[RBY] Bind / Clamp / Fire Spin / Wrap Ban Vote

Discussion in 'Past Gens Discussion' started by Halsey, Jun 22, 2014.

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What in your your opinion is the best option? (Post why in the thread if you wish to do so)

  1. Ban those moves

    34.4%
  2. Ban the combination of those moves + Agility

    13.1%
  3. Do Nothing

    52.5%
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  1. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom Active Member

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    I don't have a problem with a "no Wrap-like" clause existing (if people want to play a stupid meta, that's their business), but I would take great issue with it being mandatory in tournaments.
     
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  2. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom Active Member

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    If all your Pokemon faster than Dragonite (Tauros, Starmie, Alakazam, Gengar, Zapdos, Articuno, Jolteon, Persian) have been KOed or paralysed, then either your team is weak to Dragonite or your opponent has done a good job of eliminating its checks, and you deserve to lose.

    Wrap doesn't "always miss after 1 sequence". It doesn't have to. A faster Pokemon will get 1 move in between Wrap cycles.

    ZOMG I CAN SWITCH THIS POKEMON OUT WHEN ITS COUNTERS COME IN

    SO BROKEN

    Bwahahahaha. You are telling me I need a refresher? The only bit of RBY's mechanics I don't know off the top of my head is the exact accuracies for moves other than "100% accurate" (255/256) and "90% accurate" (229/256).

    The thing is, though, you have to hit more than once with Wrap for it to be any good. Wrap has an effective Base Power of 45 per use (averages three hits); Blizzard has a Base Power of 120.

    Hitting once with Wrap isn't hard. Hitting it for three or four sequences in a row, however (Cloyster requires seven on average to put into Hyper Beam range), is hard (chance of three Wrap sequences all hitting: 61%. Four: 52%. Seven: 32%). And since basically everything in OU can either cripple Dragonite permanently or OHKO it, it absolutely has to hit all of them.

    As I said, it's good. But it's not as good as the top-tier threats.

    The problem is that Wrap users, while powerful, are less powerful than Tauros and Exeggutor. Banning them is therefore patently silly. This would be like if I randomly banned Skarmory from GSC OU.

    No. You can switch during Wrap, and a faster Pokemon will get to move between Wrap cycles. Don't accuse me of not having played RBY OU; I topped the ladder at one point last year.

    You can't move that turn. You wait for Wrap to run out, and then you will have a turn to attack or paralyse the Wrapper. Surviving one Wrap cycle is not hard.

    Again:

    ZOMG I CAN SWITCH THIS POKEMON OUT WHEN ITS COUNTERS COME IN

    SO BROKEN

    Dragonite does NOT have many opportunities to come in, as it is 2HKOed or OHKOed by most of OU and is crippled by paralysis.

    EDIT: Missed this.

    Ahem. You forgot Dragonite's other weakness.

    Golem Rock Slide vs. Dragonite: 180-212 (46.7 - 55%) -- 69.1% chance to 2HKO
    Rhydon Rock Slide vs. Dragonite: 200-236 (51.9 - 61.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    Also, the only things that don't often run Thunder Wave, Stun Spore, or Body Slam in RBY OU are Cloyster, Dragonite itself, Gengar, and Jynx. Cloyster and Jynx have guaranteed OHKOs with STAB Blizzard, and Gengar laughs at Dragonite (Dragonite vs. Dragonite is obviously a coin-flip unless one is running Blizzard and the other isn't). That's the problem with using Dragonite in practice.
     
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2014
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  3. Scatterbrain

    Scatterbrain You only live once*

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    Magic you must know that while Ghost-types like Gengar are immune to Wrap they are still affected by the effect of Wrap (meaning they can't move). I'm not sure what you meant by "Gengar laughs at Dragonite" other than the Speed difference: Gengar has no solid way to bring Dragonite down (Blizzard in this case). Meaning that if Gengar misses the Hypnosis (60% accuracy lol) or the Confuse Ray (keeping in mind the 255/256) Dragonite forces another Switch. However, since a lot of things carry Blizzard in RBY, and given that 85% accuracy (plus the 1/256 chance in addition) it's more likely that in the duration of spamming the move, it's going to miss.

    I can't really talk about Cloyster or the other users though, because they all seem like really shitty options to me.
     
