[ORAS] ORAS OU Metagame Discussion Thread

Discussion in 'Past Gens Discussion' started by Finchinator, Nov 2, 2014.

  1. Wander

    Wander Shitty Wizard

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    That's my point, Knock Off is a great move but not the reason those Pokemon are popular. Banning Knock Off will change nothing.

    Knock Off's purpose is to reliably disable held items, it's there to check Pokemon who rely on their items to perform (Eviolite, Light Clay, etc.), it has a clearly defined purpose, just like Stealth Rocks. I can refute your point because it's bullshit.

    1. Banning Knock Off will not increase "species diversity".
    2. People do in fact innovate, experiment with different Pokemon, different sets, etc. It happens all the time, sometimes it works (Gardevoir's rise from UU, Rhyperior's recent popularity, Stallbreaker Talonflame) and other times it doesn't.
    3. The tier is called fucking OverUsed.

    This is just hilarious, nothing in this paragraph is objective. "My team of 4 non OU Pokemon doesn't work well in OU, I absolutely refuse to accept the fact that these Pokemon are not popular in OU for a reason, there must be something wrong with the metagame!"

    Banning Knock Off will not "open up" OU, as Cirno said it will at most change which species make up the 40-50 Pokemon.

    You comprehend nothing.
    [​IMG]


    Then go play UU, that's why the tiering system exists for fuck's sake.
    OU is where OverUsed Pokemon are placed, the metagame reflects that, if you want to play Pokemon who don't fit the OU meta then there are tiers where you can do that.
     
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2014
  2. Silph Co.

    Silph Co. New Member

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    Great, then test the meta without K.O. Try it just for fun. I guarantee the number of viable Pokemon goes UP. I'll bet you money. It's not even a thing to me, it should be that obvious.

    I may be new on this forum, but I am not new to battling at all. and while I don't have a plethora of advanced stats to throw at you, in my two posts I have provided PLENTY of concrete information on why you should at very least test ban Knock Off. Furthermore, I have easily provided more concrete info that you have, Wander, in your rebuttals. all you have really done is name a couple Pokemon and say, "Well actually no it won't work that way because, just no. what about Sableye." (that's you talking)

    Yes I admit to having a weakness for colorful language lacking description. But I outlined exactly what the attack does and the Pokemon in OU that are using it, and that on top of my battle experience I am very confident that a Knock Off-less OU will increase the number of viable Pokemon and simply increase diversity in general. That is based on that attack, its effect, and those many severely OU Pokemon that learn it, as well as the many non-stab UU Pokemon that learn it, though I leave them out for there are many, many. When I propose this I am only thinking about what makes a Pokemon viable. Will losing Knock Off hurt Donphan? Sure. Will it make it absolutely impossible to use in OU? Don't be silly. Now your opponent won't be knocking off your Donphan's leftovers all the time.

    What I'm saying is, if you get rid of the move in OU, you will hurt a small handful of already overused Pokemon's competitiveness, and you will immensely help many Pokemon's competitiveness. Laugh at me and say I'm wrong, fine. It seems like common sense to me, given all the conditions. Just try it and you will like it.

    And if you don't like it, well at least you will have identified a 'gear' that the tier can be set to, in a sense- kind of like how Yugioh used to alternate between a Call of the Haunted/Premature Burial/Monster Reborn ban.

    Edit: By the way, if you think my team sucks, come battle me sometime.
     
  3. Finchinator

    Finchinator IT’S FINK DUMBASS

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    We do not plan on banning or testing Knock off in the near future (not ruling it out in the long term, but for now let's focus on the potentially broken or controversial threats in ORAS OU as the metagame is unstable). All discussion on Knock off should end now.
     
  4. Silph Co.

    Silph Co. New Member

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    Great then I can discuss this absurd statement. What exactly about the ORAS OU meta is so unstable? Please. It's all the same Pokemon and movesets, with a handful of Megas sprinkled on top. I've been playing it for the last two weeks and it doesn't seem 'unstable' at all.

    Who is "we", flinchinator? I was implying this before, that some of you with a higher level on control over this server already have your mental plans made up. I knew my ban suggestion would be denied, not because it's unreasonable(because it is very reasonable to the average battler), but because it doesn't fit 'your' plans. Why do you think I came out of the gates so hard?

    Who are you working for? Who do you shape the meta for? I am NOT suggesting that we ban Stealth rock or Protean, or any of the other elements that do significantly reshape the metagame. But based on this forum's responses, it would seem that I am, like you're afraid that if we get rid of Knock Off, everyone will begin to think differently about the banning process and start suggesting that we ban this/that again.

    Honestly it just seems like you're a little intimidated by the nature of my request. Well you shouldn't be. People like using Stealth Rock and Protean and Gale Wings and those things would never ever be banned unless...
    Unless there were some new development/addition to the metagame from Gamefreak, e-hem, that made them border on broken.

    That's what this comes down to. Gamefreak boosted the attack so much, that you're quite scared to ban it because it would feel like a 'retaliation' of sorts. After all, Gamefreak fixed Mean Look-Baton Passing, they must be 'right' about this too.

    Well I guess I answered my own question. You shape the metagame for Gamefreak. Doesn't take a genius to figure that out. and that is why, despite ample evidence to the contrary, test-banning knock Off must be out-of-the-question. Because Gamefreak has built the last 3 generations on the concept of a 40-50 Pokemon OU tier, and eliminating this move will shake all of that up.

    Heck, literally everything we have banned on PO is really only a test ban, when you think about it. Because PO is where the real game designers can test their metagame.
    I will shutup and go purchase my copies of Omega Ruby and Alpha Sapphire now.
     
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  5. Dr. Doom

    Dr. Doom Long time hater of stall

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    OK, do you even know what the fuck you're talking about any more? How the hell is Finch "shaping the tier for Game Freak?" Game Freak create the Pokémon and moves, we figure out how best to use them. This programme is in no way affiliated with Game Freak or Nintendo so what would even be the benefit of him and the other tier leaders "shaping the tier for Game Freak?" Your arguments for banning Knock Off have been refuted numerous times, so please just stop. For the record, Little Cup did a testban of Knock Off earlier in the year. This is what happened http://pokemon-online.eu/threads/testban-knock-off.27008/.

    Now onto something else, at some point I would like to see Shaymin-S getting a retest. Yes I know it's fast and powerful, and that Serene Grace Air Slash is a bitch, but I think it would have enough checks/counters/issues to not be broken. SubSeed has terrible coverage and can't touch Ferrothorn, Life Orb has major 4mss: if it lacks Synthesis it gets worn down very quickly, if it lacks Hidden Power Ice it can't touch Dragonite if it lacks Hidden Power Fire it can't touch Ferrothorn or Skarmory. Its extreme frailty also means most priority moves 2HKO, and it can't switch into anything but Ground moves. Thoughts?
     
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  6. Silph Co.

    Silph Co. New Member

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    It's a Knock Off conspiracy ;). Also, Little Cup is way different than OU. I'll quit the rant though because I think I've made enough people aware of the situation.

    As for Shaymin-S, Ice Shard users keep him in check, and like you said it can't do much with Ferrothorn. If only there was maybe... 1 and 1/2 more decent Ice shard users that could run in OU.
     
  7. Oh So Penspin

    Oh So Penspin Hail RNGesus, our Lord and Saviour!

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    [sarcasm] Oh my god you are so right! Gamefreak changed everything and now the metagame is soooo physical based. I suppose we ban ALL physical attacks, so that the usual OU mons are not viable anymore and that we get a completely new tier with other viable Pokemon :D [/sarcasm]

    The thing is this: you accuse people (poor Finch) that they shape the tier to their will. You're doing the exact same thing: You want Knock Off banned (which is a valid opinion, although I don't agree with it) but as soon as people disagree (which is their right), you start acting like a child because not everyone supports you. It's good that you voice your thoughts, but don't expect that everyone shares your point of view.

