[ORAS] ORAS UU Viability Ranking Thread

Discussion in 'Past Gens Discussion' started by Epikhairz, May 24, 2014.

  1. Epikhairz

    Epikhairz Delta Stream

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    [​IMG]ORAS UU Viability Ranking Thread[​IMG]
    Welcome, one and all, to the official ORAS UU Viability Ranking Thread! As a community, we will determine a Pokemon's viability in the ORAS UU tier by "ranks". Users are encouraged to post stating where a Pokemon should be ranked, with a short explanation why. Posts like "I think X Pokemon should be in Y tier" will not be tolerated. Additionally, some things in the list have been intentionally left up for debate for you as a community to discuss, so feel free to do so!

    This is only a preliminary list as of right now, and will be continually worked on until ORAS UU reaches an end.

    Finally, I would like to give thanks to users @Windblown , @Daybreak , @Finchinator , @Xdevo , and @Selena Gomez for helping me out with drafting this list, as well as @Proof , @Insane Soul , and @somerandomguy for helping with the subdivision of the ranks (if I missed anyone please let me know).

    Without further ado, here's the list!

    -----------------------------------------------------------

    S Rank:
    S Rank is reserved for Pokemon who are extremely threatening and impact the metagame in a major way. These Pokemon can either fulfill a variety of roles or are superlative in performing one task on a team.


    [​IMG]Aerodactyl (Mega)[​IMG]Salamence[​IMG]Victini
    A Rank:
    A Rank Pokemon are the bread-and-butter of the tier, usually filling most roles in a team in the most efficient way the tier can offer. They will easily fit into a team and often define the style of play. They are not as overwhelming a presence as S Rank Pokemon but will almost always perform well.

    A+
    [​IMG]Cobalion[​IMG]Entei[​IMG] Feraligatr[​IMG]Florges
    [​IMG] Hydreigon[​IMG]Suicune[​IMG] Swampert (Mega)
    A
    [​IMG]Ampharos (Mega)[​IMG] Beedrill (Mega)[​IMG]Chandelure
    [​IMG]Doublade[​IMG]Hippowdon[​IMG] Infernape
    [​IMG]Krookodile[​IMG]Nidoqueen[​IMG]Porygon2[​IMG]Whimsicott
    A-
    [​IMG]Abomasnow (Mega)[​IMG]Azelf[​IMG]Blastoise (Mega)[​IMG]Empoleon
    [​IMG]Kyurem[​IMG]Lucario[​IMG]Machamp
    [​IMG]Mienshao[​IMG]Raikou[​IMG] Sharpedro (Mega)[​IMG]Shaymin
    [​IMG]Slowking[​IMG]Snorlax[​IMG] Umbreon[​IMG]Tentacruel
    B Rank:
    B Rank Pokemon are less easily able to slot into a team as A Rank Pokemon, but are still able to fill a role well and be a presence in the right team. Pokemon which may be slightly outperformed by higher ranks but nonetheless still fit well, and Pokemon which have a threatening but small niche may be in this rank.

    B+
    [​IMG]Aggron (Mega)[​IMG]Celebi[​IMG]Chesnaught[​IMG]Crobat[​IMG]Cresselia
    [​IMG]Darmanitan[​IMG]Forretress[​IMG]Gligar[​IMG]Haxorus[​IMG]Heliolisk
    [​IMG]Hoopa[​IMG]Houndoom (Mega)[​IMG]Jellicent[​IMG]Nidoking[​IMG]Rhyperior
    [​IMG]Roserade[​IMG] Rotom-M[​IMG]Slurpuff[​IMG]Swampert[​IMG]Tangrowth
    [​IMG]Tornadus-I[​IMG]Toxicroak[​IMG] Tyrantrum
    B
    [​IMG]Absol (Mega)[​IMG]Alomomola[​IMG]Aromatisse[​IMG] Blissey[​IMG]Cloyster
    [​IMG] Donphan[​IMG] Dragalge[​IMG]Escavalier[​IMG]Froslass[​IMG]Goodra
    [​IMG]Honchkrow[​IMG]Kingdra[​IMG]Klefki[​IMG]Magneton[​IMG]Mandibuzz
    [​IMG]Meloetta[​IMG]Noivern[​IMG]Rotom-H[​IMG] Sceptile (Mega)[​IMG]Sharpedo
    [​IMG] Seismitoad[​IMG]Shuckle[​IMG]Stoutland[​IMG]Vaporeon[​IMG]Venomoth[​IMG]Yanmega
    B-
    [​IMG]Arcanine[​IMG]Bronzong[​IMG]Galvantula[​IMG]Espeon[​IMG]Moltres
    [​IMG]Quagsire[​IMG]Qwilfish[​IMG] Steelix (Mega)
    C Rank:
    C Rank Pokemon have notable niches in the metagame, but usually require significant support. These Pokemon face competition for their roles from the higher ranked Pokemon, but can find still find use.

    C+
    [​IMG]Cinccino[​IMG]Flygon[​IMG]Gastrodon
    [​IMG]Milotic[​IMG]Scrafty[​IMG]Spiritomb[​IMG]Virizion
    C
    [​IMG]Ambipom[​IMG]Banette (Mega)[​IMG]Blastoise[​IMG]Cofagrigus[​IMG]Ditto
    [​IMG]Druddigon[​IMG]Glalie (Mega)[​IMG]Gorebyss[​IMG]Hitmontop
    [​IMG]Kabutops[​IMG]Mismagius[​IMG]Omastar[​IMG]Poliwrath[​IMG]Porygon-Z
    [​IMG]Sceptile[​IMG] Smeargle[​IMG]Xatu[​IMG]Zoroark
    {tr}

    C-
    [​IMG] Camerupt (Mega)[​IMG]Lanturn[​IMG]Trevenant[​IMG]Shedinja[​IMG]Vivillion
    Daybreak Rank:
    D Rank Pokemon either have an extremely small niche in the tier, or are generally outclassed by higher-ranked Pokemon in a majority of circumstances.

