Error above was fixed. Also, I will be working on making Philanthropist stealable (this word exists?). EDIT: Philanthropist can now be stolen (Thief will receive 3 coins, but nothing will change for Philanthropist since "he has a lot of money and is donating stuff anyway"). Other changes like new items and price modification will have to wait since they are a bit more drastic to the gameplay.
Well, I'm a new QC member but I've played Shop plenty of times. Time for a review! Creativity- 5/5 The theme revolves around money which is exactly what capitalism is all about. This is the first theme to use a money system (at all) to determine which side wins with the exception of cooperation between unknown teammates. Both the game messages and the roles blatantly describe capitalism which I suppose is your intention. Overall, you've taken an idea that hasn't been incorporated into mafia before and made something that is completely based off of it. Cohesion- 5/5 The opposing sides are clearly defined and there aren't any particular arguments that can be made about whether a side should be combined with another or removed. There are only four unique roles and three of them are tied together through competition for money while one role is a conspirator who can choose to support whomever he/she wants. The sheer simplicity of the game allows easy consistency with all the roles so much as they all are related through money. Craftsmanship- 4/5 All roles in this theme have access to basic commands with the exception of the philanthropist who just gets a free win and the ability to give one side a better advantage. With spawning issues, there are setups where there is an extra worker or an extra thief or any unbalance of the three non-conspirator roles. Difference in role count can only be reasonable if there are less rich people than the other two roles as they already start with plenty of coins which is a huge advantage because killing is easily accessible in one or two nights. Given all players except one philanthropist can buy voting power or killing weapons very early into the game, the game doesn't last very long. Obviously, the riches have the advantage in a quick game due to mass deaths but they lose that benefit in a long game. The theme is fairly lenient with allowing players to employ different varieties of tactics including trolling to some extent. Strategies will obviously not work at some point, namely the situation where a team is completely winning and know who are their enemies. A problem in this section is that it claims that not knowing your teammates justifies your voting or killing them because you didn't bother to inspect anybody. I believe you should incorporate something that discourages random killing/voting such as punishment for team killing or team voting. Penalty on coins is one thing you can do but there are other ways to establish order in the theme. Course- 4/5 With only four roles where one is a conspirator, this game is very easy to understand. The money system might be one thing that players wouldn't grasp immediately. The description helps people who haven't played before so long as they can read their role description which tells them how to earn money and what to use it for. Although people know what they can do, they now need to know what they have to do. People would rather stock up on guns, swords, or badges than "waste" money on inspecting because they are more concerned about surviving by themselves rather than lead their team to victory. Lenses aren't the exact best since you want to protect and inspect one person just to remove the risk of them dying and you wasting coins which opens up vulnerability to yourself. Speakers cause voting riots which identifies the teammates of the person who was revealed (unless they choose to team vote) which essentially gives a big disadvantage to the side of the revealed person. The theme should encourage any tactic to be used rather than focusing on self-sufficiency and discouraging information-hoarding. Plot twists are highly probable as nobody has a definite method of knowing what items somebody has besides badges and shields. Overall, the pace is pretty unstable which makes sense for a Free-for-all theme though lenses could be improved so that people do not hesitate to buy lenses in fear that they were not going to be put to good use. Perhaps allowing people to use then lenses the same night they buy them would help a little bit because people won't be lynched, killed, or risk the person they inspect dying until after the first night. Concept- 4/5 The theme has one key role: philanthropist. The rules are fairly liberal as they give every player the ability to change the game's potential winner. All players except for one can buy whatever they want if they can get enough money by whatever means. Giving almost all the players the opportunity to use multiple commands besides voting allows for everybody to have fun (villagers may feel that they should make use of their only command:voting). As a theme, the simplicity of the game causes people to eventually not want to play it. With only four different roles where three of them are almost the same, a few games or being able to play as all the roles could be enough for it to eventually die. I would suggest adding more roles to the theme in order to keep people playing it for a while. The shopkeeper could be added along with a leader of each side. Total- 22/25
I kinda disagree with this part. I think the theme is praised for both the concept and, of course, the simplicity of the roles. I think adding even more roles would just make things complicated. Adding another role with different actions might start pulling the theme away from its original concept. I also don't think a leader for each is absolutely necessary either. I mean, what exactly would it do? Also, being simple does not eventually cause a theme to die. SI, a very gimmicky and simple theme, is a very popular one because it requires a lot of strategy. I think a command that allows you to see how many coins someone else has could be cool. It could stir up some strategy imo. From there you could predict what your target might choose to buy, and then you could decide what you should buy or use during the night. Or maybe it could be a Thief exclusive command (so then they could decide who they should rob). Just a suggestion.