    As for Shaymin-S: I think it's still too much for OU to handle, but that's only based on personal feeling. Retesting it wouldn't hurt I think, although I think other mons (Genesect I'm looking at you) are "less broken" in OU than Shaymin-S.
     
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  8. Purpleseamonkey

    Purpleseamonkey PO Alt: y0

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    i would like to first of all disagree with a shaymin retest because the ability to hold and item with that speed and spcA is something we rarely see in the ou meta. I think as we proved before shaymin is practically unwallable with seedflare and has great coverage and flinching bs with airslash and a superb coverage move in earth power. All of these characteristics make shaymin a mon that will unbalance almost any metagame because it would simply function amazing on most teams (and take up no mega slot) nomatter how many talonflames or chanseys or ferrothorns roamed around.

    Yo yo this might be a little early for you all to hear this but,
    how about MDiancie tho?

    From the outset when i saw diancie's stats i was excited to use this thing and knew it would be ou material, what i didnt know is how good it would end up being.
    What it does:
    Rocks!
    Diancie @ Diancite Lv. 100 -- Clear Body

    Nature: Naive/Timid - EVs: 252 SAtk / 252 Spd

    • Earth Power
    • Stealth Rock
    • Moonblast
    • Diamond Storm/ Hidden Power
    Diancie is unique because it is the most defensive user of magic bounce with great fairy typing and 50/110/110. These combination of traits make Dianical once of the best stealthrock setters in ORAS beating lead talonflame and preventing opponents from setting up rocks themselves. In addition to this MDianical speed and typing make it extremely hard for any defogger to even think of throwing one up

    Ohkos all defoggers after rocks (sans skarm)
    4 Atk Diancie Diamond Storm vs. 252 HP / 168+ Def Zapdos: 284-336 (73.9 - 87.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
    252 SpA Diancie Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Latias: 288-342 (95.6 - 113.6%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
    252 SpA Diancie Moonblast vs. 248 HP / 108 SpD Mandibuzz: 338-402 (79.9 - 95%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
    252 SpA Diancie Moonblast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Latios: 336-396 (111.2 - 131.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    252 SpA Diancie Hidden Power Fire vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Mega Scizor: 304-360 (88.6 - 104.9%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
    252 SpA Diancie Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Skarmory: 204-242 (61 - 72.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

    Ohkos and outspeeds exca
    252 SpA Diancie Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Excadrill: 326-384 (90.3 - 106.3%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO

    Beats heatran (who fails to set up rocks!)
    252 SpA Diancie Earth Power vs. 248 HP / 220+ SpD Heatran: 328-388 (85.1 - 100.7%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
    0 SpA Heatran Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Diancie: 150-178 (62.2 - 73.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery


    Offense!
    Diancie @ Diancite Lv. 100 -- Clear Body
    Nature: Timid - EVs: 4 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd

    • Hidden Power
    • Calm Mind
    • Earth Power
    • Moonblast
    Diancie @ Diancite Lv. 100 -- Clear Body

    Nature: Rash - EVs: 64 Atk / 252 SAtk / 192 Spd

    • Hidden Power
    • Rock Polish
    • Moonblast
    • Diamond Storm
    Diancie has a sky high attack and spcA which makes having a hard counter almost impossible.
    252+ Atk Diancie Diamond Storm vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 279-328 (39.6 - 46.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
    But despite this it's poor physical movepool make running significant investment in attack foolish so chansey is a good check to most special sets (cm needs to be at +3 to 2hko with moonblast after rocks). Having one commonly used counter does not make dianicie balanced in ou. With base 160 and 110 speed diancie runs a very effective cm set that 2hkos most of the teir at +1 and has amazing coverage.
    +1 252 SpA Diancie Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W: 256-303 (106.2 - 125.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    +1 252 SpA Diancie Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-T: 327-385 (102.5 - 120.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    +1 252 SpA Diancie Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 352-416 (100 - 118.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    Rock polish sets are also becoming quite common to beat offensive checks such as greeninja scarf exca/rotom and functions well because it resists common dark and flying priority.

    Conclusion: Although diancie is susceptible to the common scizor, when supported properly with magnezone and/or rocky helmet it becomes too much to check both offensively and defensively. Diancie can effortlessly set up rocks while supporting its team and keeping up great offencive pressure, or sweep less balanced teams with cm or rockpolish for stall and hyperoffence respectively. Its combination of high powered attacks, high utility ability, good coverage make it suspect in the ou environment.
     
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2014
  9. Silph Co.

    Silph Co. New Member

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    Yup, I have my own agenda in wanting Knock Off gone. But I have also learned to deal with it in current play(without changing my team. Think lots of switches...). and I still haven't changed my opinion.

    You may disagree, but I think in terms of max power + incredible effect, Knock Off is pretty much the ultimate Pokemon move. Really. That's why the best teams in OU MUST use it and/or counter it. If you don't consider KO when making your OU team, you won't ever win an OU tournament in the present meta.

    I would like to hear an argument as to why Knock is not overplayed. Clearly it is. And clearly it reshapes the whole tier. It's just getting old. What do you expect me to do, run two Mega stones ?? Run Pokemon without items? No.

    and I don't take anything back about Gamefreak because they could have given it less of a boost. I blame them 70%. And I blame generic teambuilders the other 30% for not using the other half of their brain and building some novel teams. Its "OU" I get it. That's just a name to me.
     
  10. Finchinator

    Finchinator IT’S FINK DUMBASS

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    I already clearly stated that Knock Off wasn't on the agenda of Pokemon Online's ORAS OU tier, so I think you should drop it. Regardless, I'll appease you and respond once more and then any future posts on the subject will be prone to deletion and infraction depending on the context and quality of the posts.

    I don't care if Knock Off is the "ultimate pokemon move" or the most irrelevant pokemon move out there; if it isn't deemed broken in OU, there's no reason to do anything with it. The rest of this post will explain why it isn't broken (which is basically the next large paragraph).

    The best teams in OU MUST counter a lot of things; sure, Knock Off is one of them. The same can be said for the plethora of viable pokemon in OU; the best teams have a counter to them. Knock Off has the utility of ridding the pokemon it hits of their item while doing a fair amount of damage at the same time, which makes it a great move and Knock Off finds its way onto many viable pokemon's sets (Landorus-T, Scizor, Bisharp, Azumarill, Conkeldurr, Gallade, Weavile, Crawdaunt, Gliscor, Mew, Landorus-I, etc. (in no specific order) all use it somewhat commonly). With this being said, the abundance of pokemon using Knock Off and the utility it has doesn't mean it's broken. None of the aforementioned users of it are anywhere near broken and while the overall concept of knocking off an item restricts gameplay, it doesn't do so to a game breaking extent in the ORAS OU metagame. Although a mere resistance isn't always the best solution to checking or countering Knock Off (some mega evolutions who cannot lose items and physical tanks who sponge knock offs without being too crippled by losing their item can also work), the following pokemon resist Knock Off and aren't too frail: Azumarill, Bisharp, Tyranitar, Conkeldurr, Clefable, Altaria, Diancie, Keldeo, Terrakion, Sylveon, Mandibuzz, Klefki, Chesnaught, etc. The point is that it isn't a challenge to "check" or "counter" Knock Off (doing so on every team is quite simple) as a move itself and none of the pokemon that use it commonly are broken, as said above, so therefore it probably isn't broken. Add this to the fact that the utility it gives is noteworthy, but not game breaking either, and you can draw the overall conclusion that Knock Off isn't broken in ORAS OU.

    o_k
     
  11. Kid Flash

    Kid Flash Fastest Boy Alive

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    Can we discuss mega lopunny now?
    135 attack/speed is certainly nothing to scuff at, and it has no impunity to spam high jump kick with nothing immune thanks to scrappy.
    It also has a plethora of switch in opportunitys (or atleast against stall) on expected thunderwaves (Limber), and ghost type attacks.

    I feel SubWorkUp Lopunny is too dominant atm, +1 High Jump Kick destroys skarmory, then return destroys most fighting and sub protects against priority from Keldurr and pinsir while lopunny utterly destroys them with return, hjk, or even drain punch.