  4. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom Active Member

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    Yes, I do. But all Dragonite accomplishes by Wrapping Gengar is wasting its Wrap PP, as Wrap does not damage Gengar.

    Nope. Gengar usually beats Dragonite head-to-head because they're reduced to slugging it out (as Wrap and Hyper Beam don't work, and Dragonite doesn't learn Earthquake or Psychic), and Gengar's faster and hits a little harder (Night Shade's a 4HKO, Gengar's Thunderbolt's a perfectly accurate 5HKO; Dragonite's Blizzard has a tiny chance to 4HKO and can miss, while Surf doesn't even 5HKO most of the time).

    Cloyster's biggest plus is its ability to force out Snorlax, which nothing else in the game can do. Bel is kinda shitty, yes.
     
  5. Raish

    Raish New Member

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    The idea that someone suggested of a no-wrap clause checkbox sounds amazing! We have a very small community, and whether wrap is broken or not, there are numerous players, including myself, who won't ladder when there are too many wrappers around because even if you can beat it (and I definitely have a positive win rate against wrap), it's just so blatantly unfun to play against and drags matches out to last over half an hour in most cases unless the misses come early. I'll have a lot more fun playing other games or even doing work than playing against wrap, and a lot of people agree with that sentiment. Other players who had been a good part of the community for a while have gone so far as to take breaks from the game all together saying, "Let me know when the wrap is gone. Then I'll come back." I've been doing really well with Kingler, who is harder to set up than Agility Dragonite, lately and I can tell you even if your opponent plays well, unless they're stomping you or have a team comp which would have flaws against most of the meta, it's not that hard to find openings for a 1-turn setup sweeper. Lax, Tauros, and Rocks are often the ones doing the KOing that lets you bring in Dragonite and are unlikely to para, and Eggy often doesn't run Stun Spore. While there is definitely some skill involved in wrap decision making, it's mostly on the side of the wrap initiator. The person on the other side feels like their game has become a game of chance in most cases because if you stay in, they've got a 50.5% chance of hitting for 450 base power before missing, and if you try to switch until you get a double miss, you're waiting for a 2.25% chance. I don't know how hard implementing that checkbox would be, but it would do a lot to get rid of the factor that drives away more players from this game than any other without losing the people who wouldn't be here without wrap either.
     
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2014
  6. kilogram1000

    kilogram1000 New Member

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    I say we don't ban it. Or at least not completely. This is the only tier that uses gives wrap its ability, and this tier, though not entirely, is partially attractive to the people who play in it b/c of naustalgia. If we get rid of the one move that is only in this pokemon game, the first pokemon game, it may be lost, and the people who enjoy this tier for its nostalgia will be less incentivized to play. And there isn't that many people. Maybe make something that has it as an option, but dont let the move die completely.
     
  7. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom Active Member

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    No. Wrap hitting for ten sequences consecutively (average 30 hits = ~450 BP) is a 19.7% chance (0.85 ^ 10).

    Or for the Wrapper to run out of PP. Dragonite averages 29 Wrap hits before running out; that's a lot of damage, certainly, but it's only equivalent to ~1.5 Pokemon (less if some of the Wraps are taken by Golem/Rhydon/Gengar), which is pretty fair given how hard it is to set up successfully and actually force the PP-stall, and those dozen or so 2.25% chances to have it all be for naught.


    I won't deny that AgiliNite sweeps and attempted sweeps are rather boring, but that's a pretty flimsy reason to ban it.
     
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  8. Raish

    Raish New Member

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    Ah my mistake: the 450 base power went along with 2.25% chance. Misquoted Icy on that one. Yeah that's why I'm an advocate of the clause button over a full ban. I get that some people like it, but over the past 3 years, every time there's been a resurgence of Wrap that's lasted over a month, there's been a loss of consistent players from the community who quit at least for a while out of boredom or frustration, and I don't think that's a healthy effect on the community if it can be avoided. We're going to rely more on long term players once people who played this as children get into the working world and stop coming by for nostalgia as much. The points where Dragonite or triple wrapper teams were laddering most of the time have been the cause of at least 9 months of break for me because other games and things I had to do simply became better options. I came back each time because I knew that meta changes pass and I'm pretty invested in this game, but a lot of people who stop never regain that drive for Pokemon again. Games are for fun, and half this community has negative fun with Wrap.
     