    [​IMG]Abomasnow[​IMG] Audino (Mega)[​IMG]Cacturne[​IMG]Dusclops
    [​IMG]Ferroseed[​IMG]Houndoom[​IMG]Weezing
    Epikhairz Rank:
    E Rank Pokemon should never be used on any (serious) team in the tier; no exceptions. If it has even a trace of viability, it'll most likely be D Rank material.

    [​IMG]Malamar[​IMG] Mawile
    FROGHHHHHHHHHHHY RANK:
    Truly terrible. Never use. GHHHHHHHHHHHHH

    [​IMG]Leavanny
    Unranked
    New additions to the metagame that have not had sufficient discussion to be placed in a rank.{/tr}
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 21, 2016
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  2. Finchinator

    Finchinator IT’S FINK DUMBASS

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    I guess since I helped out on this, I'll try and actively partake in this thread although I'm relatively washed-up in current UU. The following changes I believe should either occur, be considered, or be discussed thoroughly.

    Mew: S ---> A
    Crobat: B ---> A
    Gligar: C ---> B

    Mew is a versatile pokemon in terms of movepool and potential sets, but anyone who plays the tier often can tell you than nine out of ten sets are bulky, supportive variants. For a pokemon with a movepool that surpasses every pokemon bar Smeargle in quantity, it's ironically restricted to the following moves on practically every set: Defog, Will-O-Wisp, Softboiled/Roost, Stealth Rock, Psyshock/Psychic, Seismic Toss, Taunt, and a few rarely seen utility or damaging moves like Heal Bell, Knock Off, Thunder Wave, and Foul Play. Furthermore, while it may seem like it on paper, Mew doesn't automatically fit into S due to the "These Pokemon can fulfill a variety of roles" clause in the description of S Rank. Speaking of fulfilling the requirements for an S Rank pokemon, Mew isn't exactly extraordinary at being a support pokemon either (superlative in performing one task on a team) - sure, it has above average bulk and the ability to support in a unique fashion (albeit, not too unique), but it isn't standing-out that much, nor is it the only common wall or supporter. Finally, Mew's mono-psychic typing is great for the fighting resist, but the weakness to Dark, usually forcing it to negate leftovers for Colbur Berry, is detrimental and other weaknesses to ghost and bug don't help. With all of this being said, Mew should go from S to (High) A Rank.

    Crobat
    was a fine pokemon in BW UU, but has improved with the generational shift. Although it didn't gain much bar Infilitrator in terms of direct benefits, it gained a resistance to the Fairy typing and the resistance to fighting became even more important than it was last generation. Now, CB Crobat can flourish with the speed, typing, and boosted power while Stallbreaker Crobat can also Defog and get in safely in more situations, although it does take some good execution to maneuver. With this being said, the Rocks weakness is a fair flaw, but I wouldn't classify it as a major flaw, which is generally what categorizes B Rank pokemon, considering it has the ability to defog away these hazards, Roost, etc. I do acknowledge that the Bat isn't that amazing as it can be walled and needs support to deal with what it struggles against, but I feel that the overall niche and lack of substantial flaws is enough to make Crobat go from B to (Low) A Rank.

    Gligar
    is and always will be a fine physical tank with recovery and means of dealing with entry hazards (rocks and defog). The problem is that it has key weaknesses to types like Ice and Water while being vulnerable to Knock Off, common special attacks, and set-up sweepers as it doesn't have too great offensive presence, especially considering that it now runs Defog over U-turn commonly. All in all, this does, admittedly, amount to a major flaw, but with the ability to wall pokemon like Terrakion, Ice Punchless Mega Medicham, Victini, Jirachi, Heracross, ScarfMence, Staraptor, Lucario, Metagross, Darmanitan, Rhyperior, Doublade and others, Gligar preforms its role very well with proper team support. I don't need to elaborate too much on this one as it's pretty straightforawrd, so I'll just conclude with saying that Gligar should go from C to (Low) B Rank.
     
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  3. Dr. Doom

    Dr. Doom Long time hater of stall

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    Not sure I'd put Mega Absol in A myself. It's fast and powerful, but it's fragile as hell. I'd put it in High B personally.
     
  4. Sakuya Izayoi

    Sakuya Izayoi love to hate

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    Sableye B---->A Despite picking up a fairy-weakness this gen, it is still one of the best physical walls and having reliable recovery to boot. Its typing is also great defensively, allowing it to check even the top physical threats such as Mega Medicham and Weavile, and one of the better checks to pokemon like Diggersby and Crawdaunt. Prankster recover and WoW+Taunt makes it also one of the best stallbreakers in the tier. It also commonly runs either Knock Off or Snarl as its last move, the former having great utility, the latter weakening special attacks and allowing it to take special hits better.
     
  5. Afro Smash

    Afro Smash Mfw I'm living the Australian dream

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    S RANK SMASH RANK
    A RANK AFRO RANK

    Mega Stoise > S - best spinner, bulky, powerful, great coverage
    Mega Absol > B - still very frail, hard to find opportunities to Mega
    Darmanitan > S - Sheer Force Flare Blitz 2hko like everything, has edge-quake coverage, U-Turn for scouting, 95 Speed is good, prolly best Scarfer in the tier.
    Mega Amohy > C super slow, has no real way to get around special walls, Ice/Ground/Dragon attacks common, despite bulk still 2hko'd by most things, basically redundant vs other megas in the tier (viability wise).
     
  6. Amon

    Amon Normal User

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    Ok, ima try not to sound stupid this time.
    Florges->High B rank.
    While it may be a good wall/cleric, it's generally set up bait for any steel type. Especially since florges can't do anything to the likes of Doublade and such. From my past experience florges has never been an issue to me so I don't see it's deserves a A rank.
     