    Another viable set I see people using is an all out attacker set with Hjk,Return, filler, healing wish (which goes nicely before lopunny dies wiit it's massive speed)

    Heck some checks it an get past with an sub, lando I believe is 2HKO'd at +1 by return.

    Imo, Lopunny wrekts on stall teams and if it gets one chance to set up a work up, it can destroy ho or bulky offencive teams.
    This is ban worthy
     
  12. Cameltoed

    Cameltoed Excadrill gira

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    Defensive counters/checks for Lopunny
    Bulky Landorus-T (Ice Punch makes it a check)
    Rotom-W (as shaky check)
    Heatran (only with Protect but so shaky)
    Ferrothorn (just checkin returns with Iron Barbs + Protect)
    Skarmory (even with Shed shell for magnes)
    Slowbro (Mega and standard)
    Clefable defensive
    Gliscor (Ice Punch makes it a check)
    Defensive Mega Venusaur
    Defensive Mew
    Chesnaught


    Offensive answers for Lopunny:
    Scarf Landorus-T (check, with Superpower OHKOs)
    Talonflame (revengekills)
    Breloom (revengekills)
    Scarf Latios (check and kill w/Psyshock)
    Rush Excadrill (check and kill)
    Mega Pinsir (revengekills)
    Mega Beedrill (almost OHKO)
    Mega Aerodactyl (revengekills plus shaky check of return)
    Mega Alakazam (revengekills)
    Scarf Keldeo
    Scarf Terrakion (check)

    well, Mega Lopunny is definitely a very cool Pokèmon, with a great antioffensive power, but the incapability to get through walls. Ok, Scrappy is cool cuz ghosts aren't an answer to HJK anymore, but many other mon can threat and cripple the bunny (paralyze, burn, kill, protect on HJK, etc)
    I don't see it deserves to go at the moment, I mean things like Mega Slowbro or Metagross are really more toxic

    also it doesn't have the space of setting up. With Work Up / Power-Up Punch, it has to relinquish to coverage move (Ice Punch) which makes it weak to bulky grounds, or Fake out which makes it weak to priorities stuff plus difficulty in mega evolving, or any other support move (Sub? Healing Wish? etc)
     
    Last edited: Dec 14, 2014
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  13. GerMoj

    GerMoj Victory Is Ours Clan Leader

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    With Greninja's ban, Lopunny isn't actually as threatening as it was with the return of the fairies. Clefable, Sylveon and Diancie can take a hit and retaliate, acting as effective checks. Bulky Mega Latias also evades de 2HKO from Return (it hurts a little more than Ice Punch).

    Mentioning Mega Diancie, I agree that it is very versatile with mixed, Rock Polish and Calm Mind sets. Mixed sets can lure out Chansey after some damage and then proceed to sweep. Rock Polish is an excellent cleaner as it won't be outsped unless the opponent carries SE priority and CM can break many teams without appropriate counters. Also I've seen some Double Dance variants, but are countered depending on its moves.

    It is checked by Metagross, one of the most prominent threats in the OU meta, I think Azumarril can check it too and so it does Scizor and Landorus or Magnezone Scarf (bar Rock Polish sets). On the counter side, I think Ferrothorn, Bronzong, Specially Defensive Mega Scizor, maybe Unaware Clefable can handle it.

    The great issue with Diancie is that it hits really hard, sits in a cool speed tier and it has a good ability, meaning that it can't be worned down passively meaning that some stall teams may have trouble with it.
    Right now I really can't call it broken, but I think it wouldn't harm to have an eye on it, just in case.
     
  14. Finchinator

    Finchinator IT’S FINK DUMBASS

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    Honestly, we are at a point where nothing stands out as exceedingly broken or controversial, but the metagame isn't looking great, eiter (I'd call ORAS OU a "shit meta" atm).

    Right now, I can draw a couple parallels between XY OU during Aegi+Mawile meta to the current meta.

    First and foremost, both of these metas had limited and match-up dependent, but effective stall variants. In AegiMaw XY meta, it was: MegaVenu/Tran/Quag/Chansey/Skarm/(Clef or filler) while in current ORAS meta, it is: Ches/MegaSab/Quag/Chansey/(Skarmis often seen, but a couple options)/(filler like Heatran or Clef).

    In AegiMaw XY meta, playstyles where really segregated and this segregation created a controversial limitation in teambuilding (Aegislash was a contributing factor to this and it's eventual ban attested to that). In the current meta, stall is certainty distinguished from offense and there are more than enough boundaries and restrictions to teambuilding.

    Does this mean that something must be done to fix the metagame? Not necessarily. However, if there is a plausible line of action, this may be the time to consider it.

    While I don't entirely stand by the notion that Mega Sableye is a textbook broken pokemon, I can certainly see someone making a reasonable case for it being ban worthy and I also believe it is a prime cause for the metagame being poor currently. This could just be me overestimating its effect on things and how dynamic it is, but I'd like to hear some discussion on Mega Sableye. The main set is Wisp+CM mega while builds with KnockOff+Taunt+Wisp are also seen, but not as prevalent.

    TL;DR: Discuss mega Sableye
    Discuss any causes for why the metagame may not be too good atm and if you think anything is ban worthy or suspect worthy

    edit: I would like to note that there is more variation in some semi-stall and slow paced bulky-Offensive teams nowadays, which provides some reason to be enthusiastic about the current metagame, but I don't think its substantial enough to amount to much in terms of this discussion, but it can pose as a check to my argument above.
     
  15. Weavile

    Weavile Phoenix

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    Now I don't think anyone expected Mega Sab to be on the chopping block when it was first announced. Isn't that fun.

    Mega Sab provides stall with a stable win condition, its typing bulk and more importantly its ability allow it to set up CMs on opposing fat teams with relative ease and it doesn't lose to stallbreakers due to Magic Bounce. It's exactly the Pokémon stall has been looking for and now it has it, it has become a more reliable and easier play-style to use. It can't be statused, it can't be phased, it can't be taunted and it's extremely difficult to kill offensively without some true heavy hitters or something like CM Clefable or Diancie.

    That said those heavy hitters and these two fairies are decent in the meta and are lying around. but stall has easy methods of dealing with most of them except CM Magic Guard Clef n_n. Mega Sab itself isn't broken but it patches up the former weaknesses in the stall play-style so efficiently that I believe it has become unhealthy for the meta and turned it into a repetitive shitfest of the same cookie cutter teams to an extent I'm not fond of.
     
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  16. Oh So Penspin

    Oh So Penspin Hail RNGesus, our Lord and Saviour!

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    MegaSab is definitely a defining force on stall. It had an amazing typing which, combined with Magic Bounce, lets it beat a lot of the popular XY stallbreakers. Furthermore, stall teams are less Defog reliant now that MegaSab can prevent hazards.

    However, Scald (and Lava Plume to a lesser extent) is a common move and a burn really hampers MegaSab's longevity (spellcheck on this?). Most stall teams carry a cleric though, so this problem isn't too big. MegaSab is also very slow, which means it often had to take 2 hits before it's able to heal. There are some good Faries in OU as well, which can all kill MegaSab or use it as setup fodder.

    All in all, while I think MegaSab is a very good mon for stall, I don't think it's broken yet.
     
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  17. GerMoj

    GerMoj Victory Is Ours Clan Leader

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    Hi everybody :) I'll give my two cents in the Mega-Eye matter.

