Cheating is possible in Trivia

Discussion in 'Simulator Suggestions' started by Suigetsu, Jun 7, 2014.

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  1. Suigetsu

    Suigetsu Active Member

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    /pokemon
    /move
    /item

    These commands all you to cheat in trivia, which is poor sportsmanship. Examples:

    There are 4 questions asking what Bulbasaur, Genesect, Pikachu and Arceus' dex number are: don't know it? Use /pokemon [specified pokemon] and check, then answer. These sort of questions take 2 seconds to read, then the commands and typing in a number is very possible in 8 seconds.

    Or maybe, what move increases both special attack and attack: you're split between two, (meditate and work up): use /move meditate, read that meditate doesn't fit the definition in the question and answer work up.

    Or maybe a question like "What is the percentage that Focus Band will hang on"? You can use /item focus band and see its 10%.

    I know only a small amount of questions can be answered abusing these, but people get awarded points they shouldn't get, and it's unfair.

    EDIT: very minor example is "What bot shows your ranking?", you can use /ranking and easily see.
     
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2014
  2. Crystal Moogle

    Crystal Moogle Ayaya~ Administrator Administrator

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    I think most questions like this were removed. I guess some got left behind.
    I don't know if the sTAs (@Cirno @Windblown) want them removed though.
     
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2014
  3. Suigetsu

    Suigetsu Active Member

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    Well, I do recall a while ago "What is x's base y stat?" Questions, x being a pokemon, y being a stat.

    Don't see them anymore, so they're removed, but these commands are still abusable for the leftover q's, bastet found those 4 dex ones with a quick search, so they dont seem to be remnants.

    EDIT: Yet another question: "Name any of Politoed's abilities other than Drizzle."
    EDIT2: Yet ANOTHER: "What type is move x?"

    This is getting ridiculous.

    Category: POKÉMON ONLINE
    What is the bot that appears when you flip a coin?



    (08:51:19) ±Metagross: Your answer was submitted: meowth

    (08:51:23) ±Metagross: Time's up! Incorrect answers: Not Dratini
    (08:51:23) ±Metagross: Answered correctly: Suigetsu Hōzuki, [Clutch]Gogeta
    (08:51:23) ±Metagross: The correct answer was: Meowth
    (08:51:23) ±Metagross: Points awarded for this question: 2
    (08:51:23) ±Metagross: Leaderboard: Suigetsu Hōzuki (8), [Clutch]Gogeta (2), CutiePatootie (0)
    (08:51:23) ±Metagross: Please wait 19 seconds until the next question!
    (08:51:24) [Clutch]Gogeta: lmfao
    (08:51:32) [Clutch]Gogeta: (13:21:10) ±Meowth: You flipped a coin. It's Tails!
    (08:51:32) [Clutch]Gogeta: (13:21:13) ±Metagross: Your answer was submitted: meowth
     
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2014
  4. TheUnknownOne

    TheUnknownOne Member

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    If anyone can do it, how is it cheating?
     
  5. Suigetsu

    Suigetsu Active Member

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    A lot of users are not aware or these commands or do not want to use them giving the cheaters an advantage.

    verb
    cheating
    1. act dishonestly or unfairly in order to gain an advantage.

    It's also gaining points you wouldn't have got without cheating, which defeats the point of trivia.
     
  6. TheUnknownOne

    TheUnknownOne Member

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    My point is, how is it unfair what they are doing? Anyone has access to it. These commands are not auth-only.

    According to that logic using any kind of client script to look up any kind of answer is cheating. Anyone can use a client script, it's your choice whether you want to do it or not. Can you ban client scripts? No.

    Of course these are server commands, but either way they are easily implemented in some kind of client script. The trivia rules do not mention usage of client additions or modifications. "Cheating" is incredibly vague. The only way you could really cheat is if you would somehow either have a true advantage over someone (commands only available to you, provided by the server), or if you would find an exploit in the Trivia script.

    Only the questions can be removed, nothing can be done about the commands.
     
