Mario

Discussion in 'Review' started by Micaiah, Jul 8, 2014.

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  1. IceKirby

    IceKirby A.K.A. RiceKirby

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  2. RudeStyle

    RudeStyle A year late x D

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  3. Joeypals!!

    Joeypals!! Don't you worry 'bout a thing~

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    I'm with you on Bowser Jr. and Kamek, those are both iconic enemies. RAWK HAWK and Cackella... a majority of people probably don't know who they are, myself included. As for the Starlow + Rosalina thing, one lives in the cosmos while the other is a rather tiny creature along the lines of Navi, but unlike Navi, it's a far less seen character.

    The reason Rice and I keep bringing up Donkey Kong and Yoshi is because their abilities are unflavorful and Donkey Kong, at this point, deserves his own theme and shouldn't be included with other themes (unless it's SSBB ofc). The only time he has been seen helping someone in a Mario game is when you land on his space in Mario Party, which honestly should not be enough to justify a spot as an ally while in all other games, he has either been a direct enemy or a competitor (Sports, Kart, Super Smash *insert word(s)*, Sluggers, etc), never an ally. Like I said before, his inclusion with the village feels like a way of trying to make the village more recognizable. Yoshi is literally a free hit point and there are more Toad than Yoshi, so why is Yoshi a mayor? Likewise, Donkey Kong is a rather violent creature that has actually punched the moon. That screams "vigilante" to me, not "bodyguard".


    Anyway, just to sum it up, when I think of a Mario theme, I think of these characters. Keep in mind this isn't the exact game I thought up with Karp, but it sticks pretty close to what a majority of people would know.

    Village: Mario, Luigi, Peach, Daisy, Rosalina, Toadsworth, Toad, Yoshi, Birdo, Toadette, Plessie, Sprixies, Pianta

    Mafia 1: Bowser, Bowser Jr., Koopalings, Kamek, Boom Boom, Pom Pom

    Mafia 2-4: Include other enemies Mario has faced. Cheep Cheep, Angry Sun, Bullet Bill, Chomper, Pokey, Goomba, Koopa, Koopa Troopa, Blooper, Big Bertha, Porcupuffer, Wiggler, Lakitu, Spiney, Piranha Plant... etc

    Mafia 5: Tantanga (guy has been mentioned numerous times and quite frequently recently)

    Consp: Shy Guy

    There's plenty of memorable enemies, you just have to explore the enemy base a little. And note, in that example, there's no use of Wario or any real spinoff series (unless you count Galaxy for Rosalina), just main series. (Edited in Pianta and Birdo: I had Pianta in mind, just couldn't think of the name off the top of my head and simply forgot to list Birdo even though I thought I had)
     
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2014
  4. Abdelrahman

    Abdelrahman I'm fourteen now

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    From what I played I think this theme is pretty balanced in big games, has good flavour, really enjoyable, I enjoyed it mostly and overall I think it's a pretty good theme.

    However, the small game is really misbalanced and isn't enjoyable at all, so yeah, there's that.
     
  5. A Random Llama

    A Random Llama Llama

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    It looks like it'll be pretty dang sweet but yea.... DK as villy bothers me too. If anything i think he should be more of a solo role. He just doesnt fit in with my idea of characters when someone says mario and friends. But other than that really the theme looks really cool and im excited to play it.
     
  6. Joeypals!!

    Joeypals!! Don't you worry 'bout a thing~

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    Just going to touch base on this in one giant post so that way, I don't have to repeat myself over and over again.

    Balance - As a few of us have said, as far as roles1 is concerned, with a watcher/stalker, the game is not only bland but highly unbalanced, as it does not take much to find the ghosts. Roles2 is slightly more exciting, but with only a chance to pierce protection, the theme still highly falls into the village's favor. Roles3 is when it takes a left turn and goes for the Mafia with Cackella coming into play, the role becoming the most vital role in the spawnlist. Should Cackella die, village has a pretty good shot of winning whereas if it stays for a few turns, Cackella is pretty much ensured victory. roles4 and 5 follow a similar trend, but with more x-fire chance. That being said however, roles4 and 5 still favor the Mafia in many ways, although Wario's side is pretty much dead weight.

    Unique roles - Cackella is pretty much it, but like I said before, it highly reminds me of Olimar, just lazy and mafia-sided. Everything else is either recycled (down to RAWK HAWK even copying Mence's votes) or simply too plain.

    Flavor - I can't really argue in terms of "This is a Mario character" and "This isn't a Mario character", so I'll argue in terms of abilities. First off, Daisy should be in a Mario theme eons before MC Ballyhoo is. He's been in ONE game, and one of the worst Mario Parties at that (9 tops the list, but 8 is pretty damn close) whereas Daisy has had an adventure about saving her and has been in every side game since (Kart, Party, Tennis, Golf, Basketball, Sports Mix, etc). Some of the abilities, as stated before, are highly unorthodox for a few of these roles. Rosalina is one of the most knowledgable people in the Mario universe, moreso than Toadsworth. So why isn't she an inspector? Likewise, Starlow gives plenty of advice (and warnings) to Mario and Luigi, so much so that instead of a Spy (basically makes Starlow a repainted Navi), I'd make it an exposer instead. Speaking of shifting, Luigi may have his Mansion, but otherwise is a big scardy cat whereas Daisy is a self-proclaimed tomboy not afraid of fighting, thus making her seem like a much more obvious choice for a vigilante if Donkey Kong were to stay a bodyguard (I'll say it for the umpteenth time, in this generation of gaming he does NOT BELONG in a Mario theme. Also, Yoshi is a free hitpoint... literally. That's what a bodyguard is in Mafia). Then there's the issue of "include all branches of Mario or not". For those of us that don't know the side characters, myself included, the flavor with them is completely lost on me, considering I'd be most wary of Bowser when it appears that Boos and Cackella are much bigger of a threat than he is. Speaking of Bowser, he's a discount Phosphora if I've ever seen one, except he can't beat bodyguards whilst she can. I'd rather see a Mario theme stick to the more central, iconic characters that a majority of people would know. Also, Mario is known to have all sorts of cool powers to help him along the way... all of which are absent. Probably still locked up with Daisy in Sarasaland.

    Other comments - I think most of the praise for this theme comes from the fact that it's a Mario theme, just excited to play it after a Mario theme has been gone for ages. Am I saying do away with your excitement? No, be as excited as you want, but also don't settle. Cast aside the hype for a moment and think, "is this the best kind of Mario theme, in terms of everything, that we can get". My personal answer is no, and I personally believe that the main push for this theme in terms of praise is Mario theme hype. The theme is OK at best and at this point, I'm kinda tired of seeing mediocre themes pass review. No offense to either of the authors but this theme simply does not cut it when you get down to it, whether or not you want to hype it. In terms of a Mario theme, I'd rather see one that focuses on the most central characters and enemies in the series and actually utilizes the many abilities introduced to the games. This theme simply does not do it for me.
     
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2014
  7. Sky Sentinel

    Sky Sentinel You see?