    Back then in the XY OU meta, stall was very different from what it was in the BW2 era. Back in BW2, stall had to rely on hazards and Perish Song to beat enemy teams. In XY OU thus came to an end because defog came into play, making the hazard stacking strategies far to weak to the current meta as the power creep (megas) + defog made it very difficult to stall teams to sacrifice turns just for hazards. Stall was blessed though with Mega-Saur, fairies and a more viable Chansey. This way stall needed to adapt to be a little stronger as passive damage alone wasn't aggressive enough to take down the offensive XY OU meta. Venusaur, Suicune and even Charizard X were the hard hitters in such teams.
    With ORAS came Mega-Sableye and Mega Slowbro, to great additions to stall teams as now they have a reliable way to boost and become a winning condition while giving utility before mega evolving. Slowbro works well as a pivot through the match thanks to regenerator and Sableye works as the common annoyer it was.
    Regarding of mega Sableye, any team stall team lacking a fairy type might be on trouble because even when Chansey evades the 3hko (I think) from a highly boosted dark pulse, the combination of WoW + Chanseys passivity (she can't touch it) doesn't make her a counter. Mega Sabeleye also can abuse its ability before going mega, using prankster to burn and survive an attack from Azumarrill and Lopunny. Also Sabeleye's team tend to be stall natures so cleric support will be there for Sableye.
    Sableye can't be worn passiveley due to magic bounce, making it a good answer to opposing stall teams. This new kind of stall can be compared to the Gen 2 stall where a last stand Pokemon (snorlax) could make the difference late game. I'm not saying that Sableye centralizes the way Snorlax did in it's golden days, just saying that it is a great mon in the meta right now but not entirely broken.
    Now, let's see Sabeleye's counters: Clefable makes a good counter either with Magic Guard or Unaware as Magic Guard lets Clefable boost without burn punishment and Unaware make Sableye's boost ineffective. I think Snarl Sableye can force them out maybe by lowering their attack at the cost of power, but it yet has to be tested.
    Diancie can come into Sableye and threaten it by boosting or just doing some straight attacking.
    Sylveon and some variants of Altaria (Mixed, Special, Refresh and Facade) can also take on Sabeleye at early boosts.
    I think Quagsire can switch and attempt to burn but otherwise it doesn't threat Sabeleye.
    Offensivele, Sabeleye has a tougher time as it needs two or more turns of boosting to avoid the KO from heavy hitters. HJK from Lopunny really scares him. SPECS Keldeo and Latios can take it down, Charizard is also a good Pokemon to take down Sableye. Sun boosted fire blast and DD can take advantage of Sabeleye.
    In the playstyle matchup dept. Sabeleye works great against stall and balance as the usual stallbreakers they carry are shut down by sableye (taunt users or trick users mainly). And offense cares a little less (but it doesn't mean they have an easy time on Sableye).
    In my opinion, Sableye isn't really broken, but it is incredibly annoying forcing users to do gimmicky things to Stop him such as Skill Swap and defensive Mega Gyarados just to stop it even in high ladder (talking about some 1350+ rank players). Right now I'm not on either side of pro or anti suspect, I just reckon Sableye is a great staple to stall and a proper discussion might be useful.
     
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  18. Cameltoed

    Cameltoed Excadrill gira

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    I don't have too much to say about Mega Sableye that would be widely different from what was already told from other users, but here are my 2 cents;
    this mon is riding high due to many reasons like:
    1- it's cool, prankster pre-evo + good defensive stats + typing make it cool stall stuff
    2- its a new toy from oras so hype
    3- (and most important) stall teams in XY were threatened with usual stallbreaker mons like Mew, Gliscor, other tauntthings (now weak to MBounce), very powerful physical wallbreakers (WoW prankster) and special threats (that can be, in some way, fought after many CMs).

    Obviously Sableye can't be an answer for everything, and stuff like Mega Gardevoir is the proof of this, but surely it's an unexpected element added in the development of stall playstyle, so at the moment it seems overpowered due to lack of answers to it. Only the time will balance things, like that happened for Mew that wasnt used too much until Aegi-ban and it needed much time to be one of primary ways to kill stall.

    So I say a suspect of MegaSab atm is too premature because it's not that overcentralizing (or better, it's not much more overcentralizing than any other new mega that actually works on this meta --> look at MegaGross, MegaGallade, MegaLopunny, MegaBeedrill etc), it's not so "invincible" (tho only 1 weakness + cool def stats + recoverCM etc...), it doesnt have the time yet to make the metagame adapts at it. So just keep it calm for a while, if there won't be enough wallbreaking/stallbreaking mons that can go through it, so it will deserve a suspect. Otherwise, just no ^O^

    ps: this looks like Aegislash's situation (obviously aegi is way more stronger than sab), and it needed its time before it was declared definitely toxic for the metagame... and not uniformly, it's still discussed as ban.. so just sit and watch what will happen, imo
     
    Last edited: Dec 20, 2014
  19. OUAzumarill

    OUAzumarill Active Member

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    I'd have to agree fully with Cameltoed. It's too early in the metagame to know if the pokemon is truly broken. Not only does it have the novelty factor working in its favor, but there's also the fact that the metagame itself is new, unstable, and likely to evolve pretty fast.

    On a slightly related note, it's really ironic that one of the few pokes that theoretically could prevent it from being broken is its rival Mega Mawile. It'd be even more funny if Sableye joins it as an Uber.
     
  20. Edna

    Edna Chasing the Dragon Forum Moderator Forum Moderator

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    Hey,
    I do believe we need to make something about Speed Boost/Scolipiede, even after Baton Pass nerf to 2 users, people can still manage to place a Dual Screen ( with Azelf, Latios, Whimsicott) then proceed to set up with scolipiede and Espeon.
    I also believe you won't run in all your teams a Hazer ( anyway, nearly none can really haze in the meta).
    Being very difficult to break those teams, I find them kinda uncompetitive, annoying to face ( I believe even the BP user ain't having fun), and easy to break the ladder.
    Thus, I'd like to know if there is a chance to suspect Scoli/Speed boost in general.
    Thanks for reading.
     
    Purpleseamonkey likes this.
  21. Cameltoed

    Cameltoed Excadrill gira

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    Why suspecting Scolipede if it's not the problem at all?
    In the past there were problems with Smeargle and Geomancy/CottonGuard Pass

    now assuming priorities exist (especially for offensive teams) other than phazers (and roar heatran/whirlwind skarmory/etc are not that uncommon) I don't think Scolipass is the evil of current metagame but if you really want to go through this way I suggest you to propose the ban on the move Baton Pass which is the one and only issue
     
  22. Edna

    Edna Chasing the Dragon Forum Moderator Forum Moderator

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    Offensive teams can't get trough Scoli+Espeon.
    So you have multiple choices:
    -banning BP
    -Banning Speed boost
    - Complex ban, no espeon in a team with bp

    Nobody is prepared anymore for this, and I believe it has an impact for the meta
     
  23. GerMoj

    GerMoj Victory Is Ours Clan Leader

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    Hi there, let's remember a few thing back then in the BP Suspect.
    -First of all, offense had the better time against BP chains as the could earyl shut down the chain before any significant boosts were made. Right now, for offense natured teams it is easier to deal with the chains as they don't have to muscle through many of its counters, just scolipede and Espeon (both of which aren't the bulkier pokemon there).

    The assets offense have are the following:
    -Strong Priority
    Pokemon Such as Scizor, Talonoflame, Azumarrill, Diggersby (rare) can easily take down ScoliPass before they do nithing
    -Strong Attackers
    The New Megas such as Metagross and Gallade and also classics like Charizard can take down the pass before anything important becomos too boosted. Specs Keldeo can make a dent early game, and CB-Tar can take down the core switching into Espeon (Stone Edge hurts both of them really good so you don't have to predict the baton).
    -Taunt mons:
    Yeah, Magic Coat screw this off. Thundurus is a good user as even when it is taunted back if Espeon switches, Espon won't be liking any of Thundys attacks.

    I've also seen you telling that dual screens easily make for the lack of bulk, well, Defog is everywhere so the dual screens are easily removable after taking down Azelf and Cottonee (yeah, I´ve seen those teams on the ladder too).

