[Skeleton] Zigzagoon

Discussion in 'LC Analyses' started by satyaki roy, Jun 14, 2014.

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  1. satyaki roy

    satyaki roy Eevee Breeder

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    263.png
    General:

    •From the start; never considered to be of any use.
    •No decent stats; except speed
    •Learns belly drum; which makes it a good sweeper when set up.
    •Not many physical moves in move pool.
    •Normal typing has its advantages; both defensively and offensively.
    BD sweeper:

    Zigzagoon@Berry Juice
    Trait:Pickup
    EVs:252 attack/196 speed/60 sp defence
    Adamant Nature(+attack -sp attack)
    -Belly drum
    -Extreme speed
    -Thief
    -Seed Bomb

    Belly drum maximizes its attack to raise them just enough to sweep. Extreme speed gets STAB and with +2 priority; it does not have to bother about speed most of the time. Berry juice brings HP back to full; enabling it to endure a hit most of the time. Thief allows it to take on Ghost and Steel types(though steel types still survive mostly) and also gather an useful item in the process. As many LC Pokémon hold Berry juice; it enables it to recover HP multiple times. Also eviolite; another common item; boosts its defences. Seed bomb helps take on rock types.

    Other options:
    What zigzagoon badly needed was a ground move to counter rock and steel; but even its strongest ground move; dig; has its disadvantages; it takes 2 turns to hit; giving opponent chance to switch. It could replace seed bomb; but it is not preferred. Even a fighting move would have helped it immensely; but rock smash; at 40 damage; doesn't look appealing; so the above move set is its best bet.
    Checks and counters:
    Zigzagoon has frail defences; hence any bulky Pokémon; with defences boosted by evoilite; can revenge kill. Some Pokémon to look out for:
    •Fast Pokémon or prankster Pokémon with taunt: If zigzagoon does not get to set up; it could face a lot of problems; as its attack stats otherwise is pitiful.
    • Steel types/sturdy: steel types; being generally bulky; survive zigzagoons hits. Pawniard is one Pokémon to resist all its attacks. Also; Pokémon with sturdy like Tirtouga survives its hits at full HP. All these Pokémon can kill it due to reasons mentioned in the above point.
     
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2014
  2. Ortheore

    Ortheore One beautiful monster

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    Lots of things to fix and this is coming from someone who hasn't played LC in ages and has pretty much no experience with Zig.

    Firstly, Oran berry is totally outclassed by Berry Juice (unless you're using Phantump or something) and consequently is practically never seen in LC, so you'll want to change all mentions of Oran to BJ. Also max/max is a terrible spread- it wastes a lot of EVs. 196/196 gives you the same atk and spe while giving you a few more EVs to invest in bulk (not that it'll ever be remotely bulky, but it can only help). Tbh these 2 points made me question whether you had any substantial experience in LC.

    Thief doesn't do anything for Steel types (neutral thief is actually just as powerful as STAB Espeed).

    In your OO section you spend a lot of time lamenting that it doesn't get the coverage it needs instead of actually discussing what else it does (even if there isn't a whole load it's capable of)

    This really needs a synergy section imo, because it'll take a ton of support to set Zig up and actually put it in a position where it isn't immediately cockblocked by something. I'm thinking Dual screens/Memento, that kind of thing.

    C&C is really bare, but I guess you could get away with making blanket statements like heaps of things check it. Definitely need to mention that the best way to handle it is to not let it set up, whether by smashing it or by crippling it with status. Taunt is a really overshadowed way of handling it imo- it does fine, but usually you can just as easily screw it over in a more permanent way (as I just mentioned). Literally anything that can take a boosted Espeed that isn't also threatened by its coverage is at least a check (whether by not being weak to its coverage or by simply outspeeding), if not a counter. Definitely need to mention fast ghost types (Main one obviously being Missy). Not sure why Sturdy warrants a mention though, it's not reliable or efficient, there are many better options.

    Probably someone who actually knows more about this will expand upon what I've said
     
  3. satyaki roy

    satyaki roy Eevee Breeder

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    Thanks for those tips though some are mentioned here...I'll make changes ASAP
    To be honest until few days before I didn't know how to see stats while in a battle and don't have EVs calculator....though I have used zig a lot
     
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2014
  4. Chlorine Trifluoride

    Chlorine Trifluoride You were saying?

