You rarely need to double-switch to bring in Lapras, unlike Dragonite. Lapras comes in on Exeggutors not using Stun Spore without any issues, all non-STAB Earthquakes are similarly free (or just Body Slams that aren't paralyzing), and even if you try to go for a double-switch and fail your prediction, the result is rarely as bad as if Dragonite or Zapdos were to attempt the same thing. Lapras is very self-reliant and doesn't require any lure support, I don't see what you mean by that. edit: I disagree with Gengar being worn down quicker than Dragonite in this scenario If Dragonite comes in on something slower (say Exeggutor) at full health, and uses Wrap before using Agility, the Wrapped player is free to go to something overall more durable than Gengar like Starmie. If Agility is used, Exeggutor gets a turn to do whatever - let's say it lacks Stun Spore, and doesn't want to boom because it doesn't KO, so it uses Psychic. Dragonite goes for Wrap the following turn, Gengar comes in and takes no damage. Even if Dragonite has Blizzard instead of Surf, the extra damage from Psychic ensures a 3HKO from Night Shade, and Gengar can afford to use Thunderbolt once in hope of a Critical Hit as well while still reaching the 3HKO, regardless of rolls. Meanwhile Dragonite with Blizzard has an unlikely 4HKO. If Dragonite switches out while Gengar stays in (I'd argue that the Gengar can risk a turn of Wrap damage onto something like a Snorlax here and in the previous scenario), Gengar might stare down a Tauros which no doubt would be a nuisance, but there's still ways out like Snorlax/Cloyster/Lapras/Articuno - none of those mind switching in on an Earthquake and can handle taking a Body Slam. The next time Dragonite comes in (and it has to find a way to come in as well) it has taken ~33% from the Psychic and is thus within solid boom range from Exeggutor or any other boom you'd want to see.
Lapras loses to Egg if it switches into a specfall Psychic. Non-STAB EQs = Tauros and Snorlax EQs = Lapras can't force them out (Tauros EQ + Bslam + Bslam + Hbeam = KO, Lapras usually doesn't 2HKO; Snorlax can SD for a trade and occasionally survives 3 Blizzards).
I don't see why dragonite stays B because it needs support, when tauros needs support too. Tauros does three things- revenge KO, hit and-run, and sweep. All three of those things require support because it can't take hits (or doesn't like to). It needs support and is inconsistent, but its S tier because of the threat it provides. There seems to be a huge bias towards pokemon that don't need support to do their job (ie. can switch in easily and have an easy job to do) and then tauros because its been the long-time undisputed god of OU. The list seems to arbitrarily favour defensive pokemon with medium level offensive threat. There's just no way that that tauros is two tiers better than dragonite when they have a similar level of threat and require virtually the same level of support. If this list wants to be consistent, by it's own logic Tauros should drop to A or B, or it should do what's more sensible and bump dragonite to at least A.
You are correct, the list favors pokemon that doesn't need a lot of support. Read the definitions of each tier. The more support something needs, the higher the chance that it's got a low rank. You don't need much support to revenge kill with Tauros. You need it with Zam (Chansey must be gone at all costs) and Snorlax (the opponent must be paralyzed) but Tauros doesn't need either unless trying to revenge Zam or Starmie (or Agility users). Dragonite requires far more support to do what it wants.
Really cool and handy list Isa, thanks for making it! Anyway, I feel Charizard belongs to be here, even if it's only a D-rank poke. While (ofc) it isn't the best mon of RBY, it's the best SD user. It has better bulk than Victreebel and it can shred Eggy and Lapras with Fire Blast. It's actually a rather big threat if it gets to +2. I know it's not easy to set up and that it's easily para'd by Starmie and Alakazam, but hey, what would you expect from a C/D mon? It's also one of the only Fire types that can accurately deal with Rock type pokemon. Overall, Charizard is the best SD and Fire-type mon, and while that's not saying much it still should warrant a spot on this list.