    BP is not the cancer it was when full chains were made, right now it is a perfectly healthy strategy as it requieres heavy teambuilding to make a good ScoliPass team and they are far from overpowered. Now even Stall teams can handle them very well
     
  24. Sakuya Izayoi

    Sakuya Izayoi love to hate

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    i would like to bring up a discussion about unbanning aegislash to OU.

    look at the current ranked usage stats for PO OU atm:
    Heatran 24.9108 2803
    Landorus-T 22.3779 2518
    Rotom-W 19.6407 2210

    There is a reason why all 3 of the above mentioned pokemon have significantly higher usage stats compared to other pokemon, all three are the /only/ good pivots left in the tier and also usually glues to common bulky offense/balance teams. this basically means, if you aren't running stall/semi stall, you are almost definitely going to end up at least 1 of those 3 mons as you don't have other options to deal with potent threats such as talon/keld/ferro/excadrill etc and these threats are too many and too strong atm. As much as I hate to say it, the game is currently team matchup reliant in a sense, in every OU team atm there will always be huge gaping holes because of the lack of strong pivots. Regarding the above quote taken from the aegislash suspect discussion, I think looking back at it now Aegislash may have limited teambuilding and overcentralised the metagame, but it overcentralised the metagame in a good way and without Aegislash you now have a shitton more holes to fill. Aegislash caused a lot of otherwise very viable OU pokemon such as Starmie and Celebi to not see usage, but that was because Aegislash was the literal perfect pivot. Aegislash did what Landorus-T did, except it was an incredible pokemon in its own right. Many people wanted to ban Aegislash initially because it would bring more versatility into the game, but after seeing how the meta has progressed it's pretty clear that versatility isn't always a good thing. Sometimes we need a strong pivot like Aegislash to prevent many threats from being viable in OU, which allows a meta that is less dictated on team match-up and more on teambuilding and player skill.

    At this point we got nothing to lose, we don't know how the metagame would fare if Aegislash gets unbanned, would it be a broken mon like both deoxys formes in XY, or would it be like Garchomp in BW2, a pokemon which I believe nobody would think it would be broken even up to now. Much like the kyu b unban in bw2, if we take the inniative to unban first, perhaps smogon may also follow us and unban Aegislash.

    also before anybody posts the 50/50 argument is stupid as fuck, despite Aegislash leaving the metagame after Aegislash's departure still had plenty of 50/50s so Aegislash didn't even affect it one bit.

    edit:

    dug a little deeper and did more research just to solidify my argument a little more, here are the combined usages for smogon feb:

    Three-month statistics
    Three month usage = (20*LastMonth+3*OneMonthAgo+1*TwoMonthsAgo)/24
    Code (text):
    1.  
    2. Three-month usage for Standard OU
    3. + ---- + ------------------ + ------- +
    4. | Rank | Pokemon            | Percent |
    5. + ---- + ------------------ + ------- +
    6. | 1    | Landorus-Therian   | 31.581% |
    7. | 2    | Heatran            | 22.858% |
    8. | 3    | Rotom-Wash         | 20.049% |
    9. | 4    | Keldeo             | 18.745% |
    10. | 5    | Latios             | 18.607% |
    11. | 6    | Ferrothorn         | 17.763% |
    12. | 7    | Bisharp            | 17.191% |
    13. | 8    | Talonflame         | 15.430% |
    14. | 9    | Clefable           | 14.665% |
    15. | 10   | Latias             | 14.588% |
    16. | 11   | Scizor             | 14.388% |
    17. | 12   | Azumarill          | 14.347% |
    18. | 13   | Metagross          | 12.906% |
    19. | 14   | Slowbro            | 10.789% |
    20. | 15   | Garchomp           | 10.622% |
    21. | 16   | Gengar             | 10.561% |
    22. | 17   | Tyranitar          | 10.494% |
    23. | 18   | Excadrill          |  9.975% |
    24. | 19   | Thundurus          |  9.639% |
    25. | 20   | Skarmory           |  9.116% |
    26. | 21   | Charizard          |  8.872% |
    27. | 22   | Lopunny            |  8.451% |
    28. | 23   | Landorus           |  7.756% |
    29. | 24   | Chansey            |  7.378% |
    30. | 25   | Breloom            |  7.363% |
    31. | 26   | Gyarados           |  7.345% |
    32. | 27   | Magnezone          |  7.274% |
    33. | 28   | Sableye            |  6.876% |
    34. | 29   | Conkeldurr         |  6.842% |
    35. | 30   | Gliscor            |  6.658% |
    36. | 31   | Sylveon            |  6.521% |
    37. | 32   | Dragonite          |  5.759% |
    38. | 33   | Greninja           |  5.741% |
    39. | 34   | Gardevoir          |  5.493% |
    40. | 35   | Altaria            |  5.263% |
    41. | 36   | Venusaur           |  4.938% |
    42. | 37   | Raikou             |  4.883% |
    43. | 38   | Mew                |  4.869% |
    44. | 39   | Zapdos             |  4.842% |
    45. | 40   | Diancie            |  4.469% |
    46. | 41   | Manectric          |  4.380% |
    47. | 42   | Gallade            |  4.378% |
    48. | 43   | Mamoswine          |  4.301% |
    49. | 44   | Celebi             |  4.294% |
    50. | 45   | Starmie            |  4.111% |
    51. | 46   | Gothitelle         |  3.755% |
    52. | 47   | Manaphy            |  3.733% |
    53. | 48   | Kyurem-Black       |  3.702% |
    54. | 49   | Mandibuzz          |  3.612% |
    55. | 50   | Jirachi            |  3.475% |

    Just to show how dominant pivots are, the combined usage of incredible wallbreakers such as Landorus-I/Gallade/Keldeo, the literal face of stall itself, Mega Sableye, potent stallbreakers such as Mega Gardevoir/Manaphy, and the jack of all trades Mega Metagross have LESS usage than all 3 pivots combined. I found Smogon usage more reliable because there are more sample count (users playing on the ladder) and both simulators have the exact same tiering metagame anyway.
     
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2015
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  25. Finchinator

    Finchinator IT’S FINK DUMBASS

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    First off, basing an argument on usage statistics is not advised, but I'll cut you some slack here as you're incorporating the current state of the metagame and your opinion into it. Regardless, I am going to have to partially disagree with you here. There has always been a glut of Rotom-W usage in OU on the ladder (even dating back to the days BW1 OU, but this still stands true in XY and ORAS) and trying to use this as a means of backing an argument to retest Aegislash is not going to cut it. Rotom-W is a very easy pokemon for a novice or intermediate player to slap onto almost any team so that they have many things loosely checked although this isn't actually an effective way of teambuilding because Rotom-W lacks the longterm survivability it needs and there are plenty of case-by-case alternatives. I am not saying it shouldn't see any usage at all, as that is far from the truth, but fact of the matter is that Rotom-W's usage on the ladder is far from being indicative of anything and it's not something to be using in any context whatsoever. This same fallacy with usage can be applied to just about anything as ladder stats are inherently flawed, but Rotom-W is a prime suspect of this due to the nature of ladder players/teams historically.