  7. Crystal Moogle

    Crystal Moogle Ayaya~ Administrator Administrator

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    "Anyone can do it so it's not cheating"
    Are you serious right now? Like are you thinking when you are typing these words? Because there's a hell of a lot of organisations that would very much like to disagree with you.
    And using client scripts to look up answers is very much cheating, wtf kind of terrible logic are you using there? Not everyone can make a script and if someone did make one, not everyone would have access to it either.
     
  8. Weavile

    Weavile Phoenix

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    TUO what are you chatting?
    Is it cheating to use any kind of client script to look up an answer? Yes of course it is, to imply otherwise is beyond ummm "ignorant"
    Just because we can't reliably test for it at the moment doesn't mean it's not cheating. We can't "reliably" test for boosters who aren't dumb and get like 1900 points in dead tiers, doesn't mean it's not cheating. That is ridiculous "logic".
    Cheating is not nearly as vague as you imply it's simply adaptive to whatever competition it's applied to, I am almost certain we as a PO or Trivia community could come up with a definition fairly quickly that we almost all agree on.
     
  9. TheUnknownOne

    TheUnknownOne Member

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    Instead of saying mean personal things, let's quote Wikipedia (Article "Cheating"):

    "Cheating is the getting of reward for ability by dishonest means or finding an easy way out of an unpleasant situation. It is generally used for the breaking of rules to gain unfair advantage in a competitive situation."
    Usage of any scripts is not unfair - anyone has the capability to do so, as well as it officially being endorsed by being implemented into PO core. This isn't some kind of CoD no scoping aimbot.

    ...Video games

    "In video games, cheating can take the form of secret access codes in single-player games (such as the Konami code) which unlock a bonus for the player when entered, and add-ons or exploits which give players an unfair advantage in online multiplayer games."
    Once again not unfair, anyone has access to this, it's in PO core. To cheat, you'd have to find some kind of exploit in the Trivia script or perhaps PO core.

    "Another form of video game cheating is when a player does things unforeseen by the programmers to permit changes to the way enemies are encountered (or objectives met). This could be through means of a "Hack" where altered game files are substituted for the normal files, or image graphics changed to permit greater visibility of the targets, etc."

    No. PO scripts are, once again, part of PO core. You'd have to remove all native message reading and sending functionality for this to be cheating.

    "Another type of cheat would be an exploit cheat where an advantage is gained through an unintended game exploit, such as skipping a weapon reload timer by quickly switching weapons back and forth without actually reloading the weapons. Generally speaking, there is often some concern that this is not truly cheating, as it is the fault of the programmers that such an exploit exists in the first place. However, technically, as with live sports, it is cheating if the player is not playing the game in a formally approved manner, breaking unwritten rules. In some cases, this behavior is directly prohibited by the Terms of Service of the game."

    Again, not an exploit.

    Additionally, from the Wikipedia article "Cheating in online games":
    "Cheating in online games is an activity that modifies the game experience to give one player an advantage over others."

    You do not gain an advantage over anyone by using scripting functionality included in a program's bundle.


    As an example, there's actually a debate going on in Team Fortress 2 about this kind of stuff, where there is indeed native scripting. Some people consider it to be cheating, however the creator of the game (Valve) does not, as it's available to anyone (you just have to know how to do it). That's of course a lot more limited but the point stays.
    From their wiki: "Scripting is the use of configuration files (.cfg) to create new keybinds and aliases automating complex behaviors and console command sequences. Unlike hacking, scripting is built into Team Fortress 2 and is not banned by VAC (Valve Anti-Cheat). Uses of scripting vary from simply binding a key to a command to self-referential loops and nested aliases that redefine one another. Any functionality that can be created with scripting can also be accomplished without it, but scripting allows these functionalities to be used in the heat of battle."

    And again, the trivia rules state nothing about the usage of bots or scripts. Now I do realize I've gone a bit off-topic since this is mainly focused on client scripts, however the original point is still clear: nothing can be done about the commands, you will have to tackle the questions (and possibly the rules).
     
