[ORAS] ORAS OU Metagame Discussion Thread

Discussion in 'Past Gens Discussion' started by Finchinator, Nov 2, 2014.

  1. Spoovo The Pirate

    Spoovo The Pirate Meep! Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    Not to nitpick, but none of that's doing shit to Rotom-W:

    0 SpA Tough Claws Mega Metagross Grass Knot (20 BP) vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Rotom-W: 40-48 (13.2 - 15.8%)
    252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-W: 36-43 (11.8 - 14.1%)

    And you can't always act like Megagross is going to predict perfectly every time, can you? If you could, every wallbreaker would be broken.

    EDIT: Forgot Hammer Arm. Even that's not getting very far:

    252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Hammer Arm vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-W: 108-128 (35.6 - 42.2%) -- 92.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
     
  2. Purpleseamonkey

    Purpleseamonkey PO Alt: y0

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    252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Zen Headbutt vs. 248 HP / 164+ Def Rotom-W: 139-165 (45.8 - 54.4%) -- 6.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
    252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Zen Headbutt vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-W: 129-153 (42.5 - 50.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery can 2hkos with rocks
    We already had this discussion here. Basically we banned metagross at the start of oras and the tier is still made up of the same things minus the amount of slowbro (slowking?) that needed to be used.

    This thread very much needs set/defined topics for disscusion. We make some progress on somethings but we always get distracted by new suggestions and ideas. Im not saying we shouldn't be open to suggestions, like when @AnuncioBot brings up tornadus, but at the same time so many irrelevant ideas gets in the way of actual development.
     
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  3. Spoovo The Pirate

    Spoovo The Pirate Meep! Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    Well yeah, it's obvious that Zen Headbutt deals heavy damage to Rotom-W. But it wasn't specified in the previous post. Plus, what do you sacrifice for it?

    You get eaten by bulky Grounds without Ice Punch, while Slowbro walls you to hell without Grass Knot, etc etc.
     
  4. Edna

    Edna Chasing the Dragon Forum Moderator Forum Moderator

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    Reasons why you want to keep Rotom-W healthy would be for Talonflames, regular Gyarados and all the bunch of stuff it checks. Making it lose constantly HP will just make your team very weak to others top threats. That implies you need both Rotom-W and Garchomp or whatever you want to slap there to check cores formed with Mega Metagross. How much is that healthy to restrict your teambuilding to slap 2 mons just to check 2 others specifically just so you're not swept? It was discussed and since nobody changed bar the ban of Landorus and Hoopa-B.

    The metagame being more oriented to bulky offense doesn't mean you should unban Megagross ( otherwise unban greninja and Mega mawile).
    Not to mention Megagross is much much much better in cleaner than wallbreaker, because some pokemon does that better than him ( Mega Heracross the first that comes to my mind). Usually when the battle is over, most of the time Garchomp is going to be KO'ed, and Landorus can't even OHKO with Earthquake due to its natural bulk. not to mention after rocks rotom is 2hkoed, and people tend to run evs to hit 221 or at least outspeed jolly azumarill, making it somehow less bulky and 2hkoed by zen headbutt.

    I can't make a longer post atm because I gtg, but the actual OU is way better without megagross, who just makes it worse, and would terribly orient your team to run specifics counters to that, and the fact all the cores built around Megagross are just toxic if you want to play different playstyles
     
  5. Oh So Penspin

    Oh So Penspin Hail RNGesus, our Lord and Saviour!

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    Actually, you'll find 2 mons that check MegaGross on most teams, since most of its checks are quite common mons. I'm aware that it has moves to bypass its checks and counters, but it can only run 4 moves. I'm aware it would be a very good mon, because it still has amazing stats, but I'm not sure if it would be as broken as it was before.

    EDIT: Unbanning Mega Mawile would be worse in a balance-oriented metagame, as it is a much better wallbreaker than MegaGross :v

    EDIT2: More on topic: I think Shadow Tag is broken enough for a suspect, not sure about Scoli though.
     
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2015
  6. Edna

    Edna Chasing the Dragon Forum Moderator Forum Moderator

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    My point with greninja and Mega mawile was to say it's not because the OU meta tends to be BO that we should unban stuff, they're def broken af.

    My main problem with megagross is the cores it creates. Run a lot of bulk and Pursuit to trap Latwins and win with Kelde, run Grass Knot to bypass Hippo and slowbro to sweep with talonflame etc etc.

    The cores generated by Megagross are very hard to counter because of how effective they are, one of the point that led Megagross to be banned.

    Also, I know a lot of you want to follow Smogon with bans and it didn't get ban because of no super majority ( or whatever that is), but I haven't seen a single argument to why it's not broken besides rotom and Slowro and Scizor ( who can easily be dealt with Clefable+Magnezone)

    Checking a pokemon is always possible, even if it's Mega Rayquaza because of multiple set it can run, that doesn't imply that said pokemon should not remain banned.