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    Even in Mario vs. Donkey Kong series, Donkey Kong is Mario's friend. They have a toy company together! He just keeps getting jealous about Pauline or whatever. They have no more than a friendly rivalry and considering Donkey Kong's clear heroic/good alignment, he deserves a spot on the heroic/good side. If you really, really want me to explain it a bit more, I'll write something like "Mario needed your help and offered you a ton of bananas!" in the help message.
    "toad",
    "toad",
    "gadd",
    "brain",
    "geno",
    "boo",
    4v2, which is not unbalanced. One kill, then 3v2, easy setup for a lie. If anything it's balanced more towards ghosts.

    then two Toads spawn, which is really just so Rookie and Popple both spawn together, making it sixv2v1, with the 1 being Brain (pierces, inspect). However, I can (will/did) switch a toad and Rookie to make rookie (and thereby roles2) spawn at 8 making small games max of fivev2, which is still not unbalanced. Instantly forces novote at six and then ghost can fake as PR (or kill both and easy snag a win)
    Need i remind you that vanilla gets up to 17v3 and mafia wins the majority of games, nonpeak for this theme is still just generally baseless rands (with a stalker and watcher that can confuse each other easily), fivev2 or even sixv2 is in no way unbalanced. Plus there's a little thing called lying which lets the ghosts pretend to be PRs and get the wrong people lynched.

    About the fact that it's not very enjoyable, it's a nonpeak version of the theme, it's quite hard to make it as enjoyable as the full theme. If you have any suggestions for a different setup that would make it more enjoyable for you, I'd be happy to look into it.
     
  8. Joeypals!!

    Joeypals!! Don't you worry 'bout a thing~

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    That's the other thing I want to bring up to the reviewers; ignorance, specifically with Sky as Selena has been sitting behind the scenes.

    In post #80, IceKirby posted this and it had me thinking about the situation as a whole.

    And he's 100% right on that, Sky has said "no" to a majority of suggestions without giving much support to it. The most support he's given for a point was in post #88, but that was one game. Since when does a single game outweigh over 20 years of history? This whole ignorance is summed up early on page 1, when Sky posted that he'd start ignoring us due to the fact that we kept pushing an idea we were opposed to.

    And, for the most part, he has. He's ignored me entirely, even though I keep trying to critique the theme, and is starting to ignore Rice. Most obvious examples of ignoring? Post #87 to post #88 and post #71 to posts #72 and #75.

    The way Sky Sentinel is acting, in my opinion, is along the lines of an 8 year old. He only embraces what he wants and throws a fit of some nature, plus let's not forget he seems to be unable to elaborate on anything. Don't believe me? Look at themes that he's reviewed, very minimal work.

    I hope this post, along with post #87, is taken into account by the reviewers when they go to accept or decline this theme.
     
  9. RudeStyle

    RudeStyle A year late x D

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    http://pokemon-online.eu/threads/zombies.28224/#post-399219

    :I b o p
     
  10. IceKirby

    IceKirby A.K.A. RiceKirby

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    Joeypals!! likes this.
  11. RudeStyle

    RudeStyle A year late x D

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    Implying i implied that. ._. If you had read the quote i picked out, it was to make a point that he does not put minimal effort into his review and grammar/spelling is a vital part of a theme because if you cannot understand the theme how can you possibly PLAY the theme.

    and for now this discussion ends. We must keep on topic of the actual theme.
     
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2014
  12. Joeypals!!

    Joeypals!! Don't you worry 'bout a thing~

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    That's one example out of how many he's done? You got me there, but the majority of reviews are minimalist, and, as he's told me in the past, is usually too lazy to actually review the theme.
     
  13. Windblown

    Windblown sable knight

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    people are still pushing the DK to BG bandwagon when the theme author already disagrees???????

    I'm so tired of hearing complaints about the flavour of this theme, small games as illustrated by Sky are fine. 4v2 is a good position for mafia if you're any competent at lying or tricking village as mafia...

    sorry for lack of proper quote tags

    "Balance - As a few of us have said, as far as roles1 is concerned, with a watcher/stalker, the game is not only bland but highly unbalanced, as it does not take much to find the ghosts."

    addressed above

    " Roles2 is slightly more exciting, but with only a chance to pierce protection, the theme still highly falls into the village's favor."

    talked to Sky on server about it, should be updating with changes soon. not so hard to get things done if you bug other people if a theme author won't listen to you!

    " Roles3 is when it takes a left turn and goes for the Mafia with Cackella coming into play, the role becoming the most vital role in the spawnlist. Should Cackella die, village has a pretty good shot of winning whereas if it stays for a few turns, Cackella is pretty much ensured victory. roles4 and 5 follow a similar trend, but with more x-fire chance. That being said however, roles4 and 5 still favor the Mafia in many ways, although Wario's side is pretty much dead weight."

    If you're going to complain about flavour all day long, you might as well spell Cackletta correctly. Also:
    (21:36:03) Windblown: does cackletta have
    (21:36:03) Windblown: a BG
    (21:36:06) Windblown: on their team
    (21:36:54) Sky Sentinel: no

    not exactly invincible. Cackletta is a high priority target much like Kefka / Ganondorf/ Hades / whoever you want to pull from other mafia themes, a smart village can probably find them, and mafia can xfire them. if they had some active staying power, they'd be in danger of needing nerfs, but they're much like Ultimecia who can get locked down if they're found out or just bopped early in general.

    "Unique roles - Cackella is pretty much it, but like I said before, it highly reminds me of Olimar, just lazy and mafia-sided. Everything else is either recycled (down to RAWK HAWK even copying Mence's votes) or simply too plain."

    god forbid a scaling mafia boss is unoriginal, a lot of the popular themes have nothing like a role that evolves over time. Rawk Hawk spawns super late and it's not very hard to change the arbitrarily large number, a revealing daykill is perfect for his flavor, at least it's more relevant than Mence.

    "Flavor - I can't really argue in terms of "This is a Mario character" and "This isn't a Mario character", so I'll argue in terms of abilities. First off, Daisy should be in a Mario theme eons before MC Ballyhoo is. He's been in ONE game, and one of the worst Mario Parties at that (9 tops the list, but 8 is pretty damn close)"

    I wasn't aware opinion = fact in this case, also it's perfectly fine to have a RECENT Mario Party representative in the theme as the exposer role which fits him very well

    "whereas Daisy has had an adventure about saving her and has been in every side game since (Kart, Party, Tennis, Golf, Basketball, Sports Mix, etc)."

    I told Sky that it wouldn't be unreasonable to put her in as a role, he just didn't have anything in mind to put her as specifically because other people can fit the current roles better.

    "Some of the abilities, as stated before, are highly unorthodox for a few of these roles. Rosalina is one of the most knowledgable people in the Mario universe, moreso than Toadsworth. So why isn't she an inspector?"

    it's not like Goombario's tattle ability is basically a mario pokedex for Paper Mario, but if you want to replace one smart character as insp with another smart character then be my guest. Personally I think the current insp is more than okay, as the Tattle flavour fits in with the type of inspector he is

    " Likewise, Starlow gives plenty of advice (and warnings) to Mario and Luigi, so much so that instead of a Spy (basically makes Starlow a repainted Navi), I'd make it an exposer instead."

    warnings are basically hax? why would an exposer reveal impending danger when it's coming?
    (21:51:46) Sky Sentinel: i referenced navi in her help message
    (21:51:51) Sky Sentinel: because she's tiny and annoying

    " Speaking of shifting, Luigi may have his Mansion, but otherwise is a big scardy cat whereas Daisy is a self-proclaimed tomboy not afraid of fighting, thus making her seem like a much more obvious choice for a vigilante"

    might as well make DK the vigilante if we're going with a scale of manliness for being a vigilante. what's Daisy going to kill people with, a golf club? at least the poltergust was a relevant weapon in Luigi's Mansion

    "if Donkey Kong were to stay a bodyguard (I'll say it for the umpteenth time, in this generation of gaming he does NOT BELONG in a Mario theme. Also, Yoshi is a free hitpoint... literally. That's what a bodyguard is in Mafia)."

    that's a meatshield, not a protector.