  7. Epikhairz

    Epikhairz Delta Stream

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    Mega Absol has been moved to B Rank
    Lanturn has been added to C Rank (I forgot about this Pokemon)
    Flygon has been added to B Rank (forgot about this one too)

    The rest of the proposed changes will need to be discussed upon further.
     
    Last edited: May 25, 2014
  8. Insane Soul

    Insane Soul Griffith did nothing wrong.

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    Empoleon B--->A (done)

    Although Latias is back, Empoleon still catches they eye on having the very cherished Steel-type. Its special bulk allows it to annoy and wear down rival Defoggers in Mew, Crobat and Latias itself, who do nothing in return bar Synchronized burns and the rare Super Fang and Thunderbolt. You can also turn most walls as setup fodder, Degogging then setting up your Rocks, then switching out without suffering much damage. Its major flaw would definitely be its glaring weakness to Fighting and Ground and its new neutrality to Dark-types, but its truly against Stall teams that this guy truly shines. It loses points due to predictability though.

    Arcanine B--->A (done)

    Arcanine is a top-tier defensive wall, and the only support it needs is Spin/Defog. Of course that is a major flaw that affects all kinds of weak-to-rocks walls, but this is 1/2 times you can point a finger at it. Switching and activating Intimidate already hinders all pokemon who switch in it and dont have a strong super effective move. Even then, it can still defeat pokemon 1v1 like Flygon or even Rhyperior thanks to WoW, the Intimidate drop and constant recovery. Its 110 Base Attack also makes it hit hard any offensive pokemon that isnt weak to Fire (although there are a lot of Dragons and Waters), and of course, LO and Band are as good as they were last gen, with Crunch getting a buff and the chance of running Offensive Intimidate allows it to survive a hit and strike back very nicely. Morning Sun's low PP would be another flaw that stops it from going any higher in the hierarchy.

    Lucario A--->S

    Lucario wins with amazing priority moves what he loses in a bad speed tier for a full offensive pokemon. That, along with poor defensive stats (average for a 4/0 poke) make its flaws. But those are easily patched thanks to its immense versatility that allows it to run 2 fully functional, completely different sets that excel against particular playstyles, making so there is no reliable way to prepare for it. Extreme Speed and Bullet Punch can either cover and OHKO weakened offense, with BP handling fairies and Terrakion, while Nasty Plot is a nightmare to stall, unless it runs quagsire. Obviously it cant run all moves and all sets, but the opponent also has no way to know what it will run. In that way, it is similar to a S-tier pokemon, Victini

    Chesnaught B--->A

    Chesnaught is the physical wall of excellence in UU. It has all the tools in Synthesis recovery, Leech Seed+Spiky Shield stall, the ability to break non-flying types subs with Hammer Arm and access to Spikes. Throwing around Leech Seeds makes it very hard to take down thanks to a buffed protect that hurst anyone that tries to force his way through Chesnaught. This includes prominent threats like MegaCham, Terrakion and Crawdaunt. Its typing also allows it to synergize very well with specials walls like Florges and Vaporeon, reducing its "niche" status.

    Will do more when i have the time. Terrific job guys, congratulations, especially you @Epikhairz
     
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2014
  9. Epikhairz

    Epikhairz Delta Stream

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    Hello, this is Epikhairz, the cool kid on PO, bumping the thread with a massive update. Ranks A, B, and C have been split into (+) and (-) subranks! Thanks to @Insane Soul , @Proof , and @somerandomguy , as well as the people who helped me with the initial list, for helping me with this process!

    Of course, with the subdivision of ranks, comes a numerous amount of changes. Some of these changes were suggested in the thread, while others were made in our private group when we were working on the subdivision of ranks! If you disagree with where a Pokemon is placed, you may, and are encouraged to, post about it.

    Happy posting!

    :]
     
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  10. Dr. Doom

    Dr. Doom Long time hater of stall

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    I really don't agree with Shuckle being in B- rank. Yes being able to set up Sticky Web is nice, but the fact is UU just has too many good Rapid Spinners/Defoggers (Mega Blastoise, Donphan, Stamie, Forretress, Empoleon, Latias, Mew, defensive Zapdos, WishMence) to make Shuckle a good Pokémon in the tier. Galvantula can set up Sticky Web and has decent offensive presence; Smeargle can incapacitate something with Spore/Dark Void and when it's not needed anymore can either give another sweeper opportunities with Memento or restore a teammate with Lunar Dance. And on top of that, Shuckle's epic defences are undermined by terrible HP and no recovery (if you want to avoid being complete Taunt bait you need a Mental Herb). C- at best IMO.
     
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2014
  11. Epikhairz

    Epikhairz Delta Stream

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    Well, you see, the thing with Galvantula and Smeargle is that they're essentially suicide leads, who do nothing but get their hazards up and die, which makes it much easier for the spinners / defoggers you mentioned to get those hazards off and never have to have them on again for the entirety of the match. However, with Shuckle, it's at least bulky enough to stand a fair chance of coming back and resetting hazards, meaning it can come in an reset hazards when all the troublesome and good spinners / defoggers are gone. And Shuckle is never completely Taunt bait because Mental Herb is pretty standard on Shuckle. C- seems far too low for what is quite possibly the most reliable Sticky Web user in the game.
     
  12. Dr. Doom

    Dr. Doom Long time hater of stall

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    Sticky Web really isn't all it's cracked up to be. Yes it can help slower Pokémon like Crawdaunt sweep, but there are still lots of Pokémon immune to it and getting rid of entry hazards in UU is extremely easy. It is a good Sticky Web setter, but that's all it can do and with a plethora of good Spinners and Defoggers, that's just not enough of a niche. C+ tops IMO.
     
  13. Virizion

    Virizion ~ Taste the Rainbow ~

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    Note: This example is just my opinion on Sticky Web and Shuckle, and I'm just sharing out my personal thoughts there. It's probably a whole of baloney to everybody else, but I felt that I needed to express my opinion out there, just to share it and see if anybody else agrees or not. Thanks.