    The pro-unban has only stated a different orientation of the metagame and 3 checks, just saying
     
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  7. styler

    styler Pichu lover

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    Ok thats a point but a wise man once said if every strategy got some op things it would be balanced and then that makes for a pacefull and hard thinking game
     
  8. OUAzumarill

    OUAzumarill Active Member

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    No idea who that wise man is or if he even exists in the first place, but he's wrong.

    Multiple broken mons on each play style eliminates creativity in teambuilding. The only other good moms are those who either synergize with or check the broken ones. And also the scenario you're describing is also impossible as broken mons tend to be useful on more than one playstyle. The single exception I can think of is Deo-D.
     
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2015
  9. AnuncioBot

    AnuncioBot Tome muito líquido!

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    Mega Scizor is another chek / counter for Mega Metagross.
    And I think Mega Gardevoir is more broken than him, but that's beside the point.

    I had quoted Tornadus-T for a possible suspect, he is a Pivot and not a Sweeper like most of all that has been banned in OU, could be analyzed differently, most of his cheks are more slow and suffer from combo Knock Off + U-Turn > Chek, and the fastest in general do not have recovery except Mega Aerodactyl. But again, this is beside the point.

    I agree that the focus should be discussing Shadow Tag and Baton Pass. After that the metagame will undergo new changes, we can discuss Metagrossite, or anything else.

    Shadow Tag and Baton Pass are major problems and should be prioritized, either for a new council or whatever.
     
  10. .Rawr!

    .Rawr! c(°3°)כ

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    Ok yeah, couple of thoughts:

    1. Don't retest Mega metagross, the tier is better without it. Amazing speed tier, amazing bulk and the fact its main STAB (meteor smash) have a chance to increase its attack coupled with coverage moves makes it toxic already. (Also negate intimidate before megaevolving is nice)

    2. Suspect Gothitelle. Its Trick Calm mind set is uncompetitive like fuck again any playstyle, it technically choose what to trap, allowing settup sweepers a field day later with their counters out. Wobbuffet instead is ok, seriously in the actual OU where passive damage, status and hazard run rampant, wobbuffet is most of times a dead weight. Don't have experience with Gothorita so not talking of it. Arena Trap (dugtrio) and Magnet Pull (magne family) are ok in the tier too.

    3. Suspect Scolipede and Geopass. From the times when Baton pass chains were suspected, I was already pushing for a Scolipede suspect. It is the main tool Baton pass users got this gen, and not without reason (well blaziken too but that thing was banned already so k). Scolipede just won the jackpot with speed boost this gen, and with Iron Defense (+ bulk) it makes any Stored Power receiver a monster. Ninjask instead is a joke.
    Probably someone will try Eviolite Combusken in the future, and we will have a discussion about it too, but who knows, maybe not.
    Then Geopass Smeargle. Sure it requires a lot more support than scolipass (memento users, screens) but still a cheap strategy. Spore/Dark Void from smeargle makes sure counters are out for good, Ingrain prevent phazing in case your receiver is not espeon (clefable, mega latias), well you get it...

    4. Create an OU council. Seriously stop being lazy and do it.


    [​IMG]
     
  11. Spoovo The Pirate

    Spoovo The Pirate Meep! Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    With the Geopass Smeargle thing, why not just ban Geomancy instead? It's not a complex ban, which is always preferred, and solves the problem?
     
  12. Funbot28

    Funbot28 Active Member

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    Geopass isn't the only problem, the main problem with BP is Scoli pass to Clefable with Magic Guard. It's almost impossible to take down after a couple of boosts.
     
  13. Sakuya Izayoi

    Sakuya Izayoi love to hate

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    er i merely skimmed through the posts so i'll may have missed out on some stuff or i may have misinterpreted or misread it wrong so apologies in advance, if i did lemme know and i'll correct it/reply to it. i also haven't rly actively played in a long time so this is just from my observation for the past couple of months.