    " Then there's the issue of "include all branches of Mario or not". For those of us that don't know the side characters, myself included, the flavor with them is completely lost on me, considering I'd be most wary of Bowser when it appears that Boos and Cackella are much bigger of a threat than he is."

    I have no idea about some of the characters you mentioned in the above post, I could say the same from my viewpoint of Mario knowledge; point is, a lot of it is subjective and I'd rather have Mario bosses over stock enemies

    " Speaking of Bowser, he's a discount Phosphora if I've ever seen one, except he can't beat bodyguards whilst she can."

    wasn't aware Phosphora can become an all-mafia conspirator, might as well say everyone is ripping off the aliens of Space Invaders cause of the /kill2.

    " I'd rather see a Mario theme stick to the more central, iconic characters that a majority of people would know. Also, Mario is known to have all sorts of cool powers to help him along the way... all of which are absent. Probably still locked up with Daisy in Sarasaland."

    more abilities =/= better, a daykill is already high enough on the power list in terms of PR capabilities

    "Other comments - I think most of the praise for this theme comes from the fact that it's a Mario theme, just excited to play it after a Mario theme has been gone for ages. Am I saying do away with your excitement? No, be as excited as you want, but also don't settle. Cast aside the hype for a moment and think, "is this the best kind of Mario theme, in terms of everything, that we can get". My personal answer is no, and I personally believe that the main push for this theme in terms of praise is Mario theme hype. The theme is OK at best and at this point, I'm kinda tired of seeing mediocre themes pass review. No offense to either of the authors but this theme simply does not cut it when you get down to it, whether or not you want to hype it. In terms of a Mario theme, I'd rather see one that focuses on the most central characters and enemies in the series and actually utilizes the many abilities introduced to the games. This theme simply does not do it for me."

    a Mario theme was always going to be difficult to make because of the sheer amount of material in the universe, I personally don't like the Mario universe that much but I still think it's a solid theme. I don't think the authors are trying to hype it if hype is the thing you're trying to do with KI, I'm pretty sure they just submitted a theme.

    I can't seriously discredit a blanket statement like "this theme just doesn't cut it" or "this theme isn't utilizing abilities" cause I have nothing particular to argue against, the amount of allies for Mario make it quite the PRfest imo and out of anything I'd rather have more variety in the mafia

    IMPORTANT SIDE NOTE FOR BOWSER cause I thought his team was weak against the lynch phase and Bowser needed help staying till late game:
    (22:11:02) Windblown: 1-shot lynchproof pls
    (22:11:05) Sky Sentinel: okay
    (22:11:08) Sky Sentinel: i will do it Windblown

    Accept [1]

    EDIT:
    I'm still tired of having to act as the middleman about changing some shit for this theme because the author is getting tired of people making repeated complaints about things he won't budge about but at the same time he won't address legitimate complaints about balance in intermediate size games until I have to badger him about it
     
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2014
  14. IceKirby

    IceKirby A.K.A. RiceKirby

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    I will be extremely annoying here (like I have been doing in other threads too, including to my own themes), but I'd like to see your actual review for this theme. Rebutting Joey's arguments is not a reason to approve or decline a theme. You need to properly explain why you approved it, or it will feel like you are doing so to annoy Joey (which I know you are not doing, but you still need an actual review about the theme, not about Joey's post).
     
  15. Joeypals!!

    Joeypals!! Don't you worry 'bout a thing~

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    And who's forcing you to do this? No one, you choose to be the middleman in all this because Sky doesn't feel like making a legitimate argument as to why things are a certain way and not another, such as why Yoshi isn't the BG and the true reason why Yoshi wasn't in a Mario theme in the first place (I'm sure there's a better reason than "I just don't like Yoshi", but if there isn't, add that to the list of reasons why I don't like this theme)
     
  16. Windblown

    Windblown sable knight

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    If you really want me to go formal, I'll do it.

    Theme Premise: It's about Mario stomping on all the mafia, which is what you do in the games when you get down to it. Village has standard PR lineup with unique inspector role in Goombario. I am personally okay with vanilla village roles because I like focusing on my mafia's capabilities, and this way you can get your PRs coordinated easier because it takes less time to understand what you would have to do if you had multiple abilities. If I really have to justify this, go look at Myth where is nothing really unique about their inspector, daykiller, exposer, BG, PL, mayor, or neighbour outside of Apollo's reveal of daykiller, and Heracles was just a new addition.

    As for the mafia, it's important in my opinion to give them various strengths so based on the way PRs perform or get picked off one mafia might perform better than the others. For Cackletta's crew it's all about staying power with Cackletta herself becoming a voting juggernaut come the late stages of the game; for the Ghost Mafia they are all about posing an active threat to Mario with the ever present danger of a pierce kill taking Mario down; with the randomized mechanics of their pierce, Mario players might claim thinking they can get lucky with %s so it doesn't play at all like FF's Cloud where if you kill d1 you'll just get picked off by Kefka n2. Bowser now has his much-needed staying power in a 1-shot lynch proof once Sky updates it, as Kamek is able to provide support with her BG and ability to morph villagers onto their side for some more auxiliary voting power. If that isn't enough, Bowser could leech onto another winning mafia team to turn the tide of a close game.

    Balance: Roles1 is good. Inspector is the only role that can give concrete results, and that still doesn't mean a mafia can't fakeclaim, but the point is that there's no inspector (OR BG to provide safe claims) in the small role list, something I really like because watcher and stalker can only provide imperfect results, not to mention if one mafia pulls a mislynch they can win the game. It's fast action that requires mafia to be fast on their feet and for the village PRs to be confident and convincing in their reveals of their action results.

    Roles2 needed work. I told Sky that Rosalina was very powerful in games around this size because she can still lock down a mafia side which makes it easy for Mario to not really have to worry about Brain piercing through DK's BG, so a countermeasure was for the other mafia (Popple) to ignore PLs instead so PRs can't stop anything. Village still had a buttload of PRs, so I suggested for Brain to be immune to stalk (iirc) because Gadd popped up at a time where Brain was weakest, at 10, because he was alone without any extra votes or voteshield and with only an inspect to help him out. Without his kills being stalked and no inspector find him out, he should last longer assuming no xfire.

    Roles3 seems fine to me with the massive PR ability pool and voting power countered by Cackletta being a huge threat (and Yoshi being an important PR to guard if it comes to that), not to mention the addition of a 3rd mafia team who can either xfire a lot or just completely decimate village numbers. Bowser and Kamek should be switched in spawn, that's an issue Sky should have changed by now. So Bowser by now has a couple of sides he can win with, which is good because a two-man mafia team that isn't that strong at 18 might have a problem winning. Vigilante coming late is good as village really doesn't need a killing role until about the 20ish mark anyways, the extra kill is hard to use responsibly.

