to play around. the ps suspect ou ladder is just so stupid right now, all teams i see are gira-o+shit attempt to check it+fillers. tspikes+shadow force gira-o is p neat tho and racks up more residual damage w/ poison on turn 1 n_n

    yea landorus-i looks kinda broken to me too but i feel that msableye should go first before landorus-i because banning one of the top stall killers would only make it even harder to beat a very well built stall team. definitely agreed w/ what finch said about landorus-i
     
  16. Dr. Doom

    Dr. Doom Long time hater of stall

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    What part of "Don't use the fact that it has teammates that can deal with its checks/counters as an argument" didn't you understand? You could use that "logic" as a basis to ban more or less anything. Observe:

    Dragonite really needs to be banned, as Magnezone can take out many of its checks and counters. Most fairies are OHKOed by Flash Cannon, Skarmory and non-Assault Vest Azumarill by its Electric STABs, Mega Scizor and Ferrothorn by Hidden Power Fire.

    Do you now see how flawed those arguments are?

    Going onto your points about Dexoys-D, Skill Swap is highly situational and for the most part there are far more useful moves it can run. Stealth Rock and Spikes are a given, and for the final 2 slots I could use any comination of the following moves:

    Recover, so it can reliably set hazards throughout the match
    Taunt to prevent opponent's setting up on me
    Thunder Wave to cripple faster attackers
    Toxic to cripple walls
    Seismic Toss/Night Shade to do some damage and keep Struggle at bay
    Knock Off to remove items, and again keep Struggle at bay
    Magic Coat to reflect back faster Taunts

    And that DeoSharp core? Most of OU's Taunt users (Gliscor, Heatran, Talonflame, Mega Gardevoir, lead Terrakion) can threaten that core easily enough, as can Excadrill who's immune to Thunder Wave and Toxic, spins away the hazards and turns Bisharp into scrap metal with Earthquake.
     
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  17. Haze Victory

    Haze Victory Dem slumps..~

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    I've used Mega Sableye to the extent of peaking the ladder on Showdown,and peaking the temp server here on PO and stayed throughout (Not sure if that matters though).Though I don't have much time now due to studies and and I pretty much had to stop OU laddering after hitting the top ten due to it.Stating,I've used Mega Sableye to a reasonable extent here.
    The only true counters I see to Mega Sableye so far are the sheer offensive fairies(Mega Gardevoir and Mega Diancie of the like),Unaware Clefable,and sheer wallbreakers (Mega Lopunny,and Azumarril in this case,which again is a fairy.) most of whom are crippled by a burn.
    Mega Sableye might be voiced out broken at times,but Mega Sableye is terrible all by itself and functions more as support mon that makes things possible.As a support mon,Mega Sableye when played right (Or when placed in the right team for that matter) almost always accomplishes what needs to be done,with minimal effort and with little to no risk involved.Morover making the stall team much harder to beat which it is implemented in and instead putting pressure on the opposing team trying to get hazards in.
    Though Mega Sableye's power is not IMO what makes it broken.It is terrible when it comes to that (Cm set is able to pull of such feats of sweeping mainly due it's bulk allowing it to do so and can be often be stopped by an early used fairy mon).It's the amount of support it offers to a team which foils many of the opponents plans and it's no hazard policy making stall even the more hard to kill is what does.
    (And also,coming from a stall user.Mega Sableye seems to be a mon that kills creativity when it comes to stall.Most stall teams not focusing heavily on Megaeye either automatically loses,or is running one itself.)
    It'd make for an interesting Suspect testing though.Most people seem to have very diverse views considering Megaeye's brokenness,and by the postings here so far I am hoping it's gonna get one.The above are a few points I wanted to point out considering Megaeye's properties and these are some I can think of,off the top of my head.
     
    Last edited: Mar 31, 2015
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  18. Oh So Penspin

    Oh So Penspin Hail RNGesus, our Lord and Saviour!

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    Alright, this will most likely a shitload of text, so I'll cover most of it in spoilers. Note: most of this is just me rambling and expressing my thoughts, so it's subjective.