    re metagross: yea i guess in theory u can run meteor mash/3 other coverage options (gk/ip/hammer arm/hp fire/tpunch/eq/zen/bp) so ur not exactly wrong by saying u can run meteor mash/gk/ip/hammer arm to catch both hippo/chomper/steels respectively but this isn't a trait that is only given to wallbreakers, so many other wallbreakers also have a myriad of options at their disposal and can lure out their usual checks/counters. having 4 slots is also a double edged sword as established a long time ago since well ur obviously gonna miss out on important stuff like mana/rotomw and obviously u gotta alleviate this problem w/ proper teambuilding. so how does this exactly make mmetagross any more broken than any other wallbreaker? just cuz it can be "unpredictable" in a sense doesn't mean its broken, it just shows u gotta be more cautious playing around it and looking at the team preview and immediately start identifying what its coverage options are. obviously it would make sense that say ur running a keldeo w/ mmetagross and no other pursuit user u gotta know that mmetagross likely has pursuit to trap latwins. also, we should only talk about mmetagross as a threat in the metagame, not mmetagross+x partner. lol im not saying ur wrong that mmetagross+x partner (volc/talon/serp/azu/keldeo/hydreigon etc) is good but that doesn't differenciate mmetagross from other wallbreakers. for example keldeo+ttar is a tried and tested offensive core since bw that is so good even in the current meta, but does that make keldeo broken? nah. also dont u think saying chomp/skarm will dominate the meta because of mmetagross' presence is a stretch and a hyperbole in itself? iirc when smogon was suspecting mmetagross these mons weren't that common, hippo balance was p rare, endure rh chomper wasn't exactly a thing, and skarm iirc was declining in usage (tho tbh im not sure but i think im right). however after smogon deemed mmetagross as not broken the above mentioned mons started to increase in usage and competitive play, not because the metagame is bending its back over to adapt to mmetagross but because people realised how good they simply are, with or without mmetagross. these mons merely checked mmetagross as well, but mmetagross never did influence the metagame trend. PO finally caught on to this after months and developed nonetheless. idc if u never see it in #tournaments play cuz its a v poor representative of the meta anyway. i think i read up somewhere that rotomw won't be able to function well becuz of mmetagross' presence is admittedly horse shit not gonna lie. rotomw has always been v easy to overload since bw and it still holds true even in the current meta. also idk where u guys get the idea rotomw is remotely even a check to mmetagross, its a v shaky one to begin w/ that relies on wisp to hit and has to avoid the zen flinch from mmetagross and also doesn't rly like to eat a hit from mmeta to begin w/.

    er i dont rly think BO is great in the curret meta, tbh i find it the worst playstyle currently and this is coming from a player who absolutely loves playing BO. the meta rn is rly stall/balance/ho, bo teams dont rly function as well. u gotta either hit v fast and v hard or u gotta soak up the hits, tbh thats the higher ladder play on ps. hippo balance is still really strong in the current meta too, has a solid defensive backbone which lets it tank hits while also having a bit more offensive presence. mmetagross sitting at base 110 speed kinda sucks too cuz ur not fast enough to outrun HO yet u dont have access to a set up move that allows u to straight up punish stall. im not saying hes too weak, but sometimes i see it being deadweight vs stall simply cuz its not packing the right moves to beat stall so easily. if u wanna see the currnet state of the ps ladder meta look up the higher OLT players and you'll see the majority of the games are gonna be either msableye/gothitelle/chansey/quagsire/skarm/amoongus(filler) or msableye/shedinja/seismitoad/togekiss/talonflame or some HO(cosine180's sashspam: breloom/starmie/talonflame/chomp/diancie/bisharp. ya theres gonna be some variations but more or less the teams are gonna look something like this. lol so what if you have to pack 2 checks to beat mmetagross, you do the same for every single top tier threat in the meta right? so how does this make mmetagross an exception and makes it any more broken? so tl;dr i dont actually find mmetagross that good as it was previously, it gets outgunned by HO and not exactly that strong vs slower-paced teams as well. think it can drop oO

    re goth/s tag

    when i mean goth i mean both gothitelle and gothorita since gothorita plays p much the exact same role as gothitelle. it hits iirc base 107 speed w/ a scarf so u kinda still net the same targets bar cm latios. sure goth is a lot more squishy compared to gothitelle but as long as you trick and cripple the right mon it has already fulfilled its job. so if gothitelle is banned, i think gothorita should too. however the dilemma is, is s tag the problem of is the goth family the problem. placing a blanket ban on s tag has its own set of problems and wobb suffers as collateral damage. also how well we treat mgengar? should it be retested but with no ability instead? however banning goth means you are effectively banning two pokemon. i think its pretty clear that goth+s tag is what makes it broken and uncompetitive, providing unmatched support by eliminating/crippling a threat with no chance of escape.

    not sure why people still use trick/cm when trick/twave is the superior goth set. twave allows goth to cripple megas such as mgardevoir as well and makes it a lot harder for them to beat stall. a paralysed mgardevoir honestly isn't doing a lot of work to skarm/chansey. cm merely enables you to have a "chance" at sweeping but lets be honest you will almost never see a mono attacking gothitelle with psychic as its only attacking move vs an entire decent team. goth's role is to disrupt and eliminate certain threats for the team. once you successfully eliminate the opposing stallbreaker, stall becomes so much more difficult to counterplay against. it has come to a point where people are running shed shell on offense mons just to not get fucked by goth (i.e. togekiss/manaphy)

    basically this is how goth works:
    >goth switches in, manaphy tail glows
    >goth tricks scarf to manaphy, manaphy goes for scald (if it goes for 2nd tg u get to cripple yet another threat), manaphy kills goth
    >+3 manaphy isn't enough to break chansey, manaphy is locked, stall wins :]

    lol torn t suspect
    lol bp issue still not settled
    lol someone pulling a quote out of their ass, further showing how ignorant they are
    lol people asking for an ou council when there honestly aren't any good candidates to begin with. its so easy to say u want a council but how many of you can actually write a proper paragraph or even play/judge/observe the tier well

    if u want to progress as a community, stick to one issue at a time, agree to a general consensus first then go and move on to tackle other topics. it's good that people know what problems need to be addressed and people are concerned about the tier but rn its just a clusterfuck and people are randomly having internal discussions when another issue is being discussed. if u continue the way it is rn, you'll never get shit done.