    Next off, I'd like to refute a couple of claims you presented in this section of your post. First off, it is not true that "all three are the /only/ good pivots left in the tier". The common pivots (a pokemon that has the defensive potential to withstand common attacks of some sort while maintaining the offensive presence to keep momentum up and/or do a significant amount of damage) in OU currently are: SDef SD Gliscor, Heatran, Landorus-T, Slowbro, Latias, Rotom-W, Tornadus-T, (some variants of) Mega Scizor, and (some variants of) Mega Altaria. A couple of these may be debatable and a couple pokemon I failed to list also may be detectable, but this generally is accurate. The fact of the matter is that while Heatran, Landorus-T, and Rotom-W are three noteworthy pivots, they are not the "only good" ones and their ability to check certain things is still competed with by other pokemon (i.e: Regenerator Slowbro sees a comparable amount of usage to Rotom-W on the higher ladder or at a higher level of play. Both of these are able to potentially cripple the opponent, sponge hits from a partially overlapping group of physical attackers, and not kill momentum). This is why using usage statistics as the foundation of an argument is faulty and generally misleading. Second of all, yout claim that "this basically means, if you aren't running stall/semi stall, you are almost definitely going to end up at least 1 of those 3 mons" is not true, either. To tackle this point, I will go pokemon-by-pokemon for the three you honed in on. Heatran, while being a solid special tank that does provide Stealth Rock, Taunt, Toxic, etc. is not mandatory on offensive teams. Mega Metagross, Clefable, Ferrothorn, Mega Gardevoir, Bisharp, Tyranitar, Jirachi, and others are capable of checking the Latis, which is a key part of Heatran's niche, while plenty of pokemon, such as the aforementioned Rotom-W and Slowbro as well as Tyranitar and others can check things like CB Talonflame. I can go through every reason a team can fit Heatran on and pin-point alternatives and you may see some overlap in the alternatives, leading to the point that Heatran is not a necessary pokemon to use on offensive teams and the playstyle is more versatile than you give it credit for. Rotom-W, the next pokemon, as I said before sees competition from things like Slowbro on the defensive end. In addition to this, Rotom-W is a very short-term solution to quite a number of threats, which may be nice for some teams, but it's never seen as a full-stop to most pokemon and lots of teams can use something other than Rotom-W with minimal structural changes to the team as a whole. Landorus-T is actually the single best pivot, if one must be chosen, in the metagame and that's because it's a feasible check to so many things while providing momentum and rocks or a scarf depending on the set you use. LandoT's usage on the ladder and in tournaments has skyrocketed since the end of the DeoSharp era and there's not much to it besides the fact that it's inherently good in the metagame. I do agree that it is very easy to slap this thing onto an offensive team, but it still isn't mandatory and freeing Aegislash won't make it used any less than it currently is, so this is a moot point if anything. Moreover, while I understand that from the surface and usage stats the current metagame trends may seem a tad repetitive and unhealthy, that is far from the truth and while ORAS OU may not be a solid metagame, this wouldn't be the ideal solution.

    You're essentially saying that it makes teambuilding more convenient with Aegislash in the tier and we should disregard the immense downside of unbanning it for the sake of building offensive teams easier. I don't think that this is the way to approach tiering and I certainly know that this won't be the way it is done as long as I am leading ORAS OU. Another thing is that you are assuming that the level of teambuilding is poor in most of your argument when the fact of the matter is that a well-constructed balanced team may not cover everything perfectly, but it can certainly avoid having "huge gaping holes" and being screwed over my match-up barring few cases (the same cannot be said for stall or some hyper offense, but these variants are historically more reliant on match-up and this stays true in most competitive metagames).

    Never has anyone ever retested something for the sake of doing it, like you suggest we do. There is always a factor that provokes it. For example, Sand Veil being banned provoked the retest of Garchomp in BW2 and the unstable nature of the early BW2 metagame (think back to when it had Genesect and Tornadus-T, for those of you who played back then) provoked the retest of Kyurem-B in early BW2.


    Once again, ladder statistics are borderline meaningless to me and I don't see the point in using them with as much emphasis as you are without an excess of supporting arguments and substance added into your post.

    I don't believe that anything will be retested in the near future ass adding something for little-to-no reason to a currently unstable metagame won't solve the problem; banning something from the metagame is the solution. Previously, Mega Metagross and Mega Sableye have been brought up. I think the former of those two, Metagrossite, could be a potential suspect, so let's steer direction in this direction as opposed to the direction it's currently being steered in.

    P.S: I know most of you won't read DN's post or my post (while maybe slapping a like onto the side you support or skimming briefly), but if you wish to take a serious position in PO tiering then I advise reading posts on matters that interest you from here on out and leaving your own opinion if you feel up to it.
     
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  26. Cameltoed

    Cameltoed Excadrill gira

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    I agree with Finchinator, I think that unbanning Aegislash won't be the ideal solution for this metagame, as troubles caused by it won't be solved and it could still have the same toxic influence on the metagame. Ok it will make MegaGross really weak to it but not MegaBleye, also all the metagame will have to adapt to it like in XY times and it honestly sucks.
    It'd better like to see Metagrossite and (especially) Sablenite suspected
    Extreme Lando-T usage is solved by bringing Gliscor (even SDef) but it seems that ladder players still have to understand this XD
     
  27. E.T.

    E.T. Random Slowpoke Super Moderator Server Administrator Articles Leader Super Moderator Server Administrator Articles Leader

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    I don't play OU very often, but I have enough experience with Mega Metagross to think that it deserves a suspect. It has a good attack stat (base 145), decent bulk (base 80/150/110), and good speed (base 110). Its ability Tough Claws boosts most of its viable attacks as well. Meteor Mash and Zen Headbutt are excellent STABs with the former having a 20% chance to boost its attack one stage and the latter having a 20% chance to cause a flinch. What makes Megagross so good imo is its ability to threaten potential checks with the proper coverage move. Hammer Arm, while it does lower its speed, allows it to beat things like Ferrothorn and Skarmory (as long as it lacks Rocky Helmet). Grass Knot also gets the Tough Claws boost and can allow Megagross to 2HKO a lot of the bulky waters that try to check it such as Slowbro. Megagross can also wipe out Landorus-T and Gliscor if it has Ice Punch. Earthquake allows it to OHKO Heatran and threaten other Megagross. It also has access to priority in the form of Bullet Punch, but this option is usually inferior in OU imo.

    The main cons I've seen while using Megagross are that its vulnerable to being outsped before it gets to Mega evolve, and its main attacking moves don't have perfect accuracy. However, Megagross's bulk can help it find opportunities to Mega evolve if it can't force a switch, and its bulk also helps it if its attacks miss.
     
  28. Sakuya Izayoi

    Sakuya Izayoi love to hate

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    @Finchinator

    just lazy to quote your full post but you made some valid points. I just disagree that usage stats should be pushed aside and honestly I find them the most reliable way of looking at the state of the metagame. Usage stats may be influenced by very new users using stuff like red's in game hgss team but generally the information is still fairly accurate as it depicts enough data to prove certain trends. eh honestly I would rather have a constantly evolving metagame then a perpectually stale metagame, which is why the reintroduction of Aegislash might help to make the metagame more balanced with its presence.

    I would like to further add to my previous post that should MSableye be suspected and subsequently banned before the introduction of Aegislash back into the metagame as without MSableye stall is honestly a lot weaker as an archetype because of the recent rise in stallbreakers/wallbreakers such as MGardevoir and Landorus-I, and the presence of Aegislash alone in the tier does help stall to adjust back and at least give it a fighting chance in the tier. We can get MSableye out of the tier, let the metagame settle for say a month and we look at how stall adapts without MSableye before we look into the possibility of unbanning Aegislash. yea I guess I should have thought through that MSableye+Aegislash is definitely gonna be aids ' - '

    That being said, I think MSableye should be suspected first over MMetagross as I think MSableye is a significantly more pressing issue than MMetagross that should be addressed first. MSableye makes stall too strong as an archetype to deal with, its the one mon that makes stall viable in the first place despite the presence of incredible wallbreakers such as Landorus/MMetagross/MGallade/Specs Keldeo/Zard Y etc and makes their job significantly harder as a wallbreaker just because of magic bounce. In the past OU generations, stall has never had control of the hazard game. One of the main ways to beat stall teams was always to set up hazards then wear them down eventually through smart double switching, which is made impossible with MSableye. Pokemon such as Latios could beat stuff like Chansey with the help of SR by double switching twice and making Chansey take sr damage twice, then 2hko on the switch with psyshock. MSableye makes hazard orientated teams ineffective simply because they are unable to beat MSableye, and hence the team's wallbreaker has a much harder time dealing with the stall team's walls because they do not have any residual damage on their side. MSableye is arguably even more over centralising than Aegislash was in a sense because despite the metagame adapting around MSableye (like the increase in usage of SR Landorus of late) and even then you are forced to bring a pokemon that will always beat it 1v1. MSableye also invalidates stuff like sr Ferrothorn/Hippo.

