[RBY] Bind / Clamp / Fire Spin / Wrap Ban Vote

Discussion in 'Past Gens Discussion' started by Halsey, Jun 22, 2014.

?

What in your your opinion is the best option? (Post why in the thread if you wish to do so)

  1. Ban those moves

    34.4%
  2. Ban the combination of those moves + Agility

    13.1%
  3. Do Nothing

    52.5%
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  1. Halsey

    Halsey Wildstar

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    Some people has been asking for this kind of thread for a while so here you go. The first option means all those moves get banned. The second one is a complex ban, the combination of Wrap-like move + Agility would be banned. The three is leave things as they are.

    If you vote, you should explain why you picked what you picked in the thread. This could help some people who are still indecisive on this matter.
     
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  2. Lutra

    Lutra All Gen Battler/Scripter

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    Do nothing. I think wrap adds welcome depth to the simple RBY OU environment. It's an extra challenge to not only utilise it yourself well, consistently, but also to use a standard, non-wrap team to beat wrap tactics and strategy. What's more, you'd just be driving out wrappers like Dre if you decided to ban these moves - I mean it's been over a year now, even if the usage stats don't on the whole reflect a wrap enivironment well (the usage stats only really tell you as far as the non-wrap top 10 but sometimes Lapras even manages to get kicked out). I think in terms of what people think is cheap, it goes Agiliwrap->Wrap->Clamp->Bind->Fire Spin. Fire Spin is barely threatening at all. I don't think a mechanic should be banned just because it bothers extremely impatient people - enduring the partial trapping is hopefully a good skill most people can learn.
     
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2014
  3. Gol D. Roger

    Gol D. Roger Key to Progression

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    Do nothing. Wrap and trapping moves have been a relatively harmless part of the RBY metagame for a long time, and banning the moves would reduce the diversity of usable pokemon in RBY. This wouldn't really be an issue if we were talking XY, but in RBY there are only a handful of commonly used pokemon in the first place, and banning trapping moves essentially eliminates dragonite, cloyster, and the more-niche victreebel and charizard from being usable. The moves in question are weak, and with the exception of dragonite (agility and thunder wave) or victreebel (stun spore) have no way of outspeeding the opponent in order to guarantee that they continue the lockdown. I have beaten trapping teams by simply alternating between my alakazam and tauros until one of them evaded the move, then KOing the spam pokemon.

    Please do not ban these moves, I know it has been brought up before but reducing diversity in what is already the least diverse metagame in Pokemon is a terrible idea.
     
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  4. Pangaea

    Pangaea resto en peaco

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    I would say to ban the combination of Wrap+Agility. While the two moves separate are not so harmless, they are a monster when together. Dragonite abuses this very well. With one Agility, Dragonite can pretty much do a lot to teams in terms of annoyance. Moves such as these, as many of us should know, are very broken this gen, but not too broken that we should ban these moves, but rather ban the combination. A keen example, as I stated above, is Dragonite, who abuses this combination very well. I would like to see the opinion of @Isa about this, however, considering he has been the gym leader of the RBY OU tier for quite some time now.

    Do not ban these moves but rather ban the possibility of these moves on one moveset together.
     
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  5. marcoasd

    marcoasd Well-Known Member

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    Are you serious? Btw hack the game so that everybody who uses it improperly (blind wrapping without switching "Agility-Dnite" style) will get that well deserved miss against Thunder Wave/STAB ice move.
    Reason: Wrap is not op,and wrappers can be hard countered and screwed up with TWave or SE moves.
     
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2014
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  6. Pangaea

    Pangaea resto en peaco

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    The only chance they will have to do that is if Wrap misses. If it doesn't, then they will just have to hope and wait for Wrap to miss. Either that, or they would have to overpredict and use TWave the turn the user uses Agility, but even then the user can over-over predict that and just go for the Wrap/other trapping moves.
     
  7. marcoasd

    marcoasd Well-Known Member

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    Agility Dnite has to find an opening to setup. Outspeed, predict and Wrap? Ok, I send Zam/Starmie/Tauros. It can be para'd the turn it uses Agility. Even then, missing against a STAB ice move means OHKO, and TWave is going to be painful as well. If this happens early, congrats for the waste of a pokemon.
    They can be luck based, but Tauros is a stupid pokemon too, to be honest. They are kind of broken when the counters are gone, or you don't even start with, and that's YOUR fault XD
     
  8. Isa

    Isa Well-Known Tauros

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    I think that Wrap should be banned due to a number of factors that combine to make it too powerful.

    Due to the speed tier that the good Wrappers find themselves in (faster than Lapras but slower than Jynx - nothing else of note resides in that gap (bar Articuno who is never really seen)), they will naturally find themselves with multiple Pokémon that they can stop from moving entirely. The top four Pokémon in RBY are Tauros, Chansey, Exeggutor and Snorlax and the best Wrappers are faster than three out of those, so once you get in, you'll have a free opportunity to Wrap. If Dragonite gets off Agility, everything is outspeeded.

    Wrap has 85% accuracy and Clamp has 75%. Clamp has 35 base power as well as STAB, Wrap has 15 base power and is not seen with STAB (unless you want to use Lickitung). An average Wrapping session will last for three turns, so for the purpose of the following calculations, Wrap will be assumed to have a base power of 45 (15*3) and Clamp will have 157,5 base power (35*3*1,5).