The pokemon needs to be low enough to be in KO range, which requires support because tauros isn't the one getting them low. If you don't damage/paralyse everything first, tauros won't do anything. That's why you save it til last, because it needs the most support. Metalgross- Sorry but a lot of what you said was wrong. Firstly, charizard is nowhere near the best SD user in OU. That title probably goes to kingler, but kingler has competition from sandslash, victreebel and(some would say kabutops too). Most top players seem to think that kingler is better than sandslash, and SD isn't victreebel's best set (although victreebel is a better pokemon than kingler). Kabutops is probably better too because at least he can set up on hyperbeams and water is actually good stab for a mixed sweeper since it OHKOs rocks. Heck tentacruel is probably a better SDer than charizard, because at least it has wrap and stab hydro pump coming off 120 special. Venusaur, who is basically an inferior victreebel is probably a better SDer too because it has a good typing for a mixed sweeper and has status as well. Charizard has a terrible typing and mediocre stats. He's at least 3HKO'd by everything in the meta and has poor offences stats with no good stabs. His only decent stat is speed, but 100 speed is actually not that good for an SDer. He's too slow to outspeed the fast pokemon in the meta, but he's fast enough for his crit rate to nullify his stat boosts fairly often (not like charizard will ever get to +4 anyway). Fire is a bad type in general but it's especially bad for a mixed sweeper seeing as it gets resisted by rock, which is the typing that makes mixed sweepers appealing in the first place (well that and ghost). Secondly, moltres is the best fire type in the game simply because its stats are way better, and at least has agility-fire spin. Even if charizard was the best fire type in the game, that wouldn't mean anything because fire is probably literally the worst type in the game.
Revenge killing isn't done from full HP under any circumstances in RBY or GSC. A revenge killer isn't supposed to be some Pokémon that OHKOs the meta if it gets a free switch, which you seem to imply. A revenge killer is supposed to do exactly what it says - finish off a Pokémon that has just recently killed one of your Pokémon. It should have enough fire power to make sure the opponent doesn't switch out to something else in order to tank it, and Tauros is the only Pokémon that can do that reliably in RBY. You seem to be stuck in the mindset that Tauros is a sweeper, but it's primary role isn't to sweep, it's to revenge kill. Sweeping is very situational and indeed requires a lot of support.
You're too high on Charizard tbh. The stats are pretty mediocre and the typing sucks (Rock Slide hits x4 and OHKO and Lapras' Blizzard for +75%). Kingler is arguabily the best Swords Dancer (mostly due to that 358 attack), while Victrebeel usually has more troubles against Tauros. Even with that, Razor Leaf, Sleep and Stun more the surprise (Bel is more often a Wrapper) make Bel>Charizard. Yeah, maybe it's the best fire type due to SD, but Moltres has great stats once the counters are gone (still not worth it). And to be honest, discussing Dnite>Tauros makes no sense at all. Maybe it fits better in a Wrap team, but we're ranking pokémon in a Wrap meta, not pokémon in a Wrap team.
No I'm saying that there will be nothing to revenge if tauros got no support. Your other pokemon still need to get the enemy's pokemon low for tauros to be able to revenge. If a pokemon is low enough to be revenged, it's because another pokemon put it that low. Considering that tauros is reliant on its teammates to damage the enemy pokemon first so it can do its job, I'd say it's support-dependent. Marco- No one is saying that dragonite is better, but there's no way that dragonite is two tiers worse than tauros when tauros has to compete for a team slot with dragonite in the wrap meta. Again I'm pretty sure that the B tier placing is just a result of the non-wrap sentiment making wrap come accross ass a gimmic strategy. There's no way dragonite would be as low as B in a meta that had developed where wrap had been accepted from the beginning.
