[Skeleton] Starmie

Discussion in 'LU Analyses' started by Spoovo The Pirate, Apr 19, 2014.

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  1. Spoovo The Pirate

    Spoovo The Pirate Meep! Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    [​IMG]

    I can finally start writing new things! :3

    == General ==

    *After five generations at the top, Starmie has reluctantly fallen from grace in Gen 6, due to its primary niche as a Rapid Spinner being ruined by the huge buff Defog received.

    *It's still not a bad pokemon by any means, but it's dropped two tiers to LU. However, this isn't necessarily a bad thing, because it's one of the tier's leading offensive pokemon, sporting a great movepool and the stats to abuse it, as well as two highly useful abilities in Natural Cure and Analytic, the former of which allows it to reliably absorb status for the team, and the latter turns it into a speedy powerhouse.

    *Another title Starmie lost this generation was its tying for the fastest non legendary Water-type with Floatzel, which Greninja stole. However, its base 115 Speed is very good for the LU tier, capping at an impressive 361 Speed. Its base 100 Special Attack isn't to be sniffed at either, and it isn't even frail, with passable 60/85/85 defences.
    *Its Water/Psychic typing does work against it however, as big threats like Honchkrow and (mega) Houndoom can easily take it out with a Sucker Punch, and the likes of Raikou and Heliolisk will rarely fail to scare it away.
    *However, this doesn't stop Starmie from being one of the most used pokemon in LU. As long as you stick to its strengths, it'll be the star player in your team.

    == Offensive ==

    Starmie @ Life Orb
    Ability: Analytic
    EVs: 252 SAtk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
    Timid nature

    -Hydro Pump / Surf
    -Thunderbolt
    -Ice Beam
    -Rapid Spin / Psyshock

    *Starmie's high Speed , respectable Special Attack, and impressive movepool allow it to function very well as a late game cleanup sweeper, one that can also double as a spinner if needed.
    *The EVs are simple, maxing out Special Attack and Speed, with 4 Special Defence EVs preventing Download users like Porygon2 (or Z) from gaining their desired boosts. The Life Orb is the given hold item for optimising power.

    *Hydro Pump gets the very first slash because it has the power Starmie needs. It isn't very reliable however, so Surf is there for the accuracy conscious.
    *Thunderbolt and Ice Beam in slots 2 and 3 are recommended coverage options, giving Starmie coveted BoltBeam coverage and hitting just about everything for neutral damage. If you find yourself never using one of them, either can be swapped out for Psyshock, which is listed in slot 4 behind Rapid Spin.
    *Rapid Spin in slot 4 is usually staple, allowing Starmie to remove entry hazards from your side of the field once you've taken care of the opponent's hazard setter(s). Psyshock however is a useful alternative however, as not only does it hit for STAB, but it also hits special walls like Snorlax, Assault Vest Machamp, and the very common Florges for much heavier damage than its Special Attacks.
    *Analytic is the recommended ability for this offensive set, because if you can force a switch (or otherwise hit the opponent AFTER they've moved), you get a free 30% power boost on top of the Life Orb boost. This means some potentially serious damage can be dealt, which really helps Starmie's finishing sweep.
    *Recover is perfectly viable on this set, to help Starmie survive for longer, but seeing as it is a cleanup sweeper, and works best late game, it's unlikely that it'll be needed. If you like more longevity on Starmie, take a gander at the next set.

    == Defensive Spinner ==

    Starmie @Leftovers
    Ability: Natural Cure
    EVs: 252 HP / 48 SDef / 208 Spd
    Timid nature

    -Scald
    -Rapid Spin
    -Recover
    -Psyshock / Thunderbolt / Ice Beam

    *This set focuses more on Starmie's primary niche as a Rapid Spinner, but lacks the offensive presence that the previous set has. It's not as flexible as the previous set, but it lasts longer, meaning it'll be better off against more stall orientated teams.