    With an accuracy of 85%, if you stay in during the entire duration, Wrap is expected to hit four times in a row before missing, giving an effective base damage of 180 per use. Wrap has a 30% probability to hit seven times in a row, for an effective base power of 315. Clamp is "only" expected to hit twice in a row before the opponent is released but it's still a base power of 315 coming your way if you stay in. Clamp also has a 30% probability to hit four times in a row for an effective base power of 630.
    As a comparison, Snorlax Selfdestruct, the most powerful move in RBY, has an effective base power of 390 after STAB has been accounted for.


    The best sponge for Wrap is Gengar, as it takes 0 damage due to its immunity to Normal type moves, and is therefore a good counter to Pokémon using Wrap. The second best Wrap sponges are Rock types, which in OU would be Golem and Rhydon. However, Dragonite with Surf and Victreebel with Razor Leaf makes it impossible to use those Pokémon as Wrap sponges if you plan on staying in for the entire duration. Cloyster is the best non-Rock/Ghost type to sponge Dragonite Wraps with (but it can't reliably deal with Victreebel - Razor Leaf deals 84-99% and Blizzard isn't powerful enough to OHKO, so you can't switch in reliably). Four Wrap sessions, when critical hit chance is factored in, deals 39-45% to Cloyster. Seven Wrap sessions with critical hit chance factored in deals 69-81%.
    Dragonite Hyper Beam deals 28-34% to Cloyster, so with roughly 30% probability, a Cloyster that wants to tank the entire Wrap chain from Dragonite will lose without getting an attack out. This is similar to an OHKO move but with the difference that if you fail, you most likely did a lot of damage to the Cloyster.
    The best tank when it comes to dealing with Victreebel is Snorlax, who takes 38-45% from 4 rounds of Victreebel Wrap, and 67-79% from 7 rounds of Wrap. The best tank that also outspeeds Victreebel would be Articuno, who takes a meager 10% on average from 1 round of Wrap. Victreebel can always paralyze a foe if the switch is predicted, but we'll leave that out for now.

    The best sponge for Clamp is Exeggutor, but Lapras is almost as good of a sponge and isn't weak to Blizzard (the difference in damage taken is marginal) so I will calculate Clamp vs. Lapras instead. Two rounds of Clamp will on average deal 25-30%, so this is not too difficult to soak up. Four rounds of Clamp will deal 51-60%. Overall Lapras is a solid response to Cloyster. The second best response to Cloyster (besides Dragonite, who can soak Clamps but is killed instantly by Blizzard) is Chansey who takes 31-37% from two rounds of Clamp and 63-75% from four rounds of Clamp. Hyper Beam from Cloyster finishes off Chansey if you got in four rounds though, as it deals 40% minimum.

    Due to the sheer power of Wrap and Clamp, the best response is more or less always to send in something faster to negate the damage dealt, to avoid getting smashed. Having an unparalyzed Starmie and/or Alakazam is great versus all Wrappers as you can recover back the damage dealt, and you outspeed all Wrappers.

    However, if the only thing that can keep someone from losing a Pokémon to a Wrap user is to switch to something faster...that sounds to me like how we counter OHKO moves in this generation. We banned those, and I believe we should ban Wrap moves as well.
    But let's say that we do employ the proper strategy of switching to something faster every time we get Clamped or Wrapped. We now enter a U-turn like situation, where the user of Wrap/Clamp can switch to an appropriate counter - opponent sent in Starmie? I can send in Chansey, Jolteon, Snorlax, anything I have on hand that I can combat the new opponent with. Not even OHKO moves have that benefit when they're being countered. The downside being that the opponent can switch out as well, but if the Wrap user mispredicts, worst case scenario you didn't take any direct damage from it, whereas if the Wrapped user mispredicts you're entering another chain of Wrap.

    And the elephant in the room that renders all of the above null - Agility Dragonite. There's one complete counter to this strategy, which is Gengar. Other han that, the most reliable counter is to constantly switch between two or more different Pokémon in order to PP drain Dragonite. Misses are not necessarily beneficial to the Wrapped either, as if you're sending in Rhydon to soak Wrap damage but Wrap misses, Dragonite gets a turn to use Surf on, which has perfect accuracy and is more powerful than Wrap. Rhydon is forced out and the Wrap chain continues on the next turn. If you're lucky enough you can stop the Agility, but more often than not that's not the case as Dragonite can often choose when it comes in, especially if paired with another Wrap user.

    Finally, it is incredibly boring to play against Wrap in my opinion. You can switch for 31 rounds if you wish - it is a semi-reliable way to beat Dragonite, but is it fun? Hell no. It turns RBY from a fun metagame to a snooze fest.


    I want no Wrap in my battles.
     
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  9. Pangaea

    Pangaea resto en peaco

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    The master has spoken...ban Wrap from RBY OU!

    Also marcoasd, anyone can easily predict the switch into Starmie/Zapdos and go for Agility, outspeeding, and then trap them in Wrap the following turn, without giving the opponent a chance to paralyze or hit hard for some damage. Also, read Isa's part of his post about Agility Dragonite.
     
  10. marcoasd

    marcoasd Well-Known Member

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    Naaaah just attack that turn, but if Dnite starts wrapping, switch to Starmie/Zap/Zam etc etc, while the Dnite is forced to wrap on the switch!
    That is basically a free BSlam before having something that outspeeds Dnite, vs base speed Dnite.
    I will read another time what Isa said, but what he says falls down to variance, mostly. Wrapping with Dnite against an Ice type can work, but the time it will miss, it will be a disaster.
     