    Development of the metagame
    I just want to share some thoughts I've had regarding the current OU metagame and the tier policy. Ever since ORAS OU was released, we've been banning unhealthy elements from the metagame without looking back. This was logical for a long time, as new metagames have a lot of elements that make it unstable and uncompetitive. Most of these suspects were logical and absolutely needed (Kanga, Gengar, Salamence), while others were less clear-cut (Deoxys-S/D, Aegislash, Genesect and Mega Metagross recently). This was also quite expected, as the most obvious broken elements get removed first. However, I think we are reaching (or have reached) a point of equilibrium, in the sense that the "most broken" OU Pokemon are on par with the worst Uber Pokemon. This can also be seen in playstyles, as the metagame was very offensively inclined at first, but is now shifting towards a bulkier metagame.

    State of the metagame
    At the moment, most people seem to agree on certain aspects of the metagame as it is now:
    • OU has become matchup reliant. There are many threats that teams need to cover; so many in fact, that it has become impossible to cover them all.
    • OU lacks creativity and diversity. Most teams have the same Pokemon, which makes for less interesting battles. While it is natural that some Pokemon are used more than others, it has gone a bit too far in OU.
    To add some personal thoughts: I think OU has what I would call 'the spoiled kid' syndrome; we're trying too hard to keep the metagame free of broken elements. Of course some Pokemon/items/moves are so broken that they need to be removed (I'm looking at you Mega Mence), but I feel some decisions are taken too quickly. This is not a bad thing per se, but once banned, the odds of ever returning to OU are very small, even if the metagame changes.

    Proposal
    The recent "unbanning" of a lot of Ubers to OU (even though it was an April Fools Joke) have shown that it's not necessarily bad to drop some Pokemon down one tier. This is what creates a lot of fun in the lower tiers; the Pokemon (and thus the metagame) change every now and then, not only because old threats go out, but also because new threats come in.
    I'm advocating the same thing for OU: every month or so, a deemed broken Pokemon gets retested in OU. Not only will this (hopefully) create a better game, it will also encourage creative teambuilding and stirr up the metagame. The dropped Pokemon does not necessarily have to be a former-OU Pokemon; I think Smogon showed pretty well that even Giratina-O can be used in OU without being too broken (although it centralized the metagame a lot). Furthermore, I also think we shouldn't only look at offensive mons. While dropping Lugia is a bit too heavy, dropping Deo-D or Giratina is a possibility.

    At the same time, we should not focus too much on unbanning. There certainly are some elements in the current metagame that are not healthy and that should be suspected, but I think it's time to look both ways. Futhermore, forum activity should be promoted somehow, as more people joining the discussion never hurts (provided they don't post one-liners and can actually think, which seems to be hard for some people).

    I'll probably edit some stuff in later, if I can think of more to say.

    EDIT1: Just want to make clear that this is not meant as an attack on the current tier leaders or policy. I just wanted to have some discussion going after the April Fools joke, as it provided (in my opinion) enough material to talk about.
     
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2015
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  19. Cameltoed

    Cameltoed Excadrill gira

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    Unbanning would be cool.... if only there were threats "worthy" of unbanning (and no Giratina-O didn't. Did u even play the ladder?).
    I don't think there are threats can be unbanned... maybe Aegislash but we should come at the "50/50" point and it would be likely rebanned soon.
    Deoxys are just hazards spam trash why would we unban them? Since gen 5 (maybe earlier) people tries to self-persuade themselves Deoxys are usable in OU then realizes they are just too much (unban -> HO with Deo-S -> ban it -> Deo-D > Deo-S -> ban it).
    Kyurem-W may be just a more powerful version of Kyu-B since it wouldn't suffer burn at all then fire-dragon + terabolt = so much cool
    but I think its drop won't be useful for the metagame

    Unbanning is a very delicate argument and should be done on really few cases that are worthy of unban beyond any reasonable doubt. And no one threat is, as now (maybe Aegislash... but no).
     
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  20. Oh So Penspin

    Oh So Penspin Hail RNGesus, our Lord and Saviour!

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    I used Giratina-O as an example; I'm fully aware that it's too much for the OU metagame. Yes, unbanning is a delicate argument, so that's why there should be a testing period, like with regular suspecting. Even if the suspect is deemed too broken (which will happen quite a lot of time I can imagine, those suspects were banned for a reason after all), it creates a "fresh" metagame where creativity in teambuilding and playing is encouraged.
     