    Roles4 and 5 are hard to interpret balance wise, not to mention I've hardly seen any games at that size.

    Flavour: Controversial section, but if you want a review then this is an integral part. Having Mario as the central PR is understandable, he is the face of the series.

    I'm not going to justify the DK pick as BG cause that's not my job, it's been argued to verbatim, and I really don't have a problem because I've imagined DK as BG ever since SSBB's old version.

    Peach as neighbour is fine as Sky didn't want the same old mayor Peach from BM's theme or PL Peach from SSBB (note that the comparison is fine here because DK isn't SSBB's BG anymore, so we're not repeating roles through different themes).

    I have no idea about the world of Super Mario Galaxy but Rosalina is an okay choice for a PL, not only are we reinforcing the gender stereotype as apparently she has these bubbles that she traps people in? I'm taking Sky's word for it because it's a minor concern in my eyes.

    Luigi in the vigilante slot makes him the counterpart to Mario's daykilling, and as they're brothers, it vibes well with me. Also, Poltergust helps justify this slot too.

    Geno is here because he's the Mario RPG representative - fine by me. I couldn't find anything in the wiki to support his watch power, but he was sent by a higher power according to the wiki, so I guess he acts as a watcher for the world in some manner? (In case you haven't noticed, I'm trying hard to properly justify the flavour when I don't think it's that much of an issue)

    Same for Gadd. Inventors don't really stalk or follow people around, although he has the capability to invent something to fit these purposes.

    Yoshi as mayor is something that Sky won't budge on, but he didn't want the cliche pick of Toadsworth (or Peach as mentioned above). Although Yoshi -> mayor isn't exactly something I'd get the mayor slot is just something you put extra votes on. The only viable alternative you could put here I guess would be Daisy, who is probably less important than Yoshi in terms of being related to Mario games.

    MC Ballyhoo fits the role of an exposer well, as well as representing the Mario Party games.

    Apparently Starlow's role is similar to Navi, so having them as a spy works fine.

    Going on to mafia. Having something other than Boo/King Boo is fine, idk where the Brain came from but the inspect fits his title. Pierce kill is more of a gameplay addendum rather than flavour. Being looked at in game stops him, but PLs already distract mafia, so that aspect of Boos is kinda made redundant.

    Cackletta's side - she has an attack that allows her to clone herself temporarily - I guess that's close enough to scaling voting power. This is more of a gameplay issue, once again. Fawful's daykill message taps into his personality (I HAVE CHORTLES!). Popple just seems like the goon even though they get hax cause the other two are stronger than them.

    Bowser supreme king of evil - winning with all bad sides is okay. Two kills is Bowser-like. Kamek's morph is in character, BG is more of a game play add. Bowser Jr's masking identity is exactly what he does in Sunshine.

    Wario seems to be synonymous with poison in the world of mafia, Waluigi can protect his brother? Okay. Ashley's shrink % chance is a reference to her spells only working 40% of the time, her 2 votes comes from Red her partner.

    There.

    EDIT: When people are getting into conflicts about themes, guess who's in charge of dealing with that? Barring the sMAs, me for now. Either the rest of the QC assigned to this theme are dead, or they don't want to get into having to deal with all this. Believe me, I had to take a while to address all the concerns not to mention the Yoshi/DK thing still going on, which I can't spend all my time on, let alone all my time on this theme.

    Excuse my poor flavour critique but you wouldn't really need something like that for a theme like Fruit, or a theme where I have no idea how the characters would be if I didn't watch the show/anime/play the game (DN, RO, etc)
     
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2014
  17. Joeypals!!

    Joeypals!! Don't you worry 'bout a thing~

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    She has a spin attack and tells two stories throughout all of Super Mario Galaxy, idk where he got the idea that she uses bubbles... Whatever, that's besides the point, I still feel that this theme (ignoring the railroading that went on) is average at best. It's not really inventive in terms of different gameplay, abilities are just grouped in a different way, and usually at the sacrifice of what some characters actually do for the sake of filling the PR list. And since when does MC Ballyhoo represent all the Mario Party games? He didn't show up for 9 after appearing in 8 and if anything, when I think of Mario Party, my mind first turns to Eldstar from Mario Party 5 (and Paper Mario coincidentally enough).
     
  18. IceKirby

    IceKirby A.K.A. RiceKirby

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    Flavour is important, especially on themes based on an existing universe, and even more on a theme based on of the most well known fictional characters in the world.
    People wouldn't pay attention to themes like Zelda or Kirby if they didn't work that part well, since the original source has a coherent world, so players also expect that from the theme. Fruits is more like a joke-based flavour, as the summary itself makes it clear, but a theme like this one requires a better attention to it.

    One argument that I find not simply bad, but absolutely terrible is that some roles have been deliberately chosen to not have a more fitting ability to "not look like that other theme" (especially Peach and Toadsworth). It's a childish reason that can only hurt a theme like it did to this one, as it can been seen by how some roles had some weird explanations to their abilities, while others like were not even made (Mayor, before the addition of Yoshi) due to the sheer stubborness of not replicating another theme.
    Using another theme as a reference is absolutely normal. Lots of themes have done that in the past without any issue, and often because those are the most fitting choice for a role. Restricting yourself from using a role only because it's similar to another theme is likely going to give birth to awkward roles, so I don't think the "I don't want to repeat that theme" argument is acceptable at all.
     
  19. RudeStyle

    RudeStyle A year late x D

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    Accept[2]

    I've explained my reasons in previous posts but lets do this again, I like the flavor - it features different characters from different Mario series, like starlow/rawk hawk/cackletta instead of just the same basic characters. Donkey Kong has lost any presence of villainy and is more of a friendly rival at best which has been shown through the various spin offs in Mario Kart/sports mix etc. Donkey Kong just seems a better fit to be a BG than Yoshi. Balance is fine, a few users has said about non-peak but if that is really a problem it can be easily sorted.
    Windblowns long post made me cry
    So Good job with handling this theme n.n
     
  20. Joeypals!!

    Joeypals!! Don't you worry 'bout a thing~

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    I'm still confused on the whole Donkey Kong > Yoshi thing as the BG. Besides the whole behind-the-scenes BS which I've alluded to multiple times and Daisy not being in the theme over MC Ballyhoo, it's my biggest issue with the theme flavor-wise. I cannot recall one time, outside of Mario vs. Donkey Kong: Minis March Again and maybe stuff including teams in the side games (but that's the computer's doing, not natural), that Donkey Kong has blatanty helped Mario like every and every single other village character has whereas Yoshi has been there for a very long time now, helping Mario overcome certain obstacles and even letting Mario survive an extra hit (albeit this can be regained by hopping back on), a very useful utility. Donkey Kong is an anger-induced ape that is either attacking something or is a competitor, while Yoshi is a lovable companion that lets Mario ride along on his way to defeat Bowser.

    And to prove the free hit point concept more, let's think about a game of default for a minute. The Inspector claims and the Bodyguard protects them. Without the Pretty Lady screwing up, this allows the Inspector to live at least one day longer than the Bodyguard, similar to how Yoshi allows to Mario to survive one more hit. When has Donkey Kong ever done that for Mario?
     