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  11. ZoroDark

    ZoroDark i know everything

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    I'm not sure if a poll is a great idea to fix this issue considering people who know nothing about the tier could influence the results and we wouldn't want that. I thinki just counting the votes of people who post in this thread with some reasoning behind it is a better way to deal with this issue

    I really don't know a whole lot about RBY (and thus I won't vote), but Wrap doesn't seem like a very nice thing to fight. On the other hand, it's a really long time since I've seen it in any RBY battle. That might speak of its viability, that it might be just an annoying gimmick. It might also be that RBY players agree not to bring it or something but idk
     
  12. Gol D. Roger

    Gol D. Roger Key to Progression

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    Just realize that Twave, which is quite prevalent, shuts down all trappers because it ruins their speed advantage and all consistency once paralyzed. Additionally, the fact that three of the four top pokemon are easily wrapped makes the move (and all trapping moves) suitably anti-metagame, which I understand all the "top tier" RBY players loathe, but I personally enjoy some diversity and the chance to use pokemon who would normally be considered unsuitable for standard play. I stand by my previous assertation that trapping moves, and the pokemon they make viable (as well as the hit to viability that "top tier" pokemon take by the existence of the moves) should stay, to encourage a more diverse RBY meta.
     
  13. Golden Gyarados

    Golden Gyarados Active Member

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    I've had this conversation many times and those of you who know me know that I am strongly opposed to Wrap. Isa handled most of the major points already and provided awesome calculations, so to avoid redundancy I won't dive too deep into the numbers. I agree with everything he said and do want to reiterate a few points and add some of my own thoughts:

    There are only three ways to "counter" Wrap: One is to preemptively prevent wrap from starting, by T-Waving the Wrapper on the switch. If the Wrapper switches in and is faster than you (which as Isa illustrated, is more often the case than not), and you didn't HAPPEN to be T-Waving, then Wrap will start and you're hosed. Two is to have a Gengar, and that's not really reliable (it's one of the major reasons I run Gengar so often, though). Three is to hope for a miss and be faster, which is impossible if you're facing Agiwrap. None of that is fun. And like Isa said, "hoping for a miss" is also the only counter for OHKOs, and those are banned for also not being fun and not being counterable (also, the converse, "hoping for a hit" is the only counter to Evasion, and we ban those moves as well). To me, that same logic applies. We ban stuff sometimes.

    I've heard lots of people say that PP-stalling out Wrap is a valid counter-strategy, and I strongly disagree. PP-stalling, one, is very difficult to do with the broken Wrap PP loop. But even beyond that problem, Isa also illustrated just how damaging Wrap's base power becomes. PP-stalling via constant switching gives you two possible openings: if Wrap misses, you can strike back. But that ONLY works if the Pokemon who happened to be in on that turn is faster (which, again, rare [because you're likely switching between rocks] or impossible [if you're facing Agility]), in which case you're forced to keep taking Wraps. The second possible opening is actually burning through the Wrap PP successfully. But if you've burned through 32 Wrap turns, look at Isa's wrap calculations again - you just spread all of that damage across your entire team. That's the definition of over-powered, especially in this generation where moves don't commonly get above 100BP.

    I've also heard people say a good counter-strategy to Wrap is to just make sure your Alakazam or Starmie or whatever stays unparalyzed, so that you can be faster than the Wrapper when he starts his shtick. Keeping those Pokemon unparalyzed is obviously always good advice (Protip RBY beginners: don't get Statused?), but Wrappers usually come out late game when everything is already paralyzed. If your goal is to keep your Zam fresh as a Wrap counter, you have to assume you're facing Wrap every single game just in CASE that last, unseen Pokemon is a Dragonite? That's not very feasible either.

    The other thing I'll mention, and something I feel very strongly about, is the "free switch" element of Wrap. That just adds another layer to the "is this move overpowered" discussion. You've already got a move with, on average, a RIDICULOUS base power, you've got a Pokemon who uses it that is faster than literally everything else, you've got a virtually unlimited PP on this move, and to top it off, you can use it to give yourself a free switch-in to a counter. I know there are players who will talk your ear off about how the free switch-in element is an example of how Wrap can be used as a cunning strategy at high-level play (usually because beginning Wrap players neglect the free switch and instead just spam the move), but honestly, if your strategy to win relies on a move that gives you a free switch-in, which is a benefit you enjoy but that your opponent does not have, then that's not a "strategy," that's playing with a handicap. If we're playing at high levels of competition, hosting tournaments with the best players, we shouldn't be giving players handicaps.

    In short, Wrap isn't fun. It is overpowered when you actually calculate the cumulative damage it causes. It is counterable only by luck (hoping for a miss, T-Waving the Wrapper on the switch [via prediction or blind luck]). It gives the Wrapper a handicap in allowing him or her to enjoy free switches. We've banned things for far less.
     
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2014
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  14. Isa

    Isa Well-Known Tauros

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    For the record, if you try to beat Dragonite's Wrap through PP stalling, you're looking at a 15*34*0.85*1.156 = 501 Base Power move heading your way, coming from the highest Attack stat in the game, potentially with random Surfs thrown in here and there. So while the number for Dragonite's Wrap I threw out earlier was big, this number is even bigger.
     
  15. Fille

    Fille True GenderBender

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    -forget this and forget 1 vote on the 'Do Nothing' part of the voting section, my vote was reckless and I've come to realise I was mistaken, eventho I was right at one point. Looking through the thread makes me think about the total damage, and Isa mentioned (right above) 501 base power + Random (Yet common) Surfs heading your way. The only problem with this is that the easiest way to PP stall would perhaps be to switch between the pokemons (Which is btw where the surf damage comes in), which would split the 501 damage to more than 1 pokemon.