  21. Cameltoed

    Cameltoed Excadrill gira

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    You have to enstablish another ladder to do so, because adding an "Uber" threat in the ordinary ladder would be too much for regular battles.. at least.
     
  22. Oh So Penspin

    Oh So Penspin Hail RNGesus, our Lord and Saviour!

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    Test ladder wouldn't be a bad idea yeah I think =)
     
  23. Purpleseamonkey

    Purpleseamonkey PO Alt: y0

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    It sort of just sounds like you're bored with the current state of the meta and want a new toy to play with. Something i like to call "bored kid syndrome". Almost all ubers would be very dumb in the ou environment because like giratina-o, there would literally be 0 reason not to have one on every team. I would support some retests of close calls that were banned before oras (ie: aegi and maybe even geno) but dropping something to "shake up the meta game" is only logic that works as an april fools joke (see: bored kid syndrome).
    On a side note it would seem like there is a good deal of support behind a mega-eye suspect and even though i personally do not think it is overpowered I think it would be really helpful to the tier if we didn't have to flat out prove something is broken in the potential suspects thread because it leads to very pointless suspects and a higher tendency of banning something as soon as it gets one. If something has enough support from the player base it should get a suspect and then people should argue their case.
     
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  24. Oh So Penspin

    Oh So Penspin Hail RNGesus, our Lord and Saviour!

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    I was thinking Genesect, non-mega Blaziken, Aegi, Deo-D/S. Not Shaymin-S, Palkia or Primal Groudon. It's not that I have nothing to play with, as I can learn to play other tiers or use less "viable" mons in OU (Volcarona is really good!) to have fun with =)
     
  25. Lameflame

    Lameflame Active Member

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    I don't think it's an unfair position to want to test out new elements in the metagame. It seems to be perfectly fine for people to say "let's see how UU, RU or other BL pokemon can be fit into a diverse OU metagame", but when the same logic is extended to the ubers tier, all of a sudden it's "bad player alert" because a pokemon happens to be dropping down, not rising up. Given the development with Mega Rayquaza and Ubers being considered an actual tier now, it feels like even more of a double standard. Additionally, it's okay for other ladders like "OU No-Mega" on Smogon to be viewed as a healthy alternative (unofficial) ladder to experiment without megas, but somehow an unofficial ladder that tests ubers is off the table. You have even said that you'd support potentially retesting pokemon that have been controversially or narrowly banned to ubers, with Genesect and Aegislash as your cited examples. No one is talking about testing Primal Groudon, Darkrai, Salamence, etc., those things are decidedly too good for any balanced OU tier. Rather, there's just an understanding that pokemon banned in X/Y (especially early in XY) have seen the OU metagame change rapidly since their removal and so the rationale for their ban might still hold, but it also might not. I could give anyone a half dozen reasons right off the top of my head on how Genesect would be so much less effective in today's OU relative to the one he left back in X/Y. Just sticking to the same stale logic of "if there are 20 threats in OU to prepare for we'll just ban a handful of them" only contributes to this wonderfully "diverse" metagame that all of the Pro-Aegislash Ban people advocated for.

    I agree 100% with this, suspects that feel pre-determined or biased from the OP aren't truly doing their job.

    Not sure I think Mega Sableye is broken either, and I'm currently on the fence about Landorus-i but I'm fine with a suspect for either. Though if Lando goes, I'd be pretty upset if Sableye didn't get a suspect, and vice versa.
     
  26. Purpleseamonkey

    Purpleseamonkey PO Alt: y0

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    Things that were banned by a huge margin will not be let back in ou. Its not that we can have some preconceived notations about whats broken. But we certainly don't need a suspect test to know that we don't need anything like giratina, or blaziken around. And especially not one every month. We could start another tier but it would not make sense given the size of our playerbase. If it was actually want to test something we felt would be legitimately balanced in ou, why would we not have the entire tier play it and not those who wanted the play the test latter because whelp, ho-oh is weak to rocks you know? 99% of these cases are common sense and those that aren't can be reasonably considered and tried by logical foke in a test unban that has a considerable amount of support behind it. We are not trying to test shoot darts to see what the tier can handle; that slows down and already long and complex tiering process. Rather, the point is to isolate broken (or nonbroken) elements that are viable strategies in the tier. Feel free to try to ague a test unban for skymin, or blaziken, or lugia or whatever, but just realize that it wont happen because they are very unnecessary, hence it needs to have left the tier pretty controversially
     
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2015
  27. pokemonnerd

    pokemonnerd Only uso listens to pnerd. Devo too. Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    This implies we have the current player base to facilitate a suspect ladder. We barely have an adequate number of people who are willing to post on the forums for suspects nowadays.