    *Natural Cure is the only given ability this time, seeing as a defensive set won't make much use of Analytic, and the Leftovers are listed instead of the Life Orb on this set for more survivability.
    *The HP EVs make the most of Starmie's reasonable bulk (although a base 60 HP really lets it down), while 208 Speed EVs are used to get the jump on Jolly Durant, because anything faster than that isn't worth wasting EVs on. Froslass is worth considering, and only costs 8 more Speed EVs, but isn't very common. Lastly, 48 Special Defence EVs serve the same purpose as last time; preventing Porygon2 and Z from gaining favourable Download boosts. It also makes a fair difference in tanking special hits

    *The given moves on this set are noticeably different, however; Rapid Spin is the only prominent move on both sets.
    *Scald is listed for the main STAB this time, as it can fish for burns while still inflicting reasonable damage, and helping check threats like Escavalier, who really would not appreciate a burn.
    *Recover gets a main listing this time, as this set intends to survive as long as possible, and a reliable recovery option is rarely a bad idea on a defensive pokemon.
    *The last slot however, has two other offensive options crammed into it. Psyshock is the highest recommended, as it stops Starmie from being completely lost against special walls such as Florges (however it still won't hit hard enough to threaten most sets), while Ice Beam getting a backslash for any niche usefulness it may have. It won't see a lot of usage, however it can be used to hit problem pokemon like Flygon hard.

    == Other Options ==

    *Starmie can make use of the Choice Specs, Choice Scarf, or even Assault Vest on a simple 4 attacks set. Considering its movepool is easily wide enough, and 4 attacks sets are relatively common, it's not an insane idea.

    *Other offensive moves Starmie can make use of are Grass Knot for hitting the likes of Swampert and Quagsire harder than anything else it has access to, Flash Cannon for its best option against Fairies, however specially defensive ones like Florges will be hit harder by Psyshock, Dazzling Gleam to hit incoming pure Dark-types (as well as Dragon- and Fighting-types, but those are generally covered by Ice Beam and Psychic/shock, respectively), and Hidden Power Fire is also worth a mention to hit the likes of Forretress and Escavalier hard. Signal Beam and Power Gem also exist in Starmie's movepool, but their targets are very niche (with the rare Exeggutor and Articuno being respective examples)

    *Starmie can set up rain with Rain Dance, and abuse it fairly well with both Surf/Hydro Pump and a perfectly accurate Thunder. Substitute is viable to protect Starmie from status, however switching out tends to do the same thing if you're using Natural Cure. Dual screening is possible, but there are better setters (with Bronzong being a great example). Toxic is fun for helping break walls, but finding room for it is hard, and Thunder Wave also exists in Starmie's support movepool, although it doesn't have much use, especially with Raikou and Ampharos being very common Starmie switch ins.

    *Lastly, it's worth noting that Starmie gets some fun niche options, such as Pain Split, Gravity, and Reflect Type. The latter is interesting, because Starmie can use its high Speed to wall slower pokemon by simply changing type, however it is unreliable and difficult to use well. Gravity can also be used in tandem with Hydro Pump, Thunder, and Blizzard for a hard hitting set.

    == Checks and Counters ==

    *Cofagrigus stands out, as the tier's most prominent Ghost-type. Simply being a Ghost-type prevents Starmie from using Rapid Spin, and it can easily threaten Starmie with a powerful Shadow Ball, which will 2HKO at the worst. A Life Orb Hydro Pump can threaten a 2HKO in return thanks to Analytic, making Cofagrigus only a strong check, but Stealth Rock damage and Life Orb recoil puts Starmie into KO range for Cofagrigus' Shadow Ball, so Starmie has a disadvantage in this match up.

    *Assault Vest Escavalier is a great offensive answer, not getting 2HKOed by a Life Orb Hydro Pump, and easily tearing through Starmie with Megahorn. A burned Escavalier can't quite OHKO bulky Starmie with Megahorn though, so it must watch out for stray Scalds from the defensive set.