  21. Veteran Padgett

    Veteran Padgett TFT Main Developer Developer

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    The theme looks good on paper, although I don't know how Kamek will fare when it spawns by itself. Unfortunately the windata only shows 6 plays so there isn't any telling if there are balance issues except for what you can find by looking at the roles and spawn list. I managed to play a smaller sized game though (Geno and Gadd spawned, don't remember the exact size) and it seemed fine. It would help if you updated the OP to match recent changes to the roles and spawn list.

    I don't see what the confusion is when Sky Sentinel stated right here on Page 1:

    Yet you've accused Sky of ignoring your posts. The only purpose for Mafia Review is for people to give suggestions to the theme authors on how to make a theme better. It is up to the theme authors to choose what to implement and to make their theme enjoyable. If there was a major problem with a theme that I pointed out to someone and they chose to ignore me, then their theme can fail and I wouldn't even care because it was their decision. Giving an argument as to why a change would be good or bad is one thing, but there is no reason to get butthurt that you didn't get to make a Mario theme and that another person's theme isn't being made the way you want it to, then drag on a discussion for 3 pages about as minor a flavor issue as whether or not Donkey Kong or Yoshi should be the bodyguard in a Mario flavored theme (Donkey Kong was the bodyguard in SSBB and I don't think anyone complained). Not only is it disrespectful to the theme authors and downright annoying, it's harder for more serious theme issues to be taken care of when every 3 or 4 posts is a contentless, attention-seeking post about things which will have a minimal impact on the theme or are even completely unrelated.
     
    Sky Sentinel likes this.
  22. Joeypals!!

    Joeypals!! Don't you worry 'bout a thing~

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    Thank you for calling my critiques of the theme "contentless" and "attention-seeking" when I've been stuffing my posts with detailing, ignoring the fact that IceKirby has been on the exact same boat as me the entire time. If I'm going to be treated with either scrutiny or ignorance for trying to look at a theme and critique it, then I guess there's no use for me posting in this theme, now is there?

    EDIT: I'm sorry, but I have stuffed multiple posts filled with how I feel about the theme in terms of flavor, in terms of balance, and in terms of interesting mechanics. The reason why I have to keep repeating myself? Sky Sentinel is still mad at me for trying to push Yoshi as the BG when Sky Sentinel HATES Yoshi, which shouldn't matter anyway because it's the franchise, not the franchise through your eye. If I'm attention-seeking with honest reviews, then so be it. I'll be that much better for it because I'm actually trying.
     
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2014
  23. Sky Sentinel

    Sky Sentinel You see?

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    "Bowser survives a lynch. Popple ignores distract. Minor changes were made to spawn. Admiral Bobbery replaces Boomer. Bowser Jr. gets write/shield if he wears Peach/Goomba mask."
    Minor changes being Bowser and Kamek now only spawn together at 18 to 19 players, meaning there was another roles list that just put a toad at 17 instead of Kamek blah blah blah.

    Regarding @Windblown's concerns

    Edit: thinking about replacing Glitz Pit with Shadow Sirens, would spawn at the same time and Beldam would be the votekiller with a oneshot daykill, but another would be Doopliss who copies roles like Kirby in SSBB and idk what Marilyn would be, probably bulletproof because buff (might put vivian in even though she's technically Mario's partner, might be added to village as consp for sirens). tl;dr they'd serve almost the same function but suck less also Doopliss would be cool as shit
     
  24. Pandaofazn

    Pandaofazn Member

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    In all honesty, I think DK is right where he belongs. When I think of Mario, DK also comes to mind as well, and as far as I know, they have always been frenemies, rivals at best. DK is a tank and is a badass, but at the end of the day he was also a "hero", so I think that he's good where he stands for now.

    I can understand JP's reasoning, but in a way, won't this intrigue people who are playing that have never heard of Geno? Players that see their favourite Mario character in a theme will be drawn in, and I thing that this theme is quirky and unique! I also thoroughly enjoy it and feel that while it does need some tweaks in the balance of small games, its more or less quite balanced elsewhere, and we could have another staple in Mafia with this.

    As long as it is kept up to date, and the smaller games rehashed with some more balance, I don't see much other problems with this.
     
  25. Sky Sentinel

    Sky Sentinel You see?

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    future changes may include changing bowser jr.'s mask more or giving him a paintbrush (esp now since shadow mario is relevant again in smash bros)
     
  26. Pandaofazn

    Pandaofazn Member

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    Could be used as a recruiter, that can recruit some roles, i.e Mario, Peach, Geno etc etc, to become their shadow forms, same way how nergal worls?
     
  27. Sky Sentinel

    Sky Sentinel You see?

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    Kamek's already something like that, and on same team
     
  28. Whereabouts Unknown

    Whereabouts Unknown Absolutely Stunning Forum Moderator Channel Leader Forum Moderator Channel Leader

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    Alright, let's get this going.

    Creativity-

    Looking first at the characteristics of individual roles, I'll address the instances where the abilities are very well-crafted and in character. Foremost, Luigi's immunity to kills from the Ghost Mafia is very fitting both from a flavor perspective and a gameplay perspective (but the latter is a different subject!). Although Luigi does not strike me as a vigilante off the bat, this dynamic is workable enough to make it believable. I like that Peach can write a letter to give some basic information and provide a basis for taking action, because this is basically all she does in most standard Super Mario games. She doesn't prompt you to do anything in particular, but instead gives you a hint. She also has a chance to make herself vulnerable to aggressors, which is, y'know, the other thing she does.

    Another strong aspect is Kamek having the ability to transform Toads into Goombas. Although I don't know if there's any canonical basis for this ability, knowing Kamek's character and that Goomba physiologically looks like a rotted / withered Toad, I'd give it a 'seems legit'. The feature of Bowser Jr. wearing masks to mimic other roles is also a neat feature. Other roles like Bobbery and MC BallyHoo are in-character.

    However, there are some instances where the flavor seems a bit off. The most striking is that the justification for Yoshi having 3 votes being that there are many Yoshi. Be that as it may, we're talking about one Yoshi, so shouldn't its vote be 1? While Yoshi and Birdo are usually associated, that is the only thing going for them having a +/- vote mayor relationship. Birdo's help is irrelevant, and cites that the negative vote comes from no one liking them. Whether that is true on Earth is besides the point; there isn't a canonical justification for that claim.

    The next thing that appears off to me is Elvin Gadd's reason for having a stalk: "You recently made something that allows you to /stalk other people" according to the help. While this is not unbelievable, it is vague and without any particular reason to exist. It would be stronger if it was somehow was given a justification related to FLUDD, which he already invented, or if the command was different and related to something more likely to be done by a mad scientist.

    Other than that, individual roles are well-suited to their abilities.

    The text flavor is overall good quality, with a few exceptions. However, you may want to revise a couple help messages.

    Score: 3/5

    Cohesion-

    Many of the thhings I've mentioned above lend themselves to good cohesion and role meshing, such as Peach's letter, and Luigi's relationship with Ghosts. However, some of the help messages could be edited for clarity, since it's sometimes hard to follow what the help is trying to say. Looking at Starlow's help:

    "HEY, LISTEN! Wait... that's not your line! You're Starlow, the small yellow Star Sprite sent to Peach's Castle to discuss the 'Blorbs' outbreak that started in the Mushroom Kingdom. In the meantime, you got sucked into Bowser's belly along with Mario, Luigi, and most of the Toads in the Kingdom! You are smart, and you can provide people with information on what happens during the night. There is no command for this."