Wow, lots of things to disagree here. On games where a side spawn with more members than another one, the other team starts with a few more coins. It's the opposite. Games are usually a bit longer than I actually wanted, since there's not always a killing action available. This is the same for pratically all themes. Losing a teammte is already a big enough punishment. Game would just get even slower if I added more since people would be afraid to use their actions at all. And I have no idea what you mean when you say "it claims that not knowing your teammates justifies your voting or killing them". People use Lens more than you imagine. I often buy 2 Lens N1, use them N2 and PM the person claiming to be their teammate (regardless if I actually am). And often that backfires because they also had a Lens and found I was lying. Which could be Speaker user's side itself. Speaker is a risk/reward thing: You can end exposing an opponent and making people naturally lynch them, or you can end doing that to your teammate. People who are not willing to have such risk can simply stick to Lens. Again, people use Dress and Lens a lot more than you imagine. If there's one item that's often overlooked, it's Rich's drugs. Also, having any item usable at the same night you buy it is not possible. Completely wrong. A key role is that role that plays a major part in the theme's concept. Think of Zelda's Link, Kirby's Mike, FF's Kefka, etc. Philanthropist is just a nice bonus. Shop is a theme that doesn't have a single key role since they all are important to the theme's concept. There are plenty of themes with only a few roles and they are still played a lot. Shop even has an advantage over those since you can build your own role the way you want it, so even with few roles there are still a ridiculous amount of possibilities here. Although I'm not against more roles (I commented some ideas on the previous page), I don't think they are necessary yet. And they would also make the already enormous code get even larger :x P.S.: I'm not contesting any of the ratings you gave, I just want to discuss those points more for better feedback.
On the topic of information-hoarding I somewhat agree with @HellobyexD. It isn't a problem in small games because inspecting 2 people can give you omniscience by the end of night 2, which is certainly powerful, especially for thieves. Where I feel like Lenses are wasted is larger games, or really, any game where the Rich are in, partly for the reasons explained above: there are enough chaotic elements that dedicating 3 coins to know whether someone is your enemy is less valuable than shooting first and asking questions later. The other problem is that badge-hoarding is too attractive in big games - it's also popular in small games. Because it serves the dual purposes of defending against lynch and threatening to lynch anyone who doesn't have a badge, it has about the same effect as finding a teammate with whom you can vote as a bloc. The difference is two players would have to inspect each other to confirm they are teammates, which actually costs more than a badge and takes longer to accomplish by almost two nights, whereas knowing teammates has other advantages, especially combined with steal, distract, or kill. Regardless, I still think the price of Badge should be inflated a notch. As for Lens, its value probably degrades with increased size, but it's still useful late game. What's interesting is that everyone has their unique gameplay style. It's a good thing that no one can agree on which items are overpowered or underpowered imo, since it means there is no dominating strategy. I still think dresses are OP in small games but many people think they're terrible. Feel free to continue this discussion, but it's about time this got to Active Themes. Grant Total- 85/100
Miki, I disagree on the part where you said Badge should be pricier. Gun and Badge are both 5 coins. If you were to increase the cost of Badge, that would be saying Badge is better than a gun, which is true in some ways, but not all. Gun can be used to kill someone once,, but can be deflected with a shield or distracted with a dress. Badge can be used to vote out multiple people, but has more cons. Badge can be countered with other badges, groups of people voting, and death. To make this easier to understand, I made this Pros/Cons list. Gun Pros - Kills a player - Private action (night action) - Costs 5 coins - You get it in one night Cons - Can be deflected with a shield - Can be distracted with a dress (Note: You still have a gun after this so this just momentarily stops you) Badge Pros - Stacks up up to 3 - Can be used to lynch multiple people Cons - You will be revealed when you lynch - Can be countered with other badges - Can be countered with people voting wisely - Takes longer to get up to 3 votes