    Basically, I think that wrap is all based on predictions and Theorymonning. splitting the 501 damage (not including fairly common misses) makes it weak, 82.5 BP. Sure, it's alright damage to deal to 6 pokemons while not getting harmed oneself, but is it that big of a deal? It could be, but it's situational. The greater damage (Which includes Surf hits) is based on predictions, theorymonning, or the Dnite will die.
     
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2014
  16. pokemonnerd

    pokemonnerd Only uso listens to pnerd. Devo too. Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    I don't know why people say this brings "diversity" when all Wrap does is shift the top 5 pokemon in the tier around and literally does nothing else. If you want to bring some anti metagame pokemon to your RBY games you can just use Amnesia Snorlax to fuck up Starmie/Zapdos/Exeggutor(if you sleep foddered)/half of the tier.

    Wrap just makes games terribly stale when you can't quite stop the Agility and the only way to combat it when it gets going is hope for a miss or just perpetually switch until it runs its course. I fail to see how this is anything like an interesting strategy and if anyone thinks that it helps bring diversity to RBY they need to redefine what they think diversity is. Wrap only changes the effectiveness of certain pokemon(READ: makes them worse) while making others stand out more. In terms of "diversity" a Wrap metagame is exactly the same as a metagame without the move.

    I mean this is also RBY for crying out loud. It's not meant to be diverse, it's meant to have ridiculously over powered, top heavy pokemon fighting each other while having one or two pokemon relying on broken mechanics(Persian+Slash etc) throwing themselves in the fight once in a blue moon.
     
  17. marcoasd

    marcoasd Well-Known Member

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    First of all, Wrap helps diversity not only for that 4 (or something) users, it triggers changes with the use of Gengar, ice types...
    The thing is, I hate playing against Wrap used in a stupid blind way, but this will end up with a tough lesson for the opponent most of the time.
    Obviously, the opponent can be lucky, but take a look at the usage %, and you'll see...

    I conclude with: if you want to ban Agility (+Wrap) to be sure you won't be facing it, that's fine, as it leads to *that* use.
    The complete Wrap ban is an exaggeration.
     
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  18. Ortheore

    Ortheore One beautiful monster

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    Hi I'm in favour of doing nothing and quite strongly against banning wrap altogether (less so for agiwrap)

    The first point to raise is that the more threatening wrappers (Bel and Dnite imo) have a shit time coming in (Cloy has a solid defensive niche in handling physical attackers like Lax). Dnite is absolutely crippled by paralysis and is mauled by ice attacks (STAB OHKOs, non-STAB 2HKOs, with stronger blizzard users having a chance to OHKO), both of which are incredibly prevalent in RBY OU. Victreebel has it even worse, as it's let down by its piss-poor bulk and poison typing, which allow many things to wreck it. Both of these pokemon have very little defensive utility.

    Wrap without agility is easily handled- firstly, there are plenty of pokemon which can easily tank a wrap chain, outspeed and cripple the wrapper, idk why people are ignoring that fact, since it's pretty fucking relevant, as the vast majority of them pose huge problems for Bel and Cloy. Slower pokemon that can conceivably be used against wrap like Egg and Lapras still hold an upper hand because of the fact that wrap and clamp are unreliable and the pokemon using it has glaring defensive deficiencies. One turn is often all that is necessary to shut down a wrap user. But the whole thing is irrelevant anyway because those pokemon will usually force Bel/Cloy out simply because the risk of staying in and chancing a possible miss far outweighs the benefits.

    Also I feel like pointing out that spouting calculations equating usage of wrap/clamp to a certain bp is a pretty notable misrepresentation, given that it's not just another attack, it occurs over multiple turns and the player facing it is free to distribute that damage over his team however they like. Any pokemon can be made to look like an unstoppable juggernaut when you examine its base power over several turns of attacking.

    I'll probably add more later, especially since I've barely mentioned Dnite
     
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  19. Lutra

    Lutra All Gen Battler/Scripter

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    Well, when you have threatening moves, not just broken ones, like wrap, it will put pressure on the teams that can deal with nearly everything, the top ladder teams. It could reduce the effectiveness of an otherwise top team in a non-wrap environment and it could increase the effectiveness of an otherwise not-so-good team that gets better because of wrap. So this could bring about some kind of diversity at the very top with teams, but still it's one more threatening mechanic for a team to deal with, so overall, in a competitively played environment, you'd expect more 'good' non-wrap teams to reduce in effectiveness than wrap teams increase in it.

    On the other hand, if you ban something, you are removing the mechanic, so making the battles in the banned environment have less diversity potential than the ones in the unbanned environment. In this case, you'd be removing wrap or all partial trapping moves, and the few tactics/strategies that deal with them, from being used.
     
  20. MUMU

    MUMU DNR KILLED IT

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    Personally I think a suspect of WRAP+AGILITY is probably the most productive way to take,as it limits the most powerful User of this suspect to a non-broken level,obviously Fire Spin/Clamp is nowhere near as broken, but Dragonite with WRAP+AGILITY is by far the most dangerous thing relevant to this and is the main reason people are actually complaining,unlike other wrap sweepers,Dragonite has not only the highest attack AND coverage surf,but also can ignore speed drops from paralysis after an agility,allowing it to clearly out-speed the whole tier,do massive damage,in the end the strategy is similar to stall,except it can destroy teams by itself unless it miss,and of course,Dragonite is a rather bulky pokemon,so taking it out in 1 hit is pretty hard too,I wouldn't say it's over-centralizing but it limits the opponent quite a bit in that it forces them to play out of the way.
     