    just my 2 c, pce
     
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  14. Purpleseamonkey

    Purpleseamonkey PO Alt: y0

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    lets just say i find it unwise that these two sentences are in the same post

    I didn't see you in the metagross discussion so if you have not read that we addressed all of these would be checks here. Running one or two cores just for one mon is very problematic especially when said checks often have less bulk then metagross and may not resist rocks.

    Goth is not the same thing as shadow tag. ST is toxic in any strategy involving it because switching is a game mechanic. There is no counter play for ST like there is for magnet pull, arena trap, and mean look. It's an uncompetitive ability very much in need of a suspect

    Maybe a scolipede suspect soon?

    chill

    @MetalGross has said he doesn't want to just make decisions arbitrarily solo-Eternal style which i respect, but that also means that more people need to have the ability to guide discussion
     
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  15. Sakuya Izayoi

    Sakuya Izayoi love to hate

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    why
    just cuz i rarely play anymore doesn't mean i don't know the metagame. i know the metagame from watching games of high-level players and the top ps ladder. tbh i probably know the meta better than you n_n


    lol go check the metagross discussion and count the number of replies i made. unsure as to how you can afford to run two defensive cores regardless to check on a team but w/e. to beat mmetagross u rly only need 2 common mons and a solid amount of pressure. not sure if you actually realise but the metagame is hugely out of favour for mmetagross rn, theres so much darkspam, hippo balance, stall and HO that makes it so much more difficult for mmetagross to function at its best in unlike during the early oras mmetagross suspect discussion. theres obviously no surefire counter for mmetagross but its flaws are so exploitable in the current metagame to the point where i can get away with just running even 1 check to it on ho/bo such as chomp.

    lol i know how s tag works. goth requires s tag to function, goth without s tag is p much useless as fuck. lol whats the counterplay for magnet pull/arena trap/mean look, this i would like to know. i dont see wobb as functionally broken, so why should wobb be in a sense banned as well when the problem is gothitelle's toolkit that allows it to put pressure on stall/set-up wallbreakers.


    lol this has got to be a joke. scolipede+clef tbh i dont rly see it working as effectively in practice than on paper. sure u get up iron defense and u pass speed boosts to cm clef but it doesn't make it undefeatable. scoli already has issues passing the boost on offense teams since offense simply doesnt give scoli the chance to set up and pass the boosts away without doing a shitton of damage to this. tbh even balance/stall teams should have its way around this cuz they should be packing phazing moves such as ww hippo/skarm for it. maybe u can give me a log on how its done and i may be convinced but for now i think ur greatly misguided or playing with really shit players. also wouldnt stat boost+speed boost+baton pass solve the problem ? _ ?

    users can guide the discussion by simply posting in the threads, its not just limited to being a TL before you can begin contributing

    edit: oops sry for the useless tag xd
     
  16. Purpleseamonkey

    Purpleseamonkey PO Alt: y0

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    Basically you're on smogon a lot so therefore you must be way smarter. "I watch" is not a statement that inspires much confidence but you must have way better perspective than the most active poster on suspects

    I strongly disagree with this. Garchomp and hippowdon did indeed exist when we banned mega meta. Mega Meta still has 80/150/110 defenses (and a 1.5 resistance to knock off!). Yea so i dont really see what flaws you could take advantage of. Meta 1hkos and outspeeds the 2 most common dark types.


    You keep saying the problem is goth. That is wrong. The problem is shadow tag. If you have been keeping up with this thread you would have saw about a page ago when discussing wob that we think wob is just a uncompetitive as goth. Shadow tag traping has no counterplay unlike arena trap and magnet pull because it effects everything sans ghosts (the type with the fewest mons). Other sorts of trapping are fair because you could just run more levitate or less steal types and have half your team immune to duggy or magnezone. Shadow tag is far too restrictive of the game mechanic of switching and is therefore uncompetitive on any mon, in any context

    I don't think you have used/teambuilt/played against this strategy. That should give you some pause when making general statements like this that the vast majority of people disagree with. To say scolipede has issues passing boosts is basically opposite day. At no time ever has a single mon passed so many boost so efficiently against so much of the meta. Everyone (from teir leaders to very good users to forum people) has said they dont think a complext ban is a solution to be considering here. Things don't need to be "undefeatable" to be considered broken and you completely ignore the fact that magic bounce exists to always beat roar/ww. This is the biggest problem with the tier right now; so no, this is not a joke we really need a scolipede suspect