Dragonite does have enough firepower to make sure the opponent doesn't switch out to something else in order to tank it. Icy's calcs over on 2K10 show very well that if you switch on Dnite and it Agilities, you are in for a world of hurt with very little you can do about it. As such, Dragonite has about the same degree of safety as Tauros in Hyper Beaming weakened stuff or Surfing Rocks. Both are revenge killers that threaten to sweep if an opponent tries to avoid the revenge-kill and the user predicts; you can't really say that one requires support and the other doesn't. Bwahahaha. Charizard is not the best SDer by a long way. It can't OHKO Chansey with Hyper Beam at +2; it doesn't even have a guaranteed OHKO on Zam. Fire Blast only 4HKOs Lapras because it's neutral; Lapras, however, 2HKOs with its super-effective Blizzard (Fire doesn't resist Ice in RBY). It can't touch the Rocks unless it burns with Fire Blast because +2 EQ is still only a 2HKO and Rock Slide OHKOs easily. Also have fun undoing freezes and burning Starmie, that'll help a lot. Fire is one of the worst attack typings in RBY because Skarmory/Forretress/Steelix don't exist yet and Blizzard is better against Grasses. The best Swords Dancers are Kingler and Victreebel, because both have powerful special attacks that OHKO the Rocks unboosted and make big dents in neutral targets (and, in Victreebel's case, keep Starmie out of its face and shred Slowbro), and have enough Attack to threaten to OHKO Chansey with +2 Hyper Beam (Kingler guarantees it and can sometimes even OHKO Starmie at +2). Victreebel also has status. Kabutops and Sandslash are probably the next best. Best Fire type? Eh, maybe. AgiSpin Moltres is a pretty cool dude too, and its Fire Blast hits much harder (guaranteed vs. impossible 2HKO on Tauros, for instance) - plus, Fire Spin synergises perfectly with burns so its STAB isn't such a liability. They're both pretty terrible, though.
Dragonite isn't a very good revenge killer compared to Tauros. His Hyper Beam is unSTABed so he needs his foes to be at lower percentages, he is slower which means that he can't revenge kill unparalyzed Jynx or Zapdos and he doesn't have a speed tie against Tauros or Gengar, his coverage is more limited with just Hyper Beam plus Surf/Blizzard compared to Tauros with three different types of attacks, and his base speed is much much lower, so he doesn't get that clutch critical hit as frequently if a mispredict happens. You can't revenge kill with Wrap either as it deals too little damage in one setting and allows your opponent to switch out, and if you use Agility, you've just _not_ revenge killed it. You can start a sweep afterwards, assuming that the weakened mon in front of you failed to kill or cripple you...and sure, Dragonite is good at that come late game. But that's not revenge killing, that's straight up sweeping. Dragonite is better at that than Tauros, but it doesn't mean he is a better revenge killer - that's a dumb argument.
[QUOTE="No one is saying that dragonite is better, but there's no way that dragonite is two tiers worse than tauros when tauros has to compete for a team slot with dragonite in the wrap meta.[/QUOTE] Of course, it is. Everybody knows who's the king of rby, and there are several reasons. Do you understand that Body Slam is the best move of the game? That CHs count? Simply, Tauros can revenge kill because it has a guaranteed damage input on the active pokémon, and nothing can switch in completely safely. Dragonite can do that only on rocks, if they don't want to let you setup (and I would). I reiterate that for the final sweeping: it has a good guaranteed damage input + chance to go nuts. Where is Dnite guaranteed damage input? Surf? Maybe it could pack Earthquake or Body Slam, but it's pretty easy to understand it has troubles with 2 slots being taken (in the same way Starmie lacks a STAB move in the standard moveset). Also, it has the chance to miss and be OHKO'd, and once paralyzed it will do nothing, even if the opponent is paralyzed as well. Also, setting up for a revenge kill is a common thing for a standard team. I found out myself it won't happen that often using Cloyster and Victrebeel, but again, we're not talking about who's best on the same team with those. It's dangerous like Slowbro is, or something like that. Tauros is not even dangerous, it's the main thing you need to stop in order to win a game.
Rocks and anything in range of Hyper Beam. 366 Attack gives it some pretty damned high thresholds for KOs. Also, nothing can switch into Tauros completely safely, but that applies even more to Dragonite.
Revenging with Hyper Beam is never that good, and that's very predictable from Dnite. Ice types can switch safely into both Agility and Hyper Beam (farewell Dnite).
Except that any attempt to predict and trap the Nite risks Agility. No, they can't switch safely into Agility. The only thing that can switch safely into Agility is a full-health Gengar.
Yeah, I mean, a full health ice type. If you want to try the duel, you deserve a miss on the second cycle.
Why the second cycle? Why does what one "deserves" matter? When you total everything up, it's about a 38% chance for Dragonite to kill a full health Lapras/Articuno with 0 damage (and then potentially sweep). That's very much not "safe" for the Ice user.
And 62% to be rekt, with some chance for a total disaster. Even then, there are other things to try: mostly switches (the ice type and a Thunder Waver, to take advantage of an eventual miss) after the first Wrap connects, and ultimately PP stall I'm gonna let my opponent try that any day of the week.