    Honestly, if you want to drop something into OU I don't see the point in using a separate ladder in the first place. Sure, Smogon does it and works, but even then if the pokemon in question was "iffy" to begin with, it shouldn't have much of an impact on the current standing ladder. The best players can always adapt to changes like a pokemon rising or falling from a tier, assuming said pokemon isn't insanely powerful to begin with. Which, as mentioned previously, would make it a stupid choice to test in the first place. Logic plays a lot into this, obviously Mewtwo would be a poor choice to test and unleash on the ladder.

    All of this also implies OU is what people consider "balanced" these days. If it's not yet, giving something from Ubers a try rather than banning a potentially broken element is quite silly and talking about it is pointless.
     
  28. Lameflame

    Lameflame Active Member

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    Yes, we can have preconceived notions about what's broken. Xerneas is broken in OU. Mega Mewtwo X/Y are broken in OU. Lugia would be over-centralizing in OU. The list goes on. No one here (and elsewhere) has suggested for pokemon that are blatantly uber by anyone's standards to be reintroduced to OU in any serious or even unofficial way - I don't even think a Xerneas OU metagame would be fun on a what-if suspect ladder. A small handful of people that I've seen have asked for Shaymin-S. Blaze Blaziken always gets mentioned as a classic case of "banned only as a necessary evil of not complex banning". Aegislash was super controversial regardless of whether or not it belongs in OU. Genesect is the best example of all, as it was suspected for like a month and a half, kept in OU super-controversially after a split playerbase and a tier-leader divide, re-suspected again and even still, more people supported it staying than leaving by numbers alone.

    So when you say the following:
    I guess I find myself confused. Every one of the pokemon you mentioned might be well and truly unhealthy for the tier, but your point seemed to be that they didn't leave the tier controversially or were never controversial in any way. For the pokemon I've listed (and there are others I could have), it didn't seem that way at all.

    To say that people wanting to potentially retest current ubers is "shooting darts" isn't being fair to the motives these players have. I think people generally agree that the OU metagame has an issue with match-up, and that with OR/AS came several new threats that aren't broken, but need to be accounted for in teambuilding. It's also agreed that no matter what team you build or archetype you use, you cannot reasonably check/counter every single offensive threat in the metagame, and in this generation of OU this inherent problem is enhanced.

    Most people think that the best way to go about solving this is to take all of the offensive threats and suspect them, even if that means substantially reducing the number of Megas to only a small handful. Once you're down to only a small handful of crappy / semi-viable megas, you sift through all non-mega threats that are either potentially broken (Lando-i) or even simply over-centralizing the metagame (Aegislash), and suspect + ban those too. This is exactly what Smogon is trying to do ("unoffically") in the OU No-Mega Ladder. What you're left with is supposedly a tier that manages each new generation's power creep better than before. Without retaining over-centralizing pokemon, you get a diverse metagame where more lesser-used pokemon are viable and the result is greater innovation in teambuilding and a less stale metagame.

    ... Except that not everyone thinks this way; or not entirely this way. Some people feel that the Aegislash ban de-stabilized the metagame - that sometimes, a centralized metagame that is more stable and less diverse trumps a metagame that is more diverse and less stable. This is a legitimate view to have, IMO. Understand that I am not saying over-centralization is a good thing. This is why introducing something like Giratina-O is merely a joke: it would require every team to run it, and a team that did not run it would be automatically worse off for not having it than a team that did. That being said, not all potentially retested uber pokemon would be over-centralizing, even with the new toy syndrome. Blaze Blaziken has undeniable crippling flaws. Genesect would be relatively far worse now than it ever was in the past (still good, though). Having an offensive pokemon that can allow you to check and manage other offensive threats thus allows you the same freedom as choosing a defensive wall, check or counter for the same offensive threat. Not every pokemon needs multiple checks and hard counters to be healthy for a tier.