I don't know, some of those cons seem like pros. -Being revealed when you lynch isn't guaranteed since it can be a 3v3 voting situation, in which case it could be any combination of badges on either side of the lynch which causes/prevents it. Even if it does reveal you, that just means you have a Badge. If people think you might be their teammate there's a risk of killing a powerful ally instead of a powerful enemy. -Badges countering other Badges just makes Badges more valuable. Imagine RPS where Rock beats Paper and Scissors but ties against other Rocks. Everyone would always Rock. -Voting wisely, yes, if your faction has the fewest members. Otherwise, it can be foiled by team voting if more people think you're an enemy than an ally. -Takes longer than what to get to 3 votes? I'm not sure what you mean. Buying two guns costs the same time and money. In the time period it takes to gain two Badges/two Guns, you could have lynched at least two players.
I don't really think Badge needs a higher price since there are plenty of restrictions with using it, but if necessary I could try having the first badge for 5 coins and the 2nd one for 6, for example.
I disagree with Fiery Espeon... Me as a player would buy a Badge because it acts as a defend from getting lynch and threaten to lynch... Buy a shield with Badge means you can't die in Night easily and you can't die in Day easily too... Me as a player would not buy a Gun because there are already tons of player buying Guns and shooting people... Let them kill and I just protect myself until very few players remain... If I buy a gun I can be easily voted out in Day and I don't like it... So I feel Badge has greater value than Gun... Gun is offense without defense in Day... Badge is defense until few players stay...
Well I'm very sorry you have things to disagree on. Regarding the spawning, the point is that the side with fewer members starts with more coins, it it not? Games can be long or short given that you give everybody the chance to end the game quickly or slowly. Shields and dresses can be used to make the game longer and it's fine. The philanthropist can choose to donate items to change the speed of the game. About me saying that strategies will not work at some point, I realize it is true for all themes but I just pointed it out. Adding additional punishment for team voting would probably be too pressuring but it gets ridiculous when all the sides begin team voting or team killing because they don't know their partners. Speaking of voting, shouldn't the coins of somebody who gets lynched be distributed to the current players that are alive in that game? Even the voting shows that you want somebody's money but you never actually get it. I don't believe I ever said dresses are not used very often because they are fantastic in being able to block a thief's steal attempt. Lens don't seem as appealing because you may be lynched by an extra badge you could have bought instead. For night kills, it's simple to buy a shield for either yourself or your target. I guess that's why it's the individual's choice to pick what they want to buy so I'll leave it at that. Speakers only cost one extra coin than lens in exchange for a public reveal as well as immediate use. Immediate use is definitely an advantage while the public reveal is a double-edged sword. Ridiculous as it is, speakers will almost always get somebody lynched so speakers are indirectly a killing strategy. The price should increase to 5 coins in my opinion because chances of you getting a teammate killed (rich) is significantly lower than sending a thief or worker to be lynched and death by speakers is arguably better than a sword since it will still work whether your target bought a shield. I said that the philanthropist was the key role in the sense that it had the best game-changing capabilities although it didn't really have to take a side, just stay alive. I took a very broad definition of a key role so my apologies. I understand that adding extra roles will already over complicate the coding but eventually, there can be new roles added. I don't see how you will pull away from the original concept just by adding more roles. It obviously gets more complicated but a theme can always have adjustments. So much as the additional role relates back the ideas of capitalism and has some involvement of money, it won't hurt the theme. Adding leaders for each side was only a suggestion and just an example of some roles that could be added. Adding new roles gives even more possibilities since you can build up new roles that have enhanced abilities which could increase replay value. I don't think SI should be compared to Shop in this case. SI is popular for more than just it's concept: it has numerous players excluding the creator who just like the theme and will start it as many times as possible. That is one thing that should be considered for SI's popularity. Shop currently lacks players that will loyally start it continuously just to promote it's popularity. Also, SI may seem popular but some people have cared to express their dislike for SI being played too much which indicates a drop in replay value. Similarly, any theme will have a lowered replay value if it is started too much.