    Damn all this time I've just been waiting! No but in all seriousness it's a pointless exercise to just be debating random topics without having the ideas and thinking from the people who can do something about them. Often times discussion here dies down when we come to a decent resolution but nothing is done or said about it. Like, that's insulting and discourages people from posting. Other times posting slows because we keep have posts that are irrelevant of each other. There are more then enough people here to continue to have great discussions but there needs to be some sort of legislation of topics and opinions. If @MetalGross doesn't have the time to post here he should make another tier leader so that people see progress and direction in this tier and not just opinions of people who don't play
     
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2015
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  17. Sakuya Izayoi

    Sakuya Izayoi love to hate

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    observation is good enough to give me a general feel of the current metagame. rn smogon has olt and stour so its a good idea to catch some of their games as well cuz PO's ou meta will inevitably follow theirs in the near future.


    wasnt hippo like in lu when mmetagross was suspected lol, goes to show how much of a joke hippo was. not saying that usage stats is reliable but its still v useful in deducing metagame trends. problem w/ mmetagross is that yer while i do acknowledge its got rly good stats, its so easy to get chip damage on it becuz of teambuilding constraints (i.e. tankchomper or having to eat a dmeteor from latis to pursuit trap them for keldeo, just a mere example) and this chip damage puts mmetagross in range of a lot of attacks. whats the 2 most common dark types? im looking at stuff like scarf ttar/weav/bisharp which are so good in the current meta and to a certain extent msableye (which is an ok check tbh tho u should have better things to take on mmetagross on msableye builds nonetheless) which take out mmetagross after a bit of prior damage. dark spam like weav+bisharp is so good at breaking otherwise dark answers such as azu and keld so quickly and maintains momentum.


    i mean i already prefaced this that i merely skimmed through the thread and didnt read in detail so idk. link me where u said that the problem is s tag when p much the only person who wrote about s tag/wobb was carl. not sure if u understand what counterplay means but by definition it means getting yourself out of a situation, in this case a mon that is trapped by goth escapes safely and isn't crippled etc. arena trap and magnet pull have their own niches. if u r up to date w/ the current meta u would know there is a team with something like msableye/shedinja/dugtrio/talonflame(?)/togekiss/seismitoad and it shows how potent arena trap is as dug can trap ttar to take away the sand and other less notable stuff like heatran/raikou and weakened grounded mons etc. magnezone/ton trapping steels is huge, esp when u consider how good steels are in the current meta and how they glue a team together and prevent them from getting wrecked by mdiancie/malt/cm latios. all 3 trapping abilities hugely benefit the user's team, theres no distinction between them apart from their pool of targets, i.e. goth traps mana/keld/set up wallbreakers, dug traps ttar/heatran/? , magnezone traps skarm/ferro/mscizor/insert steel here. they all fulfill the same goal, to trap and eliminate/cripple their targets. i'll even throw in pursuit here cuz u get to trap latis/starmie/gengar etc cuz if u switch out u still lose that mon so it functions similarly to trapping abilities.

    the problem w/ goth is that it buffs stall to a huge extent, tbh that should be the only reason why it should be banned. it gives stall way too much breathing space once u manage to successfully cripple the opponent's mana and instantly take out tg mana out of the equation from straight up wrecking your team. once u lose ur stallbreaker u kinda almost lose the game unless u are heavily prepared for stall and bring 2/3 breakers. wobb doesn't do that. wobb does trap stuff yea but its so high risk high reward to the point where in games it either achieves a huge amount of stuff or its just kinda deadweight. furthermore its usefulness is further influenced by team matchup. i think i read somewhere in the thread about charm wobb and lemme first say that it is completely outclassed by tickle. ive used tickle goth+cb ttar before to trap and ko hippo/skarm/clef and tbh its kinda fun :]
    252+ Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Pursuit (on switch) vs. -6 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 564-664 (134.2 - 158%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    252+ Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Pursuit (on switch) vs. -6 252 HP / 172 Def Clefable: 462-544 (117.2 - 138%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    252+ Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Pursuit (on switch) vs. -6 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 499-588 (149.4 - 176%) -- guaranteed OHKO


    gonna make the assumption that around 5ish people = vast majority? lol. yer scoli has issues with passing boosts in the current meta cuz its so easy to pressure and prevent it from passing or if not straight up destroying the recipient. most wants a complex ban as the solution (speed boost+stat boost+bp complex ban) but moogle doesn't want to code that which is why it is not implemented yet. heck, i know of the existence of a vr subforum thread (despite me not being in the subforum either) discussing it even if its not as active. speed boost+stat boost+complex ban is something which would fix smashpass/qdpass/ur scoli pass. get your facts right

    lol just opinions of people who don't play. im curious as to who u see as candidates for outl tbh. just cuz i dont play doesn't take away my right to contribute or share my opinion. im not interested in playing cuz clicking buttons isnt as interesting to me as it used to be, altho im still a big fan of building teams and analysing the meta. if u all could agree to a general consensus like civilised people and build up on the topic instead of changing direction, 1 outl is enough to guide the discussion along. people have lives, just cut metal some slack and give him some time to open up discussions etc. how insulting that you think so lowly of me merely cuz i prefaced that im unwilling to play cuz of my own preferences.
     