    Sticky Web can still affect the majority of the tier effectively, however. Almost all of the top tier threats in UU use 252 Spd because they want to outspeed as many threats as they can, and be able to KO them as fast as possible, an example would be Mega Gardevoir. MGarde has a pretty nice speed as it hits the Base 100 mark, however the problem with this is that she can't run any other item if she is a mega evolution set, specifically Choice Scarf. Pokémon such as Victini are good in the tier due to the use of equipping an item, and being able to grab momentum with their attacks, and having a possibility to hinder that item, the item that gives them as much Speed Control as possible, the item that they rely on to make that set effective, and because since they then have to rely on a speed tie, for example, the situation becomes a lot harder to face. A terrible example I know, but I digress. This alone makes Sticky Web a viable move in UU, despite the lack of users, which links to my next point.

    Shuckle having Sturdy, pretty good defenses, and the ability to hold an item such as a Mental Herb makes that alone a great user of Sticky Web. For example, Smeargle, Leavanny (lol), and Galvantula mainly have to rely on a Focus Sash to set-up their respective hazard and making sure it stays there can get pretty tough if the opponent happens to bring a Spinner / Defogger, and it makes that situation even worse due to the fact that the 3 aforementioned Pokémon mainly shine at the start if the match. Shuckle however, doesn't face too much of an issue. Having great defenses (even with one of the worst HP stats in the game) helps this a lot, as it's easier to send in Shuckle more than once or twice in a game. The reason is that if a Defog or an opposing Rapid Spin does come up, then it's not necessarily the end of the world. Slightly theorymonning there, but people can try to see the point that I made.

    Give him the right support, play him well, and make him work well, and Shuckle can be a very effective Pokémon in the XY UU Metagame. Therefore, I believe that B/B+ is a very suitable tier for it.

    TL;DR: In my opinion Shuckle is the 'best' Sticky Webber in the UU Metagame and Sticky Web is a very viable move.
     
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2014
  14. Celebi.

    Celebi. Active Member

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    Why is Mega Zam below non-mega? I believe Mega should at least be of the same tier. I can't think of a logical reason for it to be tiered lower. The loss of Magic Guard is not a huge deal because Zam is a Glass Cannon anyway. It gets Defense, Speed, and Special Attack boosted while the other stats remain. It is even more threatening than the normal set and is better suited to deal with priority with Substitute being common, if not a mandatory move on Mega Zam. It may be a bit of theory mon, but I believe Mega Zam should be A+
     
  15. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Badged Deucer

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    I've used half this tier in ubers N_N (including Koffing)
    but srsly gastrodon is listed as being in both C rank and C+ rank. Fix dat imo
     
    Last edited: Jul 27, 2014
  16. Finchinator

    Finchinator IT’S FINK DUMBASS

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    Volcarona should go S rank. It is probably the most potent special sweeper in the tier with good speed+SATK and a godsend of a boosting move in Quiver Dance. It can sweep many common archetypes of teams and revenge killing Volc can only be done by Scarf Terrak or Mence (fun fact: outrage only kills 1/2 the time from +Spd ScarfMence). Walling it isn't much easier, so yea it easily fits into the S Rank tier from previously unlisted, IMO
     
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  17. Celebi.

    Celebi. Active Member

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    @Finchinator
    I don't think it makes sense to put Volc in any rank until the inevitable suspect discussion ends. It's clear that it is a threat and people are asking for it to be banned. I mean it can be put there to only potentially, and most likely removed, or we could just wait for the result :P
     
  18. Finchinator

    Finchinator IT’S FINK DUMBASS

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    If it is suspect/ban worthy, then odds are it should be in S rank. There is no downside to putting it in S rank now and then removing it if it gets banned. It certainly belongs there and keeping it unlisted would be silly, in my opinion. Furthermore, I stand by Volc4S
     
  19. Insane Soul

    Insane Soul Griffith did nothing wrong.

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    - Removed Gastrodon from C Rank and maintained it at C+. In case of repeated entrants in the same ranking, but different sub-rankings, we should favour the highest sub-ranking.

    - Changed Volcarona from Unranked to S Rank for obvious reasons. The fact that it is granted a suspect and a lot of discussion towards its ban implies a pokemon should be in the S Rank, so i agree with Finch.

    Also, i would like some discussion on the subject of MegaZam and Scolipede, both currently standing at the A Rank. In both cases, the tier changes seem to benefit their usage and viability, MegaZam by losing a special stallbreaker competitor in MegaGarde and Scolipede by benefiting from the usage of Florges to counter/check dragons, using the fairy as setup fodder, and the newfound investment on its defenses, allowing it to better deal with balanced teams or even tank powerful neutral hits, setup, gain boosts and attempt a sweep.

    Of course, Mega Manetric's ability to check pokemon like Weavile with Intimidate, and its status as a special hitter with a Mega spot makes it tougher for Mega Zam, as well as the preference for other setup mons in Zygarde and Volcarona makes Scolipede fall behind as the #1 choice for a setup sweeper/wallbreaker. This quick explanation makes it enough for them to not ascend to S Rank, with the former paragraph, in my opinion, favouring their rise to A+ Rank.
     
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  20. Celebi.

    Celebi. Active Member

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    @Insane Soul
    No one has responded to my post about Mega Zam. I must ask, why is it ranked lower than normal Zam?
    And I still disagree with ranking Volc until it is officially in the tier (assuming it stays) but that's just something minor. Not like it really matters either way.
     
  21. Isa

    Isa Well-Known Tauros

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    1. Magic Sash, that is all. Sash has always been the main reason why Alakazam has seen play since Magic Guard was introduced in gen 5, and MegaZam doesn't get anything that makes it superior.

    2. How is something "not officially in the tier" if you can use it on the ladder, in tournaments etc. etc.? ^_-
     
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  22. Celebi.