When did I ever say that dragonite is as good at revenging as tauros? You put dragonite down in B because he needs support. My point was that tauros needs support too, so by the logic of your list tauros should be dropped too because you arbitrarily favour safer pokemon with less offensive threat that are easy to use. Tauros is normally the most 'supported' pokemon on a team. It's the most protected pokemon on a team; it's never asked to take hits or status. All its revenge KOs are set up by its teammates damaging the enemy pokemon, and all it's sweeps are set up by status and damage from it's teammates. I know you think its role is revenge KOing and not sweeping, but it sweeps too. Tauros gets the exact same treatment as SD sweepers and dragonite, yet apparently these pokemon are lower because they need support. Now obviously I don't think you should drop tauros. What would be more sensible in my opinion would be to bump dragonite to at least A. I don't understand how a pokemon who is often favoured over tauros on certain can be two tiers lower when it poses a similar level of threat and requires just as much support.
Good point. That's the reason why Swords Dancers and even more Kangaskhan are so low. They are in conflict with Tauros (mostly for their bad matchups against Zapdos,Slowbro and bulky specialists in general, leaving the team very weak to at least one of those). Tauros is the best revenge killer and it can sweep endgame. It takes that spot (the question becomes: who is good with Tauros?), and everything that requires the same kind of support takes a huge hit. O_O Dnite is rarely favoured over Tauros if you mean usage %. The threat Dnite poses looks similar to Slowbro's, some kind of everything or nothing/ high risk:high reward.
In my reading Tauros isn't S because of how much support it does or doesn't need. Dragonite is listed as B because it meets the criteria for needing support to function properly, but Tauros is listed as S because "S Rank is reserved for Pokemon who are extremely threatening and impact the metagame in a major way. These Pokémon can either fulfill a variety of roles or are superlative in performing one task on a team." NOTHING can switch safely into Tauros. If Tauros comes in, either on a switch or for a revenge kill, something has to eat a powerful attack. You can hope to predict by switching a rock or Gengar into a predicted bslam, but Tauros could use Blizzard or Earthquake in anticipation, and bslam could still paralyze the rocks. If you switch a Cloyster in, you could get bslam paralyzed. Dragonite may be threatening, but there is one Pokemon that can completely safely switch into it: Gengar. Yes, that's only one Pokemon, and it's not a standard Pokemon, but contrast with Tauros where there are 0 Pokemon that can do that, and you've got the literal definition of the word "superlative," so Tauros is S regardless of what flaws it might have (needs support, hates being paralyzed, etc), and Dragonite doesn't match it because it simply does not meet that same definition.
Ah, yeah, sorry I wasn't very clear on that. I think Dragonite should stay where it is. I was just trying to separate out and put to rest the question of "How come Dragonite is only B if Tauros is S?" They're in their respective tiers for their own reasons and don't really need to be discussed in comparisons.
Dnite, Slowbro and Tauros are all somewhat similar in that you don't want to give any of them a free turn and none of them have very reliable counters. Dragonite does have a greater potential for total failure than Tauros (which can still miss Hyper Beams and Blizzards, and somewhat relies on crits and para for threat, so it is comparably unreliable), but we're not arguing it be S. Also, Gar isn't a "totally safe switch" into Blizzard Nite, because it's taking a 31% chance of being frozen thanks to its inability to immediately cripple Nite (25% if it's willing to trade its own life with Explosion).
Dragonite is incredibly threatening, some people even want its main strategy banned because of how threatening it is. Dragonite has way less usage than tauros because of the anti-wrap sentiment. The point is tauros has to compete for a slot with dragonite on a wrap team. In a community where wrap is accepted, dragonite would see way more usage than the fringe-level usage he has now. In a wrap-legal environment (which this is) dragonite impacts the meta heavily. You're almost forced to run a rock or gengar (or something like coyster or lapras) out of fear of an agility sweep, and in an evenish game you'll always want to preserve your counter if their last pokemon is hidden. Tauros doesn't even force people to run bulky waters and ices in non-wrap, who are his best counters. At the end of the day, tauros and dragonite are both very threatening and both reuire support to materialise that threat. So I don't understand why they are three tiers apart. I don't understand how some of you claim that wrap should be banned because it's OP, then have all the wrappers in the third tier or lower. How can something be banworthy if it's a third tier strategy at best?