By this I meant that adding other roles with different actions would stray the theme away from the original concept. The concept is that you gain money and buy items with that money in order to win. Adding more roles is a possibility, but in order for something like that to work, the role would still have to rely on being able to gain money and buy items. Or, at least, something related to money. You fail to explain why SI is so popular. Why exactly do people want to start it so often? SI is a very gimmicky and simple theme. Saying a theme will die out just contradicts your argument here where you say that people want to start SI so often, which is simpler than Shop (in terms of roles). It's not think Shop is dying or unpopular. I honestly enjoy playing it and try to start it as much as possible. I also see it being started a lot.[/QUOTE] But you just said SI is a theme that people want to start so often...You are contradicting your previous argument once again. You are saying Shop isn't started a lot because it doesn't have loyal players who want to start it. Can't you say this for every theme? If everyone gets tired of playing a game, then what is the point in saying that Shop isn't played much?
You don't need to be sorry, that's the point of discussing stuff for different points of view. If you compare Shop to a regular theme, those will usually have at least one player with a nightkill every night, while Shop will rarely get guns as often. This could be an interesting way to encourage people voting more and improve the game's pacing. The downside is that such feature could require an increase in the price of badges, since voting phase would get a lot more important. I often see people not voting even when someone is exposed to avoid getting their alignment too obvious, which I believe it occurs quite often when the number of players on each side is balanced. I believe you meant Gun instead of Sword, so I will reply based on that. The thing is that although Rich has more coins overall, they gain coins more slowly than others (Thief is at the same rate, but they also take coins from others, which works as an offensive action). They also have some other limitations, like not being able to use coins gained at the same turn (this makes them more vulnerable to thieves). Since Speaker is an item exclusive to Rich, I'd rather keep them as 4 coins so they don't overlap with Gun and Badge and end overlooked. Like you said, Speaker can indeed be used for killing tactics, but that only works if you expose someone that you really can lynch, so the Speaker by itself is not going to kill someone, and it can even help other sides at connecting. Since there's more risk involved, I believe keeping it as 4 coins is fair enough for now.
But you just said SI is a theme that people want to start so often...You are contradicting your previous argument once again. You are saying Shop isn't started a lot because it doesn't have loyal players who want to start it. Can't you say this for every theme? If everyone gets tired of playing a game, then what is the point in saying that Shop isn't played much?[/QUOTE] I already said SI's concept explains part of it's popularity. People who want to start it often obviously find the concept more appealing than Shop or another theme. Busting aliens with bunkers backing you up as a laser cannon seems more exciting than buying things from a shop owner to fight others. A theme, simple or not, won't be dying out if it has those loyal fans who will keep it alive. I didn't say that Shop is dying or unpopular but it is not started a lot. In fact, it's not even on the top 10 themes so your enjoyment of the theme may count but it is not started as much as you think. I do mean it that themes aren't started a lot if they don't have loyal players. I doubt most of the themes started are carefully chosen from a list of the themes. People just start themes that fit their preference. I'm assuming you mean people get tired of a theme rather than a game which refers to mafia in general. People play a theme too much for everybody to get tired of it so it makes no sense of a theme that everyone is tired of and rarely played. If everyone gets tired of a theme, they have plenty of other choices. It's not as if one theme that makes everybody bored will ruin the entire mafia system. I also haven't mentioned this either. Usually two possibilities happen after a theme loses it's fame: it becomes removed when statistics reset since it is not played enough or people start replaying the theme after it has been played less and people start missing it. I mean this is your own theme and it is solely up to you to take suggestions. Implementing the changes greatly impacts the theme as a whole so there's no problem with keeping the theme as it is