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  9. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom Active Member

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    Icy's slightly off on that one; there's a 50.5% chance that it won't double-miss (I think; I haven't seen the calculations), but that doesn't mean all of them hit so it's actually slightly less than 450 BP on average.

    And yeah I get that Wrap is unfun - I've posted a couple of battle logs where I comment on how boring it is to stall out Dragonite. But it's not really anti-competitive, so I don't think it should be banned in competitive contexts (ladders, tournaments). If people want a button to ban it from their fun battles, I'm all for it. It's the people claiming it's overpowered that I have an issue with.

    (Don't get me wrong, it's a very powerful mechanic and if something like Starmie got Clamp I'd support its banning to Ubers in a heartbeat. The issue is that none of the things that do receive Wrap-like moves are good enough in other aspects to stand out above the OUs, and there is counterplay against all the existent Wrappers that doesn't require luck - unlike evasion moves - so a ban on the moves themselves isn't justified.)
     
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2014
  10. Isa

    Isa Well-Known Tauros

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    I'm still on my vacation but I'd just like to add that there is a fine line between fun and competitive, and what should have priority. Agility+Wrap is so much unfun, and widely considered as such too, that I think that falls within the borders of where we should abandon it - in this case not to preserve a competitive aspect of the game, but the overall health and enjoyment of it. Like Raish described a lot of people refuse to play on the ladder because of Wrap and how boring it is to face - I did for a long time myself. That's my main gripe with Wrap, not that it is overpowered but because it ruins the enjoyment for me.
     
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  11. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Badged Deucer

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    It seems like splitting the ladder into two [wrap and non-wrap] is probably a wise solution to this problem, rather than a blanket overall decision. I know I would play on the wrap ladder for the most part, but clearly it doesn't suit most people.
     
  12. Isa

    Isa Well-Known Tauros

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    Splitting into two should not be an option.
     
  13. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Badged Deucer

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    Why not? I think for the most part we agree that wrap within this tier is not really uncompetitive or broken, but people clearly dislike it; I don't think either side is totally right or totally wrong, I don't think we should be happy whichever was it turns out if either side has its way.
     
  14. Lutra

    Lutra All Gen Battler/Scripter

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    The main reason is it splits the player base. But if a non-wrap tier was added, it would presumable encourage more wrappers in the RBY OU where wrap is allowed, so not a bad idea in that sense.

    On the subject of adding tiers though, bring back Stadium OU and Ubers!!!
     
  15. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Badged Deucer

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    Lutra as far as I'm aware tours are held outside of Pokemon Online using both wrap and non-wrap and I've not seen any clear split in playerbase over that, although you with more experience as a TD in those scenarios might tell you otherwise, in which case I would accept that point.
     
  16. NotMafia

    NotMafia Miltank: Destroyer of Souls

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    I voted ban due to how mindnumbingly tedious I find playing against/with wrap but I'd rather it stayed than split the playerbase, not only would it create a split it would make retaining new players more difficult and that not what any older gen needs.
     
  17. Crystal_

    Crystal_ Active Member

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    I think this has gotten to the point where everyone that plays RBY these days is used to play in a meta where wrap moves are "unofficially" banned. You just have to look at the usage stats, with Dnite sitting at 7% usage and Cloy at just 6%. They should both be at least 20% if the wrap debate didn't exist. People not too happy going out there with their wrap team it seems. Most of the dedicated RBY players nowadays don't like wrap, and since you are probably going to play one of them, you unconciously "avoid" using wrap moves just because. That's at least how I see it. For this reason I think that wrap moves should stay banned in PO tournaments if the goal of this poll is determining that. It's not that I really care anymore, but I think that banning them will please the majority of the dedicated RBY players.
     
  18. Golden Gyarados

    Golden Gyarados Active Member

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    When this topic comes up, you see a lot of talk about how this decision could split the player base, could drive people away, etc. But if you'll look at the comments, it becomes pretty clear that people who like Wrap will still play a Wrap-less meta (they may prefer Wrap, but they'll still play), whereas people who don't like Wrap are more likely to actually leave/stop playing when Wrap is around. Therefore, yes, this decision has the potential to split the player base, but not in the way people seem to suggest. There isn't a 50/50 probability of alienating away half the player base. It's not "damned if you do, damned if you don't." Keeping Wrap is the option that drives people away or keeps people curious about RBY from giving it a shot. Banning Wrap causes some grumbles but won't ACTUALLY impact the player base.
     