  10. Manish00333

    Manish00333 studyin'

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    I agree, some answers can easily be obtained by using commands. A few answers in the PO category can be obtained by using /auth, /has, /tas or similar commands. This could be resolved by only allowing commands essential to Trivia in #Trivia. The essential commands being: start, join, unjoin, tas/tadmins, submitq, lb and flashme. However, very few answers can be obtained by using commands.
     
  11. Windblown

    Windblown sable knight

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    My concern is that you could just use the command in another channel - I tried it out myself and anyone with a decent Internet connection can get something like Genesect's dex number in another channel, change tabs and answer, so I don't think disabling the commands in Trivia would still make it fair because fast typers will still be able to get around the questions to an extent.

    While I'd agree on all your other example listed, this one seems to be more okay because you already have an idea of what the answer is, not to mention that it probably takes longer than 10 seconds to type in /move meditate, read the whole description, and sort out accordingly. Not saying it's not helpful, but this particular instance probably isn't cheating.

    However you want to judge these tactics (being cheating or not), I'm pretty sure a lot of people would agree that it's at the very least uncompetitive and against the Trivia mindset, so the best way to approach it would be to alter the questions or delete them accordingly (or something like disabling /pokemon, /move, etc, when you're in a Trivia game?) If that is the case, it'll take time to deal with all the questions.
     
  12. Suigetsu

    Suigetsu Active Member

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    Take into consideration a lot of people dont want nor know about the commands, which is giving someone an advantage or one who does not know: and bringing down the people who actually knew by reducing points awarded.

    Also, if you're so picky about this: I'm #1 on the Trivia Leaderboard: would it be fair if I had abused commands other users didn't know about or use to get there? Think about that.
     
  13. MidwayMarshall

    MidwayMarshall woof Forum Moderator Developer Forum Moderator Developer

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    In my opinion:
    Yes TheUnkownOne, scripts are open to everyone that is true. But scripting doesn't just end at the script on PO. I have made many scripts that communicated with outside applications.

    Theoretical Script/Program combo:
    Script:
    Copies the answer saves it to a file. Activates a trigger on an hybrid C/F# program (F# is very mathematical and has great complex pattern solving functions).
    Program:
    It uses a custom search engine to look up the answer on the internet. Find a pattern within these results (usually the answer) displays a list of possible results all within seconds and user clicks the one he/she thinks is correct and it types into PO trivia channel the answer from them.(you could try to automate it completely but it would give it away if you never respond to other people).
    // All that is required for the user to do is click an option in a ListBox. No hard thinking from the user. It wouldn't be perfect but it would be pretty damn good at its job.
    It might not get questions like "what is a male cow:answer bull" because that has no correct answer.
    http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/u...-if-you-don-t-want-to-specify-an-animal-s-sex <- source.
    If that isn't giving an advantage then I don't even know anymore.

    You also talk about online cheating in scripting. And you talk about Valve but Valve isn't the only online game company in the world.
    Counter Example:
    I was a very avid player of World of Tanks in the past and got quite good at it with the help of scripts. Wargamming gave so much power in the scripts and XML configurations to change the game. But Wargamming actually briefly check your code to make sure it isn't giving you an unfair advantage (like removing the models for trees, bushes, houses etc.) And there were plenty of other functions you could try to modify your game with that would get you banned. So Wargamming allowed native modification but made a distinction on when it was unfair.
     
  14. Weavile

    Weavile Phoenix

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    Let's quote a Wikipedia article that actually states that the term "cheating" is adaptive to the competition to which it is applied.
    "Getting reward for ability by dishonest means or finding an easy way out of an unpleasant situation. It is generally used for the breaking of rules to gain unfair advantage in a competitive situation"
    All of the bolded terms above are subjective or flexible elements of your provided definition. All of these terms have exact meanings that change depending on the competition. Especially "rules", as I said, if Trivia community agrees that scripts are against the rules. They are in-fact cheating, that is not a debatable point, which you appear to want to make it.