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  18. AnuncioBot

    AnuncioBot Tome muito líquido!

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    Baton Pass is in Current Suspect in ORAS UU. I believe it has already passed the time to do the same in ORAS OU. This is a long time one of the main discussions on this topic, along with Shadow Tag. Finchnator left but that does not mean that discussions should stop.
    Much has been talked about Baton Pass and simply repeat will not put an end to this, almost two weeks without a new post here, posting just to remember that Baton Pass (and Shadow Tag) is unhealthy for the tier.
     
  19. Hannah

    Hannah Come a little closer

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    Well, I don't think the situation of UU matters to what OU should be like. It does however, speak volumes on the move Baton Pass and how despite the restriction the move still sends waves in the metagame. I believe that it should be looked over once more for a complete and full ban rather than unnecessary nerfs for a single move. It is definitely a move that continues to sprout more problems as for every angle that we've taken on it the move continues to persist with a different way of strategy of abuse. I'm not sure why the restriction is being so heavily defended when it simply is Baton Pass that should be banned.

    I don't think that anything is worth re-suspecting at the moment, so I'll not dwell on that.

    OU discussion revival go pls :c
     
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  20. Oh So Penspin

    Oh So Penspin Hail RNGesus, our Lord and Saviour!

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    I'd rather ban Scolipede than Baton Pass to be honest, as Baton Pass itself isn't broken: it's the speed passing. Baton Pass itself is a perfectly viable and non-broken options on Celebi and Mega Lopunny for example.
     
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  21. Edna

    Edna Chasing the Dragon Forum Moderator Forum Moderator

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    Then Geopass Smeargle will replace it, then Ninjask etc. You do realize BP is more a problem right?
     
  22. Oh So Penspin

    Oh So Penspin Hail RNGesus, our Lord and Saviour!

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    To be honest, I haven't encountered much BPassing myself, so it's not all over the meta. Then again, I haven't been as active on ladder and in big tournaments, so that might be the reason ;p Speed Passing sounds broken on paper, but it's actually quite easy to predict (on Team Preview already). But take my view with a grain of salt tbh, as I am nowhere near as active as you are for example.
     
  23. Edna

    Edna Chasing the Dragon Forum Moderator Forum Moderator

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    It might be easy to predict but sometimes you're in a situation where you can't avoid it, and when it is that moment, you are likely to lose everytime
     
  24. Purpleseamonkey

    Purpleseamonkey PO Alt: y0

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    Any people who are calling for a ban for bp have to actually prove the move itself is broken or uncompetitive in some way. Pointing at scolipede and how hard it is to stop but then justifying not suspecting scolipede with how theorymon good a whole team devoted to smeargle pass would be, in a meta you haven't played; is terrible reasoning. There are no mons in ou that are overpowered with this move and create problems except Pede. Trying to argue the viability of ninjask is a pointless exercise. Scolipede does not need a whole team devoted to it. It has two ways to boost +2 and speed boost. It deserves a suspect. We've looked at this a few times and there are defiantly viable uses for bp in a competitive setting (CBee, Gorbyss, Esp). Baton pass is not and has never been a problem. Chains were a problem. We made what is akin to sleep clause for bp, basically cementing it as part of the metagme. Scolipede has been at the heart of all of these formulaic teams for so long and it should get its turn to get a look.
     
  25. Ortheore

    Ortheore One beautiful monster

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    Who the hell's theorymonning here? non-scoli bp is something I've played against and it is still extremely cancerous and very difficult to stop. As for checks to bp, what have we got? Phazing? lol Magic Bounce. Your own boosts? lol Unaware. Just hitting really hard? Memento, screens etc. It's been demonstrated time and again that baton pass has a way around literally anything that checks it. Meanwhile Scolipede without bp is so far from broken it's laughable
    So fucking what if a whole team is devoted to it, that doesn't mean it can't be broken as fuck. should we unban bp chains because they devoted a whole team to the strategy? Looking at individual mons is still a problem because the whole point of baton pass is that it facilitates teammates being broken
    rofl you've got to be joking. You literally contradict yourself the following sentence. Legitimate uses is a crap argument- there are legitimate uses for scolipede as well. not to mention the fact that some players opt not to use a broken strategy should not be taken as evidence that that strategy isn't broken- that would be like pointing to all the ppl that used to use SD Aegi and saying that Aegi shouldn't have been suspected