  21. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom Active Member

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    AgiliWrap Dragonite is good and can single-handedly win games given the right circumstances and a healthy dose of luck.

    So can Slowbro and Tauros. This is RBY we're talking about.

    If it's not a dominating strategy, it doesn't need a ban. It's just one more reason to run a Rock (to PP-stall Wrap), to run Stun Spore on Exeggutor (Dragonite's most common setup bait being Mega Drain Egg that's thrown sleep), to run Night Shade Gengar, or to not get Starmie/Zam/Tauros/whatever paralysed so they can't checkmate Dragonite facing something with a para move.

    Banning Victreebel and Cloyster is just a total joke, obviously.

    To be blunt, banning something for pulling wins out of its butt is retarded when there are unbanned things that more reliably pull wins out of their butt. You want a metagame where things don't pull wins out of their butt? Don't play RBY OU.


    @MUMU Starmie's Blizzard can OHKO Dragonite, Chansey's usually does. Anything that crits or has STAB will do it easy (Cloyster, Lapras, Jynx are all definite OUs, Articuno's either BL or OU depending on who you ask). Blizzard's one of the most common moves in RBY; Dragonite is NOT bulky in the RBY OU environment where almost nothing gets OHKOed under normal circumstances.
     
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2014
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  22. Celestial Phantom

    Celestial Phantom YAHA

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    Wrap: Dragonite, Victreebel, Tentacruel, Dragonair, and Lickitung. Fire Spin: Charizard, Moltres, Ninetales, and Rapidash. Bind: lol Onix and Tangela. Clamp: Cloyster

    Those are the pokemon that basically would carry these moves in RBY. Honestly, I nevermind the trapping moves, however I never liked them to be usable in the first place. Easily, none of these really scream "broken" as they have a less than stellar accuracy, though everything in RBY can miss, but still 85%/70%/75%/75% is a pretty unreliable thing and can be within the past generational tiers. Looking at them from here 3 of the 4 are resisted by the conventional rock type. While Fire Spin is resisted by water etc and clamp gets a resist from grass types.

    They can tank a session and do damage once they are freed if they outspeed or if the opponent misses the trapping move at some point. However, that's one of the major points is that until they miss you literally can't do anything until the session stops after 2-5 turns. Which means if can sit there and spam the move and if it's got decent coverage i.e. dragonite with surf for those rock types they can have a fair impact on the match if they can do any point of damage against your current pokemon to "storm the weather" of the trap move. One of the things I'd like to point out is that in RBY there's a severe lack of reliable recovery to go around outside stamie/zam recover and chansey soft-boiled outside stuff that might use rest. This means that trapping moves will whittle down the HP enough to after a few hits/rounds of wrap that depending on coverage moves Hyper Beam can come into play and do a hefty amount, or a some other big move can do damage once enough has been done. The entire point of the move is to force your opponent to do nothing while their hp is slowly going down about 5-7% each turn which if it doesn't miss at the start will do a fair amount of damage over time.

    For those saying, "send out something fast to cripple with T-wave", if it's in the middle of a wrap chain, they still can't move until the wrap is over. If it switches in on the turn it's used, hi they still can't move. The only way that it would work to make them slower is if your Thunder-Wave/Crippler is already out with the trap user. At worst they wait the potential 3-5 turns out, and you can send out a Thunder-Wave sponge. I.E. something like chansey or something I like to call a ground type like rhydon/golem depending on what's trying to thunder wave. Any trap user can I dunno...switch? after the chain is over. It's not like it will 100% go work especially if the intent to paralyze is pretty obvious, which can just give your opponent some switching momentum themselves if they have something that doesn't mind being paralyzed (there are a few pokes who don't), or are immune to it. There's only so much variety to the tier in which most teams should run a chansey/ground (which is also rock) anyway so you can keep other teammates HP up.

    Case in point: RBY is filled with threatening pokemon and threatening moves. For the trapper pokemon with some good speed, these moves help whittle down opponents to the point that those threatening moves will actually mean something without them taking very much if any damage at all. While the user of the move can SWITCH (IT IS A TACTIC) to something else if need be.

    I mean as pnerd said this is fucking RBY for crying out loud. You have 149 pokemon available to use in RBY OU. About half of them really are usable (since lol first stagers), and around a total of like 30-40 would get any real use in RBY OU. You literally don't have much if any diversity to begin with. You play based on predictions, hope you don't take massive damage by predicting right, counterattacking and obv HYPER BEEEEEEEAAAAAAMMMMMM everything (not really, but somewhat).

    Oh if wasn't clear, I'm in favor of total ban of all. I thought of toying with agiliWrap, but then realized that some Fire Spin and other Wrap users actually have decent enough speeds to make use of the moves without a boost and some wrap users have usable movepools as well to make use of the Wrap trapping strategy (Fire Spin users have shitty movepools). So, while AgiliWrap takes care of dnite/dragonair, there are other things that take advantage of it.
     
  23. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom Active Member

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    The way you cripple Wrap users when they get in against something slower is this.

    1. Use a paralysing or OHKOing move with your currently-in Pokemon.
    2. If they Agilitied or Stun Spored, you win.
    3. If they Wrapped, switch to something faster. They are locked into Wrap.
    4. Tank the Wrap sequence (not hard for 1 sequence).
    5. Use a paralysing or OHKOing move. You win.