    Celebi. Active Member

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    1. I don't think Magic Sash makes normal Zam superior or even all that impressive as a set having played with it and against it in UU thus far. Although it is technically the same mon they are used in slightly different ways because of the Sash.

    2. I suppose it's just my personal opinion on usage drops. I see them as tests more than anything else.

    Also, Goth is still listed.
     
  23. Insane Soul

    Insane Soul Griffith did nothing wrong.

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    Removed Gothitelle from the A Rank, since it was banned. Obviously Volcarona is part of the tier, since it entered UU in a legitimate way through usage drops, can be shown in the usage stats, can be used in the ladder and in tournaments and has an actual discussion about it right now, in this subforum [​IMG]

    About Alakazam, although i think MegaZam is overall a bit inferior to regular Alakazam, i think their viability is close enough that they should be in the same ballpark.
    However, you underestimate how legit Sashed pokemon were, and still are, in UU. Crawdaunt, (lead) Terrakion and Lucario all are very viable as Sash holders, but Alakazam has the edge over these for being able to use Encore and Psych Up to steal momentum while hanging on to its Sash (e.g. a rampaging Volcarona that gets its boosts shared with Alakazam). This means that it will always attack at least once, and possibly kill something thanks to its coverage.

    This is probably the only positive it has over MegaZam, but it is such a good one that it justifies its current position. Keep in mind MegaZam can afford to go Modest due to its high MegaEvo speed, hitting harder with 175 Base Sp. Atk than regular LO Alakazam, who has to run Timid nature.
     
  24. Celebi.

    Celebi. Active Member

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    Correct me if wrong, but retests also get seen in usage stats and can be used in ladders and tours right? I stated how it just seems like that is my personal opinion on usage drops so I seem to be the minority/only person, but besides that minor nitpick (which honestly doesn't deserve any more discussion), you can't say that I underestimate how legit Sash mons are. I'm aware of the common ones and what they do, as well as how to play them. I also don't think comparing sash Zam to those other sashed mons is justified in this case. All 3 of those sashed mons posses characteristics that Zam doesn't giving them a technical advantage over Zam. It seems like you are trying to tell my that my opinion on the fact that I don't find SashZam impressive is wrong. I might be wrong here, but that's just what it seems like to me.

    Yes there are viable sash mons in the tier that when used right can be threatening. In terms of Mega Zam vs Sash Zam, each has its own merits. I don't think it is accurate to say Mega Zam is inferior because Sash Zam is guaranteed a hit. You exchange your guaranteed hit for better Speed, Defense, and Sp.A stats. Mega Zam scores 2hko's that Sash Zam only wishes it could achieve. My whole point in this is not that one is better than the other, or arguing whether they should be A, A+, or A-, just the fact that they should be ranked evenly wherever they end up.
     
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2014
  25. Enei

    Enei WAFSTB

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    [​IMG]
    *** Note the beautiful Choice Scarf ***


    I believe that Gligar should be moved up from B- to B+. Gligar has many things going for it that make it a superlative Pokemon in the XY UU tier.

    1. Flying / Ground typing
    With a Flying and ground typing, Gligar has 3 (useful) resistances, 2 (useful) immunities, immunity to both forms of spikes, and a resistance to Stealth Rock. Gligar resists Fighting, Bug, and Poison, three common types of moves in XY UU, allowing it to beat common Pokemon like Medicham, Terrakion, Scolipede, Darmanitan, Machamp, and Rhyperior. Gligar's typing gives it the perks of a flying type, while taking none of the type's weaknesses, such as a weakness to Electric and Rock type moves, and a weakness to Stealth Rock, while gaining an immunity to Ground Type moves.

    Gligar's typing also gives it many opportunities to switch and sponge hits, while roosting off the damage. With a part Flying typing, Gligar dodges Spikes damage and Toxic Spikes crippling poison (It also Dodges Sticky Web but that isn't really relevant to Gligar). This means that it can't get Badly Poisoned or Poisoned unless you are hit with a Toxic, allowing it to survive much longer through the match, than a Gastrodon would, because it would be taking Spikes damage upon the switch, and Toxic Spikes damage. Gligar's typing also allow it to avoid losing 25% of it's health on the switch, thanks to it's part Ground typing, it only takes 12.5% percent of it's health upon switching. Meaning it can last longer throughout a match, as it resists all entry hazards, and will grant Gligar many switches throughout the match.

    2. Movepool
    Gligar has a very good movepool, allowing it access to important (and useful) moves. Gligar can utilize; Defog, Earthquake, Knock Off, Roost, Stealth Rock, Tailwind, Taunt, Toxic, U-Turn, Swords Dance, Hone Claws, Agility, and Baton Pass. Most notably in Gligar arsenal, it has acces to Roost, allowing it to recover half of it's total HP, at the cost of Gligar being grounded for a turn, being grounded doesn't do much to harm Gligar, as it would only be effected by Ground type moves, which only do neutral damage to it, and with it's high defense, it won't have to worry about most Ground moves. Gligar also has access to the newly buffed Defog, which removes all forms of hazards (3/4 of which it is immune to and is resistant to Stealth Rocks) giving Gligar lots of chances to switch in and remove hazards thanks to it's typing, defenses, and resistance to all hazards. Everyone knows how important Stealth Rocks are to both Offensive and Defensive oriented teams alike, and Gligar is one of the best Pokemon to use this move, as Gligar forces a ton of switches, it will have many chances to set them up, meaning Gligar can both remove and apply hazards to the battle, giving it a secondary use after being a physical wall.