    So in summation, it seems like when you say "99% of cases" and other similar things, you're really acknowledging the few cases of potentially OU viable "nonbroken elements" that could be "isolated" from the uber tier and reintroduced as "viable strategies" in the OU metagame. I don't know what counts as having considerable support anymore, but if there is going to be some standard for getting a suspect for things like Landorus, M-Metagross and maybe Sableye, that same standard has to be equally applied to support for retests. Obviously I don't make these decisions on what happens, but that just seems like my personal perspective on how to manage the player-base issue in a fair way.

    I wouldn't advocate for a suspect ladder for PO, there are serious limitations that method would pose for the tiering system and it's already imperfect. IMO, the point of it is to judge whether introducing or removing something from the metagame would actually change it in a meaningful way. Removing Aegislash presented a completely different metagame to all suspect-testers, who could then vote on the quality and enjoyment of that new metagame versus the current ladder. For something like Mega Sableye, though, I think this would be far less effective given how it only over-centralizes one particular playstyle, so your experience on the suspect ladder wouldn't be any different from regular OU unless you happened to run into many newly-innovative Stall teams from which you'd develop your opinion on M-Eye's brokenness. It all depends on what you are testing, but in most cases, it would serve as a comparison between which metagame is more healthy or otherwise preferable, which seems easier to do if you have them side by side.

    To your second point, as I've said earlier, people aren't looking for things like Mewtwo to be seriously retested. They are looking to see if certain pokemon, who are uber only because they were at one point deemed too good for OU in a different state of a different metagame, would be able to re-integrate into ORAS OU in a healthy way. If it turns out not to be true then so be it, but I truly believe people are making these suggestions in good faith with the state of the OU metagame as their priority, not any of this "bored kid" syndrome or what have you. There is no "OU Potential Retests" thread, so people naturally espouse these things here and with good intentions for a more enjoyable, balanced metagame, so even if none of the suggestions end up panning out, hopefully they won't be looked at as silly.
     
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2015
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  29. Celebi.

    Celebi. Active Member

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    So, getting back to the real discussion at hand I'd definitely love to see Mega Sableye/Lando-I suspects. Lando-I is a forced to be reckoned with as always. It has fantastic coverage and incredible sweeping/wall breaking capability. It can late game with RP and beat Stall with CM. It does have a bit of 4mss sometimes but it isn't severe. Definitely one of the hardest mons in the tier to switch into, and it sits at a pretty solid 101 Speed.

    Mega Sableye I believe has just too much going for it currently. It's sheer utility on Balance and Stall is absurd. It can run 2 sets pretty effectively (CM and Phy/Sp.D wall), and both are pains in the ass unless you have a strong Fairy, aka (Special) Mega Alt/Diancie/Syleon/Mega Garde/Azumarill. Even looking at these mons Mega Altaria is the only one that doesn't mind switching into Mega Sab (Mega Garde can switch in Sab with Dark Pulse > Shadow Ball). Everything else is either getting crippled or taking a clean 30%+. Even though it is such a fantastic mon for Stall it beats way too many Pokemon 1 on 1, even outside of stall, for me to feel comfortable allowing it in the tier. There are very few mons that'll consistently beat Mega Sab 1 on 1 and I think this makes it an unhealthy mon in OU.
     
  30. ZoroDark

    ZoroDark i know everything

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    ah thank god there's some actual discussion going on instead of all the fucking dumb talk about baton pass not that long ago

    to be honest, i actually quite like this metagame. there is a lot of options you can choose from and there's a really, really wide array of mons that have solid niches in this metagame, compared to how boring and stale xy ou was. fortunately there's also a lot of threats to cover and it's impossible to cover all of them which makes this metagame a little match up based. i'm afraid there's no real way to fix that though unless we go banning all the mega's, but then the metagame will default back to ttar + keldeo + lando i as shown by ps's no mega ladder. i can say this is a lot worse than what ou looks like now.

    there's one pokemon that's really shitting up ou though and that's landorus-i. it's just so incredibly powerful and if there's 1 pokemon that truly defines the metagame right now, lando-i is the one. slowking is one of those mons that's on the rise and one of the main reasons for that is because not a whole lot of lando's run knock off which makes it a solid choice. tornadus-t is seen on each other balanced team because it deals with rock slide-less lando so well. spdef gliscos was the bomb a couple of weeks ago but ever since lando-i started running hp ice more frequently its usage fell off. no other mon has such a big impact on the ou metagame and it's clearly not a positive impact. landorus has such an incredibly wide movepool that it can mix and match to its team's needs. it's not even really 4mss because it only needs earth power + sludge wave to do tons of damage to 85% of ou's mons and then it gets to pick 2 moves to up that percentage to around 95%.

