when i get around to it im probably lowering porygon2 and raising tentacruel one subrank each my opinion of c rank mons are meh at best. i'd never use them but i understand that some players would so... starmie to B+? opinions?
Blissey doesn't/shouldn't be used to wall. It takes advantage of really common switch-ins to support the team (think turbodrum or teams with too much rest). Too bad about reflect, makes sense though. Sing is a really cool move. Light Screen usually isn't that great, which is unsurprisingly what I tend to put Ice Beam/Flamethrower over. It gives up momentum to Snorlax, but no more so than Starmie. Singing on the switch can be useful as well. STalk Lax (not the safest in my experiences), and RoarKou both don't have one-turn recovery and Heal Bell. Again, main idea is support not walling (although perhaps it wasn't that clear from my post). edit: Agree with Tentacruel. Not sure about P2, but I wouldn't be horribly sad to see it drop a sub rank. Could never really get it to perform and it always feels fillerish. Starmie idk. Some older players are really adamant on keeping it higher ranked with how well it spins and checks machamp. Kind of one of those integral elements of some stalls. Twave is cool for making more gimmicky things like zard work. Haven't really made a serious team with it yet, and most times that I face it my opponent sorta lets me boom cloy on it.
Well, the thing is that Miltank does support and walling. It stops a pretty long list of CurseRoarers and mixed Cursers. Starmie also has a few niche walling uses, Machamp being the most obvious. And the issue really is that Miltank and Starmie don't really compete for their switch-ins with other common teammates, whereas Blissey does. There's a cost to bring Blissey in, every time you do it, unless you're running a rather specific team.
if ur dropping starmie ur also dropping missy and umbreon, maybe even forretress too. and then ur dropping rhydon to b. pgon2 to b- is something i agree with.
So if they can both wall a few niche things and provide support, that means they should probably be in the same tier at least. Miltank is great and it can wall curse users, but more often than not it doesn't wall in the sense that it can just blindly switch in. Sleep moves and paraslams tend to have a way of bs'ing past it. Even if you're not walling things, more often than not you force out electrics who won't want to waste their Thunder PP on you, which is great for breaking out of RoarKou spikes loops. Don't get me wrong, in general I think Miltank > Blissey (really depends on team but w/e), but I don't see why Blissey isn't A-. edit: Ok, well maybe not metagame defining (idk I still think A- sounds right). At the very least it needs B+ though.
eggy should be above skarm and cloyster. suicune is waaaaay too low, being below starmie is a disgrace. its definitely high a, maybe even a+. i find to be better than vap. i think nidoking is a bit high, probs high a-. gengar should be a tiny bit higher.
How is Cune better than Vap? Vap is Cune except it trades being a little more killable by Rhydon and Marowak (Tar and Lix still can't touch it, and I'll note that Vap's HPump OHKOs Wak while Suicune's usually doesn't) for being able to kill Lax and (eventually) Electrics. The problem Suicune has is best summed up as "so what?" - yes, Suicune can switch in more easily on some things than Vap can, but it can't capitalise on that.
Putting Nidoking under Steelix and Tyranitar just feels silly. It's pretty much one of the defining characteristics of a spikes-focused offense team (I mean the kind that actively try to force a lot of switches with roar and double switching). It's in a really great speed tier, outpacing pretty much everything bar electrics. Monolax, Zapdos, and Miltank (if something's taken sleep) are usually decent ways to stop it, but outside that there isn't a whole lot. Maybe Suicune and Heracross if you're desperate?? I don't really see the reasoning behind Gengar. It kind of seems fine where it is. Pretty frail, can't switch into much, liability for pursuit trapping, but is really good at bait booming electrics and forcing switches itself. m9m kinda hit the nail on the head with the Suicune v. Vaporeon situation. Putting Egg over one of the most reliable non-Firelax checks and the best spiker in the game doesn't seem right to me. At best Egg might have a slightly better Explosion for reliably baiting electrics, but Cloyster's serves a more defensive purpose anyway. Starmie being one of the most reliable Machamp checks along with being the most consistent spinner is probably a reason to put it over Suicune. Thunder Wave support is also sort of neat so that Snorlax and Electrics don't switch in completely for free, but I've found it can be awkward to fit into a team sometimes when you're sacrificing Machamp-checking potential. edit: For being the most potent ghost and Exeggutor trapper, Houndoom should rise to B-. It faces some competition from Tyranitar (and Umbreon??), but it at least doesn't lose to Egg over half the time and outspeeds Misdreavus. I'd probably sooner use this than kanga fwiw.