    *Sucker Punches are an effective way of beating Starmie, especially STAB ones, with (Mega) Houndoom and Honchkrow being two of the tier's most notorious users (in spite of the former's Water weakness). Toxicroak also gets a worthwhile mention for easily luring Starmie in with its 4x Psychic weakness, and hitting hard with its own Sucker Punch.

    *Raikou and Ampharos are prominent Electric-types that can take anything bar a Life Orb Hydro Pump relatively well, and easily OHKO in return with Thunderbolt, however both must be wary. If Raikou runs a Rash nature to make use of Aura Sphere, it will be outrun by Starmie and 2HKOed by Hydro Pump, while Ampharos can play the mind game of whether or not it will mega evolve. Ampharos gains Dragon typing upon mega evolving, meaning it will subsequently resist Water and become weak to Ice. A well played Ampharos can easily take Starmie out, however this coin flip can go both ways.

    *Special walls like Florges and Snorlax don't like Psyshocks very much, but can take any other move easily, and they can bring Starmie down with attacks such as Body Slam and Pursuit in Snorlax's case, or a couple of STAB Moonblasts in Florges'. Virizion is also another fun choice if Starmie lacks Psyshock, as it can take anything else relatively well, and threaten with a STAB Leaf Blade/Giga Drain.

    *Volt Absorb Lanturn is a great answer, with bulky sets literally shutting Starmie down. Taking everything except Psyshock with ease, Lanturn can destroy the sea star with a STAB Thunderbolt.

    *Lastly, Starmie is easy prey for anything with a Choice Scarf and a super effective STAB. Krookodile is among one of the best mentions, due to its Ground typing baiting Starmie to stay in against it, effectively meaning a free Moxie boost.


    ...I think this one's done? Anything else worth mentioning? :3
     
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2014
  2. meeps

    meeps Well-Known Member

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    hi

    general:

    first line i wouldnt say rapid spin is "nerfed", more defog has become a more reliable way of removing hazards, rapid spin did not get worse in anyway

    it's fine otherwise

    actually mention abilities too maybe, even you have it covered in the other sections, not too necessary

    offensive:

    i really prefer analytic on starmie over natural cure, and i feel it should be the first slash, the extra power is appreciated when trying to take down spinblockers which may switch in and prevent starmie from spinning, hard to do multiple calcs on ipad right now but it's pretyy useful, would like to hear what other qc have to say

    mention surf set comments loss of damage sucks tho

    psyshock may also be slashed with ice beam as well, being a less significant coverage move than tbolt. hydro pump is a guarentee ko on flygon, and noivern has high chance to be ohkoed after rocks with psyshock (analytic guarentees ko on switch-in i think). may be missing out on tangrowth, but non ass vest variants are 2hkoed by hydro pump anyways (from analytic as least i think). o ya mega ampharos too

    defensive:

    not sure how necessary max speed is, may lose speed tie to mega doom azelf and raikou, but it wont do much to any of them other than mega houndoom, and still usually wont ko after rocks, maybe enough to outspeed virizon and cobalion could suffice, rest in spatk def or spdef i guess

    oo:

    pretty much covers everything

    c&c:

    dont mention water absorb quagsire no one uses that

    mega aboma is ok check, psyshock can be threatening though

    ass vest meloeeta is ok check too
     
  3. Finchinator

    Finchinator IT’S FINK DUMBASS

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    Hi, I hardly play LU this generation because I typically play UU and NU as my main lower tiers, but just wanted to attest to something @meepsvictory mentioned as it's generally been a trend ever since late generation five and I feel strongly about it,
    Analytic is amazing on Offensive Starmie (specifically the LO variant). This is due to the coverage it has and the general nature of the set; Starmie forces switches left and right as a byproduct of the aforementioned factors, thus activating Analytic and making Starmie insanely strong with the various special attacks that it uses. On the contrary, Natural Cure makes Starmie a temporary and inconsistent status absorber, that is very frail (it just forces mind games with sleepers and doesn't mind a burn or poison, regardless - making paralysis the only big issue, which isn't too common in LU). Furthermore, I believe that Analytic should either be the front slash, with decent emphasis put upon that, or the only slash. Thanks for listening and sorry for the otherwise irrelevant post.