    Gligar also has a strong STAB in Earthquake, the newly buffed Knock Off, which now sees a lot of competitive use, and Gligar is another good user of this move, allowing it to remove important items on switch ins, such as Choice Scarf, Bands, and Specs, common items on Pokemon like Victini, Terrakion, Hydreigon, Chandelure, and Magnezone. Knock off also allows the removal Leftovers, Black Sludge, and Eviolite's from bulky pokemon like Slowbro, Mew, Florges, Umbreon, and Sableye. Finally, Gligar has the ability to utilize Taunt, Toxic, Tailwind, U-Turn, and the ability to run a Baton Passing set with moves like Agility, Swords Dance, and Hone Claws.

    3. Abilities
    Gligar has 3 abilities, Hyper Cutter, Immunity, and Sand Veil. Immunity is the main ability of choice, allowing Gligar to have a full immunity to Toxic and Poisoning. This means that it can never be worn down by Toxic damage, meaning Gligar is a Physical wall that can never be Poisoned. Seem too good to be true? Well it kind of is, Gligar cannot have both Defog and Immunity on the same set, so you will either have a Poison able Gligar with Defog, or a Poison immune Gligar with Stealth Rocks. Now this doesn't mean that if Gligar doesn't have Immunity, it's complete garbage, Gligar will still operate as a strong Physical wall on your team, that will be able to remove hazards, you'll just have to watch out for Toxic, by either predicting, or having Cleric support on your team, through Florges, Umbreon, Celebi, Vaporeon, or something else.

    Keep in mind that most of these Pokemon pair strongly with Gligar, it taking the strong physical attacks for the the likes of Florges and Umbreon, and they in return being able to take the strong Special attacks aimed at it. Hyper Cutter is an average ability that prevents Gligar's attack stat from being lowered, but as Gligar isn't a particularly offensive Pokemon, it's mostly useless. Also Sand Veil is shit.

    4. Stats
    Gligar's stats are poor to average as a first glance would reveal, 65 HP, 75 Attack, 105 Defense, 35 Special Attack, 65 Special Defense, and 85 Speed with incredibly mediocre stats, one would ask themselves why they would ever use Gligar, the answer lies in an item introduced in B/W, Eviolite. With Eviolite, any NFE Pokemon's defenses are boosted by 50%, meaning Gligar's defense stat is really at 157.5, and it's Special Defense stat is at 97.5, turning Gligar into a defensive Goliath, which makes up for it's mediocre HP. Gligar also can make use of it's fairly high for a defensive pokemon, meaning it can hit before some slower stall Pokemon, allowing it to Taunt slower Stall oriented Pokemon, which is very useful on a stall Pokemon, but overall the speed stat doesn't matter much on Gligar.

    Gligar has a high viability on stall and balanced offensive teams, it's typing, moves, abilities, and stats give it a good viability in the XY UU tier, allowing it to counter a vast amount of Offensive UU Pokemon. All of these factors allow Gligar to preform as one of the best Physical walls in the tier, meaning that it's B- ranking should be moved up higher, as it is a premier counter to many of the Pokemon of top usage. With all of these factors, Gligar deserves to be much higher on the viability ranking, Gligar has a higher viability than most pokemon on the B list, and some B+ Pokemon, such as Bronzong, Yanmega, Noivern, Qwilfish, Ninetales, Slowking, and Metagross.
     
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2014
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  26. just2bquiet

    just2bquiet Member

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    Zygarde should be up there in S imo. He has atleast 2 good sets in DD or SubCoil both of which can easily sweep a team with a weakened Florges or team in general. You can slap him on any kind of team and he will do his job well, whether it be DD sweeping or phazing with D-tail. He also switches into many top threats rather safely and is a godsend for offensive teams who often lack a switchin for Victini, Darma etc. He checks a lot of physical attackers and if you give him a turn of setup you are in for trouble. He's the reason many teams are putting ice beam on their supportmons whether it be Mew or Deoxys or whatever, and is one of the most dangerous setup-sweepers in UU atm, on par with Volcarona in my opinion.
     
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  27. Finchinator

    Finchinator IT’S FINK DUMBASS

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    Deoxys-D and Volcarona both need removal due to bans.
     
  28. Epikhairz

    Epikhairz Delta Stream

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    removed both

    would like to see some more discussion on the following:

    Zygarde: A+ ---> S
    Gligar: B- ---> B+

    I've also decided that the Alakazam formes will stay where they are for now.
     
  29. Enei

    Enei WAFSTB

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    Gligar beats
    3/7 S Rank pokes
    5/13 A+ Rank pokes
    6/10 A Rank pokes
    4/13 A- Rank pokes

    that's 20/43 of the top 4 ranked pokemon groups, nearly half, are beaten by Gligar. 3/7 pokemon in the S group (nearly half) being beaten by a pokemon in B- is pretty astounding (B- is 5 groups below S), you'd think that pokemon would be higher considering it can take on half of the tier's top threats.
     
  30. OUAzumarill

    OUAzumarill Active Member

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    Tiny nitpick, but you have normal Banette's name where Mega Banette's picture (and where I'd assume the actual pokemon itself) would be.
     
  31. AmourShipper

    AmourShipper meh i'm bored

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    Zygarde should be S Rank. It is easily one of the best boosting sweepers in the metagame, and in general one of the best Pokemon in the tier. Zygarde is ridiculously bulky which allows it to set up with ease: even Weavile's Ice Punch doesn't OHKO (not that I would try this, but it's a testament to just how bulky this thing is). It has amazing coverage in Dragon and Ground, which allows its DD set to sweep teams with relative ease after setting up a boost or two. The SubCoil set is really good atm, it sets up on so many things really easily and after some boosts, it's not only really difficult to break, but it's also pretty powerful, and its Dragon Tail not only forces out Pokemon and shuffles, but also makes it hard to phaze since its D-Tail will go before most phazers. A Defensive ParaShuffler set isn't out of the question either, as with Glare it can spread paralysis and shuffle, and EQ allows it to deal with the Electric-types that don't care about Glare, such as Raikou and Mega Manectric. Overall, Zygarde is just incredible atm and should be S Rank.
     