looking back, no way that starmie should be at the top of A-. I've come to think it's terrible and will gladly drop it down a few notches. Suicune could also go over Forretress while I'm at it, but that's splitting hairs a bit. Tyranitar can be bought down beneath Nidoking and Steelix (maybe Gengar too), I guess, but Steelix stays above Nidoking for me. Being the best (common) switch in to non-HP Water electrics AND checking Snorlax is a huge role for offense, and that's not factoring in the wallbreaking it does. Nidoking is great at sleeping things that don't want to be slept (bar STalk Zapdos/Suicune/Vaporeon/Snorlax/Heracross!), but afterwards, it loses to every Snorlax set in the game except weird Drum sets and just loses its oomph. edit: maybe miltank to A-
I agree with most of what Isa says here. steelix is nuts good in the spikes game if youre going late. ttar's kinda overrated. @sulcata eggy should be higher due to how incredibly consistent it performs. checks key threats defensively (wak, rhydon, vap) and threatens almost everything offensively depending on moveset. definitely better than skarm. also due to the guides, ppl are hesitant to send zapdos and raikou into eggy. use that to your advantage. oh, and while starmie walls machamp, suicune walls pretty much 90% of the meta if it wants to.
egg over skarmory is worthy of debate but cloyster > exeggutor simply because of spikes being wicked good. calling rhydon a key threat to check is also overstating rhydon heavily (and arguably marowak as well)
I've found egg to work a lot like how isa described nido. Once that sleep is out it loses a chunk of its offensive presence. Having egg as my defensive check to Marowak would suck. Egg is incredibly good and threatening, don't get me wrong, but to put it above one of the most consistent lax checks doesn't seem right. *sits on 90% of the meta It doesn't really do a whole lot back.
Sleep Talk Hera works just fine unless Nido runs Fire Blast. Of course, Sleep Talk Hera is forced out by Skarm and is prime Zapdos bait, so nobody uses it. Well, outspeeding Missy doesn't do very much, since Missy doesn't attack unless it's Thunder Missy and you're Thunder-weak. I guess there's Pain Split Missy but nobody seems to use that. Houndoom isn't better than Tyranitar at trapping Egg, because Egg just Explodes and trades. Tyranitar and Umbreon can survive an Eggsplosion (although Umbreon is crippled by doing so). Also, an anti-Egg/anti-Ghost Tyranitar should really be running Rock Slide/Crunch/Roar/Pursuit, which beats Egg most of the time IIRC (Houndoom has to run a very similar set if it wants to do work vs. Missy, since Roar is necessary to avoid dying). Kanga is gimmicky, though, I'll certainly agree with that. Steelix is better at CurseSubRoar IMO; being hard-walled by Toxic Skarm and Gengar isn't fun. Suicune and Vap can at least be Exploded on. Starmie under Suicune/Forry I can 100% get behind. Steelix over Ttar I agree with. Nido over Tar I'm not 100% sure about. Skarm checks Wak better than Eggy ever did. Rhydon isn't very popular anymore. Skarm also checks Lax, and Egg itself. Not completely, but half of Lax is still bigger than most whole Pokemon because he's so fat. There's also a whole pile of random shit Skarm prevents from doing anything like Espeon/Heracross/Quagsire that's otherwise potentially threatening. And Skarm is really surprisingly versatile; Curse/Toxic/Thief/Sleep Talk are all options. Cloy is just generically on most teams because it means Spikes unless Starmie and Starmie is bad. Boring as hell, certainly, but it gets results. You've got to respect that. Suicune doesn't wall Lax or the Electrics. That's 24% of the meta right there, according to the usage stats. Also either Egg/Gar/Nido or Vap/Missy get past it because Roar and Sleep Talk: pick one.