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    lots of changes...

    first you never mention espeed in general. Seeing as thats its main niche it would help to have it there.

    onto evs: DON'T RUN MAX SPEED. unless you're using subsalac zig needs the bulk. espeed covers that issue anyway. atm i dont have a spread, but itd be like max att/ enough bulk to take missys dazzling gleam at half health. then work the remainder into other stats.

    the set itself is almost fine. the problem is the last slot. protect should get first slash because of the numerous fake out pokes. after that iron tail for spritzee/rocks (lileep being a primary), seed bomb for obvious reasons andd if someone feels it nessecary, rock smash for pawniard. the ability should also be changed to pickup since gluttony is useless. remove the jolly slash; it needs as much power as possible. remove oran berry cuz berry juice.

    as for OO mention gunk shot for sritzee if iron tail is aturn off. also mention the sub/bd/espeed/thief set with gluttony and salac

    for CC say its easy to check pre setup but post only resists and REALLY bulky pokes will stomach an espeed. burns also suck

    for support: trappers, pursuiters, encore, memento, knock off and screen support all help. fighter also pair well to remve steels/rocks
     
  5. satyaki roy

    satyaki roy Eevee Breeder

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    I'll make changes when free
     
  6. trc

    trc Active Member

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    I' put Pickup as the main ability to get used Berry Juices which is incredibly clutch, whereas Gluttony's only uses are on Belly Drum + Salac Berry sets which need an alternate EV spread that actually invests in Speed.
     
  7. satyaki roy

    satyaki roy Eevee Breeder

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    OK I'll change that...but isn't that pickpocket you are talking about? Pickup has no use in battle...I guess
     
  8. trc

    trc Active Member

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    Nah, Pickup does have use in battle, don't worry.
     
  9. satyaki roy

    satyaki roy Eevee Breeder

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    Well; that's nice; I'll make the changes
     
  10. Epikhairz

    Epikhairz Delta Stream

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    lol 252 EVs in LC. i dont even play LC and to this day im still not sure how to efficiently EV Pokemon in LC, but im pretty sure that EV spread is inefficient and not right

    and im sorry but i cant offer an alternate spread because i have no idea how to play LC
     
  11. satyaki roy

    satyaki roy Eevee Breeder

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    Damn...I mentioned before why I didn't know that part before...I'll change it when I get sufficient time...all the suggested changes
     
  12. Dr. Doom

    Dr. Doom Long time hater of stall

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    Please space the paragraphs out - it makes it much more manageable on the eyes.
     
  13. satyaki roy

    satyaki roy Eevee Breeder

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  14. Yagura

    Yagura

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    Yeah this, please make the thread looking normal not like some poetry stuff. I'll say what I think then because to be honest now I can't read a thing and even when I spot something it's totally wrong, so making the paragraphs spaced will make it easier.
     
  15. Pangaea

    Pangaea resto en peaco

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    The format of this looks very sloppy and difficult to read. I suggest 1) spacing out your paragraphs and 2) center your words. This is what your paragraphs look like right now:

    Molly went to
    the store and
    bought some carrots
    for her rabbit,
    Charles.

    Change it to:

    Molly went to the store and bought some carrots for her rabbit, Charles.
    It makes it much easier to read in my opinion and it is easier for the QC to review it. While you do that, you might want to space out your different topics and paragraphs and not make everything so scrunched up.

    You should include some partners that work well with Zigzagoon. Also you should include different EV spreads and be more specific with the types of Pokemon that counter Zigzagoon. How many EVs should Pawniard run to survive about three hits from Zigzagoon? These are all important things. How do different items from opponents affect Zigzagoon? What hits can he take? How does he help out his team? You should include these in your analysis.
     
  16. satyaki roy

    satyaki roy Eevee Breeder

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    Oh sorry I'll do them today
     
  17. Weavile

    Weavile Phoenix

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    So that didn't happen before I got here so I fixed the formatting so I could actually read it. I also changed the item and ability to Berry Juice and Pickup respectively since they were suggested and promised changes.

    So. This is going to be in an order that doesn't really make sense.
    - In C&C I think you've got the right idea by mentioning Sturdy, however it is likely wise to mention that it is a very unreliable and inefficient way of dealing with Zigzagoon, and should be a last resort only.
    - Missy needs to be in C&C
    - Taunt isn't as useful in dealing with Ziggy as you make it out to be, you need the taunter in when Ziggy comes in, and most Taunt users can deal enough damage to Ziggy to make it not worth it.
    - Mention Sub/Salac in Other Options. I don't use Zigzag really so I can't give you a set, but I'm sure someone experienced with Ziggy will help with that
    - Mention that, while its support and special move-pools are enviable, they are also made near redundant by its garbage stats. (That could go in OO or General I guess)
    - Thief is literally pointless, Protect goes in that slot.
    - I would guess English isn't your first language, but this would need to be almost completely re-written due to extreme grammar issues.
     