    i apologize if my post comes off as somewhat unstructured (it probably is but im in a hurry!) but ill respond if there's points of disagreement or something
     
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  31. Deleted

    Deleted New Member

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    I agree that Lando-I should be suspected as it is simply too much for the current metagame. Most offensive and even balanced teams don't even have anything to take a hit reliably and Lando's attacks are very spammable, you don't necessarily have to set up, you have no recoil, no -2 drop etc. His 2 most used switch-ins (lati twins) are easily Pursuit trapped and Lando can beat them if he wishes with Knock Off. That same move ensures that chansey (most common special wall) isn't a reliable counter as losing eviolite is rarely acceptable. Things like Mandibuzz and especially Cresselia or Bronzong are much rarer and even they aren't foolproof counters if Lando runs CM or Focus Blast respectively. RP is usually still the best set though, Lando can soften up an opposing team and then get that crucial RP up late game to fininsh off the game. This can be very hard to stop, especially against high level players who preserve this threat until late game. The only thing limiting him is 4MSS, which many of the broken things in the past had as well.

    Something should probably be done with Sableye as well. Those stall teams are sometimes almost impossible to break through unless you run something specific like Gothitelle + Zard Y or you get lucky with a wallbreaker like Hydreigon for example. Sableye on his own is surely not broken (fairy and most fire types handle him just fine) but it is that defining piece on a current stall team IMO, just like Espeon is/was on BP teams. Magic Bounce really makes it harder to wear down stall as most hazard setters and many other utility mons get completely shut down (Mew, the best stallbreaker of XY being one of them). This one is a harder call than Lando because it isn't broken on his own but arguably makes a playstyle a little too good.
     
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  32. Zamrock

    Zamrock - OUTL

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    Anywho, if you're gonna suspect anything next, lando-I is a good option. I don't like the fact that I have to run a tor-t on every team jut to check the damn thing. It's coverage is so good that only a small group of mons like cressilia, bronzong, AV slowking, sp def skarmory and chansey being checks for it. Fact that it 2hkos or straight kills lot if fat shit like slowbro, clefable, gliscor, and others just makes it too strong for the metagame. Yes, you can revenge it with ease, but what are switchins to this beast that are offensive that I haven't already listed? Fuck lando-I, plz suspect.

    I would say more shit to backup more of my argument, but it's Easter and busy irl. I might bitch later. Suspect lando-I kthx
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 24, 2015
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  33. Lameflame

    Lameflame Active Member

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    Can someone explain to me how Manaphy has not yet been considered as a potential suspect? I'm not even being sarcastic; I would truly like to know how it misses the criteria for being an unbalanced, at least suspect-worthy pokemon. It pains me to say that as in the past I never had a problem with it in the tier, but in my opinion it is objectively worse for bulky + balanced teams than other recent suspects (M-Meta, Lando-i) and even current ubers (erm, Genesect).

    Maybe it's honestly just me but I find Manaphy to be extremely match-up reliant and a huge reason why people complain about match-up woes in a supposedly diverse metagame. What legitimately beats this thing 1v1? Chansey and Unaware Clefable are literally the only answers I ever find, and even then I don't know what Chansey does back to it as Hydration heals Toxic/status as it boosts to +6. Unaware Clef doesn't really "beat" it, it just survives it. Unless Manaphy is running a mono-attacker set with just scald (so things like Gastrodon + Seismitoed are counters), that about does it for universal answers.