  19. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom Active Member

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    When were they banned in PO tournaments? This is the first I've heard of any such rule.

    The set of players who will actually leave if Wrap isn't banned is a relatively small subset of the set of players who think it should be banned, which is itself less than 50% according to the poll.

    And I don't believe that allowing a minority of the playerbase to hold the whole meta to ransom by threatening to leave is remotely fair. Whether they leave is their business, not the community's.
     
  20. Crystal_

    Crystal_ Active Member

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    Fair enough. It's in Pokemon Perfect where they are banned. My mistake! (do the PO forums actually run regular RBY tournaments anyway? I do know of RBY Gyms but as far as I know it's the gym leader the person that decides the rules or something like that)
     
  21. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom Active Member

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    Ah, gotcha.
     
  22. Golden Gyarados

    Golden Gyarados Active Member

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    Whoa whoa whoa, I know this is the internet but let's not go crazy here. No one is talking about hostages. Re-read my post and you'll see I'm just refuting an argument that is common to these discussions that banning Wrap would have just as adverse a consequence as not banning it. The two outcomes are not simply not equivalent - even if it's a small number of a small subset of players, that's some non-zero number of players leaving versus a zero number of players leaving, which is not an equal number. If you have examples or situations where a player left the community because people weren't welcoming to Wrap (maybe Dre?) please share them, but until then let's stay focused on accurate representations of the issue and not bring in arguments that don't hold water under scrutiny, that's all.
     
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2014
  23. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom Active Member

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    I don't think I've seen somebody make that argument. Could you point it out?

    And I'm refuting the argument that "people will leave if X" is relevant to whether X is good or bad. Which Isa actually made, and you implicitly assumed by refuting a sub-argument.

    Saying that it should be banned because some number of people would leave if it wasn't inherently subverts the underpinning of the tier system (competitive balance) in favour of an unrelated minority preference because of a threat that minority has made.

    Now, I'm not accusing Raish of intentionally poisoning the debate; he's completely entitled to leave the meta if he doesn't like it. It's when people then use that as a reason to change policy that issues of integrity start to come up.

    Maybe I should have quoted Isa's post instead, but this is a serious matter and I needed to say what I did.
     
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  24. marcoasd

    marcoasd Well-Known Member

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    Nope, in Pokemon Perfect, Wrap is not banned.
    As the gym leader, I don't ban Wrap, while E4 Isa does.

    Once again, no-Wrap Clause is the best solution (if possible). If not, an hypothetical ban should involve only Agility+Wrap on Dnite, as the votation shows.
    In any case, Dnite has a low usage %, and that's because it's not reliable. I faced one user in 15 gym challenges (!), I won.
    I don't like playing against Dnite, but I know it's my problem. And at the end of the day, I don't think it's even the most scary thing on my opponent's side (again, look at the usage %).
     
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  25. Isa

    Isa Well-Known Tauros

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    Never did I say that I or others would leave if this ban did not get through. I said people have left in the past. I believe that is a very important distinction.

    And it's not a bad thing to consider how (un)enjoyable a metagame is with Wrap (dis)allowed.
     
  26. Dre.

    Dre. Member

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    I think it's important to remember that we're not creating a competitive game, we're adapting a game to a competitive environment. There's a big difference between the two. What we're doing is the latter, which means that everything from the original game should be included unless there is a particular mechanic that renders the game completely non-competitive. I think anyone who argues that wrap renders the game completely non-competitive really doesn't understand wrap.

    If you look at non-wrap arguments, most of them either boil down to it not being fun (admittedly a minority), or complaining about how it changes the non-wrap meta. For example, people have complained that you're forced to run gengar (you're not tbh) because gengar is not a top class pokemon in nom-wrap. Or they complain that there is minimal counterplay to wrappers once their fast psychics are paralysed. They don't accept the 'well just don't let your fast psychics get paralysed' because in non-wrap a lot of people are happy to let their zam get paralysed. It's just that they they're not receptive to having to change their playstyle. It's equivalent to complaing about getting swept by zapdos because you boomed your golem.