Sleep Talk heracross is probably the most "consistent" set. It works perfectly as a nidoking counter, but I was more going for "lol using heracross" as the desperate part. Missy can confuse ray/attract ttar (outspeeds) to get a free chance to get out safely. If you are running Crunch on ttar then Missy shouldn't be an issue overall I guess. Houndoom, unlike Tyranitar, doesn't run the risk of Egg killing it without Exploding. With some chip damage, Fire Blast becomes a guaranteed OHKO (46% chance otherwise). The main difference is that Houndoom can actually switch into Egg, even if it's some stun spore variant, while Tyranitar needs some finicky double switching to avoid status. I personally think being able to switch into Egg makes Houndoom a better dedicated trapper; Tyranitar as an overall mon is better for other reasons.
calling rhydon a key threat to check was kinda dumb, i see that now lol, but wak IS a key threat to check. it toxic's them. thats more than relevant enough. an umbreon with rest sleep talk charm growl is something that doesnt do anything back. sure there's st cune that doesnt run toxic too often, but that shit just walls everything that isnt setting up barring electrics. suicune is better than starmie, even though the meta is filled with cloysters right now. @m9m youre not running skarm on offense. eggy is probably your best answer to marowak there (together with cloy, but cloy is easy to chip on and doesnt last long at all). ofc hp bug is a bitch but you can switch it up and send zapdos in sometimes. thats why u pair suicune with raikou, you shut down most mixed sweepers then. ofc u cant have everything, like st cune + roar raikou has vaporeon issues, while roar cune + st kou has nidoking/thundermissy/jolteon/mixtar issues. u can always st both but then bp in general is a big issue. that description fits suicune better.
vap vs cune, despite its similarities, don't work that well in a head to head comparison. who would you rather have on your team? obviously vaporeon, and it's not even close. which has a bigger impact on the metagame as a whole, which pokemon do you keep in mind while team building? suicune, and again, it's not even close. the reason people are hesitant to run dnite, marowak, and especially mixtar is because of suicune. suicune, similar to skarmory, changes your mentality when team building; the stuff he does wall, he REALLY walls. usage statistics will never properly represent this intangible. overall? they're pretty neck and neck. doing an objective heads up comparison between the two is pretty retarded. that said: vap to a, maybe even a- ttar to a- umbreon to b+ missy to b+, although a- is ok too. the "suicune factor" here blissey to b+ jolteon to b+ heracross to b also i think at least internal rankings in SUB-tiers from A onwards should at least be alphabetized, having internal rankings within internal rankings within internal rankings STILL be organized in someway... you might as well use a numeric system.
I'm pretty sure Poliwrath mostly outclassed by Quagsire anyway without any super unique niche, seemingly to fall into D. Muk and Clefable just don't feel right with the other C ranks, particularly Muk. They're both a big step up from ampharos and alakazam. Dunno if anyone could put it into better words (I forgot if I've already beat this subject to death or not). Scizor and Venusaur in C also seem appropriate. Agreeing with borat on simplifying the innermost ratings for sanity purposes. As it stands we basically have a sort of composite numeric list in which some pokemon have been explicitly placed over others while the rest have not (or so it seems to me). the actual serious stuff is here I guess: Vap seems appropriate in A. It's not nearly as "gluey" as the others in A+ and can be extremely potent given support. Not really sure about ttar in A-. Since we don't have a criterion between A and A-, I guess I have to go with "it doesn't fit". A- seems like random support plus potent, slightly unreliable set up sweepers/hole punchers. ttar's versatility, though only one set can be run, ranges around pursuit trapping, cursing, and mixed attacking (meh), which I feel puts it above mons like starmie, suicune, etc. A seems best. If you want to put missy in B+ you could justify it with the flaw of being able to be pursuit trapped with decent success, although that may be overstating pursuit trapping. It's always felt like a very awkward mon though, so I could definitely see it in B+. Agreeing with Blissey to B+. I already talked this to death blah boring stuff. B+ at least but I think it has potential for A- at some future point personally. Fitting it on a team can be awkward which is why for now B+ is the best. idk about Jolteon to B+. I don't think it should really be above Smeargle in the context of full pass. Outside of that it tends to fall on its face and double up on electrics. I'm not sure about Heracross at all. I've had some very mixed results with it on teams which lure skarm into curse explosion lax. Some very positive, some very negative. +1 Megahorn does a very nice chunk to zapdos (helpful if paralyzed) and irrecoverable damage to anything not skarm/steelix. But overall the presence of Zapdos and steels other than skarm make it difficult to support. just my 2 cents
vaporeon simply has no business being in A+. this is coming from someone who put vap on the map. the main argument for ttar being in a- is that.. it's not as good as the stuff in a. it's a worse phazer than steelix. it's a worse offensive option than nidoking. i definitely wouldn't class it above suicune. suicune being in a- is a big reason why ttar belongs there. ttar is a pokemon you take into heavy consideration when team building, to make sure you have all your bases covered. but if you're forced into a position where you actually have to use ttar, then suddenly you're restricting yourself to 4 moves, in which case it's usually pretty lackluster. if suicune gets moved to A, then ttar can stay in A. one or the other. smeargle is the better passer, but jolteon is clearly the better pokemon. you can pass growths too. doubling up on electrics has never been a bad thing. B is a weird rank to begin with. i'd actually argue that just about everything in B can be moved around within the tier. every pokemon is notorious for being "situational". there are definitely a number of teams that fall completely flat to a tentacruel. if we were to nitpick specifically on the heracross case, both dragonite/rhydon has the potential to shine in some matchups while being lackluster in others. but even in a best case scenario, heracross is mediocre. if you get lucky, you can cursemegahorn past zapdos. how often this happens i'm not sure, but the curse set is the only set with potential upsides imo.