  32. ThatMushroom

    ThatMushroom The Spirit Molecule

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    Imo Tangrowth should move from B to B+

    It's one of the few counters to Crawdaunt in the tier and it actually has Regenerator which gives it a huge advantage over Chesnaught. It only takes about half from banded Knock Off and OHKOes with Giga Drain next turn. It's also one of the best dragon checks, specifically vs Salamence, Zygarde, Haxorus, stuff like that. A +4 Zygarde can't even OHKO the thing while Tangrowth easily 2HKOes with HP Ice. HP Ice should be mandatory on it imo considering how good of a Dragon counter it is. It's amazing vs Terrakion, Lucario, Rhyperior, nearly all Fighting types, bulky waters, etc. With AV it also serves as a very solid Electric check, I'm thinking of stuff like Magnezone, Thundy-T, and CM Raikou. HP Ice and EQ smash those three. Its movepool is amazing, Sleep Powder, Stun Spore, Toxic, Hidden Power, Giga Drain, Earthquake, Power Whip, Sludge Bomb, Knock Off, Synthesis, it has all the options it needs. Super underrated mon.
     
  33. OUAzumarill

    OUAzumarill Active Member

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    Slight housekeeping, but Gardevoir is OU, yet it is listed at C-.

    I second moving Tangrowth. ThatMushroom covered pretty much everything, and I'd like to emphasize how awesome it is as an assvest user.
     
  34. Celebi.

    Celebi. Active Member

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    I'd like to second Zygarde moving to S tier.

    It is one of the most potent and diverse forces in the meta right now.
    It can run an offensive DD, bulky DD, Sub Coil, Parashuffler, and defensive wall set incredibly well. It's massive bulk allows it to set up on a large portion of the tier without too much hassle. Although its speed tier kind of sucks, Zygarde makes up for it in bulky allowing getting to +2/+2 a fairly easy task. EQ + Outrage hit the entire for neutral damage at worst. The Sub Coil set find an oddly ample amount of set up opportunities. Again, Zygarde's incredible bulk really helps out here as it allows Zygarde to be able to take Scald's and STosses without losing its sub. It takes a few boosts before it begins to really hurt teams, but those boosts are fairly easy to come by. The parashuffling and defensive wall sets continue to abuse Zygarde's bulk. The former spreading paralysis and racking up nice residual damage, while the latter punishes every physical attacker in the tier with decently powerful EQ's and Dtails in combination with Rocky Helmet damage.

    It takes Ice moves well due to it's great bulk so the damge done by HP Ice's, Glaciates, and other various Ice moves is somewhat neutralized as thy often don't score KO's on Zygarde
     
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  35. Epikhairz

    Epikhairz Delta Stream

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    Latias, Mega Manectric, and Donphan (LOL) have been removed due to their recent rise to OU by usage.

    Other changes:

    Zygarde: A+ -----> S
    Gligar: B- -----> B+
    Tangrowth: B -----> B+

    Diancie has also been added to Unranked. Much of this Pokemon remains a mystery, so some discussion here would be especially nice!
     
  36. JeyTheGrey

    JeyTheGrey PWRFL!! YOU NEED A REVIVE!

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    EDIT: Removed Mega Medicham from the list, since it got banned.

    I would suggest to place Diancie in the A- or B+ Rank. Due to its fairy typing and great defense (on both spectrums), it can take on a ton of pokes and get up Stealth Rocks reliably.

    Also, having tested Mega Alakazam myself, I think it should go either S Rank or A+. It has a great spatt, as well as high enough speed to outspeed Weavile with modest nature. It can 2 hit KO a lot in the Tier, it has a great special movepool and can even boost spatt with Calm Minds.

    Some other suggestions:

    Mew --> A+
    It still is a great wall and has a lot of reliable sets, but its usage is now reduced due to the Mega Medichan ban, since it was Medichams initial counter. Now that Medicham is gone, Mew is a good asset to the team, but less likely chosen as a member.

    Scolipede --> S
    Its ability Speed Boost makes it a huge problem in the UU-Tier. It can either set up hazards, it can pass the speed boosts to a certain Pokemon with which it might defeat you, or it can even Swords Dance itself, making it unpredictable and lethal as a sweeper. It can safely get up an SD on something like Florges or on the predicted switch-out and run through teams.

    Florges --> A+
    It has a huge spdef, even without any investment and with large investment in defense and HP, it can take a lot of hits and is therefore a great support. It is almost guaranteed to win 1v1 against every Dragon type in the tier, with some exceptions. It deserves its place in A+ Rank.

    Nidoking --> A+ or A
    Even though Nidoking might lack some speed, it can hit very hard and is difficult to switch in to. It has few counters and it still outspeeds all the walls it needs to in the UU-Tier. It takes on Volt-Turn and fairies very well, which are running around everywhere.
     
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2014
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  37. Sakuya Izayoi

    Sakuya Izayoi love to hate

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    glad to see scolipede and mega zam finally getting some love

    Tornadus-T for A+ rank or perhaps even S (a bit of a stretch but ehhhh). Tornadus-T is an amazing pivot atm, it has really great stat distribution and a fantastic speed stat lets it outrun a huge portion of the unboosted tier, great ability in regenerator which lets it recover back to almost full health without SR and its expansive movepool is what further solidifies its position as a top tier offensive pivot. the above mentioned qualities allow Tornadus-T to run many different sets, most notably a physical stallbreaker, special based attacker and it is also fully capable of running a mixed set and even an assault vast set.

    Mega Ampharos for A-. damn this thing is simply amazing at taking hits and is by far one of the best partners to crocune as it eliminates most electric/grass have 0 way of getting past mega amphy and it even has heal bell to boot. a slow volt switch means a very heavy hard-hitter can come in safely and even nothing wants without very good special bulk or heavy special defensive investment can eat a hit from mega amphy without taking a dent.