    It's time to stop making bullshit bans that dance around the cause of the problem. We've already implemented a really shitty complex ban, now we're discussing banning perfectly healthy pokemon for the sake of a move that has been cancer throughout the entire generation (and maybe before idk)?

    edit: sorry for being an ass about it
     
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2015
  26. Haze Victory

    Haze Victory Dem slumps..~

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    And they'd appreciate it if their discussions were paid actual consideration. The people around here argue a lot, and not on a thread any different than this and it's not like they aren't contributing much (I see them contributing way more than the OU tier leaders themselves). Things are only going to move forward from their contributions if their contributions are actually taken into account, and with the tier leaders actively participating in the discussions rather than showing up to mention a couple of lines onto why they aren't going to retest or suspect something.
    A prime example of contributions being overlooked I can mention is Lameflame pushing for a Genesect retest, (Around three months ago was it?) which pretty much all of us agreed on, but never got to see the light of day since the TL's didn't bother retesting it. Eventually Hoopa- B came around and along with it an excuse of a new meta at hand. Besides that, I also don't see any progress on the Shadow tag/ Baton pass report. Just people spending their time on this thread, making contributions that are likely never going to reach conclusion. Whether contributions bear fruits or not lies solely on the TL's. Also, people have a tendency of going on with countless arguments so it wouldn't really be surprising if I am disagreed with, on behalf of this, but the way I see it, people here only play a role of trying to sway the tier leader's thought patterns by their contribution and nothing else. I am sure their contributions are overlooked more than often though, as I aways see people arguing on the same topics that they were arguing on, a couple of months ago, with little to no progress overtime. No offense to those who do so, as I hold great respect for those trying to bring about a change. They are putting in all the effort they can.
     
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2015
  27. Purpleseamonkey

    Purpleseamonkey PO Alt: y0

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    This^ is a very valid (abet late) post. Here is somebody who is watching what happens and what is relevent and forms opinions and concultions based on that. Basically is guy is reasonable

    I wrote a heated message earlier, but it got deleted due to an untimely cut and paste, so this is what I have for you in a more easy state. There are a couple of things that come to light here in this thread. Most people, who play the tier, have run into something they were unprepared for, boosted on them and then passed to something that they were further unprepared for, and lost the game. Thats what baton pass is. It something I think is very reasonably fair in the ou environment and something that can be checked for given solid/diverse teambuilding and efficient move selection. Then you have scolipede. There are many factors that make this mon head and shoulders above all other users of this move. The argument that we have been talking about bp for too long makes no sense. Thats just how tiering works, we've been discussing manaphy since the first page and you know what? It's also not broken. We've been talking about the same tier for close to a year, so clearly anything thats still in it is still being discussed. We all agree currently that the tier is pretty unbalanced in its current state. Im listening to arguments addressing why bp is too good for the ou tier. Pointing to how hard it is to stop an iron defense +10,000 speed just talks about one mon that uses the same strategy that it has been using since x/y. You can say we've been dancing around this and act frustrated or whatever but we already had a bp suspect and that's whats got us here. #PEDETEST
     
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  28. Hannah

    Hannah Come a little closer

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    Hi there, the reason I feel that Baton Pass should be relooked at is that despite the already existing restriction on the move it still finds ways for more exploit and functionality. It is for that very reason that I strongly urge that Baton Pass as a move should be banned from the Overused tier due to it being a move that has different approaches and functionality that other moves are simply not on par with. The move itself spawned entire archetypes of teams around it, and still finds ways to be a general nuisance despite the restriction. I'm not saying that Baton Pass with the restriction now is currently unstoppable but I do think that the entire stance on the move should be reconsidered as in my opinion the move is just too strong.

    Another candidate that I feel was glossed over is the possible suspect of Gothitelle and/or Shadow Tag. While it isn't a prominent threat, only 3.11% in usage I do feel that such a niche pick with a game-breaking ability. Shadow Tag has such great utility that can pry open teams, whether it be done in an offensve (Trick-something and cripple/kill it) or Defensive (Tickle-trapping as DracoNinja mentioned, as well as setting up CMs to just immediately kill a mon). I think that Gothitelle or Shadow Tag to cover Wobbuffet as well, who abuses the ability but to a less explosive extent definitely deserve to be looked at.
     
    Last edited: Nov 13, 2015
  29. Oh So Penspin

    Oh So Penspin Hail RNGesus, our Lord and Saviour!

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    I feel we have a more urgent problem at hand than Baton Pass/Shadow Tag, which is a complete lack of action in this tier. We've literally been discussing BP since August and nothing, be it a test-ban or a proper suspect discussion, has happened so far. Imo, our top priority now should be to have a working format for suspects, with active people so that the same arguements don't drag on for a couple of months.

    Baton Pass/Shadow Tag are still a priority for discussion though, when we have people who can actually do something about it.
     