    You can in some cases get screwed into sacrificing a Pokemon if they get in safely against something they OHKO with one of their other moves (ie, Golem/Rhydon in vs. Victreebel/Surf Dnite). But ZOMG REVENGE KILLING SO BROKEN seriously just use Tauros it can revenge-kill things other than Rocks.
     
  24. Ortheore

    Ortheore One beautiful monster

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    You mention this like the process of wearing down a mon into HBeam range is something that's regular. It really isn't. first there's the obvious issue of reliability, given the moves' flawed accuracy. You also seem to be overlooking the fact that the player facing wrap is free to distribute wrap damage throughout his team however they want- once you've used a wrapping move you're locked in as well until you switch or the wrap is allowed to go through to completion. This is a really big deal, because it makes the process you described a hell of a lot rarer than otherwise.
    Except the fact that you've forced out the wrapper is a pretty big deal, because of how hard it is for them to come in. Cloy can take on physical attacker like Lax and GolDon (which means taking Bslams and risking para), but the other 2 viable wrappers have extremely limited switch-in opportunities because literally everything in OU has some way of fucking them up. Also if we're talking about a switch to Chansey (which is likely in that situation) that's still not bad because a para'd blob is practically begging for you to bring some physical attackers and start wearing down their team. But I guess that's kinda going on a tangent
    So uh, what's your point here? I hope you're not implying that because the tier lacks diversity relative to other tiers (even then there's a hell of a lot more things to try than you're making out) we should totally disregard diversity, because if that is what you're implying, then frankly that's a load of fucking shit, seeing as diversity does nothing but make things more enjoyable.

    Sorry if the language bothered you, but that kind of attitude came across as dismissing RBY as a whole, which rather pissed me off
    Except literally everything that uses fire spin struggles to justify a spot in OU even with Fire spin. Quite frankly, I really don't see how fire spin is remotely relevant to the discussion, because it's simply not effective/reliable enough to impact games the way wrap does
     
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  25. pokemonnerd

    pokemonnerd Only uso listens to pnerd. Devo too. Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    I'm glad you found a way to somehow always have a pokemon that's faster active in the match at all times. Or to make Wrap miss all the time after 1 sequence. You need to teach me how to do this.

    As for #3, your faster pokemon still cannot move if it switches in. After it can move, the wrapper can simply swap out for something to tank the paralysis or whatever move you think can OHKO Dragonite besides Blizzard.

    I think you need to refresh on how RBY mechanics work.

    Honestly I'm all for Agility+Wrap ban over Wrap since Dragonite is the only thing in possession of a trapping move that can nearly sweep teams with some good luck.

    @Ortheore

    I don't see how you think that weakening pokemon to get into Hyper Beam range is a strange tactic to use with Wrap. It's Tauros' modus operandi when it's not Body Slamming everything that's not a rock. Actually with Wrap it's an extremely reliable tactic since 85 accuracy still hits a vast majority of the time. I don't know why people keep treating it like it has OHKO move worthy accuracy. Blizzard only has 5% more and that hits way more than it misses.

    Basically his point in those paragraphs is that Wrap users(mainly Dragonite) can easily continuously weaken a team no matter what pokemon you send out, especially if it grabbed an agility so it can Wrap more than once. Which goes back to me supporting Agility+Wrap being banned.

    Also, you try and argue diversity, yet you say even with Fire Spin Fires still have extremely glaring flaws that prevent their use outside of how they're already being utilized. How would keeping the moves help with diversity? Honestly even if something like SD / Fire Spin / physical moves Charizard became that good in OU simply due to that move as opposed to being mediocre now, that would be extremely telling of how wrapping moves can be considered overpowered. Again, even with fire spin, it's not that much of a threat, so agility+wrap would still be ideal in my mind here.

    Also, RBY is the least diverse generation. Even without comparing it to other generations, RBY is still laughably stagnant when it comes to what you can actually use and still be successful. It's because of how the special stat works and that there are, realistically, 7-8 actual good pokemon in the game, with about 10 others having niches in countering these pokemon. And when I say "countering" I mean "deal with these adequately enough to not lose 100% of the time." Which is why trying to argue about diversity in this generation is so fucking absurd. It already pigeonholes you into using certain pokemon and Wrap only slightly changes which pokemon can hold a niche among the S and A tiered gods.

    I love RBY, don't get me wrong. But saying the tier is diverse is either letting your enjoyment of the tier cloud your judgement or just not paying attention to how bad 90% of the available pokemon actually are compared to Snorlax, Chansey or Tauros, among 3 or 4 others.

    I mean again, I'm all for Wrap+Agility being banned to "save Wrap" and keep the minimum amount of things banned, but I can see why people want trapping moves gone and can get behind a total ban of them as well.
     
  26. Pangaea

    Pangaea resto en peaco

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    It seems a lot of people here have not played RBY OU and do not understand how Wrap works this gen. Wrap will keep you trapped, forever, unless it misses. So those of you who are saying "oh just switch into Starmie when he used wrap and then TWave," well that wouldn't work since he would be trapped in Wrap. Combine that with a Dragonite on Agility + the highest attacking stat in the tier + very good coverage with Surf = very broken and should be banned.

    Also magic9mushroom, even if your Pokemon is faster than the wrapper, if they manage to use Wrap on you, you're still trapped into Wrap and can't move, regardless you have faster speed. Also, if they happen to miss, they can just switch into a tank to take a TWave or Super Effective move for Dragonite.
     