    Mega Aerodactyl for A-. by far this is hands down the best offensive defogger in the tier atm, and despite its SR weakness aero still can alleviate this problem with roost. Mega Aero is so damn fast it doesn't even need jolly, it can choose to run adamant to hit much harder. UU atm really lacks hazard control pokemon and this lets mega aero fulfill a very good niche as a strong offensive defogger and isn't reliant on weak attacks like salamence and still has a very solid offensive presence and good offensive typing unlike crobat.

    these are definitely 3 very underrated and underused pokemon atm but definitely should see a lot more use to realise their full potential.
     
  38. Finchinator

    Finchinator IT’S FINK DUMBASS

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    Hi.

    I agree with Jey about Diancie, Mew, MegaZam (A+), and Florges. Diancie has a sort of niche typing that can help it check pokemon throughout the metagame, get up rocks, and not be totally deadweight on the offensive end of the spectrum, either. Mew is a stellar support pokemon, sure, but that doesn't mean it's metagame defining in any sense of the term; despite it being able to check a plethora of pokemon, even after Cham's ban, Mew still isn't able to wall quite a few threats and arguably suffers from 4mss (although it isn't too much of a pain in most cases). MegaZam hits like a truck and only really needs Psyshock+DazzlingGleam+ShadowBall, leaving it room for either CM or Encore. With the immense speed, trace, the ability to act as a utility w/ encore or sweeper w/ CM, and amazing SAtk, I just think it's too good to be ranked in A, which is a rank lower than its non-mega form, who is still notably threatening thanks to a sash set, but they aren't 100% comparable at the moment. Finally, Florges is the best wish passer in the tier and also one of the few fairies that are viable (assuming you aren't Proof and fetish Aromatisse). Fairy typing is quite helpful in checking pokemon like Hydreigon and with the shitton of special bulk (and decent physical bulk once invested in) alongside the supportive capabilities of Florges, it just adds up to being worth of the A+ rank.

    Some other changes that I advise are the following: Mienshao to A-, Machamp to B+, and Forretress to B+/A-. Mienshao is honestly underwhelming in UU this generation; I rarely see it to begin with, but when I do it doesn't do much, imo. With Terrakion, Heracross, and Lucario, people prepare quite a bit for fighting type pokemon and this curses Mienshao as it lacks much coverage (it's unable to break Slowbro, Gligar, Florges, Defensive Mence, etc.) or a secondary STAB. Solid Speed + Regen / Reckless + Scarf/LO sets are great and all, but it just isn't doing much in the current metagame, imo, so it should be demoted to at least A-. Onto the next fighting type, Machamp. Champ has gained a big niche with Assault Vest this generation, making it a decent check to a lot of special attackers (scarf Hydre being a big example), while still being able to pull its usual shenanigans with Dynamic Punch + No Gaurd (not to mention that it can now Knock things off)! So yea, I think it's worthy of the A- rank, even without the need to use it to check Volc (as it's banned now), as it still is a capable pokemon in the tier. Finally, Forry is just a solid spinner that doesn't waste a mega slot like MegaToise or have issues with bulk/typing like Starmie arguably does. It has a solid typing and the only real downside of Forry is letting some pokemon set up or switch in pretty easily, but it can work around this with Volt Switch and even Gyro Ball, in some cases. Good spinner, hazard setter, etc. just makes it seem like it's good enough to be a tier above things like Yanmega and Trevenant, if not two tiers above.
     
  39. Aurist

    Aurist I do not jump for joy. I frolic in doubt.

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    I would agree with Diancie in B+ rank, it's a solid supporter and its Cro set is good too (best set imo) - it deals with a bunch of useful pokemon well and it baits certain pokemon really well so it's pretty easy to support and it doesn't get ohkoed by frickin anything that isnt 4x effective. I'm hesitant to say A- just cos there are a handful of pokemon that get in its way largely due to its typing and it is rather predictable once you know the set

    And I agree with MegaZam being A+ because I'm not an idiot
     
  40. Celebi.

    Celebi. Active Member

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    Agreeing with Jey on MegaZam as it is something I was preaching for a few months ago. I'm not sure if I agree with moving Nidoking up as I think it's fine where it is. It suffers quite a bit by not being able to outspeed a good number of the offensive threats in the tier, however, it is still incredibly difficult to switch into and has surprising bulk at times. I wouldn't split any hairs if it did move up though. I agree with the rest of the post.

    @Finchinator
    Mienshao is easily the most underrated Fighting type in UU (imo 2nd best in the tier). It is an absolute monster. SD+LO (I run SD/HJK/Poison Jab/Knock Off) gets past both Slowbro and Defensive Mew. Florges just loses to +2 Poison Jab. You can run Mixed LO as uninvested HP Ice 2hko's both Defensive Mence and Gligar. It also hits Zygarde Scarf is always a solid set as base 105 Speed is golden in UU. I believe the coverage it gets works incredibly well in the UU environment. Between HJK, Knock Off, Poison Jab, and HP Ice it hits all of UU that it needs to. That's the only thing that I just downright disagree with. Maybe there is a bit of bias as Shao is something I've used quite a bit and have had quite a bit of success with it, but I believe Mienshao is criminally underused, and because of that isn't valued as high as it should be.

    Calc proof of badassery
    +2 252 Atk Life Orb Mienshao Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 361-426 (91.6 - 108.1%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
    +2 252 Atk Life Orb Mienshao Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mew: 385-455 (95.2 - 112.6%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
    +2 252 Atk Life Orb Mienshao Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Florges: 403-476 (111.9 - 132.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    +2 252 Atk Life Orb Mienshao High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Florges: 246-289 (68.3 - 80.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
    0 SpA Life Orb Mienshao Hidden Power Ice vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Eviolite Gligar: 203-244 (60.9 - 73.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    0 SpA Life Orb Mienshao Hidden Power Ice vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Gligar: 140-166 (42 - 49.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
    0 SpA Life Orb Mienshao Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Salamence: 260-307 (65.9 - 77.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
     
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2014