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  30. Edna

    Edna Chasing the Dragon Forum Moderator Forum Moderator

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    @Hannah4OUTL
     
  31. Haze Victory

    Haze Victory Dem slumps..~

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    To hell with TL's. It's high time for a council imo. The only people who I see discussing things out here are the experienced ones, bar a couple of newer users contributing their best. No offense to those who are, as we really encourage newer users to post, but I'd rather give them some more time. Atm if a council had to be made though, I can see all these experience users (Or most of them, for that matter) being squeezed into it. The ones who are experienced are really experienced at it, and those whoa aren't might as well be selected later on. Besides, it's high time we do this before we further lose the contributors due to a lack of motivation.

    Also, some people may hate me for this but that's alright. Pretty much anybody on PO pops up as Auth or TL every other day. If the Tiering administrator(s) aren't going to make a council and still select a TL, regardless of a few people wanting a council, then I request them to put some thought into the TL they come up with or even start up voting phase or something maybe. Any method that's legit. These things don't happen everyday and trying to bring about a change in these areas always takes up a whole lot of the playerbase's time. If a change finally comes about, that is.
     
  32. Oh So Penspin

    Oh So Penspin Hail RNGesus, our Lord and Saviour!

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    Both new tier leaders or a small council to back up @MetalGross work I think, as both have their merits and their disadvantages. I'm not sure who should decide what course should be taken, but could someone who knows tag them in this discussion, so we can get the ball rolling?
     
  33. pokemonnerd

    pokemonnerd Only uso listens to pnerd. Devo too. Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    @Weavile unless you passed tiering adviser to someone else your services are requested when you can get to it.
     
  34. Weavile

    Weavile Phoenix

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    No, despite my best efforts I still carry that title.

    The inaction of the OUTL remaining isn't unknown to me and I have been trying to think of someone to help or something to do to compensate for some time. However it is nothing short of obvious that there aren't many people hanging around here. A council would have to be formed of at least 5 people to be worth doing and finding such a collection of people isn't an easy thing to do. I don't want to force anything because, while I have some grasp of OU I don't know it well enough to make decisions about it directly.

    People have posted and posted well but then some of the posters that are "recent" haven't posted this month and I don't know if that's them being gone or them just not having anything to say because nobody's listening. So my decision isn't an easy one. I don't have time to properly deal with this at the moment because my workload has gotten too intense already. But I can say.

    @MetalGross don't be surprised or upset if something gets done around or without you if you refuse to respond to what people say.
     
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  35. Purpleseamonkey

    Purpleseamonkey PO Alt: y0

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    People who have been working to make this tier better should be enabled to do so. There are more then enough users like @Spoovo The Pirate and @Oh So Penspin and @Ortheore and my self who have been extremely active in all aspects of discussions since the first page. Like I get that its not easy working with unfamiliar people but if we want po to continue to fair and fun; it's key to include more voices. Basically i see that a lot of the server staff/tier leaders have dual responsibilities and its time to pull the trigger and bring in some more people to facilitate change
     
  36. Oh So Penspin

    Oh So Penspin Hail RNGesus, our Lord and Saviour!

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  37. Edna

    Edna Chasing the Dragon Forum Moderator Forum Moderator

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    What is ironic is the fact it only takes to Metal to open a thread, call it "Shadow Tag suspect" and then see what PO players really want.
    Not that I am against a council but I still find it better if people express theirself in a suspect thread ( after all if only 5 people who find something broken and not the rest of the playerbase there will be people not happy)

    At this rate the easiest thing is just to open a suspect thread and just stop ignoring people who made excellent posts ( Lameflame, DN, etc). A Tier Leader should listen to the majority despite the fact he sometimes feel something is not broken, the opposite being valid too. And i'm quite sure people prefer a suspect that lasts a month rather than no answers
     
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  38. Oh So Penspin

    Oh So Penspin Hail RNGesus, our Lord and Saviour!

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    I see the council more as something that takes the decision together (or helps the Tier Leader(s) in taking it), rather than a group that decides everything together. Before something is banned, a Suspect Discussion should always be held, so everyone can voice their opinions on the matter.
     
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  39. Funbot28

    Funbot28 Active Member

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    Ya a Shadow Tag suspect is quite deserving at this point. A TL's opinion should not hinder their ability to create a suspect thread (which the majority of the community wants) if they feel that it is not broken. This is a "community" right? which means that experienced players should be making the decisions together and should not be dictated by an inactive TL. This really should be resolved a.s.a.p, as we will continue to prove PO's inactivity if we still proceed at this rate...

    Other things that should be done after ST suspect imo:
    • Baton Pass or Scolipede suspect
    • Mega Metagross retest
    • Mega Sableye Suspect (will explain once ST is dealt with)
     
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2015
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  40. gengar17

    gengar17 someone turn this nothing into gengar

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    are u talking about the oras 1v1 perish song suspect? because i dont see how it's a thing in OU.