  18. satyaki roy

    satyaki roy Eevee Breeder

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    I'm so sorry all I can do is come online for few minutes... I'll try to change as fast as I can
     
  19. Chlorine Trifluoride

    Chlorine Trifluoride You were saying?

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    >thief is useless. how else is ziggy gonna kill ghosts?
     
  20. satyaki roy

    satyaki roy Eevee Breeder

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    I never said thief is useless
     
  21. Chlorine Trifluoride

    Chlorine Trifluoride You were saying?

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    Wasn't directed at you~
     
  22. satyaki roy

    satyaki roy Eevee Breeder

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    Oh I see
     
  23. trc

    trc Active Member

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    Thief is supremely important to beat non-HP Fighting Misdreavus one on one as well as obtain its Berry Juice.
     
  24. satyaki roy

    satyaki roy Eevee Breeder

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    Yes agree absolutely...
     
  25. Weavile

    Weavile Phoenix

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    Well, if you're running rocks or their Ghost isn't in super mint condition;
    +6 196+ Atk Zigzagoon Seed Bomb vs. 36 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Misdreavus: 17-20 (73.9 - 86.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    Merit does exist to being able to kill Missy in one swipe with no prior damage and it did slip my mind when I posted, however I would still argue that Zigzag is a late-game sweeper, and if you're trying to sweep your opponent with it when one of its main checks is at 100% health still, you're using it wrong. If for whatever reason your team lacks a reliable method of eliminating Missy, then Thief can help, but you might get W-o-W'd or if it's Specs or Scarf you might end up Tricked, or Tbolted for 70-85% damage if it's specs even if you are running Thief. While protect is a near 100% stop to Fake Out users, except like, Feint Meowth

    So, a compromise, Protect/Thief. Naturally I would argue for Protect as the first slash, but it's not so important.
     
  26. satyaki roy

    satyaki roy Eevee Breeder

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    Then it will become impossible to deal with phantump.
     
  27. Weavile

    Weavile Phoenix

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    Honedge is a more pressing issue than Phantump as it's much more common. But even so those are Pokémon that you shouldn't be trying to kill with Zigzag.
    +6 196+ Atk Zigzagoon Thief vs. 0 HP / 36 Def Eviolite Honedge: 18-22 (85.7 - 104.7%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
    +6 196+ Atk Zigzagoon Thief vs. 0 HP / 36 Def Eviolite Honedge: 18-22 (85.7 - 104.7%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
    196+ Atk Honedge Sacred Sword vs. 0 HP / 108 Def Zigzagoon: 20-24 (100 - 120%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    Also
    +6 196+ Atk Zigzagoon Seed Bomb vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Phantump: 10-12 (41.6 - 50%) -- 80.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    Phantump is never max/max+ defense but even if it is, 80% to OHKO after Rocks does not look good and at a literally impossibly favorable scenario for Phantump;
    116 Atk Phantump Horn Leech vs. 0 HP / 108 Def Zigzagoon: 10-13 (50 - 65%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    It can do that much back, and it's slower.
     
  28. satyaki roy

    satyaki roy Eevee Breeder

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    Well; I still feel thief is the best choice
     
  29. Yagura

    Yagura

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    He's not saying that you should remove Thief from the set, he meant that you should slash Protect in front of it.
     
  30. fitzy

    fitzy Heart of the cards Forum Moderator Forum Moderator

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    I've used zigzag a lot and this is the only viable set really


    Zigzagoon @ Berry Juice
    Ability: Pickup
    Level: 5
    EVs: 136 HP / 200 Atk / 116 Def / 28 SDef / 28 Spd
    Adamant Nature
    - Belly Drum
    - Extreme Speed
    - Thief
    - Protect

    Don't even bother with seed bomb, at +6 thief does what it does.
     
  31. satyaki roy

    satyaki roy Eevee Breeder

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    Well let's slash it with seed bomb or thief?
     
  32. Chlorine Trifluoride

    Chlorine Trifluoride You were saying?

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    Thief IMO is necessary so probs seed bomb
     
  33. satyaki roy

    satyaki roy Eevee Breeder

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  34. Eunoia

    Eunoia I think I'm Big Meech...

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    literally no pokemon in LC Use oran berry now that berry juice is a thing, try to edit out any mentions of it in this writeup
     
  35. satyaki roy

    satyaki roy Eevee Breeder

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  36. Yagura

    Yagura

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    satyaki roy got forum banned so I supposed this should be locked.

    @pokemonnerd hi again
     
  37. pokemonnerd

    pokemonnerd Only uso listens to pnerd. Devo too. Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    Been pretty busy lately, but if anyone wants to pick this up just copy what this guy has and run with it.

    Thanks @Yagura
     
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