  27. Celestial Phantom

    Celestial Phantom YAHA

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    I know it's not. The most common pokemon to encounter this in is dragonite. Wrap + Hyper Beam mostly is a standard with something like surf for rock types. I used Hyper Beam for the example because the thing will nuke what you have in after a few uses of wrap depending if it's the 2 turn or full 5 distribution. Even if you are distributing it over pokemon and it getting locked in, the attack itself will do a massive amount to any one pokemon after it's been used a few times. Add in if it gets a KO, it doesn't need a recharge turn, well if you distribute it long enough, your just putting yourself in a nuking range. The other users don't have the full power behind it, and I agree they aren't doing a hell of a lot, but they can start getting enough damage that those bigger moves and threats actually mean something.

    Yes you've forced it out, but doesn't mean it can't come back in under the same conditions if it's forced and you predict it. Of course the only things that Dragonite truly fears is coming in an Ice move, Edit: T-wave, or Body Slam. Any other moves used it takes marginal damage to allow it's set up. The fire spin users of course fear water/ground attacks while are not wanting to take a hit from say Psychic. Most of the pokemon using trapping moves aren't such a threat they get forced out pretty easily because they fear certain moves if they are strong enough. Though they do create a sense of fear in the fact you outspeed the opponent that you whittle their HP down to the point they can do damage with those massive moves (I.E. Hyper Beam, Blizzard) and the like as the point is to kill your opponents as fast as you can while taking as little damage, and without much recovery in the gen which can easily put opponents at a disadvantage.

    My point was aimed at the people who tried to use diversity as a fucking reason to keep it. It's not a good one in a tier with so little that succeeds and is more niche or just passing through the match as something to absorb a hit and do something back or lead into something else. I mean let's add double team and evasion back into gens 1-6, especially 3-6 so moves like shadow punch, aerial ace, and swift have use. That's diversity right? The reason I use that as a bullshit example? Trapping moves do the same thing in which you can't attack, and just have to wear out the 32 PP of whatever is out there which realistically isn't hard to do. But, over time as long as they don't miss (which has an ok chance of happening) will slowly kill you off without you having a real chance to get it back especially when rolls mean everything in this tier when it is needed and having enough HP to tank something necessary is the one thing every poke wants, but not everything gets. Especially when they aren't in this tier bar a few pokes with recover/softboiled. I already pointed out that fire spin users are pretty shit and have use for having a good speed that traps pokes and slowly does damage because they can't do anything to any other pokes because of a lack of usable attacks. Cloyster can boom and has usable water/ice moves. For those on the it can miss train and speaking about blizzard or something, it has just as bad accuracy. Just throwing out that Trap move users aren't alone, and aren't really going to sweep a team unless it's dragonite putting everything you have into HyperBeam range. They do have teammates, and most of which can be powerful enough to take advantage of something not attacking for 2-5 repeatedly especially if they are fast users who can force something to not attack for turns over while slowly bringing your HP down.

    Also on the "I'm dismissing RBY as a whole", understandable, but I'm one of the few active auths on here (both server, and mega user status) that has always tried to get the tier played if it's added, when it's going, and add in on the fun. I've even made the MUs try over the last year or so since I've been in this spot. I know how RBY works, I enjoy it honestly I do, especially games I've played against Golden Gyarados, Isa, among a fair amount of others. I'm not dismissig it, I really would enjoy seeing people take to past gen tiers.
     
  28. Da Funky Dragonfly

    Da Funky Dragonfly New Member

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    A fourth option "ban Wrap only" would be clearly ahead.
     
  29. Finchinator

    Finchinator IT’S FINK DUMBASS

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    I'm not sufficient in experience (specifically first-hand) to leave a lengthy remark and a justified opinion, but this should be responded to briefly.

    [​IMG]
    "Those moves" = Bind, Clamp, Fire Spin, etc. (idk if there are anymore - whirlpool isn't rby iirc). This essentially fits what you're saying, only it has all of the moves that have comparable effects added in. Please think before you post in the future.
     
  30. Da Funky Dragonfly

    Da Funky Dragonfly New Member

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    Are you telling me Clamp, Fire Spin and Wrap are the same moves? Laughable enough that a "special" user urges me to think more although he should be the one. (But thanks for your attempts to help!)
     
  31. NotMafia

    NotMafia Miltank: Destroyer of Souls

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    Genuinely not sure if you trolling, but I'll bite. What distinguishes Wrap from the other trapping moves that much that only banning wrap would be the most popular option?
     
  32. Finchinator

    Finchinator IT’S FINK DUMBASS

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    They have the same effect, ofc they aren't the same moves - the only main difference is a slight variation in power/accuracy and typing. They still are all under the same umbrella categorization. Dragonite uses Wrap, Cloyster uses Clamp, and Charizard (lol) uses Fire Spin.

    Also, stop acting like you're better than people (me in particular) when you're just making a fool out of yourself, thanks.
     
  33. Lutra

    Lutra All Gen Battler/Scripter

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    @Finchinator

    The point is banning Wrap would be a simple ban in place of Agility + Wrap that would eliminate probably the next most threatening partial trapper after Dragonite, Victreebel (eliminate the partial trapper use of the Pokémon, not themselves).

    A 'slight' variation in accuracy has a large impact. Imagine if Metagross in future generations had a 75% or 70% accuracy Meteor Mash, would you risk using it as much?
     
  34. Finchinator

    Finchinator IT’S FINK DUMBASS

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    Yes, I understand the ban of Agility + Wrap, but banning Wrap single-handedly (and not these other moves) is what he's proposing. There's hardly any point in leaving moves like Clamp alone while banning Wrap without throwing in the conjunction of agility alongside it in the ban, so the poll's OP groups them together (hence options 1 & 2). Moreover, his claim for Wrap alone being 'more popular an option' than anything elsen doesn't seem too on-target, either.