    To extend on that, imagine a community that had aways played wrap but banned sleep and explosion. If those two got legalised, people would be complaining about having to run sleep and boom absorbers that may have not been good in the previous meta without it. . Or another example, imagine a community where the legendary birds were banned. Suppose the meta had developed so that it was common practice to boom exploders early to remove a pokemon that walled your main offensive threat. If the birds got legalised, people would complain about getting swept by zapdos because they boomed their golem, or they'd complain that they have to keep their golem around. It's the same with wrap. It's a case whether something perfectly competitve gets banned arbitrarily and then a meta develops without it, so that when it gets re-introduced, the fact that it forces people to steer way from the established style of play make them think it's banworthy.

    People complain about getting cheezed by a surprise dragonite, or getting surprised by wrap after letting their fast psychics sleep, but in truth the non-wrap sentiment is largely at fault for these types of frustrations. It's because of the non-wrap sentiment that most people play non-wrap, and therefore when someone does play wrap it's an outlier strategy that people don't prepare for. However, if wrap had always been an accepted part of the game, and wrap teams consequently became as common as non-wrap teams, then people would consider wrap in their team-building and strategy. Losing to wrap because you let your zam get paralysed get early wouldn't be an excuse if wrap was accepted, it would simply be that person misplaying because they did not consider wrap.

    By banning wrap, you remove a perfectly competitive mechanic from the game that makes a lot more pokemon viable. Most pokemon that offer some form of offensive presence are use-able in a wrap team because the switching mechanics allow pokemon to get in without taking hits. This is the main weakness of most lower-tier offensive pokemon.
     
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2014
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  27. Golden Gyarados

    Golden Gyarados Active Member

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    Dre, this is actually a really good point and I never thought about that angle. I agree with this in principle ... but I do understand that there are situations where there ARE exceptions:

    The same argument could be said about Evasion. You could say, "If Double Team had always been an accepted part of the game, people would consider it in their team-building and strategy - and therefore Swift would have high usage." But at the end of the day, we banned Evasion. I know you are a big proponent of playing with the exact mechanics in the game, and I respect that opinion, but the reality is that we make changes. We have clauses and tiers that manipulate what is technically possible in order to create a competitive and balanced environment. I could use Swift to counter Double Team, but we don't consider that fun or competitive.
     
  28. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Badged Deucer

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    Comparatively though, in terms of qualitatively how broken a strategy is double team is the most broken, and then sleep without sleep clause, and then sort of a level where certain things are equally troublesome, freeze [although it's not a strategy it is an element of the game that is pretty powerful - whether or not we should have freeze clause is a different question however], wrap, sleep with sleep clause, I guess exploding.. I mean also it's kinda interesting learning the history of the clauses. Species clause in original generation 1 Nintendo tournaments was a result of someone winning a tournament using a team of 6 chansey's. You have to remember though the original reason that wrap was disallowed was duet o it being too complicated to implement correctly into the simulators. Not really sure my post will address points on either side, I'm just sort of posting more evidence worthy of discussion I guess. Dre. brings up good points, and Golden Gyarados's reaction doesn't refute it but it does merit being addressed as it's still a really good point.
     
  29. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom Active Member

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    Except you couldn't, because the Normal resists get Double Team like everything else and Swift's Base Power is low. Good luck Swifting that Kabutops to death; even Sharpen Porygon at +6, with the strongest Swift in the game, can't 3HKO except with three absolute max rolls. Rhydon can't even be 4HKOed. Gengar is flat-out immune.

    Double Team is an absolutely justified ban because there is no non-luck-based counter to Normal resists using Double Team and Rest, or for that matter non-Normal-resists using Double Team, Rest, and Withdraw/Harden/Defense Curl/Acid Armour/Barrier/Reflect.

    There are certainly non-luck-based ways around Wrap. PP-stall puts a hard cap on how much damage a Dragonite or Victreebel can do, and Cloyster's got a hard wall in Starmie.
     
  30. Golden Gyarados

    Golden Gyarados Active Member

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    Then much like banning Agility+Wrap is an option in this poll, Evasion could have been a Normal Resist/Immune+Evasion ban, to prevent the ghost/rock abusers from wreaking havoc. If as fierce a debate were being had back during that clause's inception, the three options (ban all, ban combo, ban nothing) could theoretically have had a similar split. Shrug. I'm not saying that would ever have gotten real traction, but the point is that it's a similar ban in spirit, even if you want to argue the exact degree of difficulty or luck surrounding the game that results.