    As for if they (scripts) should be against the rules or not.

    Well what's the main point of Trivia? It's to test your knowledge for the subject at hand, there's a reason when we had a webpage with every question and answer on it, it was a bannable offense to leak it from TrivRev'. The idea is to test your knowledge that YOU possess, not to Ctrl+F something off of a webpage. Using that Ctrl+F or similar bot function would be dishonest to the point of Trivia.

    OK how about the "unfair advantage" part. Well, does every newcomer to the Trivia channel have a trivia client script? No
    believe it or not, not everyone has the ability to code themselves a cheatbot for Trivia! Shock not everyone's even heard of the one(s) that already exist! Compare that to anabolic steroids that every top-level athlete knows about and has easy access to, they're still cheating!
    So yes it provides an unfair advantage over those that do not have them.

    Suggesting that they are "endorsed" by PO being supportive of client scripts is just incorrect. A guy who makes kitchen knives for a living doesn't automatically endorse the use of that knife to stab someone for example, if you want an online example, You have the ability to post porn links in PO's chat because links are allowed, that doesn't mean the posting of porn links is endorsed by PO. Client scripts were not integrated into PO's core with the intention of letting you cheat in Trivia. If you refer to the /pokemon,move, etc. commands then you'd have a point, if only an effort wasn't already made to remove all questions to which they are applicable.
     
  15. Jalmont

    Jalmont nothere

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    I think the main point to take away is that this whilst these scripts aren't necessarily "cheating" per say, they violate the entire point of trivia which is to test your knowledge of random facts, not "who can come up with shortcuts to get the answer the best."

    It seems like such a minor enough thing that it would probably just be better to avoid/remove questions that can be found using this method.
     
  16. Ascarotte

    Ascarotte Well-Known Member Forum Moderator Channel Leader Forum Moderator Channel Leader

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    I personally don't think any of these remaining questions are issues, apart from maybe some of the 'what type is X' questions. It's enough that we removed all the what is X's base stat questions. I think it's damaging to the variety of Pokemon trivia if every single question that can feasibly be looked up using PO commands has to be removed. For questions for which answers can be found using /tas and so on, I think this is actually fair play just because they're PO questions where they are supposed to be the methods whereby you find out that information.

    I would just say it's better to just try and trust people to play fairly. There's no real reward for cheating, less so than getting X ranking. Blocking the command in trivia may not make it that much harder to cheat, but at least it will state that we are not amused by this behaviour. Also, just punish any smart alecks who like to repeatedly state that they're cheating or that everyone should cheat because it's so easy.

    On another note, a speed-based scoring mode would make cheating less 'profitable'.
     
  17. Suigetsu

    Suigetsu Active Member

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    The speed based scoring mode was removed a while back, remember? It was deemed unfair to those who couldn't type fast fast enough or had a bad connection, meaning some people had an advantage that wasn't really related to the point of the game.

    The one problem I see with actually removing these questions is that it's taking away from the whole thing, like the PO category is pretty small already and removing the "Name an sTA" etc questions wouldn't do much good.

    I agree that disabling these commands for the channel will imply that it is frowned upon and make it harder to cheat, so I'm in favour of that method.
    (Only problem is it wouldn't be wise to disable /tas)
     
  18. Cirno

    Cirno Romantic

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    We're not going to disable the commands in Trivia, after asking someone if they could script it, in the end the idea was turned down. So, we're going to have to go through the effort of removing the violating questions, which may take some time depending on how lazy we are many questions there are.

    If after a few days some of the said questions remain and appear, feel free to contact a TA on server to remove it. For reference, this is just about questions in the Pokemon category that can be easily answered through /move etc., such as "What type is Xerneas?". We'll discuss the fate of Pokemon Online questions that can be answered through /triviaadmins and the like.

    So, I think that's all. If anything else was brought up in this topic that I need to address, feel free to point it out.
     
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