    Another thing about MSableye which I've been trying out lately is Metal Burst with a sdef spread. This lure pokemon that would otherwise beat it in a 1v1 scenario such as Heatran and Zard Y to get pressured by Metal Burst (or in Zard Y's case, cleanly KO'd back) This simply change in moveset makes MSableye infinitely harder to deal with and adds a separate dimension to MSableye as you now have to worry about whether the pokemon you bring to ko MSableye might actually in fact ko you back. Something innovative and fun which I have abused lately :] user @Psychic Onion can attest to its effectiveness. I'll also leave the set here so that you guys can give this a shot and post about its use in the metagame and its effectiveness.

    Sableye (M) @ Sablenite
    Trait: Prankster
    EVs: 252 HP / 244 SDef / 12 Spd
    Careful Nature (+SDef, -SAtk)
    - Will-O-Wisp
    - Recover
    - Knock Off
    - Metal Burst

    Pair this up with CM Clef and your opp has something difficult to deal with should they lose zard y/heatran to this ^ _ ^

    The difference between MSableye and Aegislash is that MSableye centralises the metagame in a way that it makes the game significantly more match-up reliant while Aegislash makes certain pokemon less viable because of its presence. The way I see this, I think making the game more match-up reliant breaks the tier. There are 3 factors in deciding a game: gameplay, luck, team match-up. Luck is a factor that is uncontrollable. Ideally in a game, smart predictions should be the deciding factor of who wins the game. Because of this, ideally team matchup advantage/disadvantage should also be kept to a minimum and hence to keep this balance, MSableye should be banned and Aegislash should be reintroduced so that hopefully this makes every playstyle on an equal playing field and all are equally viable against each other. Just to clarify, I'm not saying that team matchup disadvantage means an automatic loss, what I mean is that it makes the disadvantaged user will have to play more aggressively to overcome the matchup disadvantage, as well as to prevent the opponent's most threatening pokemon from exploiting the team's flaws. There is a reason why an archetype such as stall and a playstyle such as rain offense is so dominant in the current meta, that's because they matchup so well vs the current hyper/bulky offense/balance teams and they are unable to keep up with the pressure should both players be equally good and luck does not play a significant role in deciding the game.
     
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2015
  29. GerMoj

    GerMoj Victory Is Ours Clan Leader

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    Putting my two cents in here:

    Honestly, ORAS OU is very match-up dependant as with the introduction of too many mons it is virtually impossible to keep an answer to every type of archetype on a single team. MegaEye stall teams are really hard to take down without a dedicated Sableye counter and MegaGross teams are kinda the same thing without a specific counter to it.

    SO Game Freak decided to give us some really powerful megaevolutions, but they power creeped the entire game as now the meta becomes like a rock, paper, scissors game depending mostly of the mega you choose.

    Banning MegaEye won't balance the game in the first try as it will unblock the path for some thinks it checked, but with the changes this does to the meta, the road will open to call for new suspects leading to a healthier meta on the long run. (by healthier I mean less matchup-reliant).

    So, in conclusion, I'd like to say: Let's pursue a healthier meta starting with analizing Sablenite

    Note: I'm not pro or against ban, I'm just saying discussing will help us decide what is healthier.
     
  30. Finchinator

    Finchinator IT’S FINK DUMBASS

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    I'm going to quote a post I made on Mega-Metagross on another forum, which currently has Mega-Metagross being suspected. I'm really leaning to suspect this (I have been for a couple months, but not been able to generate too much support because lack of activity), so here goes.

     
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  31. Haze Victory

    Haze Victory Dem slumps..~

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    I'm surprised nobody's mentioned Landorus-I yet (Or maybe everybody just hates stall XD).
    Anyway,after a few successful attempts of running stall in ORAS (Got 1450+ before exams and such,so guessing its safe to call it successful),the only decent walls I've found that checks a landorus-I so far have been Gastrodon and Bronzong.Given even the most premiere of special walls this meta fail to tank it,and given its vast movepool,single handedly poses a huge threat to most stall teams.
    Capable of 1-2HKO'ing most stall mons,and even a Chansey after a single calm mind (Or knock off for worse -
    (+1 252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Focus Blast vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 309-367 (48.1 - 57.1%) -- 91.8% chance to 2HKO ,
    +1 252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Focus Blast vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 309-367 (48.1 - 57.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock ,
    +1 252 SpA Expert Belt Sheer Force Landorus Focus Blast vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 286-338 (44.5 - 52.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock).
    Needless to say Clefable and Sylveon are easy 2hits regardless of SR damage,even at base stat.Which leaves special wall Bronzong and Gastrodon the decent checks here,Bronzong of which is again severely dented by a Knock off carrying set taking above 50% total HP damage.
    ( 0- Atk Life Orb Landorus Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Bronzong: 177-208 (52.3 - 61.5%) -- 96.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery ).
    Hoping to see it get a suspect test soon,but lol.Am kinda new on the forums here so will leave the deciding.
     
  32. GerMoj

    GerMoj Victory Is Ours Clan Leader

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    Hi, everybody! Well, I think Finch had already said most of what it is supposed to say about MegaGross.

    Sadly, MegaGross has a huge 4MSS problems as it can't take on every of its counters in the same set (and stall always comes with a plan b to the biggest threats). Even though, MegaGross can really be a pain to be dealt with balance and offense oriented teams as the task of checking MegaGross gives enormous pressure to a single mon, eventually wearing it down and leaving the team open for a sweep by MegaGross or a teammate.

    I don't think MegaGross is broken by itself as it doesn't forces teambuilding to focus heavily on it (as Greninja and Aegislash did) but MegaGross impacts the metagame as it makes it heavily reliant on matchup.

    MegaGross may be the reason why MegaDiancie isn't terrorizing OU, but that is only theorymoning and keeping one thing to check others isn't really a good reason to avoid the suspect.

    I think some suspects may be healthier such as Sablenite, but in the end if it deserves to be on the microscope will be told by the evolution of the meta. So yeah, I agree that MegaGross is toxic to the meta and is one of the things that must have a suspect.

    On the Landorus-I issue, it really isn't as destructive as it is argued. Chansey can't take it for sure mostly because of Knock Off but Lando also suffers from 4MSS. Specially defensive Gliscor can take variants without HP Ice. MegaEye (specially defensive) can Knock Off its LO making it easier to handle and MegaAlt can also take on variants without Sludge (and Sludge ones are handled by Gliscor). Bulky waters can handle it rather well, specially things with Ice Beam, Zapdos (specially defensive) with HP Ice also handles it well. Venusaur can also outstall Landorus thanks to its bulk, lefties and recovery. MegaLatias is my personal favorite as She can tank everything thrown at her and proceed to setup on her own. Yeah Lando hits hard, but 4MSS can be exploited to wall it as it needs to choose between Setup, Moveset or Speed (Rock Polish).

    I'm not fancy of banning Sablenite just to bring Aegislash back, switching one broken mon for another is just not good, but I'd also like to propose something crazy: suspecting Sablenite and Metagross together. SableEye actually forces the meta to evolve around it (on example is the Specially Defensive Excadrill set just to poison him and reducing its utility) With boosting and status Sableye can get past it's should be counters. Chansey lacks the ability to do anything to it besides PP Stalling it. Clefable is a good answer, but Sableye can just simply switch to Rachi who is a great partner to Sableye as it takes easily some fairies that Sabeleye can't get past and can cripple the switch with a Serene Grace Body Slam. Scarf variants also help keeping momentum with U-turn and can revive Sableye in a pinch with Healing Wish. Also Sableye is usually seen on stall teams which can easily support him and cure it from toxic inflicted by the Excadrill gimmick. Altaria is a fair threat to Sableye, but again, with enough setup Sableye can tank the HyperVoice or plainly switch to a more adequate teammate. CMRachi even when rare gives extremely good offensive support as the player is forced to sacrifice a Setup Counter against any of those. Lopunny can also threat Sableye, but a Prankster / Well timed WoW can cripple it for the rest of the match.