    Then you have the issue of actually bringing coverage moves into play. Psychic ruins the only other potential counter aka SpDef Mega Venusaur, and unless I'm totally mistaken Psychic has a good chance of being that 4th moveslot. Ice Beam is the second most common (or maybe the most common) and beats Lati@s which could otherwise manage to beat it with Tbolt sets or Draco after it's been withered down (not sure how you "wither down" Manaphy though). The "just use bulky waters to check it" thing is complete nonsense as aside from the obvious Energy Ball coverage it could run, things like Alomomola, Suicune and Slowbro aren't doing anything back to Manaphy. Standard PhysDef Rotom-W is a check, I guess, but a very shaky one in my opinion since it's already an overloaded pokemon with other tasks than to sponge hits (potentially +3/+6 hits) from Manaphy, and narrowly avoids a 2HKO from +3 scald with rocks on the field. SpDef Dragonite (CBB Nite) is okay assuming you don't get burned by scald and they don't run Ice Beam.

    You also have assault vest users, but not all of them are realistic answers for Manaphy or can switch in after a tail glow. AV Conk wins only in certain situational instances and even then has to hope Manaphy doesn't have Psychic. AV Tornadus-T is probably the best bet in the current metagame, but has to fear ice beam, scald burns (only somewhat) and doesn't even 2hko with Hurricane, all while having 25% HP slashed right off the bat if rocks are on the field. AV Slowking is also relevant atm, and aside from Energy Ball sets, it's not doing much back to Manaphy.

    Some people complain that it's unpredictable in knowing what it's coverage is, but honestly the TG + RD + Scald combination is so potent that it doesn't even matter in most cases. It can legitimately sweep bulky teams with just one 60 BP move and zero coverage, if it really wanted to. How this isn't far worse than Landorus-i, Greninja, Genesect, [insert high-utility sweeper here] is currently unclear to me. It also has far better bulk than all three previously mentioned sweepers. Mega Metagross was at least weak to very common defensive checks, offensive move types (Fire, Dark, Ground, etc.), could only boost with gimmicky sets or a 10% boost (or miss) chance with Meteor Mash, had a touch of 4MSS and had no recovery -- and still got banned. What are Manaphy's relevant drawbacks? Low usage? More seriously, I can only cite it's base 100 speed as being it's biggest overall flaw, and while base 100 isn't what it used to be, the fact that the metagame is currently geared towards bulkier teams makes this not even a huge drawback. All of it's moves are 100% accurate with added effects and it isn't complete and total dead-weight against HO.

    Honestly, if you want a TL;DR: I don't really care if Manaphy gets a suspect test, but would someone please tell me what differentiates this menace from other things that are/were deemed broken? If there's anything that "hand picks it's own checks and counters", it's Manaphy hands down. I can't even take the Lando-i suspect as seriously as I want to because when people say "gee I wonder what Lando-i's ban will do for the metagame and for all these balanced teams it's (supposedly) screwing!", all I can think of is "absolutely nothing because Manaphy does it all better!".

    Additionally, I'd love to hear from someone who actually understands and plays bulky offense in this current ORAS OU metagame about how they deal with Manaphy, other than Unaware Clef <--- Talk about centralizing, by the way.
     
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2015
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  34. Haze Victory

    Haze Victory Dem slumps..~

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    Lameflame makes some fascinating points above ,though he'll probably get offended by a group of people now who seem to have never had trouble beating Manaphy.
    However that isn't what pains me the most here,but what pains me infact is Lando-I being thrown on the suspect table immediately after a couple of guys voice it out,mainly because the tier leaders probably wanted a ban.
    With a lower usage stat than Sableye,I don't see how Lando-I is nearly as unhealthy or influential on the metagame as MSableye is.
    I'll quote my post from the past -
    In addition to that MSableye completely nullifies some very OU viable mons merely by switching into them.Ferrothorn,Skarmory,Bronzong,Chesnaught are a few I can think of,off the top of my head.And if something,I'd like to see this get a suspect testing next.
     
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  35. pokemonnerd

    pokemonnerd Only uso listens to pnerd. Devo too. Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    I'd just like to pull something from Lando-I's thread real quick, shouldn't really bring us off topic:

    We banned both Deoxys forms while they were around 2% usage and Blaziken in BW OU fell into UU before we finally got around to banning it. And no, "people forgot about it" is not an excuse to let it drop that low as it tore into OU like a 6 year old tears open presents. It doesn't matter about a pokemon's effectiveness on the ladder on a whole because a lot of the ladder, if I may be blunt, sucks ass unless you're up near or past the first 2 or 3 pages. That's consistent across every tier we have which is why I hate the usage argument. And even disregarding that you have people like me who have the devil's advocate mindset, where even if you as a leader think a pokemon's broken as hell you try and build teams without it to see how they function against it. Some pokemon just don't work out that way and need to be removed, though it's ultimately up to the people playing. Both those who post on the forums, and those who do not.