You're speaking the thruth here, but the fact is... Tauros has to compete for a slot with Dragonite on a wrap team, but Dragonite can't compete a lot with Tauros for a slot in a non-wrap team. The impact on the metagame is mostly on the plays and saving something, because every team has at least one of Gengar, a rock or an ice (or Slowbro). They want the ban because it's luck based and lasts long, and of course, somebody wants the ban because they don't know how to play against it/have terrible builds for a Wrap meta (and then complain RBY is a 6 pokémon metagame). Oh, no. They're not similar at all. And now Dnite has Blizzard. This looks like the same old story of Alakazam beating everybody one on one.
Reflect Zam does beat everything one-on-one (besides Slowbro and Light Screeners), it just runs out of PP after that one. And yeah Dnite can't have both Surf and Blizzard but you can't know which it has ahead of time just like you can't know if your opponent who seems strangely eager for Tauros vs. Cloyster is packing Thunderbolt or not (god, I would have paid gold to see that guy's face when I finally pulled the trigger on the Cloyster he thought was set to sweep). Or whether Snorlax has Surf or not. Or whether Chansey has Counter or not. More options make all of the options better. Dnite doesn't require luck to beat, but it can be beaten with luck. There's a difference, just like switching Starmie into Tauros and not getting haxed is a luck-based answer to it but not the only answer. Let's not get into the Wrap debate here; we're assuming Wrap meta and trying to decide where Nite goes assuming its AgiliWrap is A-O-K.
For clarification purposes: I know that Dre believes Dragonite to be S tier, but @magic9mushroom and @marcoasd as well as others, where would you put Dragonite?
Dre.'s not even saying Dnite should be S tier by the sounds of it, I think he might still be happy if it was A-rank instead, since there are some reasons why it is not quite at the same level as tauros (which is what we're arguing about).. personally, I feel A rank is suitable, as a result of the discussion of this thread. Still, at the top of B rank isn't too shabby. Interested to hear more opinions, I'm less experienced and my opinion is less valuable in these circumstances.
Isa- I think he should be A at least . But the problem is that an S tier isn't necessary, because with wrap legal there is no single pokemon that needs to be on every single team. It's not like non-wrap, where eggy chansey tauros and lax need to be on every non-gimmick team, and therefore are tier above the likes of starmie and zam. With wrap, S and A are pretty much the same, because you could have a perfectly competitive team that has starmie but not tauros. A is kind of like the new S tier in wrap, because you need at least 3-4 A tier pokemon to be competitive. Also Isa can you please answer the question I posed earlier, about how a strategy can be banworthy when none of its users are above the third tier?
S tier mons aren't required to be on your team per any definition. Check other viability rankings (that aren't GSC), S Pokémon exist there as well and they're at times so many that you could fill a team with 6 S tier mons and still have four or five not on your team. (example) Lutra won vs. me in POCL finals without Snorlax, I frequently use teams without Chansey to good success and Crystal described that he doesn't use Exeggutor on many of his teams, and we've all been successful with said teams. Spoiler I'm not as high on banning Wrap as I used to be a few year(s) ago but I'd still like to see it gone - especially AgilityWrapping - because I loathe playing versus them, it's (in most player's opinion) very boring and (I believe) reduces the player base. Nobody likes not being able to attack your opponent for a potential 32 turns. It's also very powerful when you get your lucky rolls in after setup, demolishing even the best non-Gengar counters with about the same probability as OHKO moves. Like magic said though, let's not go further here, this isn't the proper topic.
Low A, below Starmie and Alakazam (Rhydon/Golem/Lapras are arguable I guess but I put it below the first two in my own list). Oh, come off it. And I've topped the ladder without Tauros, so that's all four. Honestly, Tauros is more important with Wrap around; it's a really big check on Bel.
I've won games with poliwrath too, no one is saying that you can't win without S tiers. But if you're playing without S tiers in non-wrap, you have a sub-optimal team for the sake of a gimmick. The exception is possibly chansey, but you need eggy plus 2 other psychics for that to not be inferior to using chansey.