    Could use clarification on a few points. In the meantime of what? Did Mario and Luigi die already? Providing information isn't the same as receiving it, so you should make it clear that it's hax and not something else.

    There are a couple other help messages that are somewhat misleading. Donkey Kong's required a second or third read-through to understand. Birdo's help needs a do-over.

    Other than the points outlined above, the cohesion seems alright.

    Score: 4/5

    Craftsmanship (Balance, Tactics)-

    Messing around with RiceKirby's mafia simulator I investigated a couple setups.

    5p -
    This setup features two power roles with the ability to detect the mafia with stalk/watch. The mafia has an inspect, but it isn't a huge asset since it will only help them decide whom to kill night 2.

    This setup favors the village considerably, but isn't overly one-sided. It is always possible for The Brain to claim they are being framed by Elvin/Geno if they are found out. However, some scenarios will result in Elvin always losing (i.e., Elvin stalks Brain who kills Toad which Geno watched). Since Watch automatically watches only the first visitor, Geno can't be misled by Elvin accidentally stalking someone who dies. Also, since Watch is given lower priority, it isn't possible for Elvin to find Geno via their commands. While this doesn't hinder gameplay, such features would allow more intense mind-games in a small setup. Still, it's a decent setup as it is. It will probably lean village a solid majority of the time.

    8p -
    This can go a couple of different ways. Probably the best option for Mario is to wait until the day phase to claim and hopefully survive the nightkills. Even at full 8p cast, mass-claiming will give Mario almost perfect information, and the kill will almost always be good. Although I have reservations against any setup in which mass-claiming can automatically guarantee a good kill/lynch, this setup does not favor the village too much. On the contrary, it's rather grim. If by a stroke of luck Mario survives, there's a decent chance DK is dead, meaning Mario can't get protection next round. Also, if Rookie becomes Bowser, how does the village stop him without Mario? 2 votes when there are only 2-3 village roles left alive is hard to turn over. This setup seems too dependent on night 1's kills - but that's a different matter. Tactically, there isn't much for anyone in this setup to strategize over. When it comes down to it, "PRs PM" will yield everyone except Toad if he's alive, and from there it's a 50/50 or 25/75 to hit mafia instead of a village role. In terms of balance, this definitely favors Popple and Rookie, though it isn't completely decided, since xfire can always happen.

    Here's a hypothetical scenario to help get my concerns across.
    Night 1:
    -DK protects Peach.
    -Peach messages Geno.
    -The Brain kills DK and Inspects Rookie.
    -Popple kills Toad.
    -Geno watches Toad.

    Day 1:
    -Mario claims
    -PRs to PM with info.
    -Mario kills Popple.
    -Rookie becomes Bowser.

    Vote 1:
    -Village consisting of Peach, Mario, and Geno total 3 votes.
    -Bowser has 2 votes.
    -The Brain has 1 vote.

    The mafia can prevent a lynch.

    Night 2:
    -Bowser kills Mario.
    -The Brain can opt to kill Bowser assuming Bowser will kill Mario, but this is too risky, considering Geno/Peach are probably connected.
    -So the village decides which side to give the win to.
    This is just one scenario, but it isn't unlikely. Meanwhile, games with xfire would turn out very bad for the mafia factions, and games where Mario dies n1 nearly impossible for village. To an extent, that can't be helped, but it isn't a strong suit of this particular scenario. If I had a recommendation, it would be to give Peach a mayor vote. (This wouldn't hurt the flavor either.)

    13p -
    Not much to add here, since it's too hard to simulate 13 players at once I didn't get to explore it thoroughly. However, i seems to encounter similar problems I discussed above. Furthermore, this setup is much, much more inclined towards village. Mario still can't safely claim, but if he does survive (or even if he dies n1) mass-claiming will almost secure a victory (there are only 2 Toads). Ghost mafia looks a bit stronger, but a 9v2v2 with as many strong power roles as this scenario has will almost always lean village. I don't see how mafia can overturn the situation, as the village in a single day can use 1 daykill + 1 lynch to turn 7v2v2 into 7v1v1 or 7v2 and almost secure a win. Any xfire will just about doom them. Also, whether or not Mario survives to fight another day literally comes down to a coin flip at the end of the night phase. More on that later. My recommendation is to weaken the village by putting in another villager in place of a PR.
    Overall, these setups requires some basic strategies (when should I claim, how should I interact with the other mafia sides, who should aim for Mario, etc). However, mass-claiming (or connecting through a single power role) being an ultimatum that the village can use to stomp the mafia at almost any time if even a single villager dies in games as large as 13 hurts the overall usage of mind-games and bluffs. In some instances, the balance looks completely lopsided and largely dependent on random kills night 1, and influenced by other random factors (pierce chance, 10% evade). Many of these issues could be addressed by reworking the spawn.

    Score: 2/5

    Course (Learning Curve, Flow)-

    This theme has its fair share of quirks, but it doesn't go overboard and is mostly easy to understand. If you're a fan of the Mario universe the rules will probably become fairly evident. With a couple help messages being the exception, the text guides the game fairly well.

    My concern for the way night 1 deaths determine the course of the game in most scenarios above is also pertinent to this category. The flow is affected by random factors such as pierce chance chance and whether the most valuable PRs die n1. However, while this can make games unpredictable and uneven, it can add elements of surprise and suspense to the game. There is also a benefit to having randomness. Still, for the most part it will hinder the flow of the game.

    On the plus side, the learning curve is smooth, and the fast-paced kills can provide interesting twists that turn the game on its head.

    Score: 3/5

    Concept-

    The only concern I can see in the way the world is setup is that it is not centered around Mario/Bowser as much as would be expected from a theme of its trademark characters. Looking at spawn, it isn't too much of a problem for Mario who spawns at 8, but it can be compared against Link who spawns in everything except 3p Zelda. Bowser doesn't spawn until 18 (though he has a chance of appearing in 8+), and although that's understandable for balancing purposes, it feels removed from the focus of the greatest plurality of Mario universe games, Mario fighting against Bowser. Even if Kamek spawned earlier it would help considerably to make it feel like that rivalry is present.

    As for Mario, it seems odd that in this universe, for the most part he can only lie in wait and hope he doesn't get killed, since 50% piercing killers and poisoners keep him from claiming for protection. From a strategic point of view, of course he can claim and take the risk of the pierce, or ask Geno to /Watch him and thus avenge him by voting out his killer, but from a world-building perspective, Mario shouldn't have to be passive. That he may land only 1 kill per game, or maybe even none, doesn't make him seem like a central character. Of course, a daykiller should always come with risks. However, Mario's role in this theme feels more akin to that of Cloud in FF than Link in Zelda, which is not ideal for a central power role. The theme would benefit by pushing Mario into a role game-controlling role.