    If there is really so much of a justifiable reason that makes Wrap on Dnite or Victreebel so much better/increasingly controversial than clamp on Cloyster, then sure it's worth looking into as a potential move ban, but does it without agility still deserve any mention?
     
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2014
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  35. Golden Gyarados

    Golden Gyarados Active Member

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    Now that I think about it, I wouldn't mind banning everything but Fire Spin, if it makes a fire move more popular :P I literally just battled a wrap team that had the good fortune to freeze TWO of my Pokemon throughout the match ... but I just kept switching the frozen Pokemon into Fire Spin and getting thawed XD
     
  36. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Badged Deucer

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    Personally I've thoroughly anti-wrap ban, but I acknowledge Isa makes good points. Personally I think agilinite is kind of an average pokemon choice.. it has a lot of risk involved with trying to set up a sweep with it [tauros outspeeding doesn't help], and to be honest I agree with Dre.'s point [he hasn't posted in the thread this is elsewhere] that cloy/bell are better trappers because they use it to set up sweeps for other pokemon, allowing heavy prediction based upon the knowledge about how wrap immobilises pokemon.. those pokemon add additional depth to the game in my opinion. Cloyster has a lot of issues using clamp especially if you were to god forbid try and sweep with it. It does have huge defensive flaws; it does have that tankish defence stat which lets it come in versus [non-electric] tauros for example, or lax, as well as the option of explosion, but it also is a free switch into zapdos/jolteon/starmie, and can only stay in in a really tight pinch vs lapras/chansey assuming they carry tbolt, which is common but not certain. Bell has its own gamut of tools, but it also has horrible defensive typing, and frailty. Again, this pokemon should not be used for sweeping [which it seems is what makes it 'broken' within the context of this discussion]; it can force out rocks, and for example paralysed starmie, but most teams have 3 or 4 [very rarely they might have only 2, or heck 5 or 6] pokemon that outspeed it, and the point is every team will naturally have at least a couple of solid bell checks, leading to I having to not play as a sweeper, but rather act as a pokemon supporting other pokemon sweep [which is something totally unique within this metagame]. There is nothing broken about that , in my personal opinion. And wrap's average 85% accuracy is pretty shaky too.. to give a sense of how shaky, freezes happen most games, when often ice beam and blizzard are only thrown around a few times [neglecting ice spam teams and the chansey stall war - I admit removing that last bit makes this analogy unhelpful in some ways - maybe someone could improve it?] Now they have a 10% chance to freeze, so given a few hits of wrap, you would expect it to, often enough to try and make use of, miss, especially since if wrap is carried on dragonite, assuming the player managed to get it in safely on something it can wrap versus, and that typically half the members of an RBY team, maybe more, maybe less, carry an ice move or a paralysis-inducing move [that's probably 4-5 mons tbh] every miss will be critical for dragonite. Failing that, you can stall the PP; okay and also as mentioned before pokemon like gengar in particular weaken the strength of this strategy, I personally find that wrap has enough debilitating factors to make it not broken, whilst enough interesting uses to increase the diverstity in the way the tier is played. No tl;dr for you, but this is why I personally feel that allowing wrap to remain in the tier is acceptable, and I can also appreciate why people might be against wrap; neither side is nessecarily correct, but personally after having a few months of experience of the tiier, being around great players and contributing with the rest of the community, I think wrap should stay.
     
  37. Lutra

    Lutra All Gen Battler/Scripter

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    What?! Chansey, Exeggutor, Golem, Lapras, Rhydon, Snorlax? 4 of them often make up the defensive core of teams, with a lead and Tauros. So at most between 2 and 3 average.
     
  38. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Badged Deucer

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    okay, valid point. Still, having 2-3 typically outspeeding is enough, especially since you can switch easily in some ways under wrap, and tauros is usually preserved for until later in the game anyway. And a lot of the slower pokemon can handle it should it miss as well, for that list I saw ice beam, psychic, doesn't beat it but takes virtually nothing from wrap so is a helpful switch abuser, blizzard, same as golem, any of lax's attacks will hurt too, should wrap miss. The threat of sleep on top of that is worth considering I guess but teams have to handle sleep, and either something will be slept already, or a way to handle sleep should usually be left, for example alakazam, which also outspeeds bell and has SE STAB, as well as being able to use wrap turns to wake it up. So your point is valid, but I don't think it discounts mine.
     
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  39. Lutra

    Lutra All Gen Battler/Scripter

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    Okay, well the argument for simple bans is they don't need to be scripted - e.g. you can ban Wrap in the tiers.xml, allowing all servers to implement the ban easily, but you can't for Agility + Wrap, which is a complex ban. I'd still say Wrap is better than Clamp without Agility, but I'm not arguing where the ban threshold is.

    I don't see the obsession with grouping all the partial trapping moves together for a ban though. A lot of players complain about the damage from Clamp and Wrap, not Bind and Fire Spin. I'd rather ban things because players think they are overpowered, not because they hate a mechanic in battle.
     
  40. Golden Gyarados

    Golden Gyarados Active Member

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    I don't suppose there's a possibility that we could implement this as a Clause, rather than a tier ban? I know nothing about the workings of the PO program itself, but I imagine it would be pretty difficult. Still, it seems like a solid compromise - right now, we're split 50/50 - 50% of the votes want no ban, 50% want SOME kind of change. Making it an optional clause would allow people to continue to play how they like, but official tours could specify the matches must include the "no Wrap" clause
     
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