It's over 25% if Zapdos is switching into Heracross and is running Thunder/HPIce/RestTalk. That's a lower bound; if you'd like I could run the full calculations, but that might take a couple of days.
Well, Missy's harder to Pursuit than (non-Perish-Song) Gengar inasmuch as it deals with Umbreon better. Missy's real flaw is that its best set is banned.
Well, tyranitar is usually the go-to pursuiter, and dynamic punch/hypnosis at least gives Gengar a fighting chance. Umbreon is ok as a pursuiter, but ttar is by far more common from what I've seen. All missy can hope for is Confuse Ray or Attract shenanigans to not die. Most ttar are roar so I'd think it takes quite a bit of luck to take it down via perish trapping. I'm not really keen on B+ missy anyway; it's fine in A-. I was only stating a potential justification.
Thing is that when Tar Roars Missy out, it abdicates trapping it. Misdreavus can't take out Tyranitar, but Tyranitar can't take out Misdreavus particularly well either - at least, not in the same way it can take out Gengar. It can come in and trade pretty reliably if it's got Crunch (we're talking about a quite specialised set at this point), but actually killing Missy without Tar dying is rather hard.
I really dont thibk Charizard should be B-. Its Belly Drum set is a really good wallbeaker. It 1hko Skarmory, Steelix with fire blast, while EQ after a Bdrum 1 or 2hko almost anything in this tier. Rock Slide let you kill Zapdos. I think it should be at least B+.
It's definitely not better than Quagsire who's a much more reliable drummer and can even check electrics like nobody's business. Dragonite, Heracross, and Rhydon are much more reliable than something like Charizard. Don't get me wrong, Charizard's decent, but there's just too much that can go wrong between status, speed ties, and so on. You fail to OHKO things like Suicune, Cloyster, Snorlax, Porygon2, Vaporeon, Machamp, Marowak, etc., which will really come back to haunt you. To actually properly use zard to sweep you need to get plenty of chip damage on the opponent and then either spread paralysis or boom on electrics. If you try something like PolkaDot Bow DoubleEdge/Hyper Beam then for obvious reasons you're trading off all your sweeping potential for possible wall breaking potential. Again, overall Charizard's margin-of-error is just much smaller than that of B/B+. Most things in B/B+ either contribute significantly through chip damage, check very important Pokemon (Snorlax/Electrics), or provide some niche, easier to set up support like BP.
Yeah, the thing you've got to remember about Charizard is that it doesn't run Rest and hence you get one or two shots at Drumming in the whole game. Quag and Lax can Rest, and Clefable has Moonlight. Also, everybody knows that Charizard is going to be running Belly Drum and it doesn't really have any "gotcha" setup baits - Skarmory and Steelix might be OHKOed unboosted, but trying to Drum on them risks the opponent just calling your bluff and phazing (or, in the case of Rock Slide Steelix, KOing you), while Miltank speedties and isn't OHKOed by +6 Earthquake (there's Egg, I suppose, but even it's got a good chance of surviving the Fire Blast to KO with Psychic). Quag, by contrast, is a "gotcha" on Zapdos and Sleep Talk Raikou; even if they predict Drum, they can't actually stop it. I'd say those two traits at least make up for the Skarmory issue. Borat's a fan of Hyper Beam Charizard, though, I will note.
Considering only 37% of teams have Skarmory (which is actually lower than that of both Zapdos and Raikou), that actually isn't half as bad as I would've thought. Don't forget about Exeggutor though, which can always switch in against it too.