    I can see how rules for approaching gameplay can be created. For instance, Luigi can claim if Wario dies, because he evades the only pierce kill. Mario can turn around the game part-way through if he manages to stay hidden, just to take out a powerful adversary like Cackletta or Bowser. It doesn't invoke too many mind-games and strategies; however, I expect entry level mafia players as well as veterans would enjoy its quick developments and fun dynamics.

    Score: 4/5

    Total: 16/25

    Overall, I would like to see this theme on the server again someday. Though I am skeptical of some aspects, and I beleive some things need to be adjusted, I have a positive feeling about the theme as a whole. Good luck with your continued review!
     
  29. Duster

    Duster dodgerswin 2018

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    i guess i'll edit more sections in as i go

    Creativity
    =======
    As far as flavor goes, the theme does a pretty good job of bringing alot of lesser known characters from the Mario side games.
    The help text for most of these characters explain the character pretty well to someone who's never heard of them (like me), and there seems to be a good variety of different characters.
    the thing miki mentioned about Yoshi honestly doesn't seem too bad to me:
    yoshi's island: new yoshi every level, there are like hundreds on the intro screen
    super mario world: yoshi in every box buy one get one free

    yeah, the description for yoshi is kinda bland, might want to add something like "yoshi can call for his friends to help, giving him +votes", etc...

    overall, good flavor. some might complain about not knowing the roles, but there's SSBB for the popular characters, and the theme isn't overloaded with characters to remember.

    4/5

    Cohesion
    =======

    damn i cant think of anything right now
    uh no comment
    [​IMG]

    Course
    ======

    Some roles are kind of ambiguous as to which side they're on. In most mario games I've played, Birdo's always a villain, so, somewhat confusing for first time players, but that's a minor thing. gadd and geno were always kinda weird being town: gadd rhymes with bad, and geno just seems like an evil name

    and i still can't get used to the fact that goombario is sided with mushroom kingdom
    everytime i find goombario i think time 4 deth buttwipe and then "jinora has been banned from mafia forever [teamvoting]"
    THIS IS IMPORTANT

    evil goomba vs good goombario? is goombario like mario got turned into a goomba?
    who actually reads the current team list? (not me)

    the games are pretty easy to follow, especially since for the average spawn, there's only 2-3 sides.
    the theme itself doesn't look like it's hard to pick up, although one thing i noticed is that there could be some confusion with players thinking Mario is a safe role like Link, maybe add something in the help text? idk

    i faded back to using no caps

    names are still kinda confusing and uh i can't decide if this is a 3 or 4 right now so
    3.5/5
     
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2014
  30. IceKirby

    IceKirby A.K.A. RiceKirby

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    Those are mostly related to Creativity and Cohesion than Course.
    Also, Geno's only appearance in Mario games is as an important ally.
     
  31. Windblown

    Windblown sable knight

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    Reviewing is going too slowly for my liking, so get a move on, QC.

    Creativity-
    Mario as daykiller is fine, but would be nice to include some of the power-ups he gets in the games
    Luigi complements him as a killer but during the night, with some nice immunity from ghost mafia to explain Luigi's Mansion interactions
    DK as BG makes less sense than Yoshi, but I don't want to touch that argument for obvious reasons
    Ballyhoo is a good exposer seeing as how he's the Mario Party announcer
    Rosalina works as a distracter, apparently she isn't the greatest choice of character but I'm not too picky about it, considering Peach has a different role
    Yoshi - honestly the justification for mayor is quite flimsy
    Starlow's message is honestly a bit all over the place, I'd like to see some clearer explanation of why they are a Spy
    Goombario's role is well-designed however, as tattle was his special ability in Paper Mario
    Peach's role is much better than the stereotypical PL princess, so props to that.
    Bombs are always fun.
    Birdo is a nice foil to Yoshi, but seeing how his role is dubious itself she will be good if you change Yoshi's role to more fit him
    Toadette is fine. I don't know much about Geno but I think I touched on it a while ago that he was supposed to be this observer from a celestial world so it's okay here.

    Don't feel like going through the mafia role by role but most of them are fine, except I feel Bowser could be more of a mafia boss menace rather than a mafia consp

    Overall Score: 3/5

    Cohesion:
    Some help messages are a bit wordy and/or clunky. Fawful's comes to mind, and I'm aware it's probably a reference to his personality, but it could be tuned down a bit.

    As for characters meshing together, I feel the village and the mafia don't really interact with each other as much as they could, outside of Luigi and Ghosts. There isn't a role that can specifically counter Cackletta or something that can safeguard from Wario's poison, for example; basically I feel having roles that balance each other out on village and mafia really makes the theme more cohesive.

    Overall Score: 2/5

    Craftsmanship:
    Because of a real lack of counter roles there isn't much of a base line to figure out what to do in the first few nights, although there's no lack of information. Not much potential village connection outside neighbor/inspects/expose/tattle which are quite standard roles in general. Mario /is/ immune to daykills but is vulnerable to being Kefka'd so it's not like you can find a way to get someone to claim relatively safely. (For example, in FE you can wait for either Ashnard or Nergal to die so you can claim as Sophia and Roy respectively). And let's not get started with Rawk Hawk, who fortunately doesn't really have a strong partner to aid him in winning, but is still quite potent as a Kuja with just enough firepower to eliminate anyone undesirable. I will give you points for Mario actually being able to take him out safely though. Other than that, the balance wasn't too bad from games I've played.

    Overall Score: 3/5

    Course:
    It's actually pretty easy to learn the theme's roles; they're simple and iconic because the Mario series is popular. There aren't too many killers at the start so it's not too fast of a game, although at the end things can get really hectic where one side can have a chance to dominate due to late game strength (Cackletta, RAWK HAWK). And because there's no really weird mechanics, you can easily follow what's going on with the game.

    Overall Score: 5/5

    Concept:
    It's just a Mario theme to be honest, there's no really central concept or overarching idea to work around, but it is good to showcase one of the most popular franchises in gaming. That in itself can be pretty fun, but the village roles themselves don't strike out to be that unique and exciting to play (which as I said could be remedied by making Mario more dynamic with the ability to use power-ups).

    Overall Score: 3/5

    Final Score: 16/25
    Total: 32/50
     
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2014
  32. IceKirby

    IceKirby A.K.A. RiceKirby

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    I'm confused by this. The arguments and the score doesn't seem to match, as no positives were mentioned at all.
     
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  33. Cheezeburgar

    Cheezeburgar dankest john

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    Reviewing this from my iPhone as I am on vacation so bear with the long shit here because this being written in my thing-a-ma-donger notes app.

    Creativity:
    Plenty of things could have been done with Mario, the character. Making him the day killer is one of the less creative things you can come up with in my opinion. Mario gets plenty of powers through items so why not incorporate that in? Even though he does go around killing bad guys in most of the Mario games I've played to date, he doesn't fit that role.This is the only complaint I have in terms of character creativity. Also, while the mafias and village are pretty well themed and coordinated within themselves, there doesn't seem to be a relation between sides other than Luigi and Boos. Having things like this can spice up the game flavor and make things more interesting. For examples, Light Yagami and Ryuk.
    Now to the original theme, I think the process of taking several Mario game characters from different games and blending them into one theme was creative enough in itself for me to say wow. Granted it's not like making a theme from scratch but giving people certain roles according to what they did fit pretty well overall except for my complaint before. I can see the reasoning behind many of the roles, other roles I don't even know of because I am not a Mario addict. Anyways, I like what I see and I am not going to go through every single role to see what I can pick at. I will give this a 4/5.

    Cohesion:
    Agreeing with windblown here. A lot of these help messages could be reworded into much shorter versions and kept simple. I know you want to keep it with as much info as possible and even have it go hand in hand with the character but people don't have all the time in the world to read long help and myrole messages. Every second of the thirty counts.
    Also Wario seems like he provides too much influence on the way the game flows. There is no safeguard specifically for him, and landing good poisons and being able to trick people into who else did it can sway the game one way.
    From what I've seen of the theme, getting the village to work with each other is easy with Mario in, but if he happens to be not in the game than it can be pretty difficult. And then mafias can pretty much rand kill as long as they know who not to kill/who to kill from chat logs and other hints.
    Overall the cohesion earns a 2/5.

    Course:
    This theme is actually easy to learn for many reason. First off, there are no too complex roles and no annoying things you have to watch out for (like Sakura/Temari or Disgruntled). All the roles are pretty simple with one command to play the game with. Secondly as stated before Mario is a pretty popular game so most people already understand what they're dealing with.
    Also despite what Duster said earlier, I think it is pretty obvious what sides roles are on. And most confusions can be fixed by typing some hidden commands like /sides /roles :~ /myrole and whatnot. Like this seriously shouldn't be a problem with how easy this is to learn.
    I'll give this a 5/5.

    Craftsmanship:
    This theme has a pretty decent overall balance of sides in large games, besides the fact that some roles don't have hard counters or ways to be dealt with. Ehuehue Wario ehuehue sorry I'm sick. Previous games I've played on the server seemed to go in village's favor quite often, and seeing the 5-8 person spawn list I can see why. But then even after that, Mario seems to have trouble claiming with the pierces and poisons. In general, I think the spawn lists were crafted poorly for smaller games. Night 1 seems to pretty much decide the game as from what I have seen in the simulator. Overall, this theme doesn't seem to have grasped the concept of what is important to have in smaller games in order to balance things out. 2/5

    Concept:
    I think a great job was done with the mafias, the boos especially. But as for the village goes, my main focus was on Mario, since he is supposed to be the main character and whatnot. Mario should be able to claim somewhat comfortably, not be a side assassin like cloud who doesn't have much control over the game. I feel like this makes it so the theme doesn't necessarily revolve around Mario which is quite the opposite of the games, and that is crucial in this criteria. Also your favorite villain, Bowser, doesn't even appear until like 18 people! These aren't easy fixes but I can see how it fits the theme for balance reasons.

    I'll give this criteria a 3/5, adding up to a total of 16/25, and a running total of 48/75.
    Looking forward to seeing jinora's finished review to top it off.
     
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2014
  34. IceKirby

    IceKirby A.K.A. RiceKirby

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    Your score added to 16/25, not 15/25 @Cheezeburgar
    And again I must mention the Cohesion criterion. Lots of what you mentioned there belong to other criteria (Wario not having a counter is mostly a balancing aspect; How Village/Mafia acts is Course). Cohesion is more about how well the game elements blend with each other to form a interesting universe.
     
  35. Cheezeburgar

    Cheezeburgar dankest john

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    Thanks, Rice.

    I tried to say Wario had a bit too much influence over the game because of no counter which I agree is for balance reasons but I still think is something that needed to be said. Even if I disregarded that fact, I still believe firmly that it deserves the same score.
     
  36. IceKirby

    IceKirby A.K.A. RiceKirby

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    I didn't mean to say those were unnecessary, only that they were misplaced. If you move those two paragraphs to the right criteria, it might be necessary to go deeper on the Cohesion aspect as only a small portion of what you wrote about it would remain.
     
  37. Cheezeburgar

    Cheezeburgar dankest john

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    Will do an edit when I get back on laptop as for now am stuck on phone and it is being stupid but I agree I should talk about cohesion more
     
  38. Fiery Espeon

    Fiery Espeon The fire never bothered me anyway ~

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    This will be really short and simple, as I don't know shit about Mario. (Not a 90's or 80's kid)
    Creativity-
    There are a few things that are iffy. For example, I think Mario could have been much of a greater role in the theme. Like instead of being a daykiller, he could have been a special role, with multiple different/useful commands that represent who Mario is. Nevertheless, daykilling is okay but it seems like it could have been done better. A suggestion would be a sort of "harming" jailkeeper role, or a role that's actions change every night to reflect the different types of Marios ( Fire Mario, etc) , not the original. Yoshi also could have been worked in better as a role, rather than just a simple mayor.

    Overall Score: 4/5

    Cohesion:
    Agreeing with Cheeseburgar and Windblown with this. Some of the help/info msgs are bulky, and could be reduced. When a new theme is introduced into the community, people take time to learn the roles. So, for any theme in review, the ability to be able to be quickly understood on a time limit is essential. Sadly, this does not happen due to the bulkiness and unnecessary information. I know you are trying to give me some Lore/Background Info, but I want to win. The limit for background info should be about half a long sentence, maybe 1 1/2 short sentences.

    Overall Score: 3/5
    Craftsmanship:
    Kefka and Kuja roles are pretty simple. They are largely influential roles that can take out a lot of roles, and prevent key PRs from claiming. This theme kind of does that. And The Brain + Boo is a bit much. They are both kefka roles, and one has an inspect. I see how you may have tried to balance it out, with making Boo to die to distractions, but nevertheless, it is a bit overwhelming. I would criticize the bigger spawns for being majorly unbalanced to some sides, namely the village, but mafia doesn't get that many players anymore. Rawk Hawk + Armored Harriers is also overwhelming. If they play right, they will almost always have a great chance of winning.

    Overall Score: 2/5

    Course:
    The core of the theme is simple enough, a lot of people recognize the Mario games. Although it would have been nice to add some complex roles to simple roles, it is easy enough to comprehend and learn from. Some help msgs/info are wordy, and may confuse new players/learners, but just straightup role wise, its a pretty simple enough theme.

    Overall Score: 4/5

    Concept:
    The concept is pretty simple, its a Mario theme based around the characters themselves, not a certain game/branch. I think it would have been better off to become a more complex concept. A complex concept can be described as one which has an important event, and the roles/actions coincide with it. For example, SSBB. The complex concept is that they are in the arena, and they are trying to win, by fighting to the death. Another example is Oracle. The complex event is that the soldiers are upset at the Oracles, so they start to kill them. The Genies try to save the Oracles.
    The concept of Mario is that multiple enemies are attacking the Mushroom Kingdom.
    ... That's it. The concept get's a little lost between there. Overall, it could have been better.
    Overall Score: 2/5

    Final Score: 15/25
    Total: 62/100
     
  39. IceKirby

    IceKirby A.K.A. RiceKirby

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    4/5 for Creativity and 3/5 for Cohesion with barely any positive aspect pointed? Not saying you should reduce the rating, but if you feel it deserves those scores, it would be helpful to point the positives too so they can be used as base as to what's on the right track. Otherwise, those scores feel awkward.
     
    Joeypals!! and Pangaea like this.
  40. Duster

    Duster dodgerswin 2018

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    9/10 it was ok
    -IGN

    sorry im so busy with essays and shit
    ill get my reviews done soon i swear
     
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