    Some people argue Wrap is just as damaging, and could step into this discussion brand-new, read what you just said about how justified the Evasion ban is and think, "Wow, if he swapped the words 'Evasion' with 'Wrap' and 'Rock' with 'Agility,' that's the perfect argument for why Wrap should be banned!" You clearly don't, which is fine and your opinion, but there are plenty of people out there who think Wrap is ridiculous, as we all know Evasion in Gen 1 is, using the exact same logic.

    And let's be real; Starmie isn't a "hard wall" to Cloyster because clamp still traps it, allowing for the free switches and all that other fun stuff. Even Gengar isn't a "hard wall" to Wrap for the same reason. There is no "hard wall" to it because even if you disregard the damage, you can't play around the fact that you are trapped except to PP stall (which re-introduces damage once you switch away from Gengar, or Starmie, or whatever, so that argument is lost right there), or hope for a miss/wait it out and be faster, or sit there trapped and watch your opponent bring in a counter to you for free. Whichever route you go, you can't consider that HARD walling. It helps, sure, but it doesn't shut down all of the effects of the move.
     
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2014
  31. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom Active Member

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    Yes, Cloyster can accomplish something with an opposing Starmie in existence, but it ain't sweeping because Starmie can just sit in front of Clamp and Recover off the damage.

    And no, the argument I used against Evasion doesn't work against Wrap. PP-stalling Wrap does not require luck; hitting an Evasion user with non-Swift moves does.
     
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  32. Dre.

    Dre. Member

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    With regards to evasion, I'm not sure if it's a legitimate analogy because I'm not sure how competitive the evasion meta would be as I've never played it. Having played wrap though, I know that it is definitely a competitive mechanic. I'd even go as far as saying that wrap vs wrap is probably the most competitive version of RBY, as wrap vs wrap battles were probably the most tactical and least RNG-influenced battles I've ever had.
     
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2014
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  33. MUMU

    MUMU DNR KILLED IT

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    About People saying things along the line of"you can easily out-speed the dragonite" I would like to know though, What Part of IT OUTSPEEDS THE WHOLE METAGAME after 1 agility even if it was paralyzed beforehand is not clear ? Also ,just to clarify,it ignores the speed drop from paralysis after using agility ,it's quite bulky and can only be truly countered by gengar,otherwise it can put whole teams at risk of sweep/badly damaged.
     
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2014
  34. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Badged Deucer

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    MUMU, dragonite is less or at worst, equally as threatening as Tauros. Okay it is a threat, and it is really pretty tedious to play against or w/e, but your argument is.. pretty invalid tbh. Also MUMU remember dnite has to come in, and most members of most teams are able to paralyze or hit it with an ice move, so it has definitely got issues setting up in the first place. Tauros and Snorlax also lack hard counters, does that mean we should ban them too? Okay, whilst they don't guarantee your immobility, their moves are nearly perfectly accurate, and the possibilities of full paralysis are key as well. I personally feel that dnite is a pretty poor abuser of wrap in some ways, and sure it can sweep late game, but so can kingler for christ's sake.
     
  35. NotMafia

    NotMafia Miltank: Destroyer of Souls

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    Tauros is better than Aginite but Tauros doesn't reduce the game to a diceroll the way Aginite does
     
  36. MUMU

    MUMU DNR KILLED IT

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    Speaking of paralyzing it,read CAPS in the above post,also even if you do switch around all game it still does a heavy number to the team,which makes it vulnerable to every attacker afterwards,also dragonite is best wrap user,using luck as a pro-ban argument isn't probably a good idea,but assuming wrap doesn't miss,it's arguably harder to deal with than everything else,including tauros,and hits every pokemon(but 1) and forces immobility.
     
  37. marcoasd

    marcoasd Well-Known Member

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    MUMU, with no disrespect at all, you have no clue. Para'd Dnite using Agiliwrap SUCKS and is going to be killed: Chansey is enough at that point.
    Do you know how crippling are FPs while wrapping?
    Once again: Dnite is very boring to go against, and sometimes it can score some points only due to sheer luck, but this is the game.
     