For how people use it, it's where you ranked it the first time: top C. The fact is, I've not played a lot against Dnite used by good players. But in my opinion, it can't be A. If you look closely at A group, you'll see all pieces that can switch easily in and out (no setuppers besides from Zam, and maybe Chansey, and those are defensive setups with reflect). They can overcome bad luck, and are still worth something when paralyzed (once more: Body Slam is the best move of the game, and Thunder Wave is common as well). All Dnite has defensively, is against the rocks: free switch on EQ, and Rock Slide still leaves Dnite the chance to kill with Surf/setup with Agility. Maybe the rocks are a little bit uncomfortable to use (depending on the movesets of the opponent, and of course the build, Zapdos being there etc etc...) and I think their A rank is what is carrying on this discussion, after all. B rank for Dnite, I think Slowbro can do a little bit more, Zapdos depends on the rock being there, Victrebeel is more versatile but has a worse MU against Tauros (and that means a lot), Jynx and Gengar have another role. Also, I see that Lapras is underrated. I mean, nobody knows why Tauros works that well looking at it on sheet, but seeing it in action explains it all. I think it's the same for Lapras: no physical stab, no Recover, no Thunder Wave... it works.
all i'm gonna say is, i've called the top 3 pokemon in rby being normals for like 10 years now. shitty rby2k community disagreeing spewing non-sense about gengar, egg, and zam. god damn amateurs. rekt
You think Tauros, Snorlax and Chansey are all better than Egg? Oh, by the way, the nonsense about Zam being in the top four was mostly on Smogon, not 2k10.
Oh well, the argument about Egg is very interesting, and imo the most importaint point of "modern" RBY. While I consider it a must, Crystal used to have a lot of teams without Egg. The problem about Egg, is that a huge part of its game is about booming on the right piece- and that's kind of gimmicky. It could happen that two Eggs trade, too... but what if one team lacks Egg? How does this team play against the other teams? We could all start talking about the matchups, rock counter, Sleep Powder etc etc...but actually, we don't even know, as 99% of the time we see Egg on both teams, unless one is a Wrap team.
To some extent, this. Of course, the fact that its usage is so sky-high says something. Part of Egg's game is Explosion, but Sleep Powder's the real reason it's ubiquitous. If you have Egg, you pretty much assure sleep. If you don't have Egg, you don't unless you run 2 or even 3 sleepers (Jynx/Gengar and to some extent Victreebel are frail, Gengar/Hypno/Chansey/Lapras/Clefable all have shit accuracy; even leading can't assure sleep because Jynx can get slept by Gar/opposing Jynx and Gar can get slept by opposing Gar or killed by Starmie/Alakazam). Sleeping Pokemon suck. Ergo, Egg is everywhere. Explosion is great too, and Egg's probably the second-best Exploder in OU (Golem >~ Egg > Snorlax > Gengar >~ Cloyster >> garbage), but it's definitely secondary to sleep.
snorlax and tauros without question. chansey's sort of a toss up. how does egg have a better explosion than snorlax? is this solely on the basis that gengar/rhydon/golem are less likely to switch into egg than snorlax? sing on chansey is hugely underrated. i think egg being #1 is a rby2k theology. the biggest issue with that community is really... trying too hard to be different. i'm all for advancing dead metagames, but preaching the [false] merits of gengar/egg being something greater than they are just for the sake of being different is a bit pointless. i've always gotten the impression of "look at us, we're up to date and recreating the meta. egg #1, gengar #5, forget about the outdated smogon tiers, they never knew anything to begin with". maybe they just rub me off the wrong way, after all ww and icy both started off as pretty hardcore ggfan followers, but it always seemed trying to be different for the sake of being different, rather than different for the sake of being truly innovative. don't get me wrong, egg's a great pokemon. it's just a farcry from #1. and #2. i'm ok with it being #3 over chansey. i'm ok with chansey being #3 also. don't really care. but 1-2 is tauros/snorlax. and gengar's total ass.
It depends on the builds. Landing the sleep is never easy unless you can switch Egg into Chansey. Sing on Chansey is good and underrated, but it will be countered by paralyzed stallers (yeah I know, double switches etc), and losing Thunderbolt is a price that many teams don't like. Revealing it, you show that Chansey has not Counter (Counter+Sing would be super gimmicky). In any case, the point is: given that we have to reach 6 pokemon for a team... who are the other 3 if Alakazam, Exeggutor and Gengar suck?