    What makes Sableye so powerful aren't the stats or power itself but it is the fact is the greatest winning condition added to stall of all times. It fits so well because it can work in perfect synergy with the team and also being a real threat to most archetypes. Not just being a great winning condition but also a great teamsupporter is what makes Sableye -in my opinion- worthy to be suspected.

    The reason I propose that both mons can be suspected at the same time is because they affect the meta in different ways. While one of them makes the meta matchup dependant, the other has the pure potential to be by far too good for an archetype.
     
  33. Haze Victory

    Haze Victory Dem slumps..~

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    With most agreeing on the issue of mega Metagross being toxic,I feel its time it got the suspect testing already.
    Im surprised it hasnt got one yet on Po..(Discussion seems to move real slow nowadays..-_-?)
     
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2015
  34. Haze Victory

    Haze Victory Dem slumps..~

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    Not sure if double posting is an infraction here but will do it nonetheless since thread been inactive since my last post.
    Sure the Megagross thread is going on atm,but that discussion doesn't seem to end anytime soon.Anyway,I'd like to propose Stored power to be tested.Even with Baton nerf limited 2 mons,stored power seems an immensely threatening move.Which's almost impossible to stop unless you already got your counter in a 1v1 situation against your opponent since the start of their setting up.A wasted turn to switch into the baton almost always costs a lot and most attempts are easily stonewalled by a free turn of Cotton Guard/Iron defense/Geomancy that can easily be pulled off on the free turn required to switch your baton-foil mon..If a Baton foil mon exists on your team.Taunt,as is it's nature is bounced back by a magic guard Espeon,which is a staple to most Stored Power teams,which then continues to set up on the face of the Taunt user.Leaving Dragon Tail as the only counterable means to stopping the Baton chain when played right (Idk whether calling it a chain would even be the right term at this point.Since a Iron defense Scoli/Geo,cottonguard Smeargle + Espeon is all that takes to initiating win condition).
    Furthermore Stored Power having an unlimited power-(860 Bulbapedia says.And that's regardless of STAB at the point when all stats are maxed out.Sure having all stats maxed out aint necessary to pull of a sweep though,since a product of heightened stats and added power to Stored Power gets the job done rather early,with almost flawless efficiency.)-makes the stored power mon able to surpass unaware mons too,and rather easily.Making the only true answers to it being Dragon tail,to break the chain early game..Or hax.
    (The latter aint reliable..Just aint .)
     
  35. Oh So Penspin

    Oh So Penspin Hail RNGesus, our Lord and Saviour!

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    Double posting isn't an infraction, unless you keep spamming. As you mentioned, the thread has been inactive for a month, so it's fine to post again =)

    Regarding the brokeness of Stored Power; I think you're vastly overpricing the strategy. Baton Pass is, since the nerf, no longer a very viable strategy in the sense that whole teams are dedicated to it. Some HO teams make use of QuickPassing (be it SmashPass or GeoPass), while some mons can use Baton Pass naturally on teams (Gliscor, Celebi). The nature of the metagame makes it very hard to pass off huge boosts, as most teams can prevent it by offensive pressure, phazers or Taunt. Stored Power needs a lot of time to reach its full potential and if you're playing a somewhat skilled opponent, you won't get that time.
     
    Finchinator likes this.
  36. Purpleseamonkey

    Purpleseamonkey PO Alt: y0

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    Rohit_1997 may be wrong about stored power; seeing as it is used out side of bp (MG cm Cleff) and is very not overpowered. However, that does not mean there is not something broken or too formulaic about this whims/espy/scoli/Cleff team. I would say it would seem the problem would be how easy is is to get said boost and maximize stored power's pb. The culprit being scolipeade of corse. It basically functions the same in each tier and supports its team in amazing and unique way. Many a ninjask comparison are made between these two bugs, but anyone who has use them both understands that such comparisons are ridiculous for the following reasons
    -120 bp stab (rare these days)>80
    -*2 rocks >*4
    -Better defensive typing
    -Better offensive typing
    -More bulk
    -More base attack
    -Wider move pool (including hazards and better boosting moves and coverage moves)

    Scolipeade's ability to threaten teams in multiple ways; being sweeping, hazards, or pass (or any combination of the two) depending on the moves it chooses to run make it way more powerful then the extremely predictable shenanigans of ninjask. Another key factor being iron defense which allows it to pass +1 spe +2def stat after one turn making scoli support a much larger variety of pokemon then then passing sd to something on hyper offense (you could only come in 3 times max with rocks remember? *As opposed to 5*). It can help a huge quantity of mons in ou beat their usual checks or counters and requires very little support itself. Passing so much speed to almost any conceivable threat is extremely dangerous and was only balanced at the cost of being gimmicky and one dimensional. Scolipeade is neither and needs too be suspected in ORAS OU
     
  37. Haze Victory

    Haze Victory Dem slumps..~

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    I really wouldn't suspect Scolipede.As sure it is a great support mon,but can easily be stopped by some of the most common
    ways of phazing.(Whirlwind/roar) and seeing to how taunt can work despite a substitute's presence.
    IMO the brokenness begins when Espeon comes into the picture.Capable of bouncing back common phazing moves and taunt alike.Moreover what makes it even more broken IMO is that all an Espeon core needs to pull off a sweep is an iron defense
    Scolipede which can set up on most physical attackers(Bar faster opponents that can OHKO it back / Talonflame),set up an
    iron defense and thanks to the courtesy of it's ability,baton pass the boosts before getting taunted
    Speaking of chains @Oh So Penspin .Gotta agree with you that baton chains are not a viable strategy for dedicated teams
    anymore.Though after playing on the ladder for sometime,I see a reflect + Light screen + Memento tactic seems to be an
    equally good substitute.Screens pulled up by a fast dual screener such as Azelf,followed by a Prankster memento user such as Whimsicott,also
    carrying taunt if need be and ending with a memento.Leading to a faster Scoli pass.Sounds hard to pull off,but much easier
    when you consider the fact that most teams run no more than 1 taunt user and Scott isnt even KO'ed by Talon's BB under
    reflect.
    252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Whimsicott through Reflect: 187-222 (57.7 - 68.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
    .
    I propose Stored power to be suspected because Scolipede is a mon cold stopped by taunt and easy means of phazing (Bar
    Dragon Tail.Iron defense sub says hi.)As Scolipede is not broken by itself but forms an incredibly potent core,probably
    broken,when paired up with a Magic Bounce Espeon.And since Espeon in itself is well handled by most Unaware mons in the absence of Stored power.And even though not every team can afford to run an unaware mon,an offensive mon that can tank a hit or two and KO back can do the job extremely well at taking it out before it gains said Calm Mind boosts.
     
  38. Purpleseamonkey

    Purpleseamonkey PO Alt: y0

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    How is it cold stopped by taunt when it can run life orbed and sweeper sets. You said all espeon needs is +2 def to set up but what it really needs is +6 speed +2 def to have a 240 pb stored power. Unless you are running priority taunt you cant really stop scoli from doing something whether that is passing, setting up an sd, sub, iron defense, or attacking. I would honestly advise you to use the thing on a couple of well made teams that aren't just memento pass if you want a better understanding of its coverage and versatility because you seem to only be considering one variant on a copy paste team
     
  39. Haze Victory

    Haze Victory Dem slumps..~

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    Each stat gives stored power an extra 20 point.Starting at 20,it got a base power at 20 at base stats.+2 def adds 40 base power taking it to 60,add to that +2 speed,a 100 base power.Next move - Calm mind = an extra 40 base power for every CM it pulls off.You don't need to get to +6 speed.
    Not gonna discuss the LO set since I've never used it and Talon/Gliscor/Skarm made an easy job of it on my teams.
     
  40. Cameltoed

    Cameltoed Excadrill gira

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    what about suspecting batonpass instead of scolipede/storedpower/complexbans etc