    Edit: Cofag's the first thing in the C&C and it's 2hko'd by offensive hydro and Quagsire's later mentioned, but Unaware's much more common - otherwise, it looks fine

    Edit2: Reflect / Light Screen are legit options for the bulky variant and should get OO mentions, unless I'm missing it and they're already mentioned, I'd think it's worthy of being added onto the last point - thanks.
     
  4. VuvuzelaΒzz

    VuvuzelaΒzz •Sage

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    I don't have time to gives this an in-depth read right now, but in the future please refrain from posting analyses on Pokémon you have not reserved, or at the very least check the "Unreserved" and "Reserved" lists in the "LU Analyses Wanted" thread before writing something up.

    I'm assuming you won't know why I've decided to say this, so here.
     
  5. Spoovo The Pirate

    Spoovo The Pirate Meep! Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    Ahh yeah, completely forgot that Starmie could be moving up come May. ._.

    I had reserved it a while ago though, don't worry Voov.

    OK, things I gotta do:

    Analytic > Natural Cure on offensive. Remove Natural Cure completely?
    Psyshock backslash after Ice Beam on offensive
    Mega Obama and AV Meloetta in CC, remove Quaggy.

    Finch: I mentioned Cofag first in C+C pretty much solely because it stops Starmie's primary goal of removing Rocks. I can move it further down if you want? Also, both screens have a mention in OO. Want them moved up to a set comment on the bulky set?

    Meeps: I mostly called Rapid Spin nerfed because of how good Defog has become, but I can word that.

    Anyone got a better spread for the defensive set? I can definitely drop some Speed, but I just decided to max it for a cookie cutter spread, and have someone suggest a better one later lol.

    Or should I just abandon this completely, because of what Voov said?
     
  6. Afro Smash

    Afro Smash Mfw I'm living the Australian dream

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    I don't really think the Defensive set is very good in this meta tbh, but it can have the set. I'd say max HP, enough speed to creep Durant and rest thrown in Sp Def/Def. I'd only slash Psyshock and Ice Beam in the final slot, as T-Bolt when uninvested cant really deal enough damage to the Bulky water types in this tier.

    On offensive yes Analytic should be the only Ability used, as it allows Starmie to deal huge damage to incoming Spin Blockers and allows it to do shit like 2HKO AV Escavalier after SR. Hydro is definitely the preferred option since Surf is kinda weak without the Analytic boost, but yh deserves the slash. I'd slash Psyshock with Thunderbolt as well as Rapid Spin, as it can viably be used over either move.

    Some of the C/C needs changing, but ill look into that later.

    Don't abandon it, even if Starmie moves up just keep this thread locked until/if drops again
     
  7. Spoovo The Pirate

    Spoovo The Pirate Meep! Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    Durant makes sense. There aren't any prominent base 110s in LU that I can think of, and the only notable one - Froslass - would probably beat defensive Starmie one on one anyways lol.

    So... slash Psyshock with Ice Beam or Thunderbolt on the first set? I'm getting conflicting responses lol.
     
  8. Afro Smash

    Afro Smash Mfw I'm living the Australian dream

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    I'd say T-Bolt, since Water/Ice coverage is too good to give up imo.
     
  9. Spoovo The Pirate

    Spoovo The Pirate Meep! Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    So yeah, what needs doing on here?
     
  10. VuvuzelaΒzz

    VuvuzelaΒzz •Sage

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    I'm locking this for now, as Starmie would have to drop approximately 0.426% in ranked usage over 4 days to end up in LU next cycle. If and when it drops back down, I will unlock this thread and post whatever suggestions I have at that time to bump it.
     
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