    If you're past 1400 on the ladder you're generally as "good enough" as a person who topped the ladder to really weigh in on a suspect at the end of the day, and even if you're not you may be like me who can't stand playing for hours at a time to reach a number so it barely matters anyway. And then there are the tournament players who completely blitz everyone regardless of a ladder existing. It's why special applications exist when we vote on things.

    tl;dr Please stop bringing usage into your arguments, everyone. Barring extreme usage it means absolutely nothing.
     
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  36. Haze Victory

    Haze Victory Dem slumps..~

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    Not sure if your reply is indicated towards me,but you do realize that usage rate wasn't my argument?
    Tbh I never really found Lando-I to be nearly as influential or unhealthy -(or 'restrictive on team building' being the word here)- on the meta as MSableye is as stated by my post above.
     
  37. pokemonnerd

    pokemonnerd Only uso listens to pnerd. Devo too. Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    It wasn't directed at you specifically, because it's just a recurring trend for people to fall back on high or low usage in terms of suspects. Plus I think this is what set me off on my small rant:

    But yeah, my post wasn't aimed at any one person. Just something everyone needs to keep in mind.
     
  38. Lameflame

    Lameflame Active Member

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    Not sure why I'd be offended (if that's the word you meant to use). Players who routinely use or prefer pokemon on their teams that beat Manaphy, or who play more HO than I do (I like the playstyle but it's not my go-to), probably haven't had to worry about it as much. Comically, I've actually beaten Manaphy in the hands of a high-rank ladder player before using AV Ttar, but alas, I'm getting tired of the mindgames and would really like at least one thing to semi-reliably check at least one common variant of this thing on bulky offense. Ideally I wouldn't have to change my entire team structure just to stick on a Mega Venusaur and cross my fingers about Psychic coverage.

    Well, I agree with essentially everything you said except for the fact that usage means "nothing", since it clearly means at least something. A Landorus-i suspect would have never happened during Landorus-T's several-month long reign at #1 OU usage. It just would not have occurred - I saw various requests for it here and there and they were more or less laughed off. When things become more salient on the ladder, people are suddenly a lot more concerned about their status as a suspect. Did anything honestly change for Landorus in the last month that makes it any different than the last 6 months? Clearly not, so you have to attribute people's frustration towards it to some macro-level factors. Obviously I get what you're saying -- that a pokemon's usage has zero relevance to it being broken or healthy for a tier, and that low-ladder players are a poor indicator of what should be used (and really, anything). However, if a tree falls in the middle of the forest and no one hears it, is Landorus-i really overcentralizing? Hopefully you see my point here.

    Speaking of which, I have a great example of a pokemon that was so criminally underlooked in XY and early ORAS that it dropped to 2% (I believe) in UU earlier! This pokemon wasn't even unanimously banned from UU despite being just as good as ever. Gee, I wonder which pokemon I could be discussing...

    Manaphy.
     
  39. Dr. Doom

    Dr. Doom Long time hater of stall

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    Personally I don't have an issue with Manaphy. Ferrothorn and Mega Venusaur both wall it and can cripple with their respective statuses. The CM RestTalk set is a good bulky sweeper, but it needs several boosts to be able to sweep. IMO Mega Slowbro does CM better than Manaphy as it's physically bulkier, more powerful and can't be critted. It also has STAB Psyshock in case it's drawn into a Calm Mind war.

    On another subject, Mega Sableye isn't broken. All of OU's Fairies can at the very least force it out, and the specially inclined ones (and M-Altaria that carry Heal Bell) can easily switch into it as well.

    And finally, can we please retest Deoxys-D? The metagame has moved on, we've got plenty of good Defoggers and a couple of good Spinners in Starmie and Excadrill. I really don't think it would be broken.
     
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  40. Lameflame

    Lameflame Active Member

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    Ferrothorn only wins with Power Whip and has moderate issues switching into +3 scalds, but I'm planning and open to giving it a try, thanks for the recommendation.

    I agree with your other two points on M-Sableye and DeoD, but unfortunately I think they're falling on deaf ears here at the moment.