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  38. MUMU

    MUMU DNR KILLED IT

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    which means
    1)paralyzing it
    2) even if you manage to para it it still need to get fp'd
    3)opponent can't move during it anyway,so you need 2 fp for this to work
     
  39. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom Active Member

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    Dragonite is not bulky. It is 2HKOed or OHKOed by every Ice attack in the game. Ice is the second or third most common attack type (Normal's the most common, and Psychic's about as common as Ice) in RBY OU, usually carried by Tauros (2HKO), Chansey (Ice Beam 2HKOs, Blizzard usually OHKOs), Starmie (Blizzard sometimes OHKOs), Lapras (OHKO), Cloyster (Blizzard OHKOs, Ice Beam usually does), Jynx (OHKO) and Articuno (OHKO), and sometimes carried by Snorlax (2HKO, OHKO with Amnesia) and Dragonite itself (Blizzard sometimes OHKOs) - it's also 2HKOed by Rhydon's Rock Slide. Compare to, for instance, Starmie, which is only guaranteed to be 2HKOed by the Electrics, Gengar, and Victreebel (nothing guarantees an OHKO; only Zapdos and Jolteon Thunders even threaten it), or Tauros which is only guaranteed to be 2HKOed by Articuno's Blizzard or Zapdos' Thunder (nothing can OHKO without a crit).

    And you can, indeed, easily outspeed Dragonite if it has not yet used Agility. Nobody's saying you can outspeed it afterward.

    In Tauros' case it's actually arguable if they have nothing faster (which is more common than in Dragonite's case, since Tauros outspeeds Dragonite and usually won't take para but it doesn't outspeed itself), because Tauros paraslamfullparas and crit Hyper Beams are a real thing.

    Dragonite doesn't have STAB on its Normal move (either Body Slam or Hyper Beam) or as high a crit rate, so it can't pull those shenanigans as easily; Wrap can be stalled out without invoking luck at all.

    Yelling at us in ALL CAPS won't actually help you to be taken seriously.

    If Dragonite gets set up, it can indeed cause major headaches. But given that a good chunk of the meta threaten OHKOs, and that any form of status cripples it, those headaches don't make it overpowered.

    Really good at getting the revenge-kill on Rocks though, since they won't dare to switch lest you Agility for free.

    No. One full paralysis allows it to be attacked, if the full paralysis occurs on the turn Wrap begins (the turn when the Wrap accuracy check is made). Also, paralysing it after it uses Agility requires it to use Agility a second time to regain its Speed.

    So e.g.

    Dragonite vs. Chansey

    DRAGONITE used AGILITY!
    DRAGONITE's SPEED greatly rose!

    CHANSEY used THUNDER WAVE!
    DRAGONITE's paralyzed! It may not attack!

    -----

    CHANSEY used ICE BEAM!
    It's super effective!

    DRAGONITE used AGILITY!
    DRAGONITE's SPEED greatly rose!

    Dragonite's now on a sliver of health and any attack (besides Earthquake or Mega Drain obviously) can finish it, as well as now having an effective 63.75% accuracy on Wrap instead of 85% and only 33.7 effective Base Power instead of 45. If Chansey critted Ice Beam (or had Blizzard and got a decent damage roll), or Dragonite was fully paralysed on the second turn, it would be dead. In any case, there's now a 95% certainty it'll miss in its first 7 Wrap cycles (202 Base Power total, as missed Wraps don't cause damage) and die; 202 Base Power sounds like a lot, but it's still way behind, say, a Golem that didn't do anything else but Explode.
     
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2014
  40. MUMU

    MUMU DNR KILLED IT

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    Chansey is better of running Ice Beam anyway,as Freeze pp>Blizzard power even with 90% accurate blizzard.
    STAB Ice is rare as Ice Types are somewhat rare in ou,and it's mostly staged around normal and psychic types.
    Setting up isn't too easy,but not really hard either,there are often opportunities to set up,given there is enough tank type slow pokemon in the tier,and not all can damage it badly,and it out-speeds a good few before agility as well.
    Anyway,as I said before,the second method,relies on not only paralyzing it but is completely dependent on dragonite to get fully paralyzed,and if that doesn't happen,or happens too late,there is major damage